BMW 5-Series Sedans

riez · January 2002

Happened to stop by local BMW dealer. Wife interested in getting some accessories for her 323iA (e.g., fog lights and maybe PDC). Was getting some price quotes. Made sure they knew I am a BMW Car Club of America member in order to get the 10 percent parts discount. Decided to get my wife a small gift on my holiday off. She wanted a BMW coffee mug and BMW covered-plastic travelling mug. Got the 10% on both. Saved me a couple bucks. If you aren't a member, you should learn more about them. Great magazine (Roundel), lots of local chapters (I've been contacted by mine already and am going to the upcoming annual meeting), and the discounts.

riez · January 2002

Thinking about one for my 540i 6-speed. Anyone put one on? How do you like it? Looks? Function? Harder to keep area clean? Has been too cold to really try out my sunroof at speed so far since I got her. Thinking I might get one right before winter ends.

lmbmw · January 2002

Abyoung, thanks for your advice.
I am in the market for 530i, i know the price is very high in bay area. when i serached this board, i found people got the cars from Cutter Motors in Santa Barbara, my question is below.
1. i am living bay area, how to deal with a salesman who is in Santa Barbara, i need to directly go there? by phone? internet?
2, how to pick up the car? go there again or by truck deliver. i need pay deposit or not.
3. could you tell me the sale name who i can contact?
4. if i buy the 530i here, do you mind tell me how much off MSRP for East Bay dealer.
anyway, i would like to buy the car from Santa Barbara, but i don't know how to process it.
Thanks again.
lmbmw

snagiel · January 2002

Jon Shafer posts up on bimmer.org all the time, and he enjoys a strong reputation there. I'm sure he'd treat you fairly.
You may also want to consider giving Steve Diamond (www.eurobuyers.com) a call; if you're willing to drive a few hours' worth to another dealer, he can get you a very good rate from a well-respected dealer. Of the people who've tried the service, everyone seems to love it.
Good luck.

john01 · January 2002

anything that has "black", you can bet it will be a pain to keep clean. Both my wife and I had black cars, and no matter what shade it is, you better like washing your car every week. Hey, but if you like it, then who cares.

comfort seats - I got them on mine, along with active seat option (butt massage) because I drive a few hundred mile trips every month or so and wanted to be comfortable. I liked the sport seats very much, the way it hugs your body, but not sure if it would have been comfortable after 4-5 hours. Just my feeling, but I heard of a guy who wanted to trade his sport seats with someone else for comfort seats because of back pain.

Navigation - I got them, ONLY because I am living in Germany for the next 3 years, and it is great in Europe. Had I been in the states, no way, but it worked very well here when I test drove it. Plus my wife is a bad navigator and I did not want to remind her every time we take a trip.

Upgrade stereo-the base stereo was awful to us. We upgraded to DSP, but may end up replacing the sub woofer with the M Audio upgrade subs from M5. It is a simple swap for cars with DSP.

Sports pkg.-I would not have the car without it. It is not because I try to make every turn with perfect apex, but the overall feeling of the car. It feels more planted, and stable in every situation. I test drove one with a 18 inch wheels over a cobble stone street and it was still quite comfortable and absorbed bumps well.

Winter tires-this is purely for safety. Can't say it is fair to talk about the handling with the winter tires on. shipo is quite knowledgeable on this subject (it was a heated discussion on 3 series board a week or 2 ago) but based on the temperature and the amount of snow you experience, you may or may not want to get the winters, but rather stay with all seasons. I am thinking of getting H-rated snows since some of the driving involves Autobahn, and will also get a pair of chains for drive to the Alps, just in case. A German TV showed comparison between cars with chains on snow tires and without on a few inches of powder. On a slight down hill tight-180 turn, RAV4 or a FWD minivan could not make the turn even at around 20 miles.

Our 530i is due here this week and has the following:

Sports pkg
Premium pkg
Cold pkg
Comfort seat w/ Active seat
Sunshade (if you have children, a must)
Nav, Xenon, PDC, CD changer

So everything on the list except the folddown rear seat. At this price range, this is a mostly a "want" than a "need" to us. Based on a need, a Camry or Maxima would have served just as well, with more room.

jim52 · January 2002

A few posts back someone said that BWW increased the invoice pricing by 1%. Has this been updated in Edmund's or should I add 1% to the base invoice and all options myself.

snagiel · January 2002

Good question; I just checked on Edmunds, and compared to my original numbers (I bought in December '01, prior to the updated invoice pricing). It appears the numbers posted here are the old ones (both for base invoice and all options).

I don't remember seeing the updated numbers anywhere, but 1% is a good approximation. If you go to a good dealer (Athens BMW, in my case), they'll share the invoice prices with you because those aren't the same "weapon" they used to be.

parrow · January 2002

I live in Los Angeles and purchased a 530iA from Cutter last month. It couldn't be easier. I did the deal in 15 minutes over the phone, and gave them a modest (refundable) deposit. The next weekend, I simply picked up the car. Talk to Jon Schaffer or Franco Karzag.

stooxie · January 2002

Let me preface this buy saying that I love the sport packages, but...

I agree with bogeyfree66 about the sport package. I had a '99 328 w/sport package before my '01 525 w/out.

The 328 was fantasic in dry conditions, brilliant in wet and deadly in snow/ice. Those fat tires and stiff sidewalls are better than skis for sliding around on ice and snow. (Everyone can spare me the "they're not meant for winter driving" speech).

Another thing to keep in mind is that low-profile tires/alloys and potholes don't mix. In the 328 we hit some unavoidable potholes in DC and subsequently sent three of the alloys off to be repaired. They were just little dings, but enough of a bend to feel it in the steering wheel.

I think the bottom line is this. In a BMW, the sport package is a good option, IF your driving style warrants it AND you resign yourself to buying a set of -1 snow tires. The traction control will be useless (I don't care how good a driver you are) if you have sport tires in snow.
Unless you are fairly luck, the Sport package will cost you more money in the end.

vanalder · January 2002

The revised prices are posted (both ED and U.S.) on Steve Diamond's site at:

http:\\www.eurobuyers.com

lmbmw · January 2002

Thanks Parrow, the car you got from Cutter was in the dealer's lot or they ordered for you, both of them get same discount or only for the car in their lot?
Thanks again

seqedg · January 2002

HOW DO YOU KNOW IT WILL NOT BE AVAIL UNTIL 2004 - DOES THIS MEAN THAT THE 2003 5 SERIES WILL BE RELATIVELY UNCHANGED FROM THE 2002 MODEL?

parrow · January 2002

Mine was dealer stock and purchased just before the end of the year/quarter. I was told that Cutter's stock of 530's usually have step, sport, premium and xenon. That's exactly what I wanted, and was somewhat flexible on color. When I called, they had a silver one, which was high on my color list. I don't know if the same discount would otherwise be available. From what I can tell based on my discussions with them and reading the boards (Edmunds, Bimmer.net, etc) I think their prices are hard to beat.

jim52 · January 2002

From the link above it looks like the base invoice went up by 1% while the invoice on options went up by 7%. The result is an increase of around $850 on the invoice of the car I wanted. I wish I saw this coming.

riez · January 2002

1. If you use a credit card and want to save some money when buying a new or used car, you might check out Citibank's Driver's Edge Card. Mine's a MasterCard. Think I get a 2 percent rebate on all purchases. In yesterday's mail I was quite pleased when my Citibank Driver's Edge credit card rebate cheque arrived, $407. When I bought my CPO 540iM on 11/30/01 I had forgotten that I could use this card's accumulated rebate dollars on both new and used cars. Thought about it near New Years and was glad I had 60 days from purchase to file the claim. Easy & painless to do; quick response.

2. Has anyone gotten the BMW Financial Services Credit Card? Signed up for the rebate program? Used the rebate program? I've gotten some printed info on it, but it doesn't give details on the rebate percentage and how much you can earn over time or apply at one time. Mentions a $50 annual fee to get rebate. Anyone who has it gotten the fee waived or reduced?

compwhiz · January 2002

FYI - riez is right. However, Drivers Edge used to offer 2% rebates to Charter members(myself included). Now, it's only 1%, which makes it an "average" rewards card that is no better than any other cards that offer some sort of 1% rebate.
Also, if you have Drivers Edge card - starting this year you can also redeem your rebates on car maintenance - if you take it in to the dealer for service/repairs, you can redeem your rebates towards that as well.

I have serious doubts about "usefulness" of the BMW FS Credit Card. No card issuer waives annual fees for "reward" cards if they already exist, and the BMW deal doesn't seem to be particularly rewarding. Considering that you will plunk down $200 in annual fees over 4 years just to get the rewards - I think 2% deal with Citibank is a much better deal(that's for you, riez).

nyccarguy · January 2002

I've been a Driver's Edge member for a few years now and they only give a 1% rebate.

compwhiz · January 2002

Well, define a few years. I'm sure I've gotten my Drivers Edge car in 1999, and I was able to get in under charter terms with 2% rebate. It doesn't matter for new members though - it's 1% for new members now. But I'm sure you can call and [non-permissible content removed] to them

brucec35 · January 2002

My wife's '98 5 series is now giving her "check brake lights" messages. I've inspected and changed the bulbs, and all the lights work fine. I didn't use OEM bulbs, however, since it's hard to get over to a dealer (45 min drive) and I can't find a source online. Is there any other problem I'm overlooking? I have an extended warranty that will cover this but I'd like to clear it up myself if there's an easy fix, and avoid having it at a shop for days. We may be selling it soon ('98 540i 6 speed sport, 65K mi, artic silver/gray int, sun shades, premium sound/cd, professional legal tint, new Dunlops, all service records, nice car!) and I need to fix this so it won't scare off buyers. It runs perfectly, otherwise, we just need the cash for other things now. Like food

Anyone know a website for tech problems like this?

cjscpa · January 2002

I'm looking to lease a 2002 525i w/o the sports package. I've heard concerns about how well it handles in snowy condidtions. Can anyone give me some feedback on their experience.

dantlo · January 2002

How much are you asking for the 540i? What state are you in?
Dan

nyccarguy · January 2002

I've been a member since '98 of the Driver's Egde program.

cb44 · January 2002

The 5 series at it's core is virtually the same as any other RWD sedan of the same weight when it comes to snow capabilities. The suitability of these cars in snow is more a matter of tires and the physics of traction, than BMW's being poor in snow.

Cars without the Sports Package ship with all-season tires, which give fair traction in light snow (just as they would on any other RWD car). The Sports Package includes summer tires that give up snow traction for excellent dry performance. Drives in heavy snow areas would need a pair of snow or all-season tires or risk enhancing BMW's image of poor bad weather traction.

Performance tires on an SUV would render it as helpless in snow, so make these weather-related decisions more on the tire supplied as opposed to the type of car.

tlam625 · January 2002

Change bulbs for both sides if you have not already done so.

plina · January 2002

Riez I live in NYC so my car is always garaged no problems on that.
John I would love to get the car with 18 inch tires but it does not come like that here. Tell me how can I get an M audio upgrade I have not seen it anywhere?
Now for some genera questions what dealers do you recommend in NYC or NJ? and have anyone had experience with multiple security deposits in NYC and NJ? I like this idea it will help me lower my payments considerably.
When I come back from my long vacation I'm going to test drive both the 530iA and 540iA and see what happens.
I read on a prior post about European delivery I called BMW customer service and I was told that you get a 7% discount for the program.

riez · January 2002

brucec35... Check out the bimmer.roadfly.org website. Great specific boards for darn near every BMW made going back decades. There is a dedicated E39 5 Series Board. Lots of tech heads hand out there. You might also try BMW CCA.

riez · January 2002

I was and still am a charter member of GM Card and was a charter member of the Ford Card. Don't remember when Ford Card was turned into Citibank Driver's Edge (was it '98 or '99), but I became a charter member of that as well. That must get me the 2 percent rebate rate. I love GM's 5 percent! Too bad they just don't have many decent cars (and that I need a sedan or I'd get a Corvette Z06!).

brucec35 · January 2002

I'm near Atlanta, in Cumming, GA. Sorry to do this here, but I need an email to contact you otherwise. $31,000 firm, since I just put on new Dunlop SP 2000e's and did a 4 wheel alignment on it. If it doesn't bring that, I'll probably wait till Fall and burn off some of those tires, which isn't the worst thing I could suffer through....8 more months driving a 540.

Thanks for the bulb help, guys. I have to get a new set of bulbs from the dealer. I've replaced a few of them since my local Auto parts place only had a few. I bet it might be the resistance in the aftermarket bulbs or corrosion.

brucec32@bellsouth.net

nyccarguy · January 2002

525 & 530 use a Rack & Pinion setup
540 uses a Recirculating Ball setup
What does the M5 use? I thought it would be R&P, but have heard otherwise.

riez · January 2002

M5's steering has been universally praised. As has its 6-speed manual.

1/99 issue of Automobile, test of then new M5: "STEERING: Recirculating-ball, variable-power assist". But don't worry. There is nothing wrong with RB vs R&P. As the March 2000 issue of C&D reported: "... a quicker steering ratio... Although the M5's steering feels slightly vague at first, we all quickly grew fond of it. This car became the favorite of the three drivers when the going got fast and challenging." Or read the March 2001 test in Motor Trend: "it proved the fastest (and easiest to drive) through our 600-ft slalom."

nyccarguy · January 2002

are always dogging the E55, E Class, & previous generation ('94-'00) C Class MBs as well for their recirculating ball steering. I guess it all has to do with the steering ratio. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

snagiel · January 2002

Well, yes and no. First, let's face the fact BMW uses RB on the 540 and M5 not because they prefer to (or because its the best) but rather because of space limitations with those monster engines. It's a relatively antiquated steering system and, while BMW certainly refined it as much as possible, it still lacks the precise on-center feel and telepathic-like reflexes their (equally refined) R&P systems have on the 3 and rest of the 5 series. I'm not saying the M5 will steer like a Ford F-450, but many people (and automotive writers) have discerned a tangible difference. Honestly, if I had the money, I think 400 horsepower would be a trivial price to pay for a slightly less divine steering setup, but it is what it is.

nyccarguy · January 2002

I've read that the Recirculating Ball steering (In MBs at least) have dead on center feel, but lack the telepathic reflexes of the R&P.

indylowflyer · January 2002

The 540i has very good steering with a dead on-center feel. I never had a car that tracks so straight. Take your hands off the wheel and it seems like it will go in a perfectly straight line for ever. IMO, the RB has a very good, solid feeling. The steering is tight and precise.

john01 · January 2002

For M audio upgrade on a E39 equipped with DSP, you simply buy the subwoofers and replace your factory units. The part numbers is 65-13-7-894-047. You will need 2 of them and it goes for about $190 or so.

In Germany, you can pretty much have whatever wheels you want. The one I drove had a 18 inch style 42 wheels (sports pkg wheels on 530) and they looked very nice. It was tempting, but with the price of tires at that size and the increased possibility of bent rims, I decided against it.

530bmw · January 2002

can deep scratches on alloy wheels be repaired, and where can I get repaired?

Is there a cleaner for cleaning brake pad dust accumulated on the wheels? Especially, the kind that you can spray on and rinse with water. It seems to me that I have to clean them weekly, how do you guys keep them clean without too much hassel?

john01 · January 2002

Your best bet is to thoroughly clean them and wax them so that the next time you clean them, it will be easy as a spray of water. Many use PS21 and seem to like it. Those spray and water types in stores do more harm than good. Some are just HCL/hydrocloric acid.

riez · January 2002

I really don't care whether it is RB or R&P. Nor would I care if it had drum versus disc brakes. Just as long as whatever is used works well and keeps the car at the head of the class in actual RESULTS. When I posted the above message citing some highly positive comments about the M5's RB steering, I could've posted a dozen more saying the same thing about the 540i's RB steering. Don't think I have ever read a published report that faulted its steering. Isn't that all that counts? That M5 beat out the steering in comparison to Porsche and MB AMG products. That is high level competition. So would you rather have a poorer performing R&P system that seems more advanced, or a RB system that works perfectly? I'll take function over form any day! Or results over tech specs and acronymns any day. Could BMW make a great R&P unit for the 540i or M5? I'm guessing they could and probably will for the next generation. But that doesn't detract from how good the current 540i's steering rack is today!

snagiel · January 2002

As usual, you commit the straw man fallacy and misreprent what I said. Reread my post. Go ahead, I'm waiting. I never said anything about form over function. I specifically said the 540's/M5's RB system was highly refined, but that it was nevertheless a compromise. That does not mean it can't compete well against other cars, only that it's not the best conceivable option, that's all. I was comparing it to the steering systems NOT OF OTHER MANUFACTURERS but rather against BMW's own R&P systems, which have been praised in the 3- and rest of the 5-series as about the best out there. As good as it may be in the 540/M5, people who've driven both (and are observant drivers) would most likely recognize the superiority of the R&P system. Go ahead, I can't wait to read how it's better than the E55 AMG's system.

riez · January 2002

snagiel... They all praise the steering! All the 525i, 528i, and 530i reviews do same, too. There is nothing that makes one better than the other. Both are great! You keep saying and implying the 540i and M5 lack something with the RB steering. But no one publishes any complaints and they get universal praise! Check out the comparison tests with 540i versus great competitors or M5. And since there is no R&P in a 540i or M5, it is physically impossible to compare a R&P 540i to a RB 540i (or M5). So you have to compare it to its natural competition.

millerro3 · January 2002

but I wanted to bring to light something.

BMW feels that a rack and pinion setup is superior to the recirculating ball, because it gives better road feel, less on center play, etc..

The new 7 series uses rack and pinion, and I'm sure the new 5 series will follow

fwiw

Rob

lmbmw · January 2002

I am an new one, after I read this board, I really love the BMW 5 series, I am going to buy a 530iA, but I am confusing now for a Sport Package, I have three simple question here,
1. I know SP could not run in snow weather, but I am living in CA, I just RARELY drive in snow condition such as go to sierra mountain. Is Sport Package OK or not ?
2. I heard even in the rain season, the SP's tires won't work well, is it true? because it is rain season in winter in CA.
3. I got information also, the sport tires need replace very often, usually, how long time or how many mileage we need change whole set tires? how much it cost?
i am appreciated for you help.

riez · January 2002

millerro3... I've read quotes from BMW engineeers and others who take great pride in the 5 Series' RB steering. MB used it effectively for a long, long time, too. (Thinking I remember reading 1970's reviews of MB vehicles when they used W&R steering.) Sometimes not all change is necessarily progress. (Notice how the new 7 Series is taking huge negative hits for both its styling and the idrive?) Sometimes it is done due to perceptual issues. Keeping Up With the Joneses! Everyone feels R&P is somehow superior, ergo....

riez · January 2002

Pulled out my dog-earred copy of the "Motor Road Test Annual 1978" (UK). A huge compendium of just road tests and comparison tests of European cars. Tests BMW 320, 323i, 520, 528, and 728.

The 320 and 323i used rack & pinion steering.
The 520 and 528 used worm & roller steering.
The 728 used recirculating ball steering.

Here's their description of 728's RB steering, which got a highest 5 Star rating: "when you're moving at more normal speeds, it becomes pleasantly light and the low gearing becomes masked by the car's overall responsiveness.... The steering also has an unusual degree of feel by power-assisted standards, for you can detect through a lightening of the steering when the front wheels lose adhesion on a slippery patch."

Here's what they said about the 520's W&R steering: "Its non-assisted worm and roller steering is heavy when parking, but light and responsive on the move...."

Here's what they said about the 320's R&P steering: "The steering is precise and highly responsive, and only becomes mildly heavy at parking speeds."

snagiel · January 2002

Oh, THAT settles it: a 23-year-old article discussing models and components long ago shelved. For the third time (since you keep ignoring this), I'm not saying the 540's and M5's steering systems aren't precise or balanced, just that a R&P system WOULD BE BETTER. You're right, no one's tested a R&P M5 versus an RB M5, but those who've driven, say, both a 530 and a 540 have observed the 530's is marginally--yet noticeably--better.

Internet Auto Guide on the 528 and 540: "Both versions react crisply to steering inputs, with a tiny subjective edge in feel going to the 528i, which has rack and pinion steering instead of the recirculating-ball setup found in the 540i."

Racecar (UK) on the 540: "...the recirculating ball power-steering in the 535i/540i is less tactile than the rack and pinion system used in the six-cylinder 5-Series cars."

Autofinder (Ireland) on the X5: "The X5 was the first V8-engined BMW with rack and pinion steering rather than recirculating ball, showing how serious they were about sporty on-road feel."

indylowflyer · January 2002

IMO, the sport package makes the car! I live in the midwest with winter driving/pot holes and I am very happy I opted for the sport package. I would certainly get this option if I lived in CA. You also get other features included in thr sp option.(M steering wheel, sport seats to name a few)

In reality any 5-series model sport or non-sport is an awesome vehicle. Any way you option your 5er, you can't go wrong.

snagiel · January 2002

I agree with indylowflyer: The sport package MAKES the car. Test drive both versions (hopefully with a dealer who'll let you wring it out a little), and you'll see (and feel) the difference. As for your concerns:

1) Snow: First, while I haven't driven my new 530i in the white stuff (live in Atlanta), the sport package needlessly gets a bad rap. BMW makes it clear the sport package tires are for summer (performance) driving, so many people assume the standard "all-seasons" are good in snow, when in fact they're just an overall compromise (do you wear the same pair of shoes year-round?). People who live in snowy areas should get snow/ice/winter tires regardless of sport package or not for maximum traction and safety.

2) Rain: The sport tires are more than good in rain--they're excellent. For the past week, it's been pouring every day here in Atlanta. My 530i hasn't slipped or engaged DSC once, and has exhibited excellent resistance to hydroplanning on very wet highways even at 70+ mph.

3) Tire wear: Depending on your driving style (and the roads you take), sport package tires will last between 20k and 30k miles (assuming you keep them on continuously--would be longer if you rotated with winter tires). Yes, it'll cost you a few hundred every 18-24 months, but I (and most enthusiasts) think it's a fair price to pay for the awesome performance the sport package.

riez · January 2002

snagiel... The old Motor data was part historical fun and part showing that a good basic design and great execution can lead to similar results regardless of whether RB, R&W, or R&P used. BMW used all 3 in '78 and each system was praised.

There are some significant differences between 525i/528i/530i and 540i. Weight. Fore/aft center of gravity. Tire sizes. Some portions of 540i front suspension are heavier tubular steel versus aluminum, etc.

2/97 Motor Trend '97 ICOY issue wherein 5 Series won, discussing both 528i and 540i: "Despite a bit of low-speed on-center deadness, once rolling EACH SYSTEM provides good driver feedback."

12/95 Road & Track: "the 540i will continue with recirculating-ball steering because BMW says it offers 'a more luxurious' feel."

3/98 Motor Trend Comparison Test of 540i6 vs. Lexus GS400, Jag XJR, MB E430 Sport, and Cadillac STS. 540i6 got the only "A+" in the Report Card for "Steering". GS400 next best with a "B+" and E430 a "B". XJR a "C+". STS a "C". Guess what, 540i6 was the ONLY car with RB steering! The others each had R&P!!!

john01 · January 2002

I think you might be missing what the other person said. No doubt 540 has a good steering system, but when possible, BMW will fit rack and pinion over recirculating ball. Your quotes still does not account for the fact that BMW just could not fit the R&P due to space limitations, as pointed out in earlier post.

habitat1 · January 2002

..undermines your credibility.

Over on the Nissan Maxima forum just two weeks ago (post #3841, I think), you berated the Maxima not using fully independent rear suspension. You attacked it from a purely technical standpoint, and disregarded the "proof in the pudding" real world examples of how a Maxima SE will match or outhandle just about any other front wheel drive sedan made. Now that the tables are turned and you happen to own a 540i, we should forget the technical superiority of rack and pinion and just look at results?

I'm confused. Which way do you want it?

P.S. Please don't confuse my comments as a slap against the 540i. It is an exceptional car and I would gladly trade you my Maxima SE for your 540i, as long as I can keep my S2000!! But I am one of those who happens to like the steering feel of the 530i slightly better. Had I elected to replace my Maxima, I would have gone with the 530i sport, in spite of the fact that the 540i was my original choice. And I am pretty sure that even BMW would admit to being able to use rack and pinion technology to produce better "results" than recirculating ball steering. Never mind that their recirculating ball results are better than just about everybody else's rack and pinion results.

PPS - Be careful about quoting articles that compliment the 540i steering feedback as "more luxurious" or "lighter". That's not what I think most of us here want. I'm sure most of us would happily flex our muscles some relative to parking a car in order to get a tighter, more responsive feel at higher speeds.

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