BMW 5-Series Sedans

john01 · January 2002

Nice to hear from you. I see you are still around. Sounds like you are having lots of fun with your new toy. A friend of mine in the DC area bought one a few months ago. I was hoping do "see" it when I was home for Christmas, but missed it.

My, correction, my wife's 530 is due any minute. It was in production last week, so we are impatiently waiting for the arrival.

Off the subject, since I remember your interest in the E-class, I received a brochure for the new E. It would have been a very difficult choice, had it been available 3 months ago. I am sure it will have its share of the "new car kinks" but I like the way it looks, and the interior is quite nice.

scoutlab · January 2002

I am expecting delivery of the 530i (5sp, SP, PP, nav, xeon) I ordered in early November within the week. I like the feature of the BMW cellphone but can't justify paying $1,500 just to get the special features (steering wheel controls, nav panel access to telephone numbers). The BMW website shows two components, the phone at $595 and the accessory components at $595. The phone appears to be a Motorola Star-Tac, which I already have. Does anyone have the BMW phone? If so, is it worth the money? Also, does anyone know if there is an aftermarket kit that allows you to access the assorted features?
Finally, thanks to those who warned about their experiences in the snow with the sport package. I plan to go skiing with the family in Vermont in a few weeks. But for the postings on this site, I probably would have taken the new car. Instead, I'll take my FWD Acura.

hoos1 · January 2002

Who do you recommend in the Atl area - mainly Global, Chris or United? Thinking about a 530 or X5 3.0 - any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

snagiel · January 2002

First, the car: I bought a 530, and can without reservation say it's an amazing car. Best one (albeit the most expensive) I've ever bought. It puts a smile on every time I drive it. Honestly, I'm skeptical about SUVs (SAV's as well!). I think it's more of a fad than anything else, and for most people they aren't a compelling choice. About the only people I'd recommend them for are ones who routinely drive not only in snow but mud/gravel/unpaved roads, and who sometimes need to haul a small boat or other things around. If you need the space, I'd recommend the 525/540 wagon (more volume, actually, than the X5). The 5-series, 6-cylinder or 8, wagon or sedan, are all much lighter than the X5 and have a lower center of gravity, providing them with much nimbler, more secure, safe, and fun handling characteristics than the X5.

Now, as for dealers: I actually ended up with Athens BMW (dealer's name was Mike Horsman). Initially, I went there because I put a deposit down for an M3, and they had a shorter line than the other dealers in town. However, I'm glad I did go there. They're extremely friendly, professional, and pressure-free (unlike Global and United, from my experience). Here's why:

- Buying the 530 couldn't have been easier. Mike let me drive a 330, a 530, a 525, and anything else I would've wanted. Alone. He handed me the keys and that's it (granted, he still had my M3 deposit). Negotiations were a breeze: I brought my invoice list prices for all the options, and surprisingly he was happy to verify them (they were all correct), and he set a reasonable amount over invoice ($2500; about $3300 off MSRP), which I felt was fair, so I took it.

- Delivery: I opted for the Performance Center Delivery in Spartanburg, SC. I heartily recommend this (free) option: it's unbelievably fun and educational...infinitely better than just picking up the keys from the dealer and driving off. Anyway, BMW pays for the program, meals, and hotel stay, but not for the transport to Spartanburg. Athens sent a driver (in a 330) to pick me and a friend up from Atlanta and bring us there the night before, complimentary. He even refused a tip.

- Service: I was concerned about the distance, but Mike assured me 70% of their customers live in the Atlanta area, and for service calls they'll send a driver out to pick your car up, and leave you with a loaner. As long as you own the car, not only during the warranty.

I couldn't be more pleased with them. Tell Mike I (Shahak Nagiel) said hello if you go that route.

Good luck.

jhox85 · January 2002

What do you guys think about the studed snow tires? Does the Tirerack do studs?

I appreciate everybody's opinion.

hoos1 · January 2002

I totally agree that the X5 is not "practical", etc esp. here in Atl., but for some reason I do like it.

Thanks for the in-depth rec. of Athens if I get close to doing something I'll definitely give them a call. Thanks again.

compwhiz · January 2002

I did research on this recently, and found a page from one guy who has the factory phone/kit and another Timeport. Regular StarTAC/Timeport will NOT work with the BMW kit - period. I've seen a few pages with Nokia installs, and the guy claimed to get some features to work, I think. However, the StarTAC aftermaket install pages I've seen claim that none of the BMW-specific features work. I think we're out of luck on this one.

snagiel · January 2002

Agreed, the only way to get all the voice-operated and button integration working is with the Motorola CPT8000 system, which comes at the absurd price of about $1500 installed.

530bmw · January 2002

what is PS21, is it somthing that I can use to clean/wax alloy wheel? Where can I get it? Thank for your previous info on wheel cleaning.

riez · January 2002

habitat1... No inconsistency. Read the reviews of the older Maxima platform that had a fully independent suspension, including IRS, and then compare to later platform that went to a non-IRS. The automotive press that once was effusive about the Maxima were highly critical of how the later platform ACTUALLY PERFORMED vis-a-vis the earlier platform. The proof was in the pudding. The fully independent set-up outperformed the non-IRS set-up in a variety of real world and daily situations. BUT, you CANNOT say that regarding the 525i/528i/530i vs 540i steering rack issue!

And I was NEVER only talking about FWD sport sedans. I was talking about ALL serious sport sedans. Lack of IRS in current Maxima/I-35 platform is a serious and real problem vis-a-vis its competitors. That is why new Altima platform goes IRS and why next Maxima platform will as well.

530bmw · January 2002

I went to a dealership this morning and saw a new 745. At first I thought it was an Altima or something but then I realized it was the new 7 series. I seen the picture before but could not tell if it was beautiful or ugly. Personally, I think it is bulky and ugly both inside and outside compared to the old style. Has anyone seen it and what do you think of it. I hope the new 5 series will not have that bulky style. This is just my opinion and I am sure oheres may like the new design compared to the last one.

riez · January 2002

john01... Where was the information from BMW (not a poster here) or some other highly informed source indicating what you contend regarding why the 540i uses RB? All I ever see published from BMW are similar comments to what I quoted earlier. Note that BMW has been using R&P in SOME of its cars for over 20 years! But they have also chosen to use RB in some other cars during this same time period. Do you believe that since 1978, for example, BMW in all of its redesigns of 5 Series could NOT have chosen to put R&P into all of its 5 Series IF it had WANTED to? Back then the 5 Series was a 4 and 6-cylinder platform. When 5 Series had an I-4, BMW couldn't have fit R&P at same time the 4 cyl. 3 Series was using R&P??? BMW switched 5 Series from W&R to RB when it could've gone R&P, but didn't!

habitat1... So you like the "feel" better. Great. That is subjective. Like saying you like the styling better. Also great. But that is a world different than saying one is objectively and verifiably "better". I don't see any published reports indicating that is the case. Where did I mention one system being superior to another because it is "lighter"? Remember, I drive a 540i6. I love it and its steering. My wife drives a 323iA. I love it and its steering. But they are different cars. Both have great, state-of-the-driving art steering systems!!! That is all that counts. And that is what is reflected when automotive press compares 3 and 5 Series to their competitors.

Can anyone find me a review in which the reviewer says the 540i's steering is poor or not competitive AND how much BETTER it would be IF ONLY it were R&P???

john01 · January 2002

I have seen PS21 from many online or mail order firms but not too many stores. Check carcareonline.com, or griotsgarage.com, I am sure they have them. PS21 is actually a brand that makes polish, cleaner, etc. You can use their wheel cleaner to clean and prep your wheels, then use a good carnauba wax. Put a few coats on and the next time you clean it, it will be a breeze.

john01 · January 2002

I usually read BMW Car from UK or Bimmer magazine. I am sure one of the two magazines or both mentioned it at some point. I am surprised that people seem to find it as a news. I am sorry I could not point to you to a specific date and page, but even if you went to any BMW board, I am sure you can verify the story.

You mentioned, "All I ever see published from BMW are..". Do you believe that BMW will publish anything that sounds even remotely negative about their car?

I think the point of many people, including myself, who have posted on this subject was that all things being equal, people and car companies (well, at least some of them anyway) tend to prefer R&P over R&B. I don't think anyone is saying there is anything wrong with R&B.

snagiel · January 2002

Riez, you sound desparate and confused. Look at my last post: I had three separate quotations from different automotive press writers discussing the inferiority of the RB on the 540, as opposed to the rest of the 5 series. What more do you want? And if you don't believe BMW installed an RB system in the 540 and M5 because of space considerations (yeah, I'm sure they preferred the "luxury" touch for the M5), you're simply delusional. Are you so blindingly infatuated with your car that you can't conceive the possibility that some parts of it could be improved?

habitat1 · January 2002

..you really do sound desparate and are confusing your opinions with facts.

The redesigned 1995 Maxima was featured on the June 1994 cover of Car and Driver with the subtitle "Roomier, quieter, smoother, faster.". Read the full article, but here is the essence:

"The car has been completely redone, with a brand new engine, a trick rear suspension, and modernized styling. And even though the scrumptious recipe of the previous Maxima was a tough act to follow, the new car came out tastier still." Relative to the "multilink beam" suspension, there was a complete anlysis, which I won't bore the rest of the readers with. However, the bottom line:

"Verticle body motions are now truly vertical, and the system's inherent stability and consistency allows softer springs and bushings. This provides a smoother, quiter ride along with enhanced control. Driven back to back with the former SE model, the New Maxima does indeed feel smoother overall. But pick your test - emergency evasive maneuvers, fast corners or slow, smooth roads or bumpy - and there is no discernible penalty for this greater compliance. In fact, the new car stays better planted, especially at the rear, and there is noticably less flailing about through fast right-left-right transitions."

Funny, that doesn't sound like a "highly critical" automotive press review to me. The others I read in 1994/1995 came to similar conclusions. It's only been recently that the Maxima's non-IRS has been used by other car owners and sales people as a slap against Nissan.

Now, back to the topic of this forum, I am certain that I also read that the recirculating ball steering was required for the 540i due to space constraints, as was mentioned by others. I'll also grant you that my preference for the 530i sport steering is indeed subjective, but shared by many who have driven both back to back. You're welcome to disagree, and assuming you've actually driven a 530i sport, I'd like to know what you like better about the 540i's steering. But would you please just stop confusing YOUR own opinions for the facts, especially when, as facts, they are WRONG?

milner1 · January 2002

I have a 2000 528 w/ sports pkg. I have read all these posts about the summer sports tires. I have the Dunlop 2000's - don't care a lot about the summer thing (i'mn in Memphis) and we get all kinds of weather here, so excuse me if I am asking a dumb question because I am a girl and don't know a ton about cars, but is there an all-season low profile tire out there? Also, has anyone noticed a mechanical sound like a whirring motor sound under the dash or around the steering wheel that goes on and off for about 1-2 seconds, particularly when the car is stopped- I don't think it's the aforementioned cooling fan thing- any ideas?

riez · January 2002

So let's see how consistent you lovers of technology are: How many of you berate and bemoan your beloved but primitive front suspensions??? Oh, the pain, it uses... gasp... MacPherson struts!!! And we all KNOW how INFERIOR this el cheapo set-up is, right??? It can't matter what the reviews or objective performance data shows, our front suspensions are inherently inferior and unworthy of our otherwise great cars!

Drat, you've all convinced me my 540i6 is a primitive piece of crud, not far removed from a Trabant! I'm selling mine and buying a more sophisticated Kia Rio tomorrow!

riez · January 2002

AutoWeek's 1996 Buying Guide has a nice discussion about Maxima's then revised rear suspension. Some excerpts:

"In place of a fully independent multi-link setup, the '95 Maxima uses a torsion beam ... the rear suspension isn't totally independent. The movement of one wheel creates reaction on the other ... It is less expensive to build. It weighs less, requires less space and transmits less noise to the cabin. The company says that the new Maxima 'handles' better than the old ... On the road, the drawbacks of the beam axle present themselves. Near the limits of grip, the rear end bounces more over potholes or other changes in road surface ... going hard, it's bothered a little more by bumps. The car doesn't hold its line quite as well as the old one did on unever surfaces. It's easy to manage, but a bit less composed than the old car under duress."

cb44 · January 2002

Yes, there are all-season tires which fit the set-up on 5 series sports equipped cars. I counted at least three brands at tirerack, including the Yokohama AVS dB's which seemed to get good reviews.

Go to tirerack.com and enter you car details and select the type of tire and it will give you some suggestions. Good luck.

riez · January 2002

Think the 1997 AAA Autograph car review book sums it up best: "The [Maxima] suspension absorbs MOST surface imperfections ... Overall, the car rides comfortably and handles NEARLY as well as a sports sedan.... the Maxima is just another nice car." (emphasis added) The word "most" might be "all" and the word "nearly" might have been dropped if the rear suspension was IRS!

The laws of physics dictate that an IRS is inherently superior while driving in many significant situations and over many different road surfaces. Thankfully, BMWs have had IRS going back what, 4 decades? Back when Detroit didn't hardly know that IRS could stand for more than Internal Revenue Service.

(Might also be interesting to compare the number of times the Maxima was a C&D 10 Best Winner when the Maxima was IRS before and then non-IRS afterward. The Toyota Camry V-6 was on the 1996 10 Best List! When was the last time the Maxima made the 10 Best List? Or compare Automobile All Star's lists. Was the then new '95 Maxima MT's ICOTY?)

milner1 · January 2002

thx for the info ck44 or whatevr your name is- I ccant find your orig.msg but would love anyy comments n the whirring that lasts 2 ssecs - sounds ike a little motor

john01 · January 2002

I think the sound may be the ABS motor turning. I have heard of other people talking about similar noise and finding out that it was the ABS motor. My Acura does that quite a bit, but apparently it is normal for this model. Not sure if it is the case with the 5 series.

530bmw · January 2002

Thanks again for your info on PS21.

john01 · January 2002

Anytime.

pen101 · January 2002

This question may have been answered before, but I could not find it....

I now have almost 1,200 miles on my new MY2002 530i, 5-speed, PP, SP, Xenons. Driving it puts a guaranteed smile on my face. I love the car. And now that the break-in period is almost complete, it is time to push the car a little bit more...

Question: No where in the owners' manual does it suggest optimal shift points for regular driving (to get best economy) or for aggressive driving (to get best acceleration performance). Does anyone know at what speed or rpm one should shift each gear to achieve the maximum for each?

Thanks.

snagiel · January 2002

Fuel economy: Perhaps they don't discuss it because extracting maximum fuel economy isn't only about engine speeds. For example, say you're going a steady 65 and the engine is revving at 2800 rpm. If you let up off the gas suddenly, the fuel economy will shoot up to extremely high levels (even though the RPM's decline very slowly), since the engine computer will sense no throttle input and inject the minimum required (very little) fuel into each cylinder to keep it running and detonating smoothly. Now, if you floor it (still in 5th), the RPM's will very slowly increase, but the fuel economy will tank, since the engine is sucking as much gas as possible at every turn to increase power.
Therefore, to increase your fuel economy you should shift at moderate engine speeds (2500-3000 rpm), and avoid giving full throttle regardless of engine speed. Of course, this will be painful and antithetical to everything that is BMW, but it will reduce the frequency of your visits to the gas station.

As for performance, BMW's engines (especially the six-inlines) are very linear and achieve maximum power near redline, so to maximize performance you should shift close to that. (And don't worry, the ECU will protect the engine and prevent you from racing past the redline).

Have fun...I'm 200 miles away myself from the magic 1200 mark (although, more than once--including the day I picked it up--I've butchered the 4500 rpm restraining order).

riez · January 2002

snagiel...

1. At your post 1981 you chided the 540i's steering for being "antiquated" and at post 1988 for being a "compromise". Noticed you haven't said anything about the MacPherson strut front suspensions. If the 540i's steering rack is antiquated and a compromise, then isn't the entire 5 Series' front suspension? McP struts have been around for nearly half a century. So does that mean in your opinion that BOTH the steering and front suspension of all 540i's are antiquated compromises?

2. I also re-read your post 1994. If those quotes are the best there is about the antiquated and compromised RB steering rack, then it is neither. One merely says "TINY SUBJECTIVE edge" and the other says "less tactile". And that proves what? That the Internet Auto Guide writer might just barely believe in their own entirely personal and subjective opinon s/he feels something different? Wonder if that writer might not concede that since the I-6 and V-8 cars use different tires, weigh different amounts, have different centers of gravity, etc. it wouldn't be surprising that there just might be a TINY SUBJECTIVE difference? And that if you blindfolded and sound-deprived him or her, s/he might not be able to tell the difference?

Be willing to bet you 50 euros or 30 English pounds this writer would say s/he thought there were TINY SUBJECTIVE differences in steering between various European 5 Series: 520i, 525i, and 530i, as well as the exact same model between different model years (e.g., 2000 vs 2001 vs 2002). 'cause you can feel TINY SUBJECTIVE differences in anything and everything, at any time or all the time.

That is why the objective data is so important. By that measure, and in comparison to all of its great competitors, the 540i's steering rack is world-class!!!

riez · January 2002

habitat1... I've already quoted the AAA reviews of the non-IRS Maxima. Pulled out the 1991 and 1992 issues of AAA Auto Test. (I also have the 1994 issue but they didn't test the Maxima that year.) Here's some excerpts about the suspension. Compare to what they say about the next generation's non-IRS suspension:

1992: "feels like a sports car on twisting 2-lane back roads. It corners with minimal body lean and impressive grip. The suspension is firm but doesn't make the ride stiff ... The bottom line ... sporty handling."

1991: "Ride quality isn't sacrificed to handling ability in the SE. The suspension is firm but supple and comfortable. The bottom line ... Competition that can't match Maxima's performance."

Nissan threw it all away with the redesigned non-IRS. That is

snagiel · January 2002

1. You're equivocating terms here. Just because something's been around a while doesn't necessarily mean it's antiquated. The steering wheel, for example. MacPherson struts are still used in the majority of cars today, and BMW has (as they have with most components) refined them extremely well. I will grant it's not the newest technology, but I wouldn't call them antiquated the same way I would RB steering, which exists today in the majority not of cars but of trucks and SUV's (and Mercedes, for reasons that escape me but nevertheless make Benzes a step behind BMW's in terms of handling). But before you try to split hairs any further with these terms, understand that I wasn't criticizing the 540/M5's steering BECAUSE they were antiquated, but just adding that adjective to describe the technology.

2. Look, a lot about driving is subjective. We're talking about steering FEEL, which is nearly impossible to translate objectively. Even the sum of all the measurable parts--the force required to turn the wheel, the vibrations that constitute the feedback, etc.--fail to capture what a steering system "feels" like. If you want to argue you prefer the 540's and M5's RB, you're more than welcome to, and I won't try to change your mind. I'm suggesting, however, that most people who HAVE driven both systems notice an overall better feel with R&P. Of course that difference is small--we're talking about shades of the best sports sedan in the world. But that difference exists.

Overall, I have no idea what your point is. If you personally prefer the RB system, that's fine. If you haven't test driven a 530 sport for comparison, I'd say you're lacking credibility and are childishly clinging to your obtuse argument with the fear of discovering your 540 isn't "perfect." (By the way, no car is, so it's OK to come to that conclusion.)

riez · January 2002

Thought you might like to read what Richard Busenkill wrote in his 1981 book, "BMW Since 1945":

"The bright new hope was the 1500, a prototype of which debuted at the Frankfurt Show in September 1961 and which entered volume production in August 1962. It and its derivatives are referred to by BMW as the 'new range' or 'new series' emphasizing the complete break with previous design. The 1500 was indeed new from bumper-to-bumper... (p. 45) The independent rear suspension of the 1500 also established a long-lived precedent at BMW. The semi-trailing arms and the nose of the differential were supported by a crossmember subframe isolated from the unibody structure by special mounts." [Shows a detailed cut-away drawing of the IRS.] (p. 46) The 1500 looks like a simpler, more utilitarian 2002.

Busenkell notes that the preceeding 700 Series, a very small economy car with motorcycle engine in rear, introduced by BMW in 1959, also used trailing arm independent rear suspension.

IRS always has made a critical difference in suspension capability. That is why BMW has used them for so very, very long, even when Detroit wasn't using them thru much of the 1960s and 1970s, as well as into the 1980s and today (e.g., Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis/Lincoln Town Car). In the 1950s, the wonderful BMW 501-507 Series as well as the 2600-3200s Series all used a rigid axle with torsion bar.

riez · January 2002

snagiel... Can't we just discuss the issue and bring forth information? Seems a bit harsh to call me childish, obtuse, and lacking in credibility. And all in just post 2029. I'm bringing forth information, not relying on my personal subjective opinions. I certainly would never rely on one writer's discussion about "TINY SUBJECTIVE" perceptions to drive my reasoning.

I own a '98 540i 6-speed and a '00 323iA. The former has RB, the latter R&P. I love them both. They are equally good, steering-wise! Do you own and drive both? Just want to see if your credibility factor is high enough!

And it does seem eminently fair and reasonable to say that pretty much all of your points about the antiquated, comprimised, and tiny subjectively inferior feel (remember: your words or those of others you advanced)of the 540i's RB steering rack would be applicable to the 5 Series' front MacPherson suspension. The reason a majority of cars use it, is nearly all ECONOMY cars use it. Cars like Geo Metro, Kia Rio, Hyundai Accent, etc. But I don't think a majority of cars that retail for $30,000 or more use it!!! But that, just like with RB, doesn't make it inferior, compromised, or antiquated.

pat · January 2002

Let's just take a deep breath, folks, and relax a bit. Sometimes it becomes clear that some folks are never going to see eye to eye on a subject, and that's always a good time to just let the subject drop and move on.

To me, it seems time for that right about now.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

cmr530i · January 2002

Thanks for your input on the shift points. I too have been wondering how hard to push my 530. Can you please tell me what the ECU is? (I have not learned all the technical terminology yet and would appreciate you sharing what you know.)

john01 · January 2002

I think ECU stands for "Electronic Control Unit", but that is a guess, I have never verified as far as I can remember. but basically it is the "computer" that monitors and controls various functions on your car. One of those is to TRY and make sure that the engine does not rev beyond the redline and result in an expensive repair. If you down shift at RPM that is too high for the lower gear, you will blow the engine up, but if you are accelerating and accidentally push beyond the redline, the ECU will shut off the fuel for a moment to get you back where it is safe. This is how manufacturers are "electronically limiting" the top speed.

sanand5 · January 2002

I recently saw the availability of this software. It is supposed to decrease the time required to shift in the 530i. I do notice that my '01 530i shifts slower than my old '98 328i did. I thought this was more due to the fact that it is Steptronic. Has anyone tried the Dinan software? Are there any risks to using it?

mcq7159 · January 2002

I have a Saab 9-5 coming off lease at the end of June and have started the "shopping around" process. Thanks to all of you here for your enthusiastic and enlightening remarks about the 5 series. After test drives in Audi, Volvo, Lexus and Nissan, I'm leaning VERY seriously in the direction of a BMW 530.

After a test drive yesterday, the sales consultant "worked up some numbers" for a 530 manual, premium package, cold weather package and xenon lights. His number: $43,150 before taxes and registration.

Since I'm at least a month away from a decision, and since my closest dealers are 45 minutes away (two of them) or an hour away (three of them), I didn't try to start negotiating. I thanked him and walked away.

Okay all you experts: how far away is this number from a target price that allows the dealer some profit and allows me to sleep soundly? If it matters, I'm in northwestern Connecticut. Thanks in advance for your advice.

cmr530i · January 2002

Thank you for your explanation of ECU.

bobsky · January 2002

Although I agree that the five series is a wonderful driver's car, I would strongly caution anyone who lives 45 minutes away from the closest dealer to reconsider. My five has been plagued with electrical problems, requiring me to visit the dealer at least eight times within the first 11 months of ownership. Many of my friends have also had similar problems, as I have discovered. Unfortunately, BMW has not addressed my problems, nor their's (three of which promptly replaced their fives with Lexus or Mercedes), despite letters to BMW NA. Fortunately, California has a powerful lemon law which affords consumers leverage. You may not be as lucky.

I have had eight modern BMWs (not including my 2002s), so I consider myself a loyalist. After this experience, I'm a Mercedes E55 customer.

If you're confident that your selected dealer will take care of you if you get a problem car, then the five is worth it. Otherwise, plan on an enormous time drain. Good luck.

mcq7159 · January 2002

Thanks for your candid advice ... if I buy, I'll make sure pick ups and loaners are part of the deal ... unfortunately, EVERY car dealer is at least 30 minutes away, except domestic brands (not interested).

I'll keep my eyes [and ears] open. Thanks again.

vanalder · January 2002

You might want to check out Steve Diamond's website at

http://www.eurobuyers.com

He shows updated 2002 5-series Invoice prices - both for U.S. and European

Dellivery.

Based on my experience last year - and reading various boards - I'd say

you could think of settling for a TOTAL (excluding tax, title, and registration)

of around $ 1500 over invoice (car + options).

Have fun (and luck) in your decision process.

Daan

mcq7159 · January 2002

Thanks for helping this rookie out -- I'm following your eurobuyers link now!

snagiel · January 2002

Thanks, Pat, for cooling this off. I was trying to keep the criticisms more to the argument, so if it got personal, riez you have my apologies. Honestly, it's a little silly, since as I said we're talking about shades of the best sports sedan out there, which in and of itself is a relatively trivial topic in the grand scheme of things. But we're car nuts and tend to get worked up sometimes. Anyway, sorry again.

riez · January 2002

Yes, the 5 Series is a truly magnificent car, in all of its variations, from 525iA up to 540iM. And, yes, we both are car enthusiasts. Does tend to get the pulse poundin' and heart racin'! (FYI. Busenkell's 1981 book, BMW Since 1945, makes prominent mention that the first BMW with MacPherson struts was the 1500 in 1962. All BMWs up to 1981, except one, used McP struts. The M1 super-car, in 1979, used SLA. Even the Z8 uses McP struts.)

nkalaria · January 2002

I am interested in leasing a 530 automatic with premium package. The best number I have gotten is 569/month 0 down for 36 months (plus tax); what would be the best deal I could hope to get (in the NYC area). Thanks.

indylowflyer · January 2002

Like I've posted before, it doesn't matter if it is a 528, 530, or 540, they are awesome cars.

jvalny · January 2002

I own a 2001, 530 sport package. I had the fan replaced twice and still get an intermittant high pitched noise. I will be going in for service very soon and maybe the service dept. will provide a fix. ----- Very frustrating---

habitat1 · January 2002

..just kidding!

P.S. Bobsky - "Buyer Beware": I am very surprised to hear the number of electrical problems you had with your 5-series. I have several friends who have E's, C's and S's who have had quite a few quirks of their own. I have a standing bet with a friend with an E430 as to whether all of his headlights and foglights will come on on any given try. So far, I'm ahead. Nothing serious, but very annoying to him. I was also briefly considering a C32 and the Edmunds C class forum was full of complaints about the new keys not working, cars not starting, etc. I thought the current 5-series was rated higher than Mercedes on the electrical front (at least consumer reports says so). Apparantly not?

riez · January 2002

habitat1... How sad but true. Just like in a new little basic economy car costing $10,000! Should we start a campaign to update BMW's steering and suspension technology? Don't they know this is the 21st century? Maybe they are working on secret cold fusion/perpetual motion/zero emission/flying-hover cars???

habitat1 · January 2002

..working on a hydrogen powered car several years ago. Saw it on Discovery/TLC/CNN or one of those non-network channels. Showed a guy pumping some liquid hydrogen into the back of a 7-series. NASA provided the moonsuits and gloves.

Haven't heard anything since, but hope they didn't consult Ford on the placement of the fuel tank.

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