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In the B-52, F4-E, C-130? Is that what you're saying?
Oh, hell no!! Much too expensive!!!! (LOL) The lowest bidder always wins!!
However, I do use it in TLC's and Corvette Z06.
helicopter, Mil-PRF-23699Std. Remember that one?
During breaks from drinking in the O Club at Ton Son Nhut, I vaguely recall flying a couple of SARs
for Thud pilots. But, I'm probably exaggerating,
being a "tough guy."
Oh yeah! I remember that! If memory serves me correctly, we got that in 55g barrels.
On a more serious note, Thanks for serving the country! Despite the carping maint and ops went thru, we'd give our lives for you guys! I salute you!
You cannot imagine how you were appreciated.
Then and now. Thank you! (From an ancient pelican.)
I guess Mobil 1 no longer makes an Aviation Motor Oil due to- I guess liability considerations. Sone pilots who crashed apparently thought that Mobil 1 was supposed to fly the plane in addition to lubricating the engine for x amount of hours.
Yeah, I think the point that you are making is no fluid is the panacea. Part of the reason I use Mobil One, to stay on topic, is that 1. It is a superior lubricant for my application. 2. Allows (not mandates) longer oil change intervals 3. Allows me a 5x advantage in maintenance. 4. Using longer oil change intervals is actually cheaper per mile of lubrication than conventional oil.
So if you have no need of some or all of these reasons then conventional oil neatly fills the bill.
Valvoline Maxlife will probably be a better choice. I've done extensive research on this oil, and it has special seal conditioners, reduced oil consumption, and similar anti-sludging properties. Doesn't have quite the cold weather start advantage, but unless you're in New England, Minn, or WI it shouldn't be a problem. On my next oil change it will be 3 quarts of Valvoline Maxlife, and 1 Quart of Valvoline Synpower to get most of the benefits of both worlds types of oil.
I did a little more snooping and found that in addition to the PAO, they use a dibasic ester plasticizer ... to help counteract the PAO's leaching effect on most engine seal materials (and possibly to help keep the additives in solution) but I have no idea how this stuff works as a lubricant or how it will hold up under intense heat.
I had an Amsoil user on another board say that Amsoil uses an ester ... but is it the same kind or is it a polyol ester like Redline? Also, it appears that Havoline is similarly formulated according to what adc100 found out.
Without reopening a festering wound, but here's a thought on what started the Mobil 1/aviation debate, it's possible ALL of you are right ... at least to some degree. Doesn't Mobil have an aviation program? Might they put their (possibly mil-spec) aviation lubricant in Mobil 1 drums? Maybe a supplier/contractor did that. I know of paint manufacturers that would do things like that for wholesale customers. If you bought enough of their stuff, they would package it any way you wanted. I've also seen things packaged funny just out of immediate necessity. Perhaps someone happened to have Mobil 1 drums on hand when the order needed to be fulfilled?
--- Bror Jace
then look the rest of the site
In a nutshell, there were two problems found with synthetic oil in general, at least one of which ultimately caused airplanes to fall out of the sky. To understand the causes, you must first understand the nature of how both cars and light aircraft are generally used. Typically your car is driven on a very regular basis, with few if any times where the car is not driven for durations of even a week or more. On the other hand, the typical light aircraft can routinely sit for weeks or even months between flights. Another difference between the two vehicle types is that virtually every car in the US runs on unleaded fuel, while virtually every light airplane in the US runs on 100LL (Low Lead). To summarize the differences, cars are frequently driven and run on unleaded fuel, planes often have long durations of inactivity and run on leaded fuel.
Problems with synthetic oil in light piston engined aircraft:
1) INTERNAL CORROSION: Because of the superior stability and flow properties of synthetic oil, it has a tendency to not generate varnish and other deposits on internal engine parts AND has a tendency to gradually run off said internal engine parts and back into the sump after the engine is shut down. This is not a problem for a car that has frequent use (or even an airplane for that matter) because the engine is constantly re-coating said internal engine surfaces with oil. Why is this important? Fact: when an engine sits outside, there is the typical warming and cooling of the air that will also cause the engine to warm and cool as well although with a slightly delayed cycle. As a result, an engine that has warmed during the day will still be slightly warmer than the ambient air temperature at night as the air is cooling. So what? The so what comes when said cool engine is exposed to the warm moist air of the next day, instant condensation. Unless there is a barrier of engine oil or varnish on the aforementioned internal engine parts, rust and corrosion will start to develop after only a short period of time. After enough time has passed, the engine requires a complete teardown and rebuild. It is ironic that the low-tech Dino Juice is actually the preferred lubricant given its ability to coat the inside of the engine with varnish due to its instability and its essentially superior ability to cling to the inside of the engine due to its inferior flow properties when cool.
2) POOR LEAD SCAVENGING: Since WWII there have been many experiments with synthetic oil. Very early on, it was identified that synthetic oil made a very poor lead scavenger, whereas good old Dino Juice is a very capable lead scavenger. In piston engines run with leaded fuel AND being lubricated with full synthetic oil, it was discovered that most pistons would be incapable of passing a cylinder leak down test after only 600-700 hours of operation. When said engines were torn down, soft pliable gray deposits were discovered on the piston rings and to a lesser degree on the valve seats and valves. This gray stuff was, as you might guess, lead.
Given these two problems, I have always been mystified as to the reason that Mobil even attempted to market AV1. Regarding the lead issue, I am unaware of any lead deposit issues from the use of AV1, so maybe Mobil used a semi-synthetic formula in AV1, or utilized some other additives that were successful at scavenging the lead, however, MANY engines were reduced to rebuildable cores due to internal rust, corrosion and surface pitting of critical components like cylinder walls, valve stems and guides and in some cases, piston rings. Not a good thing.
Maybe some of you ex-military aviation types (I am ex Marine Grunt myself) have some more info on the AV1 issue.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Wasn't there a class action suit against Mobil re: av syn use in recips?
Semper Fi Shipo
You are correct about the class action suit. The GA community won, sort of. Mobil agreed to pay for SOME damage on SOME specific engines. As a result, many folks had to foot the bill for top end repairs themselves. :-(
Best Regards,
Shipo
From what I have read about the new SL classification of engine oil the big change is reduced zinc...which actually reduces engine protection. That zinc seems to degrade the effectiveness of catalytic convertors and may cause them to fail earlier (and the manufacturer has to warranty that converter for 100k miles from what I've read). Basically the new classification is for environmental reasons and cuts down on manufacturer liability,,,but the cost is that zinc is a metal protection componant and it is reduced....which contributes to us consumers possibly looking at increased engine oil related problems (outside of normal engine warranty of course!)
I tried to find where I read all that but I can't find it, anybody have any more info on what I'm talking about? The page I remember shows all the changes at each oil grade classification sh,sj so on...
From what I have read about the new SL classification of engine oil the big change is reduced zinc...which actually reduces engine protection. That zinc seems to degrade the effectiveness of catalytic convertors and may cause them to fail earlier (and the manufacturer has to warranty that converter for 100k miles from what I've read). Basically the new classification is for environmental reasons and cuts down on manufacturer liability,,,but the cost is that zinc is a metal protection componant and it is reduced....which contributes to us consumers possibly looking at increased engine oil related problems (outside of normal engine warranty of course!)
I tried to find where I read all that but I can't find it, anybody have any more info on what I'm talking about? The page I remember shows all the changes at each oil grade classification sh,sj so on...
I just said what I saw, they were carrying Mobile 1, not as a cargo but as as a standard item like spare tires. Of course, I did not see any crew putting the oil itself, so I really can't say they used it.
The person I talked with said that they would soon be selling a 5w-20 Mobil 1.
It's back to the future, back to its original 1970's viscosity.
John
John
BUT ...
I ran across this little tidbit on a less-than-reputable site. It said that some PAO was necessary to make an oil pass MIL-L-46167.
Any verification or comments?
--- Bror Jace
Cannot comment on the PAO regarding the listed Mil-Spec. It might be interesting to find out what the real story is.
Barnone,
IMHO, if you are changing you oil every three months, you are wasting your money by using ANY synthetic.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Much appreciated,
Dave
Best Regards,
Shipo
1. I assume that synthetics provide better cold starts.
2. If ever the radiator looses coolant, I assume that synthetics would prevent severe damage.
3. I assume that synthetics provide dirt-suspending properties & detergent something.
4. I assume that synthetics provide better lubricating properties.
I change oil every three months as not to void the warranty & I drive 90% stop&go city driving.
I use 25% syn & 75% dino (like the blend-stuff) so as not to waste money on my short oil-change interval.
Do I have the correct assumptions? Can anyone provide insights to my naive impressions?
Thanks.
1) Yes, a full crankcase of synthetic oil will provide better cold starts, especially as the temperature starts dropping below freezing. I doubt if a 25% mix of synthetic will buy you much.
2) I would not bet on synthetic bailing you out if a radiator hose lets go. In the immortal words of former Chicago Mayor Daly, “Change your hoses early, and change them often.” Actually, I think he said "Vote early and Vote often." ;-)
3) Once again, a full crankcase of synthetic oil will have greater capabilities to suspend contaminants, however, I doubt if a 25% mix of synthetic will provide a significant improvement over a full dose of Dino Juice.
4) Hmmm, well sort of. Dino Juice fresh out of the can should have about the same lubricity as fresh Mobil 1. The difference is after say, 7000 miles, the Dino Juice is all but exhausted, while the Mobil 1 is still good to go.
“I change oil every three months as not to void the warranty & I drive 90% stop&go city driving.” What manufacturer requires a three-month oil change interval?
If you want the benefits of synthetic oil, use it undiluted, AND extend you oil changes to the factory mileage/time recommendation.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Honda
barnone: Agree with shipo.
http://www.manhonda.com/
Unless you live in Canada, mid west, Montana, Wyoming, Dakotas etc. where temp is around zero often! Then months may make a diff!
Thanks again,
Dave
Which is the best? Who knows. Esters may be, but their extended drain interval is unproven (to me anyway).
Hydroprecessed- Syntec, Pennzoil, Possibly now Valvoline(partially-not sure)
PAO- Amsoil, Mobil 1, Havoline syn, Quaker State.
Maybe others.
Ester- Redline
Hope that helps.
knapp3, every company is a little different to deal with. Some will put their ingredients on on-line MSDS sheets, others will tell you over the phone if you call their 800 number. But, some will lie to you. I talked to a guy who called Castrol 1 year ago and they told him their formula was PAO when in fact they've been using hydrocracked crude (UHVI mineral stocks) Since January of 1998.
--- Bror Jace
You're probably right about not knowing which is best. I feel a little like I'm driving an old car that get 15 mpg and debating whether to buy a new one that gets 30 mpg, or one that gets 30.1 mpg. Thanks again.
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html
Question: Red Line Oil claims to have 100 percent polyolester base stocks. Are these different or better than the base stocks used in Mobil 1?
Answer: We are very familiar with polyolesters. In fact, we manufacture them and use them in our aviation jet engine oils such as Mobil® Jet Oil II and Mobil® Jet Oil 254 and in our refrigeration compressor lubricants, where the polyolesters are utilized for their compatibility with new HFC refrigerants. Polyolesters are indeed excellent at high-temperature oxidation stability and low volatility.
However, our work on automobile engines and jet engine designs has shown that polyalphaolefins offer the best all-around performance for gasoline engines:
From being completely compatible with conventional oils and gasoline engine seals.
To providing both low- and high-temperature performance.
To providing a stable oil in the presence of water and moisture.
To having anti-rust capabilities.
Question: Red Line Oil talks about "four-ball wear," "load wear," "Falex wear" and "Timken psi load" for their synthetic oil. Are these valid tests?
Answer: These tests are low-cost tests generally used to determine the performance properties of grease. They do not correlate with engine performance tests. For example, the use of an additive such as lead naphthenate would yield excellent results in these bench (or lab) tests, but would cause excessive oxidation of an oil in an engine and would cause a motor oil to fail the industry standard oxidation test known as the Sequence III test.
None of the tests referenced are used by API in determining gasoline engine oil performance (SJ is the current, most severe oil classification), nor by engine manufacturers. The API approval requires the following tests:
L-38 for bearing corrosion.
Sequence IIIE for oxidation, deposits and wear.
Sequence VE for sludge, wear and varnish.
Sequence IID for rust.
This slate of tests can cost over $75,000 to run –considerably more than the simple bench tests mentioned.
now this statement "They do not correlate with engine performance tests. For example, the use of an additive such as lead naphthenate would yield excellent results in these bench (or lab) tests, but would cause excessive oxidation of an oil in an engine and would cause a motor oil to fail the industry standard oxidation test known as the Sequence III test".. has some truth to it and is downplaying the importance of wear protection with the use of proper barrier lubes. they use the lead naphthenate as an example and they are correct, it would case a fail status with api due to high levels of oxidation. but use a properly blended amount of say mos2 souluble, and the oxidation levels would not increase but the barrier protectant would increase significantly.
i'm not a red line rep, but i strongly believe that what most people miss is the barrier protection of an oil. everyone is so focused on the base oil (synth or mineral) and dont really understand that in an engine, oil shears in many places, and where this happens, the base oil cannot stand up to the extreme pressure and the barrier lube takes over. this is why most oils use zddp to assist for antiwear.. redline uses mos2 or moly which has a higher level of extreme pressure properties. only thing i don't like about redline is they have too much, which if you tend to try and run extended drains may find the oxidation levels to increase more than say amsoil in the same amount of time, but redlines antiwear protection is better than amsoils. amsoil uses a higher level than allowed zddp which was normal for older api rated oil like api SH. another point, mobil does have an oil out there with mos2 in it as do a few other specialty oils such as the one i use personally. so dont miss the focus on wear protection. base oils are a good carrier lube for the antiwear additives and must maintain the abilitly to flow in sub cold weather and long durations of heat but with out the antiwear additives, the base oil would not do all that well by itself.
one other point, the fourball test was designed as a grease test. the test would test oils with the consisitancy viscosity of grease in a ball rolling against a race. something that isn't present in an engine.
the falex/timken test was designed as a shear test for oils with the viscosity of motor oils. one non moving suface sliding against a moving suface like in a bearing on a crank or a lifter against the camshaft in an engine.
bob in jville
Lubricant Specialist
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
A company the size of Mobil ought to be content to dominate the market but instead they have to take a shot at a niche player with a bunch of salesman mistruths.
Red Line is going after a narrow (even by synthetic oil standards) portion of the market, why should Mobil care? Well, I think it is a guy-and-anatomy thing. Mobil has gotten wind that some dude out there has one bigger than theirs and their ego is hurt, hence the snippy bit on their site.
They're probably doing the same to Motul overseas as they use polyol ester stocks in some of their better formulas.
As Bob said, there is a lot of half-truth to what they are saying. Those tests may not be directly applicable to auto engines but they indicate desirable qualities nonetheless.
I used Red Line over 5 months and 7,200 miles and my TBN was 4.5. I don't think I have anything to fear from water and/or corrosion.
I often wonder about oils and racing. I remember Al Holbert racing Porsche 962s in IMSA competition 15+ years ago. They said that the oil they ran at the time (Quaker State 20W50, I think) was the same oil you could buy off the shelf. I'm not sure about that but I would doubly doubt that today.
If you are for real in racing, you use a special racing oil that has more lubricant and less fuel dilution and detergent additives.
I've been having fun over the past 2-3 months watching the Mid-Ohio SCCA Runoffs (sponsored by Valvoline) on Speedvision. There were 35 races, I think, all different classes. About 2 out of 3 of those guys use Red Line oil. That says a lot to me. I only saw one guy who used Mobil 1 ... and he blew his motor (no lie). >;^) Some Valvoline users and one or two Amsoil guys did OK but almost no one used anything else, Castrol, QS, Havoline, Pennzoil, etc ...
Red Line will sell their racing oils over-the-counter to anyone. I wonder if you contact Mobil's racing program do they tell you to go to Walmart and pick up jugs of their 15W50? Since the (proudly!) downgraded their additive package, those lubes are no longer suitable for racing. I assume that Mobil has some better blends, probably including polyol and a healthy dose of additives, but they don't sell theirs like Red Line does. I don't know why. Perhaps they don't want to suggest that their mass-market formula is anything less than the best? Well, they can't have it both ways.
Actually, I assume this of all the professional racers. It doesn't matter what brand name you have on the side of your car, they're probably ALL using polyol or a polyol blend. I assume that Castrol's corporate racing sponsorship program is big enough to be able to whip up some special blends using whatever they can obtain from polyol/PAO/ester producers.
This dawned on me when I saw two NHRA drag racers going at each other. One was the Castrol GTX car while the other was the Castrol Syntec car. Am I supposed to believe that these guys were using radically different formulas like the names on their cars suggested? I assume they both used the same polyol-heavy 50-70W racing oil that was probably polyol based.
I watched the Rolex 24 hour race at Daytona. It was fun but the odd thing was I could find NO oil sponsors on any of the cars ... not a single one. (???)
Well, the long and short of it is that Mobil can go cry in their beer. >:^D
--- Bror Jace
I understand what I think you are trying to say. My question, is it worth the 9 bucks a qt to switch from Mobil One 5w-30 @3 bucks a qt? The car in question is a Corvette Z06, which as you probably know recomends Mobil One 5w-30-10w30 and comes factory filled with Mobil One 5w-30.
A bit off center: I am almost 60% convinced to go to Redline for the gear oil and ATF application for I have the 6 speed manual.