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Comments
Wonder if our experiences count?
While I also agree that, compared to anecdotal reports, each based on a sample of one car, CR and JDP appear to have a collection of potentially useful data, I'm not always sure they have collected, analyzed, and reported that data entirely in the best interest of consumers -- but perhaps also in ways designed to over-hype their own importance, since they are selling a product called research.
CR wants me to buy a BMW 5-series rather than an Audi A6, but I like looking at, sitting in, and driving the A6 better.
I agree. We as forum posters have simple personal experiences to relay to each other. That is one thing. Another thing is publishing a single car experience as an implied reliability report for a car, which is what the auto mags seems to be doing...
I like haven't ever really liked CR's circle data points. Why can't they just give hard numbers? I'd like to know that there have been X number of service visits per 1000 person replies, or something like that.
I agree, I don't like CR's best buy car pics. They are never anything but boring and too practical for me.
And even that is useless to a point. Let’s say boring car X has 101 problems per 100 vehicles and the Audi has 106 (2005 JD initial quality) you still have a good chance of taking your car to the dealer and have some warranty work done even Lexus at 81 problems per 100 vehicles will still require the odd warranty work.
Even with VW at a high 147 big deal if you’re going to go to the dealer anyway might as well tell them to fix this AND that.
As long as the dealer is competent and offers loaners and the vehicles problems don’t leave you stranded, I say go for the car you want.
Looking back (mea maxima culpa) I believe the initial influences on my decision were not only CR (and it was much more that 90+ percent of current owners were reported to have said they'd buy the car again, than it was "predicted reliability") but also a review in USA Today, in which the reviewer essentially said this was the LPS all the others were trying to be. That, and an over-involvement (naively encouraged by me as benign, I have to say) by other family members. Also, working against Audi was a mediocre experience with the local VW/Audi dealership service department during the two years a new 1999 Passat was under warranty.
Nonetheless, I overrode my "I want this car" after I drove a 3.2 S-Line, neither just saying "ok, lets negotiate, nor "let's sit down and order me a 2007 4.2 S-Line" -- either of which I could have done right then. So, you know, in college in fell heavy for Kierkegaard's notion that responsibility (for individual choice) cannot be sloughed off onto so-called objective determinants. The feeling I got when I drove each car I test-drove was me telling me all I had to say to myself about what I wanted. I ignored that subjective truth.
Now, Kierkegaard also famously said that life is best understood backwards but must be lived forwards anyway. So, I'm trying to conjure up options.
For example, Strategic Vision (SV) has been rating consumer enthusiasm about products in many markets for about a decade. They're method is not one of problem-counting. Rather they try to measure (as social psychologists have long done) qualities and attitudes: satisfaction with complete ownership experience; perception of quality; emotional attachment to vehicle. The A6 finished last in their "Luxury Cars" category, when SV asked 29,000 buyers (who bought 2006 models in October and November of 2005) how they felt about their purchases, with regard to the three factors I just listed. The top five were: BMW 7-Series (928, out of a possible 1000 points); Infiniti M35/M45 (908); Mercedes-Benz CLS-Class Sedan (908); Jaguar XJ (905); and the BMW 5-Series Sedan (904). Audi was last of ten cars with a score of 893.
Would anyone want to hazard a guess/theory about why a community of owners who (if this forum is any indication) are very enthusiastic about their Audi A6s, not convey that excitement in a different-from-CR type of survey?
Whoop-de-do. If the best were 98.5% and the worst 54%, I think we'd all have more to talk about.
This is akin to the magazine & TV ads that show bar charts illustrating some factor or other, where 95% of the chart is truncated. How many people notice that? I'm guessing, not many.
"The correlations derived from this complex procedure are transformed into a 1000 point scale to facilitate comparisons. The scores typically range from 750 to 900. Generally, scores over 800 are terrific, although in some segments a score in the low 800's is not very competitive."
That is in line with your take, with the implication that all the LPS cars are experienced by people who have bought them as "terrific," but statistically, some of these cars appear to generate more "wow" feelings than others. The other comment I found on the SV website speaks to that:
"Typically, differences of 3-5 points in this scoring system are significant depending on the nature of the sample, i.e., variation, differences in factor scores, etc."
With regard to that, the 15 point difference between the M35 and the A6 would seem significant statistically (assuming those tail-end qualifying comments about "depending on the nature of the sample" don't play a big role in this particular sample), but, I'm still inclined to say, they don't matter as much if, as you intuited (good catch!), all those differences equate to are degrees of "terrific-ness" -- a factor which probably shouldn't over-ride "I like that one best".
So, perhaps, the SV survey, after all, reveals the opposite of what I first thought it did -- Audi owners (along with all the other LPS car owners) said "yes, my car is terrific."
Finally, the worst evaluation available for many of the questions on the SV survey was "complete failure". People who buy luxury cars and then rate their choice as a complete failure should be very few.
Best part of the survey was the promise to enter me in a drawing for $30,000 if I sent the survey back, rather than sending me one dollar with the survey. When I win, it won't pay off the Avant completely, but it will help. That will be DELIGHTFUL.
Of course I also like to look at it like this:
Car Buyers are sitting ducks.
But the problems dealers face are certainly not entirely of their own making. We customers demand ever lower prices and ever higher services -- that we seem unwilling to pay for. We buy our cars off the Internet, then we wonder why we have virtually no one to turn to at the dealership when something goes bump.
It reminds me so much of Home Theater and the mom and pop home theater store it is frightening. My high end home theater retailer does discount, but no where near the discounts of some of the mass marketers. But much of what the specialty store sells is not sold at the big box stores. So the mom and pop place sells at discount some of the same stuff and "hopes to make it up in volume."
Seriously, the mom and pop store sets everything up, programs the remotes, balances the speakers with an SPL and calibrates the new HD TV. The Big Buy box store delivers the product and asks to be paid to have skippy the wonder installer come out and give your new TV, speakers and receiver the lick and a promise set up.
Everything is a la carte -- yet car and home theater buyers, perhaps for the reason that the purchases are usually 5 figure affairs, think that the Service is "included" in the price. The dealer has ever lower margins.
My car salesperson, I'll call him Bob (not his real name), has been with the Audi store for, OH, I'd say, 80 years and I know him and his wife, well. He shares that the commission on an Audi A4, A6, or A8 (or even Porsche) are very close to each other these days. The big ticket commission of yesteryear has been replaced with a smaller commission -- although there are spiffs to sell that $128,000 A8 W12 -- they are rarely earned during the incentive period.
I remember when my car dealer was a consultant there to help me configure my order and educate me about the product. 3/4ths of all Audis USED to be ordered, now it is perhaps 1/5th (and that is probably optimistic.) People don't want to wait for their cars to come in, at most they will pick up the car "this weekend." The customer's expectations have changed, apparently, even for high end LPS cars.
I cannot imagine NOT ordering one of these cars -- yet it seems that I am in a shrinking minority of folks.
The customer wants to "pay invoice," get attractive lease or financing rates and essentially expects quantum levels of time (post sale) be made available to him even though the dealer has slimmer margins and the sales reps lower commissions and often no holdbacks these days.
We have met the enemy and it is us?
Now, don't get me wrong, I have little sympathy for car dealers -- I know of very few of them that are not "fat dumb and happy" even with the difficulties facing some of the auto manufacturers.
But, the Internet is threat to them -- AND to high customer sat -- at least it can be.
The Internet, the "new economy" is "deconstructing" industries such as auto retailing while creating new opportunities for others. In Blown to Bits it is asserted that the "glue that holds today's value chains and supply chains together" is melting, and that even "the most stable of industries, the most focused of business models and the strongest of brands can be blown to bits by new information technology."
Car Dealers, so they say, are sitting ducks.
We customers are not without blame, too.
The Audi Advantage and the BMW 4/50 full maintenance plans were ways to overcome some of the resistance to repurchasing -- resistance that, in part, comes from the "dole" of money for maintenance, even if intervals are 10 to 15,000 miles.
Audi still baffles me by dropping the program -- for when oil changes cost $100 there is just something that rubs most folks the wrong way. Free is, of course, not really free -- but it feels so much better to get the oil and filter changed, the new wiper blades and all the rest and have the invoice read, $0.00 amount due.
We're all sitting ducks, perhaps.
I have nuttin' but love for my Audi dealer -- so it is hard to relate to the bad dealer experience comments. I would think that both the dealer (largely) and the customer (a little bit) have some responsibility in creating the climate that I assume must be out there between customers and dealers.
I do not assume my dealer is out to screw up or screw me.
I do not assume my dealer is perfect.
I do assume my dealer ought to make a profit -- just not all of his profit on my deal.
I wonder when I read these love stories about Lexus how the great experiences are funded -- Oh wait a minute, now I remember.
I know, we can argue that he's spent many more hours showing the car to people that don't buy the car, but why should I pay for them? You can also throw in the cost of the dealership and inventory expenses, but why should I pay for that based on my 2 hours of use of the dealerships time? I don't know of any other industry (except maybe real estate) in which the commissions are so good for so little investment of time on an individual basis.
I'd like it if the whole scheme of selling cars were revamped. Its so old school with the manager, salesmen, financial person, negotiations, etc... My dream would be to have no dealerships per se but instead places where we go and can test drive a car for a fee. Maybe even a place where they have some driver's courses to test the capabilities of the car in cornering and accelerating and stopping. They could specialize in a particular make, or type of car, or be general in autos offered.
We could then purchase autos directly from the manufacturer and do away with the middleman. (kind of like buying a Dell computer...check it out at the kiosk but buy it online for delivery)
Or maybe just leave everything as it is...
And, there seems to be a trend that the rep gets capped.
If a rep sells ten cars per month, he may get $10,000. It is increasingly likely it will be more like $5000. Selling 10 cars per month is about 1 every other day.
I am not suggesting you should pay more than a fair price.
And, if you spent one hour with the guy, perhaps he added very little value.
I could give a rip if every traditional car dealership disappeared tomorrow. I've bought more than one car without having driven it (ordered a configuration not stocked), and I keep them long & drive them hard. I use independent repair shops (or do self-maintenance) & try to acquire vehicles that don't require monthly warranty work. Yeah, I know. . .I'm. . .different.
In (my) perfect world, buying a car would be much like buying a Dell computer -- choose the options you want on-line & get the thing in 10 days or fewer (color, interior, engine, suspension, everything just as you want), delivered at a company-owned facility that only needs to provide test-drives & delivery, provided by salaried "professionals" (as if there were such a thing in this business).
I've had it explained to me on other Edmunds boards (since shut down) that the vast majority of people acquiring (includes leasing) cars can't really afford them &/or don't know what they want. They need to be provided with upside-down financing and otherwise made to feel that they're worthy. (disclosure -- I've eaten two chocolate-chip cookies at my local Lincoln {God's waiting room} dealership)
Include me out.
That said, I'm willing to posit that one or more manufacturers will adopt this model. Want to guess who'll be first? Want to bet whether it'll work?
It certaintly won't in the cheapy-chugger market (that'd be most of it), but in the land of people who know what they want and don't want to waste time or money?. . .
( sigh )
I suppose + 2 from 2006 is OK.
- Ray
Hoping for a larger 'bump' in highway MPG . .
Although I understand your point, the roughly $10k premium for the Audi 4.2 takes away from the theoretical "gas money" comparison with the Infiniti (not Infinity) M35.
My friend's 4.2 gets considerably less than the EPA figures, FWIW.
Yes, you're right, my point was not that the A6 4.2 is a bargain car, just that, from a hp-per-mpg perspective, you could (if you are lusting after the 4.2) sort of console yourself with the knowledge that you're getting a lot more horsepower than some engines give back for each gallon you feed the 4.2
As for EPA versus reality, I (and a couple of other M35 owners with whom I've struck up conversations) are getting about 17 mpg in mixed city/highway driving (even when it's less city and more highway) -- from our (EPA) 18/25 cars.
Wow, that's low. I'm getting about 23mpg in mixed driving, but my car (over a year old) is of course broken in. I guess whatever the car, if you're a lead foot your mpg suffers.
You're driving the A6 3.2?
It could be that my car is just through the 1200 mile break-in period. I filled up this morning and had gotten an even 18 mpg on the last tank.
As for "lead foot," well that's a bit of an inferential leap for you to have made. Actually, seeing the low mpg, I've been somewhat preoccupied with keeping a light touch.
If you look at the consumer reviews of the M35s on Edmunds, the most frequent comment under the "cons" of "pros and cons" is "needs better mpg." The 5-speed transmission is clearly geared to produce maximium acceleration for the Nissan V-6 and not so much a balance of power and mpg.
I have an M35 sport.
Anyway, I agree with the comment that the M should have better gas mileage, but I expect yours will improve.
The first change I would attribute to break in comes around 5,000 miles. At that mileage, the power of the car seems to improve as does the "coasting" ability.
Now, I say this with over two dozen Audis, since 1977 -- virtually all of them do this. We have had the 4's, the 5's, the 6's, the turbo 4's, 5's and 6's and three 4.2 8's.
The current 3.2 V6 is as close to the V8 feel and sound as I could've hoped for. It is buttery smooth and has, from time to time exceeded 30MPG on the highway, at high speed, in the Summer between Cincinnati and Pittsburgh.
Then something interesting happens at 10,000 miles -- the power and mileage improve again. And the coasting ability gets so good, it is as if you reach 65MPH and take your foot off the gas and you need to verify that your cruise control isn't on, 'cause it just keeps coasting as if you are going down hill in neutral.
15,000 miles pass without much drama but perhaps the mileage ever so slightly improves. Then 20,000 miles comes along and you know the computer has been preprogrammed to give the last measure of torque to the engine (why not allow this from 5,000 miles?, it makes me wonder.)
The miles to empty on fill ups routinely exceeds 600.
In day in day out driving, it exceeds 500.
These, BTW, are the trip computer's readings -- I have not personally verified this.
Now, I can drive the mileage down, by using the tip shift and by forcing the engine to remain in 5th gear and by "playing" with the tranny in "S" mode.
Overall, I assume that with a bit more aluminum, a 7 speed transmission and the 3.0TDI that my mileage would easily exceed 36 (and I'd get a tax credit and 0-60 acceleration times of 6.9 seconds (a not insignificant pick up of .2 seconds all the while using cheaper fuel that goes 20% farther).)
Now, in the spirit of full disclosure, we ONLY have 93 octane here in Cincinnati and I keep my front tires @ 38pounds and the rears at 35 (18").
A plan for European delivery is under consideration, but no decision has been announced as yet. For the question of future TDI models in North America, an announcement may be made by the end of this calendar year.
Again, thank you for writing. If we can help in any other way please let us know.
Marjorie
AudiTalk
As for diesels, the Audis that I've driven in Europe have all been diesel -- if I ever bought an Audi, it would be a diesel. At the moment, the only European diesel automobiles sold in North America that I'm aware of are the VW beetle & Jetta. Oh, and the Jetta avant (available with a diesel everywhere else on earth) isn't available.
If Audi brought diesels here first (lux or near-lux), it could be something that differentiates the brand, much as AWD once did.
Sounds like we shouldn't hold our breath for any of this.
I suspect the MY will be '08 or '09.
In the latest J.D. Power & Associates customer satisfaction survey for Germany, Audi was one of the biggest gainers in 2006, tying with BMW and rated No. 7, the highest-ranking non-Japanese brand in the survey, which was led for the fifth year running by Toyota.
The annual J.D. Power report, released July 5, shows Audi made big gains in vehicle quality and customer service, and scored high in vehicle appeal.
In the 2006 reader survey by German magazine Auto Motor & Sport, Audi swept the rankings, overtaking both BMW and Mercedes for best car in the compact [A3), executive sedan [A6], and luxury sedan [A8] categories. "Audi has had to overachieve," to win its place in the premium market says Karl Ludvigsen, president of Euromotor Consultants in North Hampton, U.K.
It's not just in Germany where Audi is on the upswing. In J.D. Power's 2006 French survey, BMW and Audi scored higher than they did among German owners, ranking No. 2 and No. 5 respectively, with Honda (HMC) taking first place. The annual survey measures cars on quality and reliability, vehicle appeal, service satisfaction, and ownership costs.
This car (other than a slight stone crack on the windshield) has not aged one bit other than for what I would consider normal wear on the tires.
With as many cars, Audis in particular that we have had, this car seems to somehow have resisted aging. It seems tight, it actually has a stronger engine feel and everything works.
Now, the question "will I keep it?" Financially, it rarely seems to work. If my $640ish payment (which at the moment includes full maintenance and 100% warranty) could continue, and the same $640 would not buy an acceptable newer (2008?) replacement, well, "maybe."
The point remains -- this car is screwed together very well.
I only wish it had an in-dash CD and that I could've ordered UHP A/S tires (and what the heck, I still have a mild regret that I didn't equip it with the sport suspension, but I'm almost over that -- almost.) :surprise:
If the new model, say, the 2008, had the 40/60 front/rear power split (instead of the current 50/50 traditional quattro split) would that influence you?
Charlie
"Why you'd buy it:: Contrary to public perception, Audi makes better quality cars than BMW and Benz and has done so for about the past five years. The trouble is (the Why you might not buy it is) that "these new and improved Audis are still paying for the sins of Audis of old, which were not as well built. Car valuers hit Audis unfairly hard because the public and the industry are stuck in a time warp."
Of course, the starter switch problem reported by the woman on the Audi problems forum -- and that same problem being emphasized in the Automobile magazine long term test report -- tends to keep the wariness about Audi alive in the collective consciousness of potential buyers. It did for me, as some of you know (ad nauseum).
Whoa! Here is what I mean.
I would rather have 40 60 f/r than 50 50 f/r in an ideal world.
But, but, but:
The torsen system is "instantaneous." I don't "need" the rear bias on a normal sub 8/10th's driving regimine.
Keep the thing at 50 50 for all I care -- here is what I would want were I granted but ONE wish.
50 50 f/r WEIGHT balance and keep the 50 50 f/r torque split -- "I'll get by, just fine."
If I had a magic wand:
50 50 f/r weight balance
40 60 f/r torque split
dual diagonal shocks (like are on the RS4 and the previous RS6)
a 7 speed "DSG" transmission
a turbo charged diesel engine (4.2TDI) with all the clean burn stuff known to automotive engineering.
I don't want much, I know.
Thanks.
Hootie and the Bl
The Long and Windi
My portable sirius receiver and other cars I have been in with Sirius have scrolled left to right. Is this a quirk with my install or is this the way it is with Audi and Sirius?
Thanks
I agree, scrolling would be a simple thing to have for such a complex and expensive car, but these autos still seem about 5 years behind the technology curve (no MP3, USB jack, etc...).
My rear brakes needed pads last month. They fixed, but now rear rotors are warped. I told them.
Scheduled another appt. they said they can't cut them, and its within acceptable tolerence. I guess they don't want to do the work on a car about to get turned in and about to go off warranty?
Numerous lack of attention to details like not doing things they suppose to and having to prove that work was not done!
Funny, the only letter I get is the instructions on how to turn it in. NO loyatly offer, no call from salesmen or dealer to inquire my intentions.
The dealership changed hands about 18 months ago and has gone to hell. The manager is now at BMW down the street.
Guess where I have been hanging out?
Why? He knows how to run a dealership and you can get a manual transmission on every car except a 7 series and the new X5 coming in November.
I loved my Allroad experience and loved the car. I love the Audi car and its place in the market. I love the look and the drive of the new A6.
But, this dealership and its staff is awful and the lack of any incentives really is baffleing.
I understand profitablity needed to increase both at Audi and its dealership network, but this is crazy.
Giving up the free maintenance thing is stupid (nothing is free but built into the price) and besides they seem to me to not really want to do it anyway.
Im glad they are doing so well they don't need another customer.
The other couples claimed their service was poor and the people were arrogant.
My Audi dealer, too, although NOT up to the Bimmer experience here in River City, is wonderful, almost a JOY to work with.
My Bimmer dealer is owned by A person, not A corporation. We actually talk to "Tom" when we need to have something taken care of, not "the next person" who answers the phone.
Makes all the difference.
Audi is having record sales every year for the last six years, and has a goal by 2012 or so to be on par with BMW and selling 1.2 to 1.3 million cars in the US every year.
To consider where Audi was just a decade ago, they've had one of the biggest and most successful comebacks of any car company in recent memory.
But value is important and I won't over pay for an audi or any other vehicle.
I guess they so successful they don't need to lease ms another? Im an easy customer. Buy new cars and keep them under warranty. IT breaks fix it. Don't have the part, Let me keep the Loaner.
My dealer is stupid at times and it takes thema day or two longer. Ok, Im gonna drive their car. No biggie.
I get mailers from other car companies all the time with coupons with incentives. Incentives are not going to sway me alone unless its a car im interested in.
Funny, The new BMW 335 and 328 coupe are brand new and very hot. Also to launch it BMW is giving incentives on the lease! Thats crazy, but its a feeding frenzy to get one! Audi tries to such the life out of its customer if you want a new model.
Like I said, I guess its working for them.
Love the cars, just not getting any love back.
I got a spare car I can drive for 6 mos until I give it to my son.
I can shop it and see what the market bares.
The 5 figure number is a NORTH AMERICA number.
Audi does not currently sell even 10,000 cars per month in NA -- getting to over one million cars in NA isn't even a goal.
The 7 figure numbers are for the whole pea pickin' world.
Either way...sales are increasing...and with a new array of diesels starting in the Q7 (V6, V8, V12) , and hopefully through out the model line up, the pace should increase.
Audi has the A5, Q5 & A7 coming in the next 3 years, so they should be able to do it.
Audi seems to feel they get more bang for the buck in these areas of media:
TV - "the Discovery Channel" (as opposed to CSI - Miami)
TV - "nationally produced ads co-op'ed with dealers"
TV - "the History Channel" and other [similar] less mainstream, "narrower" viewership channels
Print - magazines: high buck magazines, narrow target audience magazines (Town and Country, GQ, Vogue, Architectural Digest, etc)
Print - magazines: Car & Driver, Road & Track, Popular_____, CAR, European Car, The quattro Quarterly
Direct mail
Print - magazines: Newsweek, Time, US News and World Reports
National newspapers: Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, USA Today
Co - op'ed newspapers: local in top "X" (50?) markets
Event sponsorship: The Dallas Symphony, Skiing, Hot Air Ballooning, charity events (again, narrow focus.)
Are Audi buyers more erudite? More left brained? Less Right Brained or MORE Right Brained? More interested in the Discovery Channel than "Two and a half Men?"
More likely to watch "Monk" than reruns of "the A Team?"
????
Beats me? :surprise: