Although only Honda knows for sure, based on past 5 year model cycles, the Accord won't get its styling "refresh" until the 4th year of this generation, which would be 2006.
My experience with my Honda dealer in terms of the cars they will be receiving in the future was good. They had a computer printout showing arrival dates (over the next three-to-four weeks)of various models and their colors. They could also easily access regional dealers lists and divert one of their factory allotments to them by trading an allotment with that dealer. I was shown similar lists at other dealerships I was visiting during the comparison stage of my shopping, including Toyota, Nissan, and Pontiac. As it turned out, I bought a car off the Honda lot that was still wrapped up in plastic from the factory, so the speedometer showed 12 miles on it by the time I test drove it and bought it.
In contrast, I shopped a Chrysler 300M before buying my 04 Accord LX and was told the man in charge of the list of future cars was new on the job and wasn't sure what they would be receiving. It was such a fabricated story I almost laughed out loud. I don't think car dealerships have any idea of how astonishingly ridiculous they look to any halfway discerning customer when they come up with such evasions. They (and the Honda dealers I shopped were not immune from this) fish around to see if you really are stupid, then if you're not, they reluctantly, step by step, work their way up to an intelligent deal. That's a generalization, of course, but it fits quite a few of the sales situations I've been in during more than 40 years of buying cars, including a range of American and Japanese dealerships.
One really sad ploy occurred with my Honda dealer as we were about to close the deal. She tried to confuse me by putting down the figures in a different way, coming out with a cash difference on the trade of $1,000 more than we had just agreed to. I simply restated what we had agreed was the price on their car and on my trade, and the cash difference. She said, "Hmmmm," looked at her figures again, and finally got it right. One key, to me, is having my own tablet and pen to keep track of the figures so that they make sense to me. If you try to do this in your head, you will probably get confused.
I don't any have problem with car salespeople pushing for the best deal for them -- they're in business to make money, as am I, and I'm basically on their side, and I tell them that. However, the evasions and attempts to be deceptive are what taint the process. I treasure the few sales reps I've dealt with who avoid that as much as possible.
1. The salesman was not forthcoming (I'll say that as the word lie upset the dealership owner. I explained to him and Honda Customer Service that we can call it whatever we want, but it all comes from the same root) with the information I requested. He knew I wasn't wild about this Accord and it's dealer-installed options. I asked him when he could get one from the factory, and he said 60-90 days. In fact, he had one less than 6 days later. According to ISell (a Honda salesman) and austinman7, dealerships DO in fact know what they're getting and when. Also, ISell said that dealerships can't "order" vehicles from the factory as the salesman informed me. So, however you want to spin it, the salesman wasn't completely truthful. Everyone lies at one point in their life or another. I don't have a problem with that. I do, however, have a problem when the owner tells me that nobody at his place lies (what a laugh I had with that one!), and if they did, he'd fire them on the spot. So you mean to tell me that a.) you've never lied (the owner) and b.)nobody at your dealership has ever lied? Give me a break....you're telling me a lie right now! Regarding the mileage....this is really the least of my concerns. It had 150 miles on it, and I understand where they came from. No, bolivar, I didn't think it was going to fly to me. The sarcasm isn't really necessary. They already had the car. They had traded for it before I even came into the picture....please, make sure you have your facts in order before you go on the offensive! The bumper...again, not a real worry to me. I know it'll be fixed, because I have it in writing. All I was saying is that 1. I want a new from the factory bumper, and 2. I refuse to have that dealership repair it. It'll be repaired at a place of my choice. There's no way I'd let that dealership touch this car again. FYI there was no "dealer add-on window sticker". This is another complaint I had. I believe it's law that it must be on the vehicle. I don't believe the door edge guards are a Honda product. If they were, it'd take about 2 seconds to pop them off the doors. No, these are some aftermarket things that appear to be applied with an adhesive. That makes it a little less easy to just pop off. I would like paint to remain on the edges of my doors! I'm not going to verbally assult the elderly lady that struck my vehicle as your sarcastically sugessted. I'm happy that she came to me and admitted to me what happened. In today's society, many people would've just drove off. I know her insurance will take care of it completely...now the question is when they're going to come look at it. It's been nearly a week and nobody yet! I've relaxed now, knowing that this is a great vehicle and that all my problems WILL be fixed eventually. I do take offense at those who imply that I was not prepared before purchasing this vehicle. Quite the contrary. I did research for months before making this purchase, reading customer reviews, message boards such as this one, taking multiple test drives, etc. I just hope that none of you are ever involved in situation(s) like these. If you are, the BBB is your best bet. It seems to me like Honda won't do squat to resolve this situation except send an email to the dealership saying that they had received a complaint. They said there was nothing they could do when I told them I refused to let this dealership repair my vehicle that they damaged. Whatever, the owner of the dealership is a franchisee. Last I checked, the franchisor could tell them to do whatever. Anyway, it'll be resolved sometime. Thanks for responding to my posts and for your support (well, most of you).
"The salesman was not forthcoming .............. He knew I wasn't wild about this Accord and it's dealer-installed options. I asked him when he could get one from the factory, and he said 60-90 days."
That is how long it would take to get one from the factory isn't it? According to our experts here. Why is that a lie?
"In fact, he had one less than 6 days later. "
How do you know that he knew this fact at the very moment you and he were having this conversation? He could have checked sure, but you didn't ask hime to do that. Is this still a lie?
Also, ISell said that dealerships can't "order" vehicles from the factory as the salesman informed me.
The technical wording is a matter or semantics. He may have assumed you as the lay person would not understand the difference between a custom factory order and placing a request for a specfic allocation or trading an allocated vehicle with another dealership. A third lie?
"Regarding the mileage....this is really the least of my concerns." You didn't sound that way several posts ago...
"The bumper...again, not a real worry to me. "
Check your posts back from the beginning. Not the same story you are telling now. Is this a lie?
"FYI there was no "dealer add-on window sticker". This is another complaint I had. I believe it's law that it must be on the vehicle."
How much extra did you pay for these add-ons? You should have gotten that in writing prior to purchase or removed if you didn't like it.
".... the BBB is your best bet. It seems to me like Honda won't do squat to resolve this situation except send an email to the dealership saying that they had received a complaint."
The BBB is paid for by the very businesses that they track complaints on. So they are a resource for you to use but they have a vested interest in keeping the records of their paying business partners clean. What exactly do you expect Honda North America to do? And Why? You signed the dotted line to get the car that you didn't want. The old lady has nothing to do with Honda. The dealership employee that banged up your bumper also is not a Honda problem.
1. Honda dealers don't do custom orders. They can't order cars from the factory. They can alter their allotment by trading with other dealers. They have all this information. He told me 60-90 days, and got one in less than 6. This isnt' honesty. 2. The mileage doesn't bother me as much now because I know the facts. They traded with another dealer who happens to be 125 miles away. Explainable. Is this OK? Thanks for your approval. 3. The bumper WILL be fixed to my approval. This means that a new one will be ordered, and painted by another dealership. 4. Replying to bolivar's assertment that there was a sticker on the vehicle listing the dealer added options and their prices. There wasn't. The price I paid was all inclusive. There wasn't anything on the paperwork like "$60 for door edge guards, $150 for pin stripes". 5. Honda should care. The owner of the dealership and the kid who damaged my vehicle are representatives of Honda. It reflects poorly on them because their franchisees are arrogant (this one anyway). I think Honda can make this or any other dealership do what they say. They tell them how many cars their getting each year, and in what colors, so why can't they tell them that they're going to pay for my vehicle to be repaired elsewhere? I would assume that's part of the franchise agreement: that Honda can shut you down at any time, and you'll do what they tell you. Sort of like McDonalds. They tell you you're going to use cups with McDonalds logo on them, not some generic Solo cup. 6. The BBB: You're right. It's in their best interest to keep organizations records clean. That's why most things get resolved in a satisfactory manner: To make the consumer happy, and to have a good comment in the organizations record. Again, I appreciate your input, even if you disagree with me. It sometimes helps to see both sides of the story.
I have a similar unpleasant experience with my purchase. The salesman is very nice, but the guy who did all the financial paperwork was disgusting. In the sheet of payment choice, he put the monthly payment for the one with extension warranty and comprehensive warrant and left the basic 3 years warranty one blank. I asked him what is monthly payment for the basic 3 years warranty. He told me the number. And then PERVADINGLY told me I could buy the extension warranty and canceled it later. HERE, I CLEARLY asked him whether I needed to pay for the cancellation and get all my money back. I was told you could cancel it whenever you want without charge as long as you did not use it. 8 month later, I went to cancel the extension warranty, and astonishingly was told I could not get my money back, and plus had to $50 penalty. This time, a lady told me that I could get my money back if I canceled it within one month, but I still have to pay $50. She also told me the extension warranty stared when I made the purchase, not from the forth year. Then I talked with that guy, he said he never said that words. Then I talked with his manager, the manager said they sold “many” “many” cars each month. In this situation, he chose to trust his man otherwise he would not put him at that position. That comment is really annoying. I talked with the owner who was a lawyer. The first sentence he said was Go to talk with your lawyer if you want. I told him that I hoped the money he got from me could be used to teach them behave more honestly and gentlemen. It is only about $150. Who get it will not become a millionaire. I don’t understand their response, protecting profit? Reputation? Why cannot the dealer behave more like a gentlemen?
It would be lovely if we could trust everything that anyone says in the course of a business transaction, but unfortunately it's usually a good CYA maneuver to ask to see a cancellation policy in writing before you sign anything.
My dealer didn't try any hijinks, but obviously some do, so it's best to know exactly what you're getting yourself into before you sign.
We had some snow with extremely cold temperatures in my area, and we ended up with very slippery roads because the salt couldn't keep up. My EX V6 with OEM tires also did great. The traction control kicked in a few times and was very unobtrusive, but it definitely helped. I remember driving in such conditions with my first Accord (a 2000 EX V6) and it was difficult to control the wheelspin. No such problems with the 2003.
desmonsm: The franchise agreement between Honda and their dealers is a contract which clearly spells out what each party can (and probably also, what they cannot) do. I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV!), but I'm betting that Honda cannot simply "shut [them] down at any time" nor would they want to. From what I've seen, read, and heard, the franchisees hold a fair amount of independent power in the relationship -- for good or ill....
hji: Understand, as I stated above, that I am not a lawyer, but you might want to check out small claims court. In some states a corporation (such as the dealer undoubtedly is) would be required to be represented by an attorney in any small claims court action. That will certainly cost them much more than the $150 you seek for justice. If you are mad enough, don't mind the hassle of finding out what it takes, and pursue a small claims court filing; you might find the dealer only too eager to give you your money back after they receive the summons! ;-) (They also might surprise you with their amiable response; many such business people consider pushing hard as just being part of the game and do not take it personally. Shucks, they might even admire you for it!) Good luck.
Once again I'm completely impressed with how the Accord handles in sloppy weather. We're in Gaithersburg, MD and woke up to the tune of 8 inches of the white stuff. My daughter is sick and we had to get to an early morning doctor's appointment before much plowing was done. My EX-V6 was steady as a rock and handled the messy roads beautifully. TC and ABS kicked in briefly a couple of times. Now *that* puts a smile on my face. My neighbor's big honkin' pickup was sliding all over the place.
I'm a little surprised about the static you are catching from some posters.
If I was in your situation, I would feel exactly the same way you do.
You seem to be handling the situation as well as can be expected, and I wish you the best on your repair. I hope your ownership experience improves dramatically from this point.
I'm glad to hear trac control does well in snowy weather. We are getting dumped on here in central Indiana. It may sway my decision to get a V6 when I am ready to buy.
"independent businesses that act as dealers for the manufacturer" is a pretty good definition of franchisee. I'll try to paraphrase to avoid copyright infringement, but the essence of the Webster's Collegiate Dictionary definition of franchise that applies here is to legally allow someone to sell a company's product in a particular area. Few, if any, McDonald's are owned by the corporation. And, in Texas at the very least, automobile manufacturers cannot own a dealership for their product by law (guess who supports lobbying efforts to keep that provision?!?).
I had no intention to pick on anyone. My only point is that looking to Honda corporate to do much in the way of policing their dealers is pretty much another exercise in frustration. It seems there is enough frustration already being experienced without "tilting at windmills."
i too am in the DC area, just across the river from Gaithersburg in Potomac Falls. the Accord did just fine, though the Traction Control did come on briefly at a few stop lights. i definitely like the Traction Control. my turbo Jetta had it too, it helps with hills A LOT!
Franchisors tend to have much more control over a franchisee than a manufacturer does over a dealer. The word franchise implies that a certain selling/branding/service method must be implemented. A franchise typically obilgates the franchisee to pay ongoing fees and a percentage of the gross profits back to the franchisor. The typical franchisee is also paying rent to a realty company owned by the franchisor. Lastly, franchises are governed under their own unique set of laws. None of these is found in a dealer scenario.
The auto dealer maintains a much greater level of autonomy than a franchisee. Yes the manufacturer exerts some level of pressure regarding minimum inventory and allocation but the relationship is much more independent.
As you said: "My only point is that looking to Honda corporate to do much in the way of policing their dealers is pretty much another exercise in frustration." which is my point - the manufacturer can do little to punish a dealer unless the dealer is in gross violation of its contract.
Not very long ago, buying a car for me was an event almost in the magnitude of buying a house (actually it may still be, because buying a car is a lot more enjoyable).
Case in point: as early as July 1997 (and not as internet-active then), the Businessweek article on the 6th gen Accord was the first thing I read on that mag. My sons and wife were often the unwilling audience for my thoughts and opinions of the car.
Finally, Sep 97 came and we were at the car dealership (Gwinnett Place Honda in metro Atlanta, biggest in SE), waiting eagerly after the pre-delivery prep to drive home the best and the newest.
But wait, they had drilled holes in the front bumper for a license plate holder, something you don't need in rear-plate-only Georgia, to secure of course the dealer's label plate.
I complained, because the car didn't have the holes when I picked it off the lot, and the dealer complied by replacing my bumper with one that came from a same-color car in the lot.
What I learned: if possible, buy from a volume dealer - because their prices are often better to start with, and they have more flexibility to deal with customer issues.
"He told me 60-90 days, and got one in less than 6. This isnt' honesty"
Let me guess, "if we order a car, or designate destination on a particular model, it'll be 60-90 days"....but then after doing a dealer locate, they had one in a week.
Much easier to avoid fixing lemons. Manufacturer claims no responsibility because dealer is independent. Dealer claims no responsibility because he did not manufacture the product. Don't you just love attorneys who think of these loopholes to screw the consumer?
I am also in Gaithersburg, MD and started to take the wife's Toyota Highlander for help in the snow (AWD). Took the Accord instead, was super impressed by the speed of the defroster. Also when you put gear selector in 2, the car starts in 2 reducing wheel spin (my TC never came on). As a native New Englander not intimidated by snow (ice is a different horse), I felt the Accord really did well in about 6-8" of snow and with ice pack underneath.
I specified for years in the agreement to purchase that no stickers, advertising ornaments, would be added to the car. Only a license plate rim could be used if the dealer had them.
I felt if they didn't pay me to advertise their dealership, I don't drive a rolling billboard.
BTW: saw a trailer with four sides of lighted, revolving billboards being towed around town during rushhouse last Friday. It rotated messages just like the changing billboards along a highway. What a distraction because of the lighting and the changing messages...
at least for a while, in Texas. A new law went into effect last year prohibiting blocking any part of the license plate. While the intention was to prevent purposeful obscuring of license plates for traffic camera purposes, the result is being enforced to disallow the majority of existing license plate frames because they cover the top half of the word "Texas" (I know, I know). Dealers are now scrambling to find readable license plate frames that avoid infringing on now-forbidden territory.
It worked out well for me though, as my dealer had not affixed any other advertising on my recently-purchases Yukon XL and then had to remove the non-complying license plate frame as well. Result is a pristine paint job and no unwelcome advertising as I drive (Even so, I'm not ashamed to say that the dealer is Ewing GMC/Buick/Pontiac in Plano, TX. They have treated me very well so far.)
This way I can see where a particluar car manufacturer has their dealerships. It gives you an idea where every dealership in your area that your living in is.
Sometines when I see a new car somebody bought at work you see the dealers little paper advertisement in the middle of the liscence plate and the next day you don't see it. I guess the owners just take the little card board paper out of the middle of the liscence plate.
It is possible to remove key from ignition while car is in Neutral or Drive! This can cause huge problems if your car rolls when it is parked and accidentally left in Neutral!
There is a recall, but Honda won't cover me because only half the VINs for 1999 are covered! Talk about poor customer service!
Honda only started the re call because of complaints to the NHTSA.
Why can't Honda Corporate do the right thing and fix this manufacturing defect? It could be dangerous.
The reason Honda has only recalled certain VINs is because these are the cars that had the potentially faulty parts installed in them. If your VIN is not covered it isn't because Honda is being cheap, the part in your car is not in need of repair.
I am not a corporate employee, and I will also tell you that if your VIN number does not fall within the range defined by the recall, then your car does not need attention. They are very aware of which mechanisms are faulty and the recall covers all that are.
If your dealer is telling you that your ignition is bad, yet your VIN is not in the range, then your either your ignition problem either has nothing to do with the recall or he/she is trying to trick you into paying for some maintenance you do not need.
Have you tried pulling your key out with the car in drive?
I have no affiliation to Honda or any other car manufacturer for that matter. I was only trying to help explain the concept of recall notices and why in some instances the recall only pertains to specific VINs.
I do own an Accord, in fact my '99 had the recall you are referring to. And while I cannot state this as fact without knowing your VIN and looking up the recall notice, my point is that the reason only certain VINs are covered for a given recall is because they are the only cars that the "faulty" part in question was installed. While all Accords will have an igntion switch, not all of these were made by the same vendor and/or were from the same lot # shown to have the problem. If your VIN is not covered, yet the same part is defective, either the problem with your switch is different than that covered by the recall, or Honda has a problem with more switches than they are acknowledging. If the problem with your switch is the same cause/effect as the recall, contact Honda and scream bloody murder. I am on your side in this regard. However, if the defect in your switch is not the same as that of the recall, then I think it just has to be considered bad luck unless you can show this is cropping up consistently in other vehicles.
I heard about the ignition recall on the news a couple of weeks ago (bad news travels.... slow?!?). At the time, I remember thinking, "How in the world would anybody find this out?!?" I mean, come on, who would even try to take the key out of the ignition except when in park? By accident? Kids playing around (when they should be in the back, safely belted into their seats anyway!)?
I've been driving for almost 35 years now and not once in all that time have I snagged anything on the keys in the ignition, hit it with any part of my body in such a way as might potentially dislodge the key from the ignition, nor in any other way had anything whatever happen that could in my wildest imaginings dislodge the key from the ignition.
Are attorneys having so much trouble earning income that they are now actively attempting stupid things to sue about? Or is it just that we have, as a society, lost so much of our sense of personal responsibility that anything and everything idiotic that might cross our thoughtless "minds" to do must be something that "they" are required to protect us from?!?
Soon to be seen on kitchen knives: "WARNING! poking this utensil into your eye might cause blindness or death!" Sheesh....
My congratulations to you. You sound like a perfect human being.
Us mortals do make mistakes and leave the car in Neutral when it should be in Park. A bad accident can result if the car rolls downhill.
I have a bad opinion of Honda Corporate. They are being shortminded in not covering the entire VIN run. I have put in a official complaint with the NHTSA regarding this. If enough people do likewise, Honda will have to expand the recall.
This could cause serious damage if you have a 99 or 98 Accord.
Not perfect in the least. But, if you are ever to leave the car in neutral instead of park without engaging the parking brake, then it won't matter whether you can take the key out of the ignition or not. The moment you remove your foot from the brake, the car will roll, unless you are sitting on a very level surface.
It sounds silly to say it maybe, but it's like sailing. You know that, if you fall off the boat, you will very likely die. So, what do you do? Live in terror of falling off the boat? Never move unless safety-wired to the boat? Maybe. But the best solution is to use that knowledge and fear to learn never to fall off the boat! Hang on and think at all times. The alternative could be death, so it's worth the effort.
The same can be said for learning not to fall asleep at the wheel and, yes, to put the car into Park and engage the parking brake each and every time you plan on leaving the vehicle.
I honestly don't mean to sound condescending, but listen, those who find this too difficult to manage are likely not to have to worry about such things any more....
I too congratulate you Dako, but unlike mitch I am not being sarcastic. (relax, mitch, I'm not attacking you). This society has become too sue happy. I'm not sure I think this Honda recall is completely frivolous, but we have all seen our share of ridiculous warnings.
plastic bag: Do not place over head?! anti-moisture, granular, packing material: do not eat?! (gee it looks so tasty!)
...it was enough of an issue to cause a recall. Some recalls start with a limited number of VINs and then expand as more evidence is uncovered. That may happen in this case. Just because his VIN wasn't covered doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
lets not even start about the U.S. and lazy people bringing lawsuits against corporations instead of getting jobs. my favorite is the person that poured hot coffee on their lap and decided to sue because the coffee was hot. they got PAID too! a close second are the tobacoo settlements. blows my mind...
another snowy day, 03 EX V6 Accord sailed right through.
How can I presume that my vehicle should be included in a recall if the manufacturer of the vehicle maintains incredibly detailed computerized database records that indicate that my particular vehicle was NOT manufactured with a recallable component?
The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is just the means of tracking the build history of a specific vehicle. If the VIN indicates that the vehicle was painted red at the factory, why would I suspect that it might be blue? That just doesn't make sense. Same thing with the part that you SUSPECT may be faulty. It's not a defect just because one of us laymen THINK that it MAY be a defect.
And no, before you ask, I have no affiliation with any manufacturer or dealer.
I have a '03 LX Auto sedan and I love this car. I live in central NJ and the Accord has been great so far this winter. Very stable and easy to control. I have to say in response to the Edmunds long-term review that I feel the 4-cyl is wholly adequate for everyday driving. It cruises at 80 mph effortlessly. If I were carrying passengers or heavy loads regularly I would see needing the V-6, but for the general commuting I do the 4 is a great engine.
Honda fought the recall to begin with, saying there was no problem. There were enough complaints to the NHTSA that Honda Corporate was forced to recall all of the 98s and some of the 99s. It all boils down to trying to avoid the cost of a recall.
If enough people complain to the NHTSA, Honda will be forced to expand the recall .
The people on this board have been quite insensitive regarding this serious safety issue. Perhaps one of your children will be run over by a car that is rolling downhill because of a ignition interlock defect. Maybe then you will show some concern?
The same people who forget to put the car in park are probably the same people who push the gas pedal instead of the brake pedal and then want to blame the manufacturer. Besides .....
1. There is a recall for the ignition. 2. I will make a point to watch out for stray Accords rolling downhill when my son is born in a couple of months. 3. The recall was voluntary, not something Honda was forced into.
Have you ever tried to start the car when the engine was already on? Why? I did it a couple times because the engine was so quiet and I forgot I already started the car before I got out of the car and came back in.
The same reason could apply to someone who tried to pull the key out of the ignition while the engine was on.
One I would like to add is this: Are people with manual transmissions endangering lives? They can also leave the car in neutral and remove the key. The KEY is to pay attention.
However, I think it is necessary to make a recall on all items that were improperly designed and could have an effect on safety.
Mitch, what exactly has the dealership said is wrong with your ignition switch? Have you tried to remove your key without returning to park? How did the dealership discover you had a problem (what led you to have them evaluate your car)? Are their technicians the ones who told you that you have the same problem but it isn't covered under the recall?
"3. The recall was voluntary, not something Honda was forced into." A responsible company would want to do that. But I suspect a mandatory recall was on the way. Some TV publicity would help that along.
"Notice that out of 800,000 Accords sold between 98-99 there have been only 3 incidents." That was at the date of the report you linked to. This is wear problem due to poor design; how many more will and already have happened. But then if it's not my car, do I really care what happens to others? Yes...
The way I found out about the problem was when I was stopping at the ATM and my car was rolling down the other side of the parking lot without a driver.
The Honda Corporate shirt said he would throw in the lock parts for free, but would charge me $150 for labor, "because I hadn't done my oil changes at the dealer" and wasn't entitled to any more than that.
I am pretty confident that the recall will expand as soon as more people are aware of the problem and complain to the NHTSA. If someone gets injured in the meantime and sues Honda, so be it . .
Comments
Although only Honda knows for sure, based on past 5 year model cycles, the Accord won't get its styling "refresh" until the 4th year of this generation, which would be 2006.
In contrast, I shopped a Chrysler 300M before buying my 04 Accord LX and was told the man in charge of the list of future cars was new on the job and wasn't sure what they would be receiving. It was such a fabricated story I almost laughed out loud. I don't think car dealerships have any idea of how astonishingly ridiculous they look to any halfway discerning customer when they come up with such evasions. They (and the Honda dealers I shopped were not immune from this) fish around to see if you really are stupid, then if you're not, they reluctantly, step by step, work their way up to an intelligent deal. That's a generalization, of course, but it fits quite a few of the sales situations I've been in during more than 40 years of buying cars, including a range of American and Japanese dealerships.
One really sad ploy occurred with my Honda dealer as we were about to close the deal. She tried to confuse me by putting down the figures in a different way, coming out with a cash difference on the trade of $1,000 more than we had just agreed to. I simply restated what we had agreed was the price on their car and on my trade, and the cash difference. She said, "Hmmmm," looked at her figures again, and finally got it right. One key, to me, is having my own tablet and pen to keep track of the figures so that they make sense to me. If you try to do this in your head, you will probably get confused.
I don't any have problem with car salespeople pushing for the best deal for them -- they're in business to make money, as am I, and I'm basically on their side, and I tell them that. However, the evasions and attempts to be deceptive are what taint the process. I treasure the few sales reps I've dealt with who avoid that as much as possible.
Regarding the mileage....this is really the least of my concerns. It had 150 miles on it, and I understand where they came from. No, bolivar, I didn't think it was going to fly to me. The sarcasm isn't really necessary. They already had the car. They had traded for it before I even came into the picture....please, make sure you have your facts in order before you go on the offensive!
The bumper...again, not a real worry to me. I know it'll be fixed, because I have it in writing. All I was saying is that 1. I want a new from the factory bumper, and 2. I refuse to have that dealership repair it. It'll be repaired at a place of my choice. There's no way I'd let that dealership touch this car again.
FYI there was no "dealer add-on window sticker". This is another complaint I had. I believe it's law that it must be on the vehicle. I don't believe the door edge guards are a Honda product. If they were, it'd take about 2 seconds to pop them off the doors. No, these are some aftermarket things that appear to be applied with an adhesive. That makes it a little less easy to just pop off. I would like paint to remain on the edges of my doors!
I'm not going to verbally assult the elderly lady that struck my vehicle as your sarcastically sugessted. I'm happy that she came to me and admitted to me what happened. In today's society, many people would've just drove off. I know her insurance will take care of it completely...now the question is when they're going to come look at it. It's been nearly a week and nobody yet!
I've relaxed now, knowing that this is a great vehicle and that all my problems WILL be fixed eventually. I do take offense at those who imply that I was not prepared before purchasing this vehicle. Quite the contrary. I did research for months before making this purchase, reading customer reviews, message boards such as this one, taking multiple test drives, etc. I just hope that none of you are ever involved in situation(s) like these. If you are, the BBB is your best bet. It seems to me like Honda won't do squat to resolve this situation except send an email to the dealership saying that they had received a complaint. They said there was nothing they could do when I told them I refused to let this dealership repair my vehicle that they damaged. Whatever, the owner of the dealership is a franchisee. Last I checked, the franchisor could tell them to do whatever. Anyway, it'll be resolved sometime.
Thanks for responding to my posts and for your support (well, most of you).
That is how long it would take to get one from the factory isn't it? According to our experts here. Why is that a lie?
"In fact, he had one less than 6 days later. "
How do you know that he knew this fact at the very moment you and he were having this conversation? He could have checked sure, but you didn't ask hime to do that. Is this still a lie?
Also, ISell said that dealerships can't "order" vehicles from the factory as the salesman informed me.
The technical wording is a matter or semantics. He may have assumed you as the lay person would not understand the difference between a custom factory order and placing a request for a specfic allocation or trading an allocated vehicle with another dealership. A third lie?
"Regarding the mileage....this is really the least of my concerns."
You didn't sound that way several posts ago...
"The bumper...again, not a real worry to me. "
Check your posts back from the beginning. Not the same story you are telling now. Is this a lie?
"FYI there was no "dealer add-on window sticker". This is another complaint I had. I believe it's law that it must be on the vehicle."
How much extra did you pay for these add-ons? You should have gotten that in writing prior to purchase or removed if you didn't like it.
".... the BBB is your best bet. It seems to me like Honda won't do squat to resolve this situation except send an email to the dealership saying that they had received a complaint."
The BBB is paid for by the very businesses that they track complaints on. So they are a resource for you to use but they have a vested interest in keeping the records of their paying business partners clean.
What exactly do you expect Honda North America to do? And Why? You signed the dotted line to get the car that you didn't want. The old lady has nothing to do with Honda. The dealership employee that banged up your bumper also is not a Honda problem.
2. The mileage doesn't bother me as much now because I know the facts. They traded with another dealer who happens to be 125 miles away. Explainable. Is this OK? Thanks for your approval.
3. The bumper WILL be fixed to my approval. This means that a new one will be ordered, and painted by another dealership.
4. Replying to bolivar's assertment that there was a sticker on the vehicle listing the dealer added options and their prices. There wasn't. The price I paid was all inclusive. There wasn't anything on the paperwork like "$60 for door edge guards, $150 for pin stripes".
5. Honda should care. The owner of the dealership and the kid who damaged my vehicle are representatives of Honda. It reflects poorly on them because their franchisees are arrogant (this one anyway). I think Honda can make this or any other dealership do what they say. They tell them how many cars their getting each year, and in what colors, so why can't they tell them that they're going to pay for my vehicle to be repaired elsewhere? I would assume that's part of the franchise agreement: that Honda can shut you down at any time, and you'll do what they tell you. Sort of like McDonalds. They tell you you're going to use cups with McDonalds logo on them, not some generic Solo cup.
6. The BBB: You're right. It's in their best interest to keep organizations records clean. That's why most things get resolved in a satisfactory manner: To make the consumer happy, and to have a good comment in the organizations record.
Again, I appreciate your input, even if you disagree with me. It sometimes helps to see both sides of the story.
My dealer didn't try any hijinks, but obviously some do, so it's best to know exactly what you're getting yourself into before you sign.
I just hope that a month from now you'll forget about the rocky start!
hji: Understand, as I stated above, that I am not a lawyer, but you might want to check out small claims court. In some states a corporation (such as the dealer undoubtedly is) would be required to be represented by an attorney in any small claims court action. That will certainly cost them much more than the $150 you seek for justice. If you are mad enough, don't mind the hassle of finding out what it takes, and pursue a small claims court filing; you might find the dealer only too eager to give you your money back after they receive the summons! ;-) (They also might surprise you with their amiable response; many such business people consider pushing hard as just being part of the game and do not take it personally. Shucks, they might even admire you for it!) Good luck.
Barry S.
If I was in your situation, I would feel exactly the same way you do.
You seem to be handling the situation as well as can be expected, and I wish you the best on your repair. I hope your ownership experience improves dramatically from this point.
Honda cannot just tell them what to do or just shut them down. Both sides have to follow the conditions set out in their contract.
I had no intention to pick on anyone. My only point is that looking to Honda corporate to do much in the way of policing their dealers is pretty much another exercise in frustration. It seems there is enough frustration already being experienced without "tilting at windmills."
The auto dealer maintains a much greater level of autonomy than a franchisee. Yes the manufacturer exerts some level of pressure regarding minimum inventory and allocation but the relationship is much more independent.
As you said: "My only point is that looking to Honda corporate to do much in the way of policing their dealers is pretty much another exercise in frustration." which is my point - the manufacturer can do little to punish a dealer unless the dealer is in gross violation of its contract.
Not very long ago, buying a car for me was an event almost in the magnitude of buying a house (actually it may still be, because buying a car is a lot more enjoyable).
Case in point: as early as July 1997 (and not as internet-active then), the Businessweek article on the 6th gen Accord was the first thing I read on that mag. My sons and wife were often the unwilling audience for my thoughts and opinions of the car.
Finally, Sep 97 came and we were at the car dealership (Gwinnett Place Honda in metro Atlanta, biggest in SE), waiting eagerly after the pre-delivery prep to drive home the best and the newest.
But wait, they had drilled holes in the front bumper for a license plate holder, something you don't need in rear-plate-only Georgia, to secure of course the dealer's label plate.
I complained, because the car didn't have the holes when I picked it off the lot, and the dealer complied by replacing my bumper with one that came from a same-color car in the lot.
What I learned: if possible, buy from a volume dealer - because their prices are often better to start with, and they have more flexibility to deal with customer issues.
Let me guess, "if we order a car, or designate destination on a particular model, it'll be 60-90 days"....but then after doing a dealer locate, they had one in a week.
What's the problem here?
TEAM Honda in Lithia Springs is kinda soso. I don't trust the service center there at all.
Don't you just love attorneys who think of these loopholes to screw the consumer?
I felt if they didn't pay me to advertise their dealership, I don't drive a rolling billboard.
BTW: saw a trailer with four sides of lighted, revolving billboards being towed around town during rushhouse last Friday. It rotated messages just like the changing billboards along a highway. What a distraction because of the lighting and the changing messages...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It worked out well for me though, as my dealer had not affixed any other advertising on my recently-purchases Yukon XL and then had to remove the non-complying license plate frame as well. Result is a pristine paint job and no unwelcome advertising as I drive (Even so, I'm not ashamed to say that the dealer is Ewing GMC/Buick/Pontiac in Plano, TX. They have treated me very well so far.)
Sometines when I see a new car somebody bought at work you see the dealers little paper advertisement in the middle of the liscence plate and the next day you don't see it. I guess the owners just take the little card board paper out of the middle of the liscence plate.
There is a recall, but Honda won't cover me because only half the VINs for 1999 are covered! Talk about poor customer service!
Honda only started the re call because of complaints to the NHTSA.
Why can't Honda Corporate do the right thing and fix this manufacturing defect? It could be dangerous.
If your VIN is not covered it isn't because Honda is being cheap, the part in your car is not in need of repair.
Sox, I am guessing you are a Honda Corporate employee?
If your dealer is telling you that your ignition is bad, yet your VIN is not in the range, then your either your ignition problem either has nothing to do with the recall or he/she is trying to trick you into paying for some maintenance you do not need.
Have you tried pulling your key out with the car in drive?
I do own an Accord, in fact my '99 had the recall you are referring to. And while I cannot state this as fact without knowing your VIN and looking up the recall notice, my point is that the reason only certain VINs are covered for a given recall is because they are the only cars that the "faulty" part in question was installed. While all Accords will have an igntion switch, not all of these were made by the same vendor and/or were from the same lot # shown to have the problem.
If your VIN is not covered, yet the same part is defective, either the problem with your switch is different than that covered by the recall, or Honda has a problem with more switches than they are acknowledging. If the problem with your switch is the same cause/effect as the recall, contact Honda and scream bloody murder. I am on your side in this regard. However, if the defect in your switch is not the same as that of the recall, then I think it just has to be considered bad luck unless you can show this is cropping up consistently in other vehicles.
I've been driving for almost 35 years now and not once in all that time have I snagged anything on the keys in the ignition, hit it with any part of my body in such a way as might potentially dislodge the key from the ignition, nor in any other way had anything whatever happen that could in my wildest imaginings dislodge the key from the ignition.
Are attorneys having so much trouble earning income that they are now actively attempting stupid things to sue about? Or is it just that we have, as a society, lost so much of our sense of personal responsibility that anything and everything idiotic that might cross our thoughtless "minds" to do must be something that "they" are required to protect us from?!?
Soon to be seen on kitchen knives: "WARNING! poking this utensil into your eye might cause blindness or death!" Sheesh....
My congratulations to you. You sound like a perfect human being.
Us mortals do make mistakes and leave the car in Neutral when it should be in Park. A bad accident can result if the car rolls downhill.
I have a bad opinion of Honda Corporate. They are being shortminded in not covering the entire VIN run. I have put in a official complaint with the NHTSA regarding this. If enough people do likewise, Honda will have to expand the recall.
This could cause serious damage if you have a 99 or 98 Accord.
It sounds silly to say it maybe, but it's like sailing. You know that, if you fall off the boat, you will very likely die. So, what do you do? Live in terror of falling off the boat? Never move unless safety-wired to the boat? Maybe. But the best solution is to use that knowledge and fear to learn never to fall off the boat! Hang on and think at all times. The alternative could be death, so it's worth the effort.
The same can be said for learning not to fall asleep at the wheel and, yes, to put the car into Park and engage the parking brake each and every time you plan on leaving the vehicle.
I honestly don't mean to sound condescending, but listen, those who find this too difficult to manage are likely not to have to worry about such things any more....
(relax, mitch, I'm not attacking you).
This society has become too sue happy. I'm not sure I think this Honda recall is completely frivolous, but we have all seen our share of ridiculous warnings.
plastic bag: Do not place over head?!
anti-moisture, granular, packing material: do not eat?! (gee it looks so tasty!)
another snowy day, 03 EX V6 Accord sailed right through.
Please help me try to understand your position.
How can I presume that my vehicle should be included in a recall if the manufacturer of the vehicle maintains incredibly detailed computerized database records that indicate that my particular vehicle was NOT manufactured with a recallable component?
The Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) is just the means of tracking the build history of a specific vehicle. If the VIN indicates that the vehicle was painted red at the factory, why would I suspect that it might be blue? That just doesn't make sense. Same thing with the part that you SUSPECT may be faulty. It's not a defect just because one of us laymen THINK that it MAY be a defect.
And no, before you ask, I have no affiliation with any manufacturer or dealer.
If enough people complain to the NHTSA, Honda will be forced to expand the recall .
The people on this board have been quite insensitive regarding this serious safety issue. Perhaps one of your children will be run over by a car that is rolling downhill because of a ignition interlock defect. Maybe then you will show some concern?
1. There is a recall for the ignition.
2. I will make a point to watch out for stray Accords rolling downhill when my son is born in a couple of months.
3. The recall was voluntary, not something Honda was forced into.
http://www.s2ki.com/user/content/view/full/368
Notice that out of 800,000 Accords sold between 98-99 there have been only 3 incidents.
I did it a couple times because the engine was so quiet and I forgot I already started the car before I got out of the car and came back in.
The same reason could apply to someone who tried to pull the key out of the ignition while the engine was on.
One I would like to add is this: Are people with manual transmissions endangering lives? They can also leave the car in neutral and remove the key. The KEY is to pay attention.
However, I think it is necessary to make a recall on all items that were improperly designed and could have an effect on safety.
Mitch, what exactly has the dealership said is wrong with your ignition switch? Have you tried to remove your key without returning to park? How did the dealership discover you had a problem (what led you to have them evaluate your car)? Are their technicians the ones who told you that you have the same problem but it isn't covered under the recall?
My Trailblazer's recall was because the parking pawl would not engage fully in park, so you could roll in park... =oP
A responsible company would want to do that. But I suspect a mandatory recall was on the way. Some TV publicity would help that along.
"Notice that out of 800,000 Accords sold between 98-99 there have been only 3 incidents."
That was at the date of the report you linked to.
This is wear problem due to poor design; how many more will and already have happened. But then if it's not my car, do I really care what happens to others? Yes...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The Honda Corporate shirt said he would throw in the lock parts for free, but would charge me $150 for labor, "because I hadn't done my oil changes at the dealer" and wasn't entitled to any more than that.
I am pretty confident that the recall will expand as soon as more people are aware of the problem and complain to the NHTSA. If someone gets injured in the meantime and sues Honda, so be it . .