Synthetic motor oil

armtdm · December 2001

I have been using a 0W30 in one car for a year now, just changed it out at 8,100 miles as it has been a year(filter changed at 6 months) but have not received back the oil analysis results as yet. Manual calls for a 5W30 but wanted quicker lube to the top and it is a slightly colder climate at daughter's college. I will post analysis results when they arrive. This was Amsoil 0W30.

scirocco22 · December 2001

Tom-- Yes, I'd really be interested in the results of your analysis. My manual actually calls for 0W-30 but says if that's not available then 5W-30 can be used. I really was impressed with what the Mobil 1 web site said about 0W-40 ( http://www.mobil1.com/products/trisynth/oil_0w40.jsp ) but Bror Jace's comments explained why they are saying that and why I should question what they are saying.

Thanx for your response, Tom.

--'rocco

brorjace · December 2001

'Rocco and others,
While I will concede that newer oil additives that the formulators/refineries incorporate into their formulas are probably much better than the first ones when multi-vis oils were first introduced, that's not really saying much.

I remember the horror stories from the late 70s and early 80s that showed what a mess 10W40 oil could make in a car even after a few thousand miles.

I'm sure today's polymer goo viscosity improver is better than the stuff 20 years ago ... but I still don't want to rely on it to any great degree ... especially with an expensive, high-RPM specialty car.

By using a higher base number, you're only giving up a few horsepower and maybe 1-3% in fuel economy. But your engine is much safer.

--- Bror Jace

gsleve · December 2001

I've spoken as of late with a couple of techs in particular Amsoil's and questioned them on the vi spread of their 10w-40, and 0w-30 and they brought out that, when dealing with a synthetic the amount of VI improver used is very little in order to construct that oil to meet those designations, addditionally a synthetic base oil is far far more stable than the petro they used years ago, to achieve the same results therefore synthetics are not as prone to having the VI improver deteriorate and cause the deleterious affects you've mentioned earlier moreover the amount used is significantly less than years ago, it seems that through the years the technology and formulations have improved considerably

scirocco22 · December 2001

gary-- hmmmm, yeah, that's essentially what the Mobil 1 people implied when I called them to inquire about the viscosity enhancers (and their application to wide spread multi-vis applications) issue a few months ago. I was specifically concerned about 0W-30 but would more so apply to 0W-40. In a nutshell, they told me not to worry about it.

What Bror Jace says makes a lot of sense to me and still causes me to be a bit skeptical until further studies can be done to show just how much these enhancers break the oil down over time and to what degree they make the lubrication properties to become instable.

Thanx for your comments, gary.

Has anybody else who has used 0W-30 had an analysis done lately?

--'rocco

brorjace · December 2001

I think armtdm has a car running on Amsoil 0W30. Don't know if he's had it analyzed yet or not.

Yes, I knew that synthetics have many more natural multi-viscosity properties. Of course this is an oxymoron ... synthetic being more 'natural' >;^)

Mobil 1 0W30 may not be 'bad' but if you look at the pour ratings, it is only a handful of degrees (5?) better than Mobil 1 5W30 ... which pours at
-55F or so. Personally, I'd only use the ultra thin stuff if I lived within spitting distance of the arctic circle.

The REAL sinner in this whole mess is something like 5W50. Redline shows (on their site) how that stuff breaks down considerably after only a few thousand miles. It's THOSE broken down compounds that I wouldn't want in my motor.

The word on the street was that Castrol thought they could get all the auto mfrs to start recommending additive-heavy 5W50 as the recommended oil. Can you think of a reason they wouldn't adopt it?

I know I can. >;^)

--- Bror Jace

armtdm · December 2001

Yes, I sent a sample in about 5 days ago (Amsoil 0W30), the oil had 8,158 miles on it with the filter changed at 6 months and topped off with about 20 ounces of oil at the time of the filter. The oil was in the crankcase a year. With the holidays who knows when the results will be back. This will be the sixth sample on this engine and the last two were a 10W30 that were in there for a year as well so should be a good comparison , first one at 10,154 miles and second at 7,591.

mrdetailer · December 2001

Pure Syn (Quaker State) ran great in my engine for a year. I now have a drip about the size of a silver dollar wherever it's parked.

So, in spite of Mobil1's disinterested (LOL) statement, I am inclined now to believe that there is an issue at least with higher mileage cars.

I'm trying Maxlife on the next change to see what happens.

bunky150 · December 2001

I have a lifter noise (I presume) in the front of my engine 451 Windsor 34,000 miles. the ford dealer said many of these engines have this sound and said the oil is not fully getting up to the top of the engine. They recommended my using synthetic oil. mobile 1 was the tech's suggestion.
He said 5-20W but can't find it so I got 5-30W. I have been using castrol GTX 5-30W petrol oil and have changed it faithfully every 3,500 miles. Any comments? Will the seals be OK? Switching now is OK? I was told I can't switch back though. ???

mrdetailer · December 2001

Well if you can't switch back, why does every oil manufacturer sell a synthetic blend? Naaah. Once the oil is drained out other types and brands can be put in.

If you are really worried about seals, especially since you change your oil every 3-4K miles, you might want to consider Valvoline MaxLife. The test data they sent to me showed a reduction in pre-hardened seals. It should work much better on seals that are still in good shape like yours should be. Maxlife is impressive in the "oil thickening" (sludge) test compared to Conventional, but not quite as good as synthetic.

You might want to create your own blend of 50% Maxlife, and 50% Synpower. Get the best of both worlds. And it would considerably improve the cold start up.

My Car with 120,000 miles has shown some leaks after a year of use with straight synthetics. So I'm considering the same thing myself.

armtdm · December 2001

What you heard is not sustantiated in real life. You can alwasy go back, 34,000 is not even closed to considering not switching, maybe 100,000.
Seepages well, some do some don't just like those that use dino.
If you live in a cold climate try a synthetic 0W30 and that should help

ywilson · December 2001

I have been looking into it and tried it awhile ago at my last oil change. It seems to really clean the engine deposits and my oil was still clean enough to see the readings on the dipstick. I just would like someones opinion on this that is familiar with the product.

brorjace · December 2001

ywilson,
I'm not familiar with that stuff. Can you post a link to some info?

--- Bror Jace

div2 · December 2001

Well, I know the BG fuel and ATF additives work. No experience with their other products, though...

8u6hfd · December 2001

Honda puts special stuff in the factory oil to ensure proper break-in. I'm normally a 3,000 mile oil changer, but in this case, leave the oil in there for the full 7500 miles. If you change it early, the engine may not break-in properly, it's been known at Honda, you're going to have engine troubles if you change the oil out early.

BG 44K fuel system treatment is a god-sent!!!

ywilson · December 2001

www.ec-securehost.com/RynoPerformanceProducts/Featured_Products.html.

This is what I found with the search. Hope it helps.

dgsg · December 2001

I changed the Factory oil in my 2001 Acura (Honda) CL Type "S" at 500 miles to Mobil 1. It now has 28,000 miles on it. The last oil change was 22,500 miles and it has not burned a drop. Special "Factory oils's" are the stuff of legend. I say get the dino out ASAP.

mbbenz · December 2001

"Honda puts special stuff in the factory oil to ensure proper break-in. I'm normally a 3,000 mile oil changer, but in this case, leave the oil in there for the full 7500 miles. If you change it early, the engine may not break-in properly, it's been known at Honda, you're going to have engine troubles if you change the oil out early"

Where did you get this info, out of a Honda's owner's manual?????

My Mercedes comes factory filled with Mobil 1 Synthetic. Last time I checked Mercedes didn't add anything special to this Mobil 1.

adc100 · December 2001

brorjace · December 2001

Mr. Detailer, That sounds like an interesting, effective mix ... especially if you're worried about leaks. I can't recommend it, though, because of the chance, however slight, that one additive in one of the oils won't 'play nice' with another. However, since both of these are Ashland formaultaions, this is even more remote than usual. Will you run this stuff for 5,000 miles and then get a sample tested?

I looked at that site for the BG additives ... and I can't say much. There's not enough info to make me decide one way or another. I've never heard of them before.

I think the reports of Hondas and some other cars using a break-in oil ... but with proper care, you can still get a tight, good running engine even if you change it out early. Others in this forum are proof of that. I'd probably split the difference and merely leave it in for about 2,500-4,000 miles before swapping it out.

--- Bror Jace

mrdetailer · December 2001

A few days ago I mailed Valvoline with an inquiry about mixing Maxlife with Synpower. I personally think that it would be a better mixture than the current mix of conventional oil with Synthetic.

Looks like it's OK BroJace. Here is what they said.

Yes, you can mix the two oils. We don't recommend mixing two different brands of oils or two different oil viscosities. For more information, please call our technical hotline at 1-800-254-8957.

mrdetailer · January 2002

I contacted the technical support for Valvoline and they indicated that Mixing Viscosities will not produce the exact result that you may anticipate. Like if you mix a 5W-30 with 10W-40 you don't get a 7.5W-35. It will be something different. Other than that they couldn't give a major reason why you couldn't mix.

PS Maxlife has 15% synthetic according to their tech support. Further proof that these newer grades are using synthetics to improve oil quality.

mulfomi · January 2002

I just bought my first case (6 qrts) of Mobil 1 and a Mobil 1 oil filter. I have a VW Passat with the 1.8 Turbo engine and wanted the protection especially with the Turbo. However, since my car gets free maintance until 24M miles, putting Mobil 1 in now will cost me the price of the oil/filter as opposed to waiting until the 20M mile oil change and switching then. I have scheduled my next oil change for next week and the car will have 10M miles on it. VW's change interval is 5M miles. VW service says they put in Castrol Syntech currently. My question is, how much benefit will it make to convert now at 10M miles, vs. waiting till 20M and then converting to Mobil 1. I do live in a cold climate (Ohio, on Michigan border). If I change now as well, I will continue at the 5M mile interval before increasing to 7.5M-10M afterwards.

Thanks for any input.

adc100 · January 2002

and despise Syntec because it is not really a "true" Synthetic except in a court of law (in my opinion)- I would probably let VW continue to give you the free oil change. Syntec is better than any conventional oil going and would give the same level of protection.

armtdm · January 2002

Stay with the freebie!

tboner1965 · January 2002

What oils go 5M, 10M, etc? (Ok, I'm a smart @**)

You really meant "K" right?

Otherwise, I've gotta get some of that stuff 8^)

Just checking if anyone is paying attention.

TB

mulfomi · January 2002

Well, I am a banker and in banking M is used to represent 000, not K. Not sure who else uses M vs K but it is habit for me.

Thanks for the input and I think I will stick with the free oil changes for the 10M(K) and 15M(K) oil changes before switching at 20M(K).

Enjoy everyones comments and input on this and the other Edmunds boards. Helped me when I was looking and with pricing issues.

adc100 · January 2002

M is K

tboner1965 · January 2002

I'm a computer guy so K = 1024 and M = 1048576

I believe most follow similar convention.

Physics as well as Electronic are done in a similar fashion. Electricity is measured in kilowatts and megawatts, resistors in a simliar fashion (substitute ohms for watts in previous examples.

Then of course, the metric system.

On the other hand, I believe M = 1000 in roman numerals, hence the M&M's ad campaign at the turn of the century about 2000 being the year of the M&M.

FWIW,

TB

8u6hfd · January 2002

Is synthetic, well hydromerized dino juice....(see article Csaba Csere wrote a while back in Car & Driver).

There is a TSB on oil leaks in the VW database, that is really a monitoring bulletin to prove that the engine is leaking or burning oil.

mrdetailer · January 2002

I understand that turbos are murder on oil, but don't have any experience. I have heard from one person that they change the oil in their turbo every 3,000 miles. Any opinions on this issue?

armtdm · January 2002

I have a twin turbo and change the oil every 5000 with synthetic. However, owner's manual says 5000 regardless of oil used. Main issue is coking of the turbos so if you let it idle for a minute or so after hard use you should be okay.

shipo · January 2002

Back in the 1980's I had two different Chrysler products that had the (then) ubiquitous 2.2 liter blown four banger (one was a 150hp unit, the other was an inter-cooled ~175hp unit). I ran both engines on Mobil 1, drove each cars over 100,000 miles (being none too diligent about allowing the turbine to spin down prior to shutting off the engine), used 7500 mile oil changes while the cars were under warranty and 10,000 mile oil changes after the warranties expired. When I sold both cars the engines were running as strong (if not stronger) as when new and neither used more than a few ounces of oil per 10,000 miles driven.

Compare that to three friends who had cars with the same engine, used dino-juice, and changed their oil anywhere from 3,000 miles to 7,500 miles. All three of those cars needed a turbo replacement within the warranty period, one of them (my business partners wife) had two turbo replacements and was smoking badly (probably the turbo bearings/seals) when traded in with 93,000 miles on the clock.

This is admittedly anecdotal evidence, however, it is my belief that the Mobil 1 is the reason that my engines were in such good shape after >100,000 miles of hard driving.

Best Regards,
Shipo

spokane · January 2002

I agree that the Chrysler Turbo comparisons provide anecdotal evidence - but I expect it is valid. The synthetic oil's resistance to coking in the very hot high-speed Turbo bearings is one this lubricant's most significant characteristics. I would expect to find Turbo longevity results to be just as you described.

mrdetailer · January 2002

I asked Castrol about why their Syntech was like a PAO. Here is the response I got.

Thank you for contacting Castrol regarding Syntec 5W-30 Full Synthetic Motor
Oil. We
appreciate your interest in our products.

While it is not Castrol's policy to comment on our competitive brands of
oil, we can elaborate on
the benefits of our brand. Castrol Syntec Full Synthetic Motor Oil features
unique molecular
components containing exclusive chemical esters, which bond to engine parts
providing a unique
layer of protection.

Castrol Syntec has an excellent detergent dispersant system, which provides
superior
performance in maintaining engine cleanliness and helping to prevent
build-up of deposits within
the engine. Syntec contains patented stabilizers that interact with harmful
pollutants more
effectively than conventional oils. In doing so, they seek out combustion
by-products and other
corrosive particles and hold them in suspension while maintaining engine
cleanliness. Syntec
neutralizes or stabilizes corrosive effects and provides deposit formation
protection, resulting in a
cleaner running engine, thus reducing wear and helping extend engine life.

Syntec Full Synthetic SAE 5W-50 provides the widest range of protection
available. The 5W
provides rapid oil circulation at start-up and the 50 delivers a thicker
high temperature oil film
for ultimate wear protection.

Castrol Syntec Full Synthetic Motor Oil, with its exclusive chemical esters,
is also available in
SAE 5W-30, l0W-30 and 0W-30.

Unfortunately, this tells me very little.

ruking1 · January 2002

#2486

I know what that tells me... Get Mobil ONE !

(or if you really like high end smaller batch vendors, Amsoil or Redline)

mrdetailer · January 2002

On paper, after examining a number of oil spec sheets I am amazed at their uniform performance under tests.

For a 5W-30 the average cold temperature pour point in centegrade is as follows:

Conventional Oil. -34 degrees

Blended and High
Mileage Oils -37

Synthetic Oils -42

Given the advertizing I am surprized. It's only 8 degrees difference between Synthetic and Conventional.

Has anyone had experiences at higher temperatures.

mbbenz · January 2002

Especially most places have Mobil 1 cheaper than Syntec...its a no brainer I guess.

adc100 · January 2002

Pour point of Mobil 1 5W-30 is -54 C.

ruking1- I agree

mrdetailer · January 2002

But I wondered how different things are at normal cold temperatures. We rarely go below 0 farenheit, but it can stay in the 20s for 2-2.5 months at a time. What is the difference in those real ranges.

8u6hfd · January 2002

Two words: Cost Reduction

From what I've been told by a Suzuki Hayabusa owner, even he normally uses Mobil 1 in his cars, he uses Castrol Syntec in the Hayabusa because it has higher shear strength than Mobil 1.

brorjace · January 2002

Mr. Detailer, Castrol doesn't say anything new or noteworthy in that piece of corporate BS fluff they sent you ... but I did have to laugh when they stressed the detergency of their oils. If the oil truly held contaminents in suspension, the oil would turn darker, sooner.

As for the pour point, I bet those numbers would look better if you took Redline out of the mix. This stuff is noticeably thicker than the same weight of a PAO synthetic oil. Still, their 5W30 is fine for nearly every location in North America.

Yes, turbos with their high heat and high bearing RPMs are an ideal environment for showing the differenc between a conventional oil and a synthetic.

8u6hfd, Castrol has a higher sheer strength? Can you be more specific and/or cite a technical source for this info?

--- Bror Jace

brorjace · January 2002

I just got some information that Valvoline is switching their synthetic Synpower formula from 100% PAO to a 60% hydrocracked crude oil.

Also, Mobil has pulled some of the detail from their Mobil 1 MSDS sheets so if they similarly switch, we won't necessarily know.

<:^(

--- <b>Bror Jace

longo32 · January 2002

In my last post "Amsoil ..Waranty..?" I mentioned 'Lubegard', what I ment to say was "Motrlube"
A Canadian Synthetic that I am usings, also advertised as a long life engine lubricant with a symilar "warranty" as the other premium synthetics. . My 'Lubegard' is in the A/T and Power steering system.

armtdm · January 2002

Valvoline going the route of Castrol and will be misleading the public as well that they are a full synthetic! Bet the price stays the same as well.

mrdetailer · January 2002

Pour point for Mobil 1 (in centegrade)5W-30 -58 degrees

Valvoline Syntech 5W-30 -43 degrees.

adc100 · January 2002

- 58 F, -50 C.

armtdm · January 2002

Received back analysis on my 0W30 oil. This history is on a 96 Mercury Mystique 4 cylinder with current mileage of 65,700 miles. Car is driven by daughter either to work during summer or at college last two years. (Guess short trips to Wal-Mart except when coming home, sort of verified by the 1.5 % of vol. for fuel although not too bad ) Manual actually calls for a 5W30 weight but I used 10W until last year. Last four years of oil changes have been once per year with a filter at 6 months. Previous three years were using Amsoil 10W30 (not the XL 7,500 series but normal synthetic) and the most recent year was Amsoil 0W30. The first year December 98 was the first year full year of ownership. (30,768 miles when purchased) and immediately switched to Synthetic Dec 97). I will post results for four straight years beginning in December 98 through December 2001. Mileage on oil at time of each change was, starting in (98) 8,483 (99) 10,154, (00) 7,591 and (01) 8,158. All data starts with 98 first and is listed as parts per million, (ppm).

Iron 51, 25, 17, 14; chromium <1 all 4 years; nickel <1 all 4 years; aluminum 10, 7, 6, 5; lead 10, 5, 3, 2; copper 29, 25, 20, 16; tin <1 all 4 years; silver <1 all 4 years; titanium <1 all 4 years; silicon 27, 31, 19, 23; boron 31, 13, 14, 10; potassium <10 all 4 years; molybdenum <5 all 4 years; phosphorus 949, 1126, 1712, 1336; zinc 1253, 1396, 1911, 1596; calcium 2834, 2475, 3658, 2611; barium < 10 all 4 years; magnesium 373, 330, 446, 343; antimony <30 all 4 years and vanadium <1 all 4 years. Fuel as a % of volume was 1.0, 1.7, 1.1, 1.5; total solids as a % of volume .3, .3, .2, .2, water as a % of volume < .10 all 4 years. I did not have other tests performed such as TBN, nitration, oxidation etc.

My interpretation is that the wear metals have decreased over the past four years, first year of synthetic was the highest. The last year using the 0W30 oil saw no degradation of protection, it appears to have protected as well as the 10W30 weight. Looks like a slight difference in the additive package between the 10W and 0W but I am not knowledgeable enough to really interpret this. My main concern has been the wear metals. The filters used were all Pure One except for a K&N back in 99. My conclusion is that the 0W30 appears to protect as well as the 10W30. Lab conclusion was "Values are acceptable for the tests performed, resample at the next scheduled interval" As it was a year the oil and filter were changed when the sample was drawn.

Not sure if this dispels any theories that a 0W cannot protect as well as a 5W or 10W but these are my results.

adc100 · January 2002

We need more of this information on this board. Opinions are great and also important, but unbiased facts allow more educated discussion. I think you are exactly correct in your conclusion considering the iron, copper, and lead. It also gives confidence to the analysis done.

The only other conclusion you could draw is that there is no more bearing metal left- but then the iron would go up. Just kidding.

Also is interesting to note the low wear on the 0W oil. Do you have that in now? Another year of low wear on the 0W would add to confirm your hypothesis.

Later
Al

armtdm · January 2002

Change this past Dec was also the 0W30.

Synthetic motor oil

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