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To me that means the I4 engine has a flawless record! The V6 engine would probably also be flawless after the air/fuel sensor is replaced!"
Guess you must have missed this part...
"Occasional problems on this vehicle are failures of the Engine and the Canister Closed Vacuum Switching Valve or Pressure Sensor Vacuum Switching Valve. Failure of the Engine is caused because the engine oil gels. Engine oil gelling will also cause excessive engine oil usage."
And yes, the I4 is involved...
"Faced with a consumer revolt over low mileage engine failures caused by oil sludge buildup, Toyota has begun to notify 3.3 million owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0-liter IMZ V-6 engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with 5SFE 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engines that it will cover the cost of sludge-related repairs for eight years from date of initial sale."
http://www.autosafety.org/article.php?did=416&scid=37
Honda has the automatic transmission issue. Toyota has the engine sludge issue. Both issues are serious, but neither issue is as widespread as each brand's critics would have you believe. And both manufacturers have provided extended warranties to cover the issues. But don't insist that the Camry is "flawless" with either the V6 or the I4. Again, a little research shows that to be inaccurate.
1) MSN.com does not strike me as reputable source for auto info.
2) The 2.4L 4 cylinder in the current Camry is related in NO WAY to the 4s that were affected by the sludge issue. (Just wanted to highlight that).
~alpha
PS-
talon95- no problem, boss!
1. I'm not an MSN fan... I'm only mentioning them because MSN was referenced to criticize the Accord.
2. Per Automotive News:
What: 3.3 million Toyota engines built from 1996 to 2001
Problem: Sludge buildup that can ruin engine
Toyota models equipped with 3.3 million 1MZ V-6 and 5SFE inline 4 engines produced between July 1996 and July 2001
Camry, 4- and 6-cylinder, August 1996 to July 2001
http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=38302
Is this an error?
But you're absolutely correct... the 5FSE I4 engine was used in the previous gen Camry (1997-2001). This engine may be subject to the sludge issue and is covered under Toyota's extended warranty. The likelihood of a particular unit actually being affected is fairly small, as only a small % of Camrys were affected.
As for the current generation Camry (2002+), it has a new I4 design that is NOT subject to the sludge issue.
And indeed, the 2.4L is in no way related to the iron-block 2.2L at all.
~alpha
~alpha
Regarding oil changes and sludging, I have heard of some people who changed their oil equal to or better than the manual suggests who got sludge and also have heard of people who went well beyond the recommendations in the manuals and did not get sludge. There really does seem to be more at play with this problem than oil change interval. At the www.yotarepair.com website, the tech there targets the PCV as the culprit. I heard Toyota came out with a new head design and modified PCV about the same time as the articles came out in 2002 about the sludge fix policy.
I had pretty horrible expieriences at all 3 of the Toyota dealers I visited, and moderate to good expieriences at the Honda ones. I pretty much kissed the Toyota and the camry goodbye for good, at the last Toyo dealer that we visited. I wasn't a big fan of the car, or of the way that we were treated, as potential customers.
I liked the interior of the accord a lot better than the incredibly sedate insides of the Camry, plus the Nav was availiable on non V6 models. Overall, the accord was a much better value for what I got and paid.
The camry is just a car- ho hum and nothing much to enjoy. The accord, however is a car they you can fall in love with.
No,the engine sludge, possible transmission problems, and availiabilty of VSC were not warring factions during our hunt for a new car. Frankly, I don't like the "nickle and dime" approach that Toyota takes when equipping their cars. The set list of features on each honda trim level makes it very easy for both the dealer and buyer to get the car they need, and it makes more sense.
Just my two cents as a consumer...
Experiences can be bad at any dealership, including Lexus and whatnot.
To be honest, I get the best treatment when I shop around Domestic car lots. Ford, GM and Chrysler have always been nice to me.
Too bad the products weren't what I wanted.
And while I dont think Honda's no option policy is the best solution, I definitely agree that Toyota could make its options availability and packaging more logical, and simpler for the consumer.
That said, in my opinion, I dont really see how the Accord is a vehicle to fall in love with while the Camry isnt. They are both megaseller mainstream sedans. I dont think this ignites the fire of passion in the loins of most folks, but I would definitely argue that people become can completely engaged in the Camry experience, but for different reasons than you are engaged in the Accord's.
Finally, I think that Honda makes NAV available on the 4s is awesome. (Not to mention the std. side curtains).
~alpha
I agree. Each has its strong points. Camry favors ride over handling, has a bigger trunk and arguably is nicer looking from the rear (esp with a spoiler) plus you can get stability control. The Accord seemed a little smoother to me, perhaps a little tighter in the turns, and would appear to get better mileage with the V6. It could easily come down to option choices, color and dealer reputation.
I don't think the car mags (who universally love the Accord) have the same wants and needs as the typical driver.
Different strokes for different folks...
I ruled out the Accord for two reasons: Road noise seemed to be a lot higher (I place a high value on low noise levels) and the seating position on the Accord seems to be several inches lower than on the Camry. The Accord simply did not feel as spacious as the Camry. I ultimately purchased a Camry XLE v6 that has been a pleasure to drive.
So far my best car-buying experience has been purchasing a new Toyota through Carmax.
I hope Carmax expands the number of brands it offers new, so there are more choices when you want to avoid a traditional dealer.
My business may not make a difference to them, but they just lost one loyal customer. Other cars may not be as reliable like the Hondas, Toyotas and may not have a great resale value. Big deal! I am willing to take a risk as long as I am treated well.
All the mazda dealers here in the twin cities were very upfront with the pricing and made the purchase very simple.
The experiences I had with that dealership were EXCELLENT!!!!
They have some of the friendlist and most hard-working individuals in the business. I was amazed at how much they worked with me when I first began looking for a car (Back when the 00 Maxima came out)
I recommend Carmax today, even though they don't sell Nissans in Greenville anymore. I have ran into some pretty good dealerships, but none have been as good as Carmax has been.
The dealership you were referring to is the one in Baltimore right?
IMO, the toyota dealers made car buying a lot easier by making me not want a toyota- thereby eliminating the need to test drive and compare further.
I'm pretty happy with the decision we made to get the accord. The road noise is pretty inoffensive, and I prefer to not feel total disconnect with the road. The XM is great, as is the Nav system
But everyone is looking for different things in a car, so your mileage may vary...
dealers that have vehicles that sell on price that need constant incentives to move will have salesmen who are more accommodating.
this is much more a factor on how you're treated by a dealership than who's the manufacturer.
many dealers sell both domestic and foreign cars. you think they split up your work force by sending the "nice" people to the buick lot and the "meanies" to the honda lot?
and Hmurphy, I was actually referring to you. I forgot all about the dealership in Wisconsin.
My experience with Carmax has been excellent. If they ever sell new cars the Upstate, SC area again, I will shop them.
So far, it has been the best automobile we have ever owned.
The Camry buying experience was quite good. When I first visited the dealer, a salesmen met me at the front door. I told him I wanted a quick answer to 2 questions: 1. Will you actually sell me a new 2004 Camry LE (Auto Trans) for the advertised price ($16,995)? Will you give me the Kelly Blue Book trade in price for my trade in?
He led me to several Camry's in his lot and offered a test drive of as many of them as I wanted to consider while my trade in was appraised. The bottom line is, I got the price I wanted on both the trade-in and the new Camry. It was painless, and the Camry has proven to be more than I expected.
Visiting the local Honda dealer was not so good. The salesman spend a lot of time explaining things that I already knew. The sales manager was arrogant. He offered me $1500 less that the Kelly Blue Book value of my trade-in. He gave me a ridiculous explanation when I asked him for a discounted price on an Accord with a manual trans. (He said he won't discount one of those because he only had 4 of them. I asked him why doesn't he order more. He said he wouldn't, because few people buy them.) The visit to that Honda dealer was a waste of 3 hours of my time.
The Camry has needed no repairs or adjustments and gets great gas mileage (4 cyl). When you pack 5 people and all their gear into the car, the power seems scarce, but for normal loads, it does well. This is my first Toyota, it won't be the last.
Jim
Price/financing:
Price:
I bought the Accord ‘04 EX V6 (w/side airbags) in March ’04: price: $24,230 (~invoice).
I bought the Camry ‘05 SE V6 ~3 weeks ago: price: $25,500 (~$200 above invoice, but Toyota’s invoice story is more complicated (need to add advertising fees, etc; or so they tell me)).
Financing:
Bboth at 36 mos; Honda: 1.9%; Toyota: 0%; financing the total (ignoring additional fees and tax) results in $693/month for Accord; $708/month for Camry;
very slight edge Accord
Buying experience:
Both dealers in Houston were professional w/no funny business.
For Accord, only needed to choose model and color.
Unfortunately, Toyota does not build the Camry I wanted: SE V6 w/side airbags, so I ordered it (took 3.5 months). Also in Houston, Gulf States Toyota tends to add high mark-up items to many cars on the lot. Good news, I finally got the car I wanted.
Edge: Accord
Features:
Accord advantages: satellite radio, automatic climate control, power passenger seat, telescoping steering wheel, more powerful engine (on paper at least); Homelink, slightly better gas mileage.
Camry advantages: vehicle stability control, more interior space; impressive 17” wheels/tires; more comfortable (IMO) seats; slightly better (upgraded) stereo than Accords very nice standard system; optional auto dimming rear view mirror and adjustable pedals (options included in my price comparison).
Edge: Camry
Fit and finish:
Both excellent
Materials quality/subjective feel:
Both excellent but Camry has a slightly more upscale/substantive feel (especially the leather!)
Edge: Camry
Performance:
Accord: excellent overall, with excellent throttle response
Camry: excellent overall w/3.3L engine, slightly less responsive (slightly firmer gas pedal? and it’s barely broken in; but when I punched the pedal, IT MOVED!!). Camry has a somewhat more refined feel (less noise/vibration.
tie
Ride:
Accord: firm/controlled ride
Camry: firm/controlled ride (w/”sports suspension and 17” wheels); slightly quieter
Edge: Camry
Overall; my subjective comparison shows a very close race, but my family’s and my preference goes to the Camry SE V6! (with the Premium equipment package, VSC/side airbags, dimming rearview mirror, adjustable pedals, heated seats, mat set).
Let us know how things progress as time wears on!
cheers,
~alpha
Those two vehicles are on my short list. I have driven both but it's difficult to learn this much in a 20 minute test drive. You have performed a valuable service for all of us potential Accord or Camry owners.
This was one of the most informative posts I've ever seen on Edmunds. Thanks a lot.
I suspect the followings:
Safety features: Edge Camry
Safety test: Edge Camry
Reliability: Edge Camry
Durability: Edge Camry
Warranty: Edge Camry
.....
Please correct me with facts and references if I am wrong!
The insurance industry should have good comparative data on accident and injuries/fatality rates.
___I don’t know about the rest other then the warranty but in terms of crash safety, the Accord is one tough customer to beat by comparison according to the NHTSA as listed at www.safercar.gov
Frontal impact: Driver/Passenger
2004 Accord 4 door sedan: 5*/5*
2004 Camry 4 door sedan: 4*/4*
Side Impact: Front/Rear
2004 Accord 4 door sedan: 4*/5*
2004 Camry 4 door sedan: 4*/3*
Rollover:
2004 Accord 4 door sedan: 4*
2004 Camry 4 door sedan: 4*
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Accord holds an advantage because all are now equipped with the very important SAB/SAC as std equipment. However, this option is increasingly available on the Camry. The Camry has an advantage because stability control is available across the line, and has been shown in recent studies by different organizations to significantly lower the risk of single vehicle crashes.
my .02.
~alpha
When a Toyota dealer recently searched, there were only 5 VSC-equipped Camrys available in the entire southeastern United States.
Anyway, I'm hopeful that Honda's "Safety for Everyone" program will be extended to include VSC on it's passenger cars. At present, Honda only says it will be putting VSC w/rollover sensors on all it's vans and SUVs.
~alpha
~alpha
I am hoping that automobile professionals like yourself and your fine 'forum managers' would have superior knowledge about cars than laymen like I am.
The thing to do is your own research and then ask questions based on what you find. Or ask for opinions without demanding that people give you research to back them up.
Hope you see the difference - if not, drop me an email so this discussion doesn't get sidetracked.
One offers SAB/SCAB and ABS as standard equipment. One offers VSC as an option. I would prefer to have the SAB/SCAB because I can control my driving but I can't control someone's car hitting mine.
Performance is pretty close in most measurements. The typical driver couldn't care less about a few tenths of a second advantage to 60 MPH.
Reliability will probably be about even. Some will have better luck with the Camry and some will have better luck with the Accord.
Styling is subjective so to each his own. No point debating which is more attractive because everyone has different criteria for judging exterior and interior design.
Features ... the Accord has some things the Camry doesn't and the Camry has some things the Accord doesn't. Again, it's a wash.
In the end the decision is going to come down to what your personal preferences are. I want a sportier design and feel with a manual transmission while still having a reliable, safe car. The Accord was my choice.
Personally, as great as the Camry is it is way down on my list as far as family sedans go. Even though it is near the top in all categories it just doesn't appeal to me. Just as the Accord doesn't appeal to some of you despite it's equal greatness.
1. The Accord drives nicer. In the Camry there is noticable body roll around corners and curves - the Accord feels tighter.
2. The Camry was quieter. You can hear more road noise in the Accord. My new Accord is not as noisy as my wife's Quest, but it is noisier than my old Camry.
2a. I was hoping to find a car without a sun-roof (but with leather) to cut down on noise. This is impossible in an Accord; it is theoritically possible in a Camry, but in practise I was not able to find this combination in the Bay Area (its either premium plus package with leather/sun-roof or cloth). In the end I gave up on this and went with the EX-L.
3. At least in the Bay Area, the Accord seems to be cheaper (I got an i4 EX-L for 21.6K, best price I was quoted on a Camry XLE with leather/sun-roof and side/curtain air bags was 23.1K - and this did not have heated seats and XM radio which are standard on Accord EX-L).
4. The Camry has a few features the Accord is missing. No heated outside mirrors are available in the Accord - these are standard in the XLE(outside mirrors can fog up a little in cold and/or wet weather in the Accord). Also, the auto-dimming mirror and power passenger seat are only available in V6 Accords (standard in 4-cylinder XLE).
4a. If you want cloth seats, you can buy a Camry XLE which is still feature rich. But in the Accord, the best you can do is an EX - which is missing many features (no power driver seat in the Accord EX !!- strange). Also no climate control in the Accord EX - standard in the XLE. Some of my friends hate leather - for them, an XLE would be a better buy I think.
5. The Accord interior looks nicer than the Camry (I know - very subjective). Also, it is slightly more convenient (nicer pockets in doors with additional cup holders, slightly more reachable knobs and cup holders, telescoping steering, etc).
6. The Accord has a nicer stereo. XM is standard on the Accord EX-L (optional on the Camery), and it sounds better to my ears (evry subjective I know).
7. While I did not get the Accord navigation system (wish I had ;-)), it is possible to get both a 6-CD changer + a navi in the Accord; in the Camry, you have to downgrade to a single CD if you get the navi.
8. CR rates Camry as slightly more reliable than Accord. But the Accord has slightly better safety ratings. Overall, both cars are excellent in these two important categories (make sure you get side/curtain air bags if you buy a Camry, these are standard on Accords).
Bottom line : I bought the Accord because of the nicer drive - and the better deal. In all honesty, it was the deal that finally swung me to the Accord - $1500 less than the comparable Camry...
Sunil
This should be amended to read "one offers SAB/SCAB and ABS as standard but VSC is not available. One offers ABS as standard and SAB/SCAB and VSC as options."
You can order cars with your exact options. The price will be a few hundreds higher than those off-the-lot and a few months wait.
I suspect the followings:
Safety features: Edge Camry
Safety test: Edge Camry
Reliability: Edge Camry
Durability: Edge Camry
Warranty: Edge Camry"
Hmmm, based on your comparison, and assuming they're equally weighted, the winners are - Hyundai and Ford Focus!
I think more of you should rent or borrow a car with Vehicle Stability Control before using it as a differentiator.
You may find the VSC interferes with your driving style or driving conditions in a wy that is annoying or at least intrusive. Frankly, I don't see too many Camary or Accord owners driving them in a way, or in conditions where the VSC would make the slightest difference.
I just bought an Accord EX V6. To my taste the Camry is dowdy looking - bland at best - and the interiors the same. The Accord is not as hushed on the highway but seems more responsive to driver input.
A prospective purchaser should sit in and drive both. The Accord seats fit me better than any auto seat I've ever had. I find the satellite radio an annoyance - just another band to scroll across.
I have never driven a car with VSC but I have read about it extensively. I also work in an emergency department and have spoken to multiple patients involved in motor vehicle collisions where such a system would have prevented an accident. The purpose of VSC is to bail you out of situations where you could lose control of your vehicle. It has the ability to recognize a skid before you do and make small corrections before it gets out of control. If you drive like a normal, responsible person then VSC should never enter into the equation . It will, however, be there when you need it most. The times when I have seen mention to it being "annoying" or "intrusive" is during high performance maneuvers or track conditions.
Here is an example of how it can save a life. A friend of mine had a relative who was exiting the highway in wet conditions. She realized that she was getting off the wrong exit and cut the wheel back to get on the highway but another vehicle was blocking her re-entry. She tried to correct and lost control of the vehicle. She spun out and was run over by a truck. Her car was crushed and she died instantly. This is the type of accident, as well as many single vehicle collisions, that VSC is intended to prevent.
That aside, it is nice that Toyota has given their buyers the option. I'm sure Honda will follow suit within a model year or so. ESC is getting so much attention, I think we will see installation rates and availability increase far quicker than for ABS 20 years ago.
These stability systems work seamlessly to protect you before you realize there is an issue. While they don't repeal the laws of physics they do sense vehicle instability before you and brake/cut the throttle before the instability turns into a full-fledged skid or worse.
To really see how they work, find a snow-covered empty parking lot and have fun.
And if you're such an unaware and uninvolved driver that you don't even realize that there's an issue before ESC kicks in, perhaps you should take the bus. I certainly don't want an ESC system that's constantly "micro-managing" my driving even under normal circumstances. That's definitely the "gets in the way" scenario. And looking at it that way is not uninformed because I've seen reviews where it was mentioned that the ESC engaged too soon, when there was no real issue. It depends on the threshold levels that the designers use for engagement. If they're set too low, the system will engage too often in "non-emergency" situations and interfere with normal driving.
Another issue that I have with ESC... will this spawn a new generation of self-proclaimed "invincible" drivers? Having lived in the snow belt all of my life, I've seen far too many situations where drivers of 4WD/AWD vehicles would drive recklessly (IMO) in poor road conditions, speeding and passing others left and right, because they assumed that such a design gave them the power over the laws of physics. And many times I've passed those vehicles a few miles down the road when the laws of physics caught up with them and they ended up spinning out or in a ditch. Hopefully without taking any innocent bystanders with them.
I fear that this technology is going to spawn the same mentality in some drivers, making them think that they can drive as aggressively as they wish, even in bad conditions, because they've deluded themselves into thinking that they have this power over the laws of physics.
I don't deny that ESC has value, but IMO there's no substitute for better handling capabilities and responsible, skilled drivers who are always aware of what's going on around them.