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Comments
Floridian
That says it all.
Just a little side item. I have two close realitives that work for GM. One in Ohio and one in Flint Mi. They have NO GM vehicles in their families. I wonder why LOL !!
Floridian
As I know, and others as well, you were unhappy with your Saturn and expressed it here. I for one will miss the S Series name badge, but the small line of Saturn cars will go on with the name "ION"
The name "ION" is said to represent innovation, cutting edge, etc, and can be further reviewed at www.saturnfans.com
Got my daughter a 2002 SL2 in August. I hated the standard Firestone Affinities and researched replacements. I noted that the optional SL2 wheels/tires and those on the SC2 are 195/60/15. I asked the local service manager if there would be any problem swapping and was told "no". The Saturn customer Tech folks said "maybe but not likely". I know that the slightly different size will put the odo and speedo off some but my main concern was the traction control/ABS - I know fit is not an issue even with the standard steel wheels.
I have a hard time believing that Saturn does anything to the SL2 when folks order the alloy wheels and get the larger tires - could they possibly adjust some computer chip to modify the odo/speedo or is this an analog connection - my guess is analog/mechanical? I think the ABS/Traction control should be fine as well.
Anyone know or have an opinion ? The new rubber makes quit a difference so I hope I did not make a mistake.
Thanks for any help
Mike
tojrease, re your 10 year old rims - recycle/toss those puppies. They have served their useful life.
General Motors is now in the top three (according to reports) behind Toyota and Honda in inital quality passing Nissan while VW and BMW fell miserably. The article link can be found below...
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2001-10-17-gm-quality.htm
Also, I recently took my car to my local Saturn retailer for a routine 6,000 mile service. Upon receiving my car back, I found a considerable amount of lubrication on the right front fender and a small spot of oil on the hood. I have never had anything like this happen before so of course I was not happy. I immediately made my disappointment about what happened clear to the sales manager - who then contacted the service manager. In a nutshell, Saturn came through for me with an 1. Extensive apology, 2. A wash, wax, and full detail of my car for what happened, 3. A free loaner car, 4. my choice of loaner car, a L 300 midsize sedan- thats what I call the Saturn difference, making things right with the customer.
As for the exterior, the most shocking thing to me was that the lines and lines of SL-cars all next to each other had their driver's doors aligned differently... up top where they met the roof panel.... every one was different. On some, the door stripping overlapped the roof panel, on others it was 1/2" recessed... all different.
The drive was not bad actually... it was noisey (most small cars are) but the wind noise at the a-pillars was pretty bad at only 40mph. Worse yet was that on the SL2 and SL1 I drove, no matter how high I set the heat, there was a cold blast of air hitting my left foot and arm.... the arm air from the door release area and the let from the area where the door meets the front Fender.
Now, my experience in an L200 was FAR better, let me tell you... THAT car has improved since the 2000 models for sure.... but I had a kia sephia for a rental once last year and it was light years ahead of the current SL models and I'm very disappointed because I wanted to go american and get that good saturn service and the low interest.
The Civic? have to get EX to get antilock brakes and while the build quality seems good, it was louder than the Saturn and the seats just as uncomfortable. The protege ES was a great car to drive honestly. But here's the shocker.... the overall BEST vehicle I've tested so far was the 2002 Hyundai elantra (GT in particular). I couldn't believe it... EVERY panel lined up PERFECTLY.... the engine was QUITE powerfull, the AT flawless, the interior looked FAR more expensive than anything else I sat in, it was a hatchback (great for lugging the bikes around) and was the most fun (after the Mazda) to drive. The warrantly is unbeatable... but the only thing holding me back is the lack of low financing and resale down the road. I mean, for 16G REATAL in the hyundai, you get 4-wheel discs, quiet tight interior, yadda yadda yadda
I'm just so upset because I REALLY wanted a saturn..... the service, the resale, the low interest, the low insurance rates.... seems unbeatable until you actually drive the S-series and that just made me say "I just CANT live with this car for two years!"
As to your comments as to the build quality on the S Series- it is nothing we don't already know, and its nothing Saturn doesn't already know... This is the last year of production for the S Series, it's brand new replacement from the ground up is said to hit showrooms by this time next year...
The S Series does have build quality issues such as loose fitting interior pieces, and door panels with gaps that may seem un even. However, the general reliability of the S Series is still rated average, and in many cases, above average by www.jdpower.com or www.consumerreports.com
The L Series is definitly worth a look, no matter what you choose, your going to have to give up something.. As far as hyundai goes- while they offer good value- resale is horrible, and many people would still view you as "cheap" if you bought one... Good luck in your search for the "perfect" fit, but I don't think their is one...
Run as fast as you can to that Hyundai dealer and get that Elantra GT. Those cars are the best kept secret in the industry, a raging bargain and value for what they cost. As to resale, well so what if you plan to keep the car for a long time resale is not of much concern anyway. I bought a 2001 Tiburon and everything you said about the Elantra goes double for the "Tibby", especially the "fun to drive factor" and I say this with a Porsche Boxster sitting out in the garage !! For $15/16K these cars CANNOT be beat. My Tiburon now has almost 10K on it (I drive 1K a week)not a single complaint,tight as a drum (love that thud those doors make when you shut'em)and the ONLY car I have puchased recently that was delivered in PERFECT condition (that includes the Porsche too, but that's another costly story)so go for it . you won't be sorry.
Floridian
Now, Ford is in the game by offering the Focus with a 100,000 mile warranty, and Chrysler announced a 100,000 mile warranty on all its vehicles. A recent news article stated that GM is now considering instituting a 100,000 mile warranty for all vehicles in its Saturn division. I will attempt to post the link soon... This sounds very promising...
By the way, even as crappy as the build quality of the SC2 was it never spent one second in the shop for anything warranty related plus we do all our own routine maintenance.
Floridian
Floridian
Korean cars are not something I would personally drive at this time.
I don't know how well the Tiberon holds up but..
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0103.htm
Floridian
I find it apalling that supposed anti saturn bashers (who claim they don't hate the car/company) can poo-poo anything that most of the normal buying public would consider a plus.
Also, Since floridian seems to side with Hyundai because of America's supposed "best warranty plan" (not true, IZUZU has 120,000 miles) there is obviously a double standard. I don't see how someone can believe in a warranty offered by a car company who employs underage minors who make peanuts to throw together a korean car, and on the same token dislike a warranty backed by GM, the number one automaker.
Yes, IZUZU does have a 120,000K powertrain warranty but as far as I know no roadside assist for 5 years, unlimited mileage like Hyundai. Plus IZUZU I don't believe is making any passenger vehicles for sale here in the US, only trucks and one ? SUV so their sales count is minimal @ best.
Comments ?? Bring 'em on
Floridian
How-about-that !!!
Floridian
As for Isuzu, yes, they have 10 year/120K powertrain warranty, but their bumper/bumper coverage is only 3 years/36K and they offer no roadside assistance. In other words, their warranty plan is far below Hyundai's.
Take on babywolf and his weak arguments. Ignor the offset crash test results....
Floridian
1) car only left me stranded once in 85K miles ( bad battery ).
2) Only needed brake pads once, but warped rotors twice.
3) Did go through 1 quart of oil every 1,500 miles or so despite my always using mobil 1.
4) Needed no significant repairs out of warranty.
5) Reccommended service was relatively cheap, even at the dealer.
6) Car loosened up, and was pretty noisy on the highway, and interior bits rattled more than they should have.
All in all, it was great as a point A to point B low cost vehicle, and it has good safety, although gladly i never had to use it. I think it handles pretty well for it's price point. In '96 i think it was at the head of its class. It's not been improved since then, so if i were getting a car in that category now, i'd probably get a golf, but that's not saying the saturn sucks by any means.
dave
When the Saturn first came out it was top of the class in various areas. When the Excell first came out it was an acknowledge pile of crap. A disposable car to be sure.
The rest of your post was not as compelling...
Lets cover the basics - you said..."Check out the Elantra forum and you will see just how happy people are with their new Hyundais"
How happy are the people with their new Saturns? How happy are any people with any new car they just bought? Totally irrelevant to the statement "who in their right mind would buy a Hynudi". How happy they are is not an indication of making a wise buying decision.
Your point that Edmunds "praises" their Elantra and that the GX350 was ranked fourth by car and driver does not make the Korean car a wise buy either.
Long term reliablity is certainly up for debate - and it will be many years before we can determine how reliable the current crop of Korean cars will ultimately be. Personally there are two major reasons why I personally agree that no one in their right mind would purchase an Elantra at this time.
First - resale value. Unless you plan on keeping this car for a long long time you must consider how horrible the resale value is.
Second -
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0103.htm
In other news, Saturn is hiring 200 more workers in an effort to build more Saturn SUV's, due out in a month or so... Starting under 17k. It has received very positive reveiws, but I didn't expect anything less.
As for your try at safety, why don't we bring the whole picture into view? NHTSA frontal test: Elantra 4 stars driver/ 5 stars passenger; Saturn SL 5 stars/ 5 stars, Saturn L 4 stars/ 5 stars. NHTSA side impact: Elantra 5 stars front/ 4 stars rear; Saturn SL 3 stars/ 2 stars, Saturn L 2 stars/ 4 stars. Clearly, the Elantra holds its own in the NHTSA tests, showing superior side-impact protection. IIHS offset: Elantra's structure rated good, both Saturns are rated acceptable here. The Elantra did well in the offset impact (especially the structural performance and survival space) and would be rated acceptable or good overall if it wasn't for the late deploying airbag. Hyundai isn't the first with airbag sensor problems. Volvo has had this problem as has Infiniti; does that mean these cars should be labeled "no one in their right mind would purchase them"? And what about the fact that the 2nd gen Elantra had the exact same performance in the offset test as the Saturn? I'm sorry but I see some clearly biased opinions here that don't know how to look at all the facts.
I also take issue with your statement that Saturn was tops in multiple areas when they first came out. Wrong! Saturn was average in all aspects, except service and dent resistance. They were known to be loud, unrefined, sloppily put together cars that had decent acceleration in twin cam trim only, good fuel economy, uncomfortable seats, and a cheap looking interior. Since than, they have become more refined and their engines are finally acceptable noise-wise, but they still have issues with build quality and cheap interior plastics and their refinement levels simply can't keep up with the rest of the class. With these facts in mind, I see no legitimate reason for people thinking Saturn is so much better then Hyundai unless they are just blinded by brand loyalty.
Oh, and as for resale value, it's not as much of a problem as you think. Sure, Hyundai has lower resale value, but you pay a heck of a lot less upfront so it all evens out. Funny thing is someone tried to prove how much better Toyota was in resale and it ended up backfiring. In a comparison between the Accent, Rio, and Echo, the Accent ended up showing the least amount of money lost after 5 years of ownership, even though it had the lowest resale factor. The Echo's higher price offset its advantage in resale. The same would be true in a comparison between Saturn and the Elantra.
Since I don't have the time to post a long reply I have only one question to ask you Igntounge.
If one of the Edmunds editors was killed in a severe frontal impact due to a late deploying airbag how do you think they would feel about the car?
Or to put it a different way ...
Do you think it is a wise decision to purchase a car with a known and potential life threatening problem?
If this is the criteria for labeling a particular series vehicle unacceptable then I guess ALL of the mfgs. are in trouble. Just ask my niece who was badly injured in a head-on collision (she was stopped @ a traffic light and not moving)in her brand new Dodge Ram. Air bag did not deploy & she was bounced around pretty badly. The guy that hit her was driving a new Camry and it too failed to deploy the airbag. He lived two days and died from serious head injuries. Just the luck of the draw I guess.
Floridian
Look don't get me wrong. I am glad to see Hundy doing much better than before. Why? It increases competition which in the long run will mean I will be able to purchase a better safer small car for less!
Would I personally buy an Elantra at this time? No. I would tell any friends and family to avoid them as well. In a year that opinion may change.
BTW at this point I'm not a big fan of purchasing a new S series car either, but they make a GREAT used car buy.
Have a nice Thanksgiving, Y'all !!
Floridian
So why the heck do we now keep seeing NON Saturn owners coming back to complain in some cases over a car they haven't owned in years? Why is it that in the eyes of Hyundai lovers here that just because Hyundai produced garbadge years ago, doesn't mean they do now, and hyundai produces great cars. But by those same people, Saturn will never improve...
Again, double standards exist here. Also, our lovely host pat, would very quickly kick someone out in the hyundai room, who was bashing hyundai repeatedly, but allows this type of slander to continue day, after day.
I simply would not buy one myself nor would I advise people to purchase one at this time.
They are not proven to be reliable over time. They obviouly have made tremendous strides since day one. In a couple years we will know how well the current generation does. Too early to tell and based upon the past track reccord I wouldn't take the risk nor would I advise others too.
They are not a safe vehicle at this time. Late airbag deployment is not such a simple matter as hitting your head on the steering wheel! Thats why the insurance institutes off set test is a much better measure of real world crashes. I agree that the structure of the Korean car is good. The tests prove that. That doesn't make them safe - because if the passengers movements are not controlled you can and often will have a serious injury due to the backlash. Your head hitting the steering wheel isn't going to be a big problem. Its designed to absorb energy. Its when your head snaps back and smacks the B pillar that you have a problem. The seat also came loose in one of the offset tests. This is NOT accpetable and one reason why the Hundi gets the worst (poor) rating.
Look if you want to tell your friends to go buy a Hundi than great! I'm just not going to tell MY friends and family that.
By the way - before you go and reccomend people to buy a Hundi go and check this out.
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/ictl_4dr.htm
Notice how poorly the Hundi does across the board. In a couple of years - this could all change. I hope it does.
A couple other options exist for those wanting to continue in this vein - we have a discussion focused on the Hyundai Elantra (as well as other Hyundai models), and anyone who would like to do so is welcome to start up a comparison topic between any vehicles over on our Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans Board.
So let's get back to the S-Series Saturns, okay?
Thanks.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Folks, unlike what afk_x would have you believe, hitting your head on the steering wheel can cause some serious injuries. Forces on the head from hitting the steering wheel hard through the late deploying airbag is the main reason why the IIHS gave the Elantra a poor rating. Not because of whiplash. This same injury would have occured on any car without an airbag, as shown by european crash tests of cars in which airbags are still optional. And yet, none of these cars are considered a deathtrap on wheels and people certainly weren't told not to buy them. I have to ask you, afk_x, what was the last car you owned without airbags? Did you feel you were driving a deathtrap? Probably not, since you bought the car. So, I find it odd you would claim people who buy cars with these safety issues are basically stupid, because wouldn't that have made you stupid for buying a car back than with the same issues? But wait, maybe safety wasn't your only consideration for buying the car! Safety should be an important consideration but it should not be used as the only reason to buy a car. Lastly, the fact that 3 different tests produced 3 different results should prove how relatively unreliable these tests are as far as measurements are concerned. Every accident is different, and as such, the IIHS's tests should not be used as a one-all decision to deem any car unsafe. Again, this has nothing to do with Hyundai. I'm only using it as an example since it was brought into this. I could use many other examples if need be.
I was just pointing out the obvious again, and would like to get back to talking about Saturn's, preferably Saturn strenths, not hyundai. After all, this isn't a hyundai chat room. As pat pointed out, there is a room for those to discuss hyundai, it should be used.
Which makes me wonder why you would say this..
"Lastly, the fact that 3 different tests produced 3 different results should prove how relatively unreliable these tests are as far as measurements are concerned"
Just go away if you are going to say such things...
How much did you get the SL1 for> ? I am thinking of buying a first generation Saturn as an "around town" car in addition to my 2001 SL1. I have my eye on a 1994 SW2 Wagon for 1000.00 with 150k, may go for it...