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The problem seems to highlight two of six important properties of synthetic oil. (there are app 6 total)
One being: % sulfated ash (lower # being better).
"% sulfated ash is how much solid material is left when oil burns. A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life."...
Two being: flash point (higher # being better),
"Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil....The higher the flash point the better"....
Parts of the article quoted and the full text of an interesting article is at:
http://www.vtr.org/maintain/oil-overview.html
The bottom line is that: 1. synthetic has a very very low % sulfated ash content (not measurable)
2. synthetic oil has a higher flash point than conventional oil.
An MSDS indicates what's in a chemical product. Unless you really know something about chemical additives in an oil, including their interaction and what amounts do what, you may as well be picking oil by taste, because you can't predict how it will perform.
The only thing of much use to an informed laymen is the technical data sheet for a particular oil. There are also some standard oil tests done in running engines. They are however done in a lab with only several different engines, following a standardized sequence. It's not real world and may not have been done on the type of engine you have.
The only valid testing is to have the oil analyzed periodically for a particular engine. Then you know if the oil is doing what it's supposed to.
"The only valid testing is to have the oil analyzed periodically for a particular engine. Then you know if the oil is doing what it's supposed to. "
The other thing that is not mentioned much is this can be said for both synthetic and probably more importantly for conventional oil.
"API intentionally omitted “SI” and “SK” from the sequence of categories because the letters are commonly associated with other organizations or systems."
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/ACF28.pdf
What kind of synthetic oil do you use in your Intrigue? When do you change it?
Also, anyone heard or used Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40?
Basically:
A=Gasoline
B=Light Duty Diesel
1=Low Friction,Low Viscosity
2=General Purpose General Purpose Normal Drain
3=High Performance Extended Drain
4= This is a diesel spec for I think stable viscosity
5=High Performance, Extended Drain, Low friction/viscosity,
98 for example is the year of the spec
Link:
http://www.acea.be/acea/oilsequences2002.pdf
Why does GM recommend 10W30 for your Buick, yet Toyota recommends 5W30 for my Solara? Would 10W30 offer anything more than the 5W30?
thanks.
As to why the 10W30 is in the manual for the 3.8L, no idea. 5W30 is suggested if temp is really low, consistently around zero.
Even in my Mercury wher the 5W is recommended I used a 10W for two years and now use a 0W but I see no diff in start up etc. Maybe just not cold enough here
Does anyone using 100% synthetic (not blend) motor oil and changed their oil at above stated interval also experiencing engine sludge problem?
I have a 2001 Sienna and I had my first oil change at 2K. I replaced with Mobil 1 oil & filter. I changed the oil 6 month later using Amsoil oil & filter. I have no problem. I changed from Mobil 1 to Amsoil because Mobil recently changed their formula in their production of Mobil 1.
Maybe using 100% synthetic motor oil might avoid sludge problem because synthetic oil can absorb a higher tempeture so the oil would not breakdown so easily. Any comments welcome and will definitely help all Sienna owners.
And again the notion that Mobil was recently changed-if true- would probably occur to improve additive package. Still looking for information-as yet-no proof. But again-nothing wrong with Amsoil.
Now that the history lesson is out the way, back on to this thread's topic.
The 3.5 uses 5W-30. I was surprised because my '98 w/3800 used 10W-30. While the owners manual says that 10W-30 can be used, it is not the "recommended" grade. I've been told that the switch to 5W-30 was because it has more moving parts than the 3800 pushrod so the thin oil would better work its way thru the engine better and easier. I don't know. One "characteristic" of the 3.5 is that it tends to burn one quart of oil between changes. Since 5W-30 is for colder temps, Pennsylvania doesn't get cold enough to justify 5W-30 all the time. So I'm going to try 10W-30 to see if the thicker oil stops the oil consumption. One thing I did notice is that when it is cold (temps below 40 degrees F) there was no oil consumption at all. The 3800 never used a drop by the time it was hit at 80,000.
I used the oil life monitor and still do. It usually comes on between 3,000 and 5,000 miles. At 80K it purred like a kitten. Only time will tell how the 3.5 will endure.
Go to www.amsoil.com or http://www.pecuniary.com/pecuniary.html
for the 5W20.
The last oil change I switched to Mobil 1 5W-30 and the noise disappeared immediately and has not returned. Could I have been hearing piston slap or bearing knock? If so, how did the synthetic oil silence the noise? Incidentally, the engine otherwise runs perfectly and uses no oil between changes.
Your diagnosis and advice would be much appreciated.
Thank You
Jerry Agresti
The only way I could quiet it was to use Red Line synthetic oil which has moly in it. Other oil which use moly as an extreme pressure lubricant might do the same thing. The car now has 114,000 miles on it and still runs great.
I've heard of Pontiac Gran-Ams (3.1L v-6?) having the same piston slap problem ... but at ridiculously low mileage like 20,000 miles or so.
--- Bror Jace
"With regard to the interval at which you should change the oil in your
2002 Mazda MPV, the Owner's Manual states on page 8-4 to "change engine
oil and replace filter - every 6 months or 7,500 miles". The Owner's
Manual also states on page 8-3 if your driving habits include one or
more of the following conditions: (a)repeated short-distance driving,
(b)driving in dusty conditions, (c)driving with extended use of brakes,
(d)driving in areas where salt or other corrosive materials are being
used, (e)driving on rough or muddy roads, (f)extended periods of idling
or low-speed operation, (g)driving for long periods in cold
temperatures
or extremely humid climates, change engine oil and oil filter every 4
months or 5,000 miles whichever occurs first.
With regard to using synthetic oil in your 2002 Mazda MPV, Mazda does
not recommend synthetic oil for any Mazda vehicles."
i have used synthetic oil in 4 different vehicles and in 3 of the 4 i was blowing out gaskets etc.
(96 trans am, 51 pontiac, 85 toy 4x4)
the 4th car was a 98 corvette that comes from the factory with mobil 1, no problems with it
if your vehicle can handle it, great, it will decrease the wear but i wont take a chance on blowing any more seals
It seems to me that, if anything, the oil pressure should be exactly the same or a little lower (unless you switched from 10W-30 dino juice to 15W-50 synthetic). Given that at cold temperatures, synthetic oil flows better that dino juice of similar specs, the synthetic will have LOWER oil pressure than regular oil, assuming that the pressure check valve limit has not yet been reached, in which case, both will have the same pressure.
“ i have used synthetic oil in 4 different vehicles and in 3 of the 4 i was blowing out gaskets etc.”
Precious few gaskets on a typical engine are exposed to high pressure oil, if you were having problems with pan gaskets or valve cover gaskets, then I submit to you that you need to look for another cause given the fact that oil pressure has no effect on those types of gaskets, a head gasket on the other hand might be a different story.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Pressure is highest at the pump and gradually decreases through the engine and finally is the least in the sump just before the pump.
Woneil could have had some seals start leaking (possibly start leaking faster) after starting to use the synthetic oil that was able to clean some deposits at those seal interfaces and start getting out,,,that could be considered "blowing out" a seal,,,if any seal was physically dislodged then there was obviously some SERIOUS pressure increase, hopefully not from any dislodged large pieces of carbon/crud that blocked a passage and REALLY backed up some flow.
Sounds more like it was just seal seepage gone bad, we all hear about valve cover/timing gear gaskets leaking when changing to synthetics
Woneil, if you want to use the synthetics, they seem to do better for people that have lower mileage engines at the time they start using it, on older engines it may not buy you much anyway because much of the engine wear may have already occurred and it can't be undone (check out the STP conversations about THAT subject :^) I get killed on that one he he...
I imagine one of these days all engine oil will be synthetic and all engines will be made expecting it to be used in them.
Don't write synthetic oil off yet, I'm sure they are just beginning to really get better, and they are already pretty good
Quite frankly most manufacturers don't outwardly admit to either extended oil drains, or recommend driving with synthetic oil.
I currently use 3 quarts Maxlife, and 1 quart Synpower in my Mazda. No noticible difference. Like anti sludging, anti-wear, and extra cleaning properties of Maxlife. Will test in 5-6k and post results here.
Fact: While Mazda doesn't recommend synthetic oils in general for its rotary engines, experience and testing have shown that Mobil 1 provides superior performance in rotary engines. Check with your Mazda representative concerning warranty questions.
"The Mazda MPV is manufactured in Japan. Although Ford had a hand in the
type of engine equipped in the vehicle, they have no further
involvement
with this vehicle. Unfortunately, there is no contact person at Ford
that I can refer to you. Our position stands, Mazda does not recommend
using synthetic oil in any of our vehicles."
As expected they are in between conventional and synthetic oils in performance. Cost about $2.25 per quart. Lab tests show that this mixture gives about 80% of the anti wear protection of full syn. No great benefit in startup. No extended intervals. I've used a syn blend for years in 2 of my cars.
Recently converted one to a higher mileage oil. Will see how it performs.
Shift points "seemed" to have changed. I know they didn't; the reason for the perception is that the engine has such a noticeable increase in power that I don't lay on the pedal as hard as in the past to get the same result. I atttribute this to the synth reducing friction so the energy that formerly was being transferred as heat is now being used efficiently by the engine. Am I on the right track?
Now the question. Mrdetailer is right on with the price of syn blend. From his experience it is better than regular dino. But why? How much better is it than regular syrup? And is it close enough to full syn to save myself $12 (Intrigue 3.5 uses 6 quarts)? Mobil and QuakerState were mentioned. What are your thoughts on Castrol? Pensoil had a synth but the price was the same as syn blend and the labeling made it look like it was a no frills brand (marketing does work). Has anyone used Pensoil syn or heard anything about it?
My 2000 Accord SE has 27,000 miles and I have had the oil changed every 3,750 miles as suggested for severe conditions (7,500 regular conditions) by the owners manual. I only drive 4.5 miles to work and figure this qualifies me for severe. I want to compare the oil analysis of my old dino oil to the synthetic after 7,500 miles and see if there is any bad news. If there is I plan to stick with synthetic and change the filter every 3,750, run another analysis and if necessary change both the oil and filter every 3,750 miles.
My dilemna is simple. I don't know jack about testing oil. Where do I go? How much should it cost? What am I looking for when I get the analysis? Is my whole plan feasible or am I just spinning my wheels?
Make sure you pay extra to get the TBN, total base number because that shows the amount of additives remaining. They should be no lower than 2, but I prefer no lower than 3.
I have several jugs of the SJ oil, and am wondering IF I should give it away, and purchase the latest SL rated Mobil 1?
DHG
should show as a hyperlink but go to this page and it shows the differences. SL basically has decreased the zinc componant in an effort to help catalytic converters last longer,,,zinc is also a metal protector also, by the way
I agree with ARMTDM, just use up the oil you have on hand, next time you buy any it will be the SL grade on the shelf (already is in most places)
Ah, in love, now if only I had the $225,000!
You will find very few to exceed that percentage.
The blend I use is a solvent refined, severely hydro-finished 100% paraffin base oils and 28% polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base fluid.
Even if you were to "mix" or "blend" your own as some seem to do, can you tell what % of pao is in a "full" synth? did you realize that a "full" synth isn't a true "full" synth and has a "blend" of mineral in it as well? Like castrol, most all synth's are a blend. some have higher levels of esters than some others.
since base stock is the issue your talking about here, lets talk about that.. do u know how to tell from the tech data sheet what kind of base oil is used?.. often times the flash point shown on the tech data sheets gives and indication of what base oil is used.
basic naphthenic flashpoint 350-370..
naph/parhf,mix called paraffinic, flashpoint 410..
100%pure paraffin base flashpoint 475-500..
pao synth flashpoint 495-525..
ok, now u have a base of flash points for the type of base oil now look at the flash point on your oils,
AMSOIL 100% Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil (ATM)..Flash Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 92) ..230 (446)
now taking that into consideration, that shows to fall somewhere in the 100% pure paraffin base flash point. ok, that means it's not a full synth.. it has a blend of sorts, cause if it was a full synth it would be higher flash point,..
here's one.. SynLube™ over 500°F (260°C)
now that shows pure synth.
mobil tri synth Flash Point, ASTM D 92, °C (°F).. 243 (470).. it to most likely doesn't have a pure full synth.
ok, schaeffers full synth..Flash Point °F/°C (ASTM D-92) 465°/240.5° .. it too, isn't totally a full synth without some mix.
so point being, don't fall into the trap thinking it's nothing more than a full synth with no other mix.. out of all of these posted, synlube seems to qualify as the only true full synth.
now there is exceptions to all this but i think u can see what i'm saying. again, base stock is important, but.. it's just one part of the mix and it isn't the part that really protects the motor from wear.
Another thing i constantly hear people stating that synth flows easier than it's mineral counter part. in cold weather starting visc i understand that the synth will flow to lower temps, but lets look at this.
we know that the rate of speed in which oil flows past 2 given points at a set temp dictates the Cst or SUS which converts to a specific weight classification of an oil in terms of viscosity (operating temp).
so if oil is measured at the 100deg C, a 10w30 mineral oil timed a flow at 12.4 cst, and a synth 10w30 is measured at 100 deg C and produces also a 12.4 cst, how is it that the synth oil flows easier than the mineral? the measurements are the same, time and viscosity(reffering to operating viscoisty only not cP lower visc)..
bob
Lubricant Specialist
Mobil 1 is a fully synthetic motor oil for automotive engines. It is made from a mixture of polyalphaolefin (PAO), synthetic ester and an alkylated aromatic fluid.
http://www.mobil1.com/index.jsp
To the best of my understanding, it means that the oil is synthetic in the sense, that the all three main components in the mix are artificially (chemically) synthesided from more simple molecules.
However, Mobil does not claim that the base oil is PAO. Just the opposite: Mobil want everybody know that it is not simply PAO, and that the manufacturer is proud of this. Mobil even named the oil brand "Tri-Synthetic", for nobody have any doubts.
Most probably, the oil contains more PAO than other components. At least it must be so "linguistically", because PAO was listed on the first place. Linguistically it does not necessary contains even 50% of PAO, though.
Mobil is avoiding to publish the ratios in the mix. Would a competitor decide to "reverse engineer" the oil, though, it can hire competent chemists to analyse the fluid...