Ruking, I'm becoming a big Red Line fan but I understand it's a big committment for people to go that route. So, while I remain skeptical of the mass-market synthetics, they are still probably OK. I just won't extend my drain intervals with them at all.
If you drive your car hard, then I'd suggest Red Line. If you just tool around town, I'd go with a mass-market synthetic and change it at 4-5,000 miles.
Either way, I'd get a couple samples tested to verify the soundness of your choice.
On the subject of wear. Mobil's 5W-30 passed a quadruple Sequence VE with acceptable cam/lifter wear (thats 256 hrs vs 64 hrs) That was in '95 when they were developing the current generation of "Tri-Synthetic". None of their "high quality" syn competetors which they tested against was able to accomplish that. While they did not mention the competitors-none of them was RedLine. You could tell because they indicated whether the oil was a PAO/Ester or S-HDP(severely hydroprocessed). None was a straight Ester.
Broe</> I have no doubt that RedLine is a higher performing Lub. I would worry about the ability of RedLine to hold up over the long haul. Especially because Esters are less stable in water and also there is the seal issue. There really is no objective information, other than RedLines claims that it is a suitable long term lub(IMHO). I'd be interested in seeing something. Are you aware of anything.
So, the consensus is that Red Line is better ... but how much better, eh? Well, I've struggled with that myself and decide that with a longish drain interval of 7,500-8,000 miles, I can use it safely and the cost increase is negligible.
As for long-term effects on seals, I don't know of a single problem or complaint about leaking or failure. I'll be running my silly little Civic for at least another year or so and any leaking which develops will cause me to make everyone I know aware of the problem. That's the best I can do. My analysis shows that my oil had a lot of it's original base number left and had no moisture problem. So, with my somewhat extended intervals, I have no concerns. Red Line says their oils are good for up to 10-18,000 miles. Now, I have no intention of letting mine go that far ... but my testing makes me believe their numbers would hold true for a low-load, less RPM-intensive application.
If someone who's been doing oil analysis a while can show/tell me about problems that don't show up in analysis, please do so. I'm something of a neophyte at that stuff.
I was watching more SCCA racing Sunday and some other things jumped out at me. First of all, I don't think UHVI mineral stocks existed in 1995 ... at least they weren't available commercially as "synthetic". I'm pretty sure Castrol broke new ground early in 1998 when they made their infamous switcharoo.
I also have to take back what I said about Mobil's racing program. Who knows what these guys have going on? But I gather it isn't easy to get special treatment from them. I got into an argument (who, me?) with a Mobil employee on another board who worked in one of their Texas plants ... that made or distributed Mobil 1. He was complaining because I was talking about Mobil 1 being questionable (after seeing the results from wtd's infamous analysis) and he ripped into me for "scaring" people away from Mobil 1 and (presumably) to Red Line. He had a number of expensive street toys and he as well raced so I imagine he was high up enough on the corporate ladder to be familiar with their racing program. In all of his racing cars he admitted to using Red Line Oil. >;^)
Perhaps, if Mobil has a racing program offering custom blended lubes to race teams, it's at such a high level that only a small, elite group (Formula 1, CART, some others?) get the benefit of their resources and expertise. If Mobil wants to be this way, they DESERVE to have a #2 reputation (or #3, #4, etc ...) among serious performance guys.
I also like the way Mobil says that Red Line should fork over the big bucks in order to test their formulas. Well, that's easy for a massive, multi-national corporation to say! They have money to burn on things like testing!
Actually, Red Line does a really poor job marketing their stuff. The only publication they advertise in is Grassroots Motorsports (that I've seen) and it's a small B&W ad. They only thing that keeps them afloat is their reputation among racers and serious gearheads. If a bunch of these guys drop out of the car scene all at once without passing on their knowledge to newcomers, Red Line would be in financial trouble in a hurry.
I probably had 500 words written before I realized that after 2653 posts whatever I say isn't going to make a difference. All this jibber-jabber is worn out rhetoric with no direction or real insight.
Goodbye, Mobil 1. Farewell, Amsoill! Adios, Redline! I'm putting http://www.bobistheoilguy.com in my crankcase and leave it at that.
Well, other then cost and difficulty in locating this stuff my main problem with RedlIne for the everyday commuter is exactly what is stated above by Brorjace. Their main focus is on racing, it is not on the everyday commuter. What a racing engine requires is so much different then the average driver and "most racing engines are torn down and rebuilt after every race" and racing oils are not designed for reducing wear and increasing long term durability, they are designed to give maximum performance for a short period of time. So, are RedLines oils (their 10W30 regular synthetic) designed for racing or the everyday commuter? No one knows.
Their testimonials are mostly racing, not the average Joe going 200,000 miles over 10 years. Do I use their products,. Well, I use their gear oil in my twin turbo 6 spd becuase it truly makes a difference in the way it shifts. The oil, no, I use Amsoil 10W30 with an Amsoil filter because I don't race the car and long term wear is more important to me. Plus, I have used Amsoil for the past 10 years in over 7 different cars without issue so far. And for me I can get it for $4.35/quart.
Mobil 1 is a great oil and they certainly have proven that for the average driver it does work! Not sure that RedLine has done this as yet!
And as Bob has said, RedLine would not get API certified due to the excessive amount of moly used as an additive. Amsoil is not either due to the excessive amount of zinc used to reduce wear. So, guess it is whatever floats your boat!
I have read 2 of their SAE publications. They run extensive long range durability tests (200K) and double/tripple/quadruple API Sequence tests. This takes time.
I'm of the opinion that "racing improves the breed".
I think that was a saying leftover from Jaguar's glory days in the 50s and 60s.
Redline actually has two sets of formulas, one for the street, another for the track. Supposedly, both are polyol ester based but the additive packages are substantially different. The racing formulas tend to be more lubricant-intensive and light on detergents and other additives that preserve it over time ... like additives which fight corrosion and fuel-dilution. As I pointed out, I left my oil in for 7,200 miles over 5 months and had no evidence of corrosion. My iron and aluminum levels were very low compared to the averages Blackstone provided me for comparison.
Seeing that cars in general (and the cars I like more specifically) are more and more like racing machines every year. They run hotter and get their power is achieved higher-up in the rev range than ever before. Both these conditions take their toll on motor oil. I also talk to kids that drag race ... or parking lot race (SCCA Solo). Your basic dino oils aren't designed to spend that much time near the engine's red line. It's better safe then sorry.
AS for Mobil 1, their additive package is now so weak, I don't trust this stuff for high-performance applications or extended drains. Sure they do more lab testing ... but only because they are bigger and can afford the tests. Racers that pay for and rebuild their own motors (seeing the results) prefer the protection that Red Line gives.
armtdm is right about the additives screwing up API certification. Amsoil uses lots and lots of zinc and phosphorous while Red Line uses those (in smaller amounts) but adds molybdenum as well. The API certifications reflect the auto industry pressuring the lubricant industry to cut back on these extremely useful compounds in the name of preserving emissions equipment ... especially catalytic converters.
adc100< did you notice that Mobil 1 put Patrick Bedard's Castrol bashing article on their site? >;^D
This is not in defense of STP which I find useful only for really old beaters, but if I'm not mistaken STP has verbiage on it stating that warranties won't be violated because of its use. There's probably more zinc in STP than your typical non-API cert. oil. That being the case how does STP get by with it?
From memory I think API cert. is called for in my 97 Cavalier, but Hyundai allows 10W40 as an option to their preferred 10W30, therefore API cert. isn't a warranty requirement there.
AS for Mobil 1, their additive package is now so weak, I don't trust this stuff for high-performance applications or extended drains.
I've seen you say this a couple of times, but i'd like to know exactly what your basis is for this opinion. What test do you know of that really shows the additive package is weak?
Sure they do more lab testing ... but only because they are bigger and can afford the tests.
Um, maybe, maybe not. There's cheap tests redline could do, and being able to afford tests doesn't automatically mean you'll do well.
I also don't really think racers using redline means very much. Redline's gone after that market very heavily--iv'e gotten their slick little racer ads.
Not saying that redline is "bad" by any means, but i don't really see your foundation in your opinions of it's superiority.
Last time I checked, replacing the converter was an expensive repair. $350.00 for the part alone. at least 2 hours of labor. Much cheaper to buy an SL with ILSC GF-3 standard with more anti-sludging capacity, and change it more often.
I was dismayed to see the growing anti-Mobil 1 sentiment. I am using this in both of our family vehicles and currently am sitting on about 20 quarts of 5W30 bought 6-9 months ago.
What's the current consensus-- is Mobil 1 still a "100% synthetic" oil? What about 6 months from now? A year? Two years?
It seems that Mobil 1 may be going downhill-- the very same hill that they scolded Castrol for riding with its Syntec. The news of SL certification coming in April was encouraging but I don't know if this has much to do with Mobil 1 staying 100% synthetic?
Now that I see some folks such as brorjace hesitating to recommend extended drains with Mobil 1, I'm wondering whether I should change my strategy. Currently I'm running 5000-6000 miles between oil changes, with an extra filter change halfway on one vehicle (98 Isuzu Trooper) and not on the other (95 Ford Contour SE).
I won't do oil analysis - sorry, just not into it that much and wife would think I'm totally nuts.
I don't mind changing petrol-based oil every 3000-4000 miles, which is cheaper than Mobil 1 with 5000-6000 mile change intervals. I don't really consider Amsoil or Redline a worthy alternative for me-- per-quart cost too high for me to justify, not readily available at my corner store, and our vehicles aren't really run that hard anyway.
There seem to be fewer and fewer "true" synthetic oils. I thought I was playing it safe with Mobil 1, though I was always somewhat skeptical of how highly thought of it and other PAO oils were in comparison to the "fake" synthetics such as Syntec and Pennzoil.
to the regulars on this and the other oil-related boards. You guys are some of the most helpful, thoughtful, informative, literate, well-spoken internet discussion forum participants that I've seen anywhere.
People such as Tom, adc100, armtdm, brorjace, mrdetailer, tboner, and others make this board a joy to read.
I don't always get into the technical details as much as some of you, but I look forward to your analysis, observations, anecdotes, conclusions, and recommendations.
Also, the moderators here and at the other Town Hall forums I follow and participate in are top-notch, in my opinion.
I also have 97 Rodeo (3.2L)and a 96 Contique (Zetec) so I am familiar with these two. Granted I use Amsoil but even if I used Mobil I would not alter my habits which are 7,500 on the Isuzu (no filter in between, shorter trips on this one) and one year (8,000-10,000 miles) with a filter at 6 months on the Contique. Oil analysis on both appear fine so your interval of 5-6,000 appears very reasonable to me.
I don't know if Mobil has altered its' manufactiring process for Mobil 1 but a few years ago I was at a meeting of Amsoil and asked the lead chemist what he thought of Mobil 1 and (biased of course) said that if he could not get his product he would definitely use Mobil 1, a fine oil he said.
People such as Tom, adc100, armtdm, brorjace, mrdetailer, tboner, and others make this board a joy to read.
Perhaps in 90 days, my SVT Contour will have a significant horsepower increase. It is amazing how much energy you can generate with a bit of exhaust gas 8^)
Stay tuned, I'm sure there will be an oil related component to my horsepower quest.
Thanks for the compliment, but a lot of it is just thoughtful opinion. Which speaking of opinions: I wouldn't be too hasty to trash Mobil 1. There is no proof that I have heard to indicate that Mobil has cheapened up.
The only issue I have heard is the lower level of the zinc in their anti-wear system. Mobil addressed this issue in Technical Paper 951026, published in 1995 as they were developing the Tri-Syn formula. I am not a chemist but they are using an "all secondary" zinc anti-wear system as opposed to the "mixed primary and secondary alcohol based zinc dithiophosphate (ZDTP" It is this new system (again developed in 1994-not last year) that gave execllent antiwear (better than ZDTP) in passing the double, tripple, and quadruple API Sequence IIIE tests. In 1998 after some more improvement(Technical Paper 981444) their oils improved significantly with regards to wear. BTW the 200K extended drain tests were being performed during this period with "almost no wear". I just don't see the degredation that has been mentioned. I'd like proof. Now they tested their oils agains other brands-so you can feel confident they are better than some out there-which ones? who knows. Maybe RedLine and or Amsoil-maybe not.
With regards to RedLine. I considered trying it but since then I got rid of the vehicle I was planning to test it in. And I really don't have the confidence to use it in my new vehicle for extended drain intervals. I'm mainly concerned with seal leakage. There is no objective proof that it can go the distance in over the road driving (Unlike Mobil/Amsoil)
I'd say if you are uncomfortable-go to Amsoil vs RedLine. Again-only an opinion. I could be convinced I'm wrong, but it would take proof.
dhanley, I don't base my evaluation of Mobil 1's additive package on any test or survey, I base it on company-provided information and what I know about oils. There has been a push to lower the amount of ZDDP in oils at the time of the switch to the SJ classification. Oils have typically had between 1-1.5% ZDDP in them with high performance and race oils having even more (2.0%). Mobil 1 currently has only 0.75% and for this reason, I don't recommend it for extended drains after seeing a few tests where it appeared marginal.
As for lab testing, you can do a lot of goofy things with this. There are many variables and tests you can conduct which have a varying correlation to real world conditions. The companies with the money can pick and choose what they do
Red Line has gone after (the racer) market very heavily - I've gotten their slick little racer ads.
Um, can you give me an example of this 'slick' Red Line advertising? Because aside from one little ad I saw in Grassroots Motorsports, I don't think I've seen a single ad from them. My background is in marketing and I have to say that Red Line is absolutely pathetic in that regard. In the last couple of years I have been LOOKING for oil ads in all sorts of magazines and usually I just see ads from the major players ... and occasioanlly Amsoil.
Redline and Motul use polyol stocks which has been used by pro racers for decades. If you want to use polyol, you are limited to a few brands in this country and Red Line is the easiest/cheapest to get. Again, the guys that tear down their own engines swear but the stuff. I don't think it has anything to do with 'slick' advertising.
Mr. Detailer, We do not have emissions testing in this part of the state so I have no idea how may cat' is doing. But, my engine is still tight, didn't burn a drop of oil prior to the 100,000 mile mark so I can't believe too much oil made its way through the exhaust system. I think if you shop around, you can find cat converters for cheaper than that. Still even $350 at the 100,000 mile mark is cheaper than replacing your motor (or entire car) at the 125,000-150,000 mile mark.
BlueDevils, my jury is out on Mobil 1. I have no evidence that they are skimping on their base stocks, just the extreme pressure additives. Still, the pressure seems to be on these companies to follow Castrol's lead and dilute their PAO with UHVI hydrocracked crude. Perhaps Mobil is immune to this as they are the largest producer of PAOs in the world and might be able to get them and sell them cheaper.
If you use a mass-market synthetic oil that you currently believe is PAO, it's up to you to hound these people a couple times each year about their formula. And keep in mind, some companies will give out false information, knowingly or not, about their formula. I talked to someone who called Castrol's toll-free consumer line 1 year ago and they said that they used PAO in their Syntec, which they haven't done since 1997. Good luck!
Sorry, but i don't agree with your logic. I think the fact that mobil1 has less ZDDP is only a mark against the oil if ZDDP is the ONLY concievable way to provide protection. I don't see that we have any reason to think that that's the case.
As for lab testing, you can do a lot of goofy things with this.
True, but the same would go for redline, then. They have done a few lab tests that could as easily be as deceptive as anyone else's.
Um, can you give me an example of this 'slick' Red Line advertising?
Sure. I have a little glossy brochure that redline passes out to racers. One thing that claim is greatly enhanced fuel mileage. You think manufacturers would put the stuff in their car for EPA testing.
Maybe you haven't seen redline going after racers, but *i* sure have.
Redline and Motul use polyol stocks which has been used by pro racers for decades. If you want to use polyol, you are limited to a few brands in this country and Red Line is the easiest/cheapest to get. Again, the guys that tear down their own engines swear but the stuff. I don't think it has anything to do with 'slick' advertising.
Again, i don't see how this is a mark against mobil1 and a good thing for redline. Mobil1 is used by most f1 teams, indycr, etc. I'd think more highly of an oil if it's being used i a million dollar 20,000RPM ferarri engine as opposed to a blown corolla or something. It's also shipped as the stock oil in a lot of expensive high performance vehicles. This, to me, would indicate that people who have the money to run real tests prefer mobil-1. SCCA racers really don't have that kind of resource.
Again, i really don't see *any* basis for trusting redline and not mobil1.
Bror: anti-wear/zinc: Mobil is using an "all secondary" zinc anti-wear system as opposed to the "mixed primary and secondary alcohol based zinc dithiophosphate (ZDTP)" This new system gave execllent antiwear (better than ZDTP) in passing the double, tripple, and quadruple API Sequence IIIE tests. In 1998 after some more improvement(Technical Paper 981444) their oils improved significantly with regards to wear.
you said: Mobil 1 currently has only 0.75%(ZDTP) and for this reason, I don't recommend it for extended drains after seeing a few tests where it appeared marginal.
ZDTP doesn't exsist and Zinc content may very well be less. Mobil has performed extended drain tests(with this "low" ZDTP with "almost no wear" after 200K. Isn't that good enough??
Now about RedLine: Where's the credible documentation that their stuff can go extended intervals? (like Mobil and Amsoil)
Racing: Mobil's oils in an '91, '92, '94 Indy car indicated 43, 46,28 ppm Fe. The Mobil 1 winner of the '93 Indy had the engine torn down and all critical engine parts were in outstanding condition. We're talking 13,000 rpm here. Wear package seemed to do O/K. here also.
I would like to hear from those who have used AMSOIL SAE 10W-30 SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL, which provides "Extended Drain Intervals." Amsoil states, "No other major oil manufacturer matches AMSOIL's 25,000-mile or one-year drain interval recommendations."
Please tell me pros and cons of this product as well as on its oil filter known as "Super Duty Oil Filter (SDF)". Thanks in advance.
dhanley, you asked about additives and that's the information I gave you but I never said it was the sole factor in my recommendations and oil choices. I began using Red Line gear oils and their fuel injector cleaner nearly a decade ago but only switched to their motor oils last summer. As you can see, I didn't dive right in without a lot of consideration.
For the record, I don't do extended oil change intervals beyond 8,000 miles. If I WERE, I'd use something with a healthy additive package ... like bobistheoilguy recommended.
Other evidence against Mobil 1 are oil sample test results and right here on this site there is wtd's poor test results after only 5,000 miles on Mobil 1. I've seen others as well that were nothing to crow about.
I think I have that Red Line brochure you speak of, but I had to BUY some of their oil in order to get it. A glossy brochure hardly makes for 'slick' marketing. When I see them running full color, full page ads in 1/2 of the car magazines out there, that will be a different story.
I used synthetic oil (almost always Mobil 1) in my Civic its entire life and at 80,000 miles it developed the 'piston-slap' sound which indicates fairly normal wear of the piston skirts. Since I never went over 6,5000 miles between oil & filter changes, why didn't Mobil 1 prevent (or at least postpone) this?
The only thing that mutes my piston slap noise is Redline (even their 5W30).
As for racing, I'd be blown away to find out that the really big-buck, cutting edge racing teams used something other than a specially-tailored, custom cocktail for engine oil. F-1 example, uses a series of different fuels, etc ... and probably have different ones for racing, qualifying, different temperatures, etc ... They've been like this for over a decade. Agip blends things especially for Ferrari, for example.
When using an oil that is made specifically for one specialty application, all bets are off. You can't transfer their performance onto other applications.
adc100, where did you get the info on zinc additives?
The information in on an SAE Tech Paper 951026. If you email me I can get it to you. (I don't have it in electronic version)
To me your evidence is not that strong with regards to Mobil 1. But I can understand how you feel with you piston slap. Many vehicles exhibit this slap as an almost normal part of their heritage. GM's 3.1's are notorious for this. I had one which slapped from the day I got it (program car). 65K later it was still slapping. Perhaps I should have used RedLine!! It would appear that RedLine may have better lubricating qualities which take care of that issue. But still-I think you have to look at how does the engine hold up after 200K. And the "4-ball" ASTM type tests (as opposed to API tests) don't make it here (for me).
That '93 Indy Winner had the API/SG certified 15W-50 Mobil 1- not a designer oil. (that's in the referenced paper above)
Again, i think you're making a really big jump, from having less ZDDP to having a weak additive package--there simply isn't a connection from point one to point two, unless ZDDP is the only possible additive.
You do make a good point about your civic, and i'm not sure what to say about that. I don't think redline quieting the slap proves it would have prevented a wear problem, but it does sound like a point for redline though.
When using an oil that is made specifically for one specialty application, all bets are off. You can't transfer their performance onto other applications.
Fine, but then i don't think it's legitimate for you to quote racers using redline a justification for its use in a street car.
I guess i need to do an oil analysis.. I'm creeping nearer to 70,000 miles, and i do 10,000 miles per change, roughly--previously castrol, now mobil-1. Unfortunately, it seems that the switch picked up a lot of deposit, due to the extra detergency.
I should be clear that a lot of little things (along with WTD's test results ... which sowed a low TBN in addition to a lot of metal) have gone into my opinion of Mobil 1 and that I don't actually condemn it, I don't think as highly of it as I did a year or more ago.
As for racing, that is really something that an Indy car used off-the-shelf oil in their (generous) sump. Does anyone know if methanol burns hotter or cooler than high-octane gasoline? Those cars were turbos then, I'm pretty sure. Of course, the SG class had a lot of EP wear additives in them. Most racing/high-performance oils don't pass anything past SH because of their healthy package. Still, that's something.
The only caveat about Red Line I have is the seals. I'll be watching carefully for any leaks but so far, after 9 months, no leaking at all. I would assume that it would take a while for polyol to over-swell the seals if it was going to happen at all. We'll see ...
About the piston slap, I run into all sorts of kids that got their cars used and I doubt the original owners took meticulous car of their engine the way I do mine and some are downright abusive. I would have liked to see my piston slap developed later in the car's life, by comparison. Preventing this sort of thing was the reason I was using synthetics in the first place. We'll never know if Red Line would have prevented it or not.
The reason I cite amateur racing is because you're 99% sure they aren't getting some doctored formula that has nothing to do with a company's shelf oils. Red Line sells a straight weight 70 oil for top fuel cars, for example, and I can't imagine anybody in that competition be using 10W30 in their rig, regardless of brand. They ALL must be using some special weight and formula. Some other motorsports are almost sure to be using a custom cocktail. Formula One is probably the worst offender in this regard ... but for 18,000 rpm engines, I would expect nothing less.
dhanley, please let us know what your oil analyis looks like in the appropriate thread.
I have used the 10W30 since 1992 in over 7 cars. Oldest on it has 141,000 changed every 7,500 and the SDF exclusively. Analysis has been fine. I swear by it but I also like the Mobil 1 and Oure One filters and if needed I would switch to Mobil 1 oil and filters..
That "7,500" miles interval of yours is very short compared to what Amsoil recommeds for replacing its oil (25,000 miles) and filter (12,500 miles or 6 month whichever comes first). Any particular reason why? Also, are you using stock air filter? Thanks.
Well, you are correct. On my Camry I think I could go 10,000-12,000 but I did go 15,000 once and I did not like the results of the oil analysis. Overall on all of my cars 12,000 miles is about it then the silicon tends to build up to the point the lab flags it as excessive. So on my 5 cars it depends on type of driving. Buick I go 12,000 miles, filter at 6000, 10W30, lots of highway Mercury 4 cyl Mystique once a year filter at 6 months (8-10,000/year) 0W30,car at college with daughter Isuzu Rodeo, 7,500 miles, too many short trips 10w30 Mitsubishi 3000GT twin turbo, 5000 miles which is about once a year. In fact, the year is up next month and still the same oil and filter. 10W30. Previous owner went 1 1/2 years with Mobil 1, my oil analysis on the Mobil 1 was fine when I replaced it with the Amsoil. All get oil analysis once a year and so far fine. Oldest on Amsoil is the Camry switched at 1000 miles now 141,000
As to the 25,000 miles intervals, remember, that is one year or 25,000 which ever comes first and a filter must be changed at 12,500 or 6 months. Few people put on 25,000 a year so 99.9% of drivers would change the oil at 12,000-15,000 if they did it once a year.
I use OEM air fitlers. Tried them all and oil analysis (silicon build up) actually less with the OEM fitler then the foam or other aftermarket brands. Oil filters, there is a diff, Amsoil, Mobil 1 or Pure One. I use Amsoil on 4 cars, Pure One on the Mercury.
Question on gear lubricant... what does gl-3/gl-4/gl-5 mean? I have some coastal gear oil out in the garage, it is 80w-90 and says it meets API service gl-1,gl-2 and gl-3....I thought that was NOT the same as motor oil...sl is upgrade for sj, sj is upgrade for sh and so on... My (NISSAN truck) transmission and transfer case calls for gl-4, the differentials call for gl-5... anybody? Rando
The higher the number( GL-6 being the highest) the more load that it can carry. There is more EP (extreme pressure) additive in the higher numbers. You must!!! use the GL-4 for the trans/transfer case if thats what it calls for. do not use the GL-5 it will damage the synchronizers. In addition use the correct viscosity ie 75W-90 (example).
Sounds like I should not use that oil for the transmission/transfer case..how could it say it meets gl-3/4 and 5??? sounds like it can only meet one or the other... thanks Rando
with regard to piston slap noise disappearing is very interesting I was on the bobistheoilguy site and it seems that he has a connection with one of the analysis labs, that individual is doing a lot of testing on schaeffers oil witch also contains moly.
They were testing a 1999 honda crv with piston slap, that vehicle is not that old and the mileage I don't think was very high, well they decided to test a schaeffers 15w-40 oil and the pumpability was great additionally the piston slap went away immediately.
Based upon these two incidents your's and the honda crv I'm starting to conclude that this component of moly has some inherent benefits within the oil. (an aside the schaeffers oil is a parasynthetic)
"Just a update on the 7000 blend series of tests. 1999 Honda CRV 2.0 L 4cyl. "piston slap" knock on start with 30 wt oils.Chronic problem very similar to GM issues although this goes away after warm up and oil flow. Decided to test 15w-40 7000 blend for cold wx pumpability and to see about eliminating the wrist pin play on start up. At 18 F on a very tight tolerance engine with a realtively thick oil the slap has been elimminated with NO degradation in oil flow or pressure. Remember fellow oil geeks this engine was designed for a thinner vis oil. I believe the combo of MoS2 and blended base oils is working well.Analysis results will be released to bob in the next few months. Other oils tested in this engine have been Conoco,Valvoline blend,Texaco syn,Royal Purple, etc"
Thanks for your detailed answer - helped me greatly. As much as I would like to use Amsoil oil and filter in my car, I simply can't find someone willing to ship them to Korea. So I looked at Mobile One Korea, but for some strange reasons, they only carry 5W-50 Synthetic oil. I emailed them to ask why they don't sell 10W-30 in Korea, to which they replied some BS answer not worth posting here.
So this is my next alternative. Go with 10W-30 Pennzoil® Synthetic Motor Oil with Pennzane® and use Moble One oil filter (sold here for $11.34 apiece; how much it it in the States?). I also ordered a K&N airfilter (stock replacement, oil based) to minimize the oil contamination. I plan to change both oil and filter ONLY once per year (drives less than 8k miles per year) taking a clue from your service interval for your 3000GT. Do you think this is a good idea? Or should I pay extra to get 5W-50 from Mobile One (Is pennzoil good?) I really want to avoid using 5W-50 oil for a car that would never be raced. Thanks.
There was a reference in that paper about "These designations also recognize the possibility that lubricants may be developed for more than one service classification and may be so designated." Maybe I will call the company and check, maybe it can be used for all the grades (3/4/5)...says so on the bottle anyway..says it can be used for axles and transmissions. (I typed that previous note wrong, the bottle says it meets api service grade gl-3,4 and 5, not 1,2 and 3) I have another brand jug of gl-5 out there that does NOT mention any other uses Thanks Alcan and ADC100 see y'all Rando
I'm not an expert here, but again I would be very careful to make sure. The 3/4/5 probably meets all three classifications because it has enough EP for GL-5- so naturally it meets 3/4. For instance Mobil 1 is GL-5 but they don't recommend it for GL-4. The extra additives in GL-5 play hell on synchronizers in transmissions. Again-I'm not the expert. GM's "Synchromesh" oil is very good (I understand), but its very pricy-$10/quart. After putting the Mobil 1 - GL-5 in my sons transmission 2 quarts@ $8/qu. I drained it out and put 2 quarts of the GM sync. in. Bad day at the ranch.
Bottom line if they recommend GL-4 I wouldn't use the GL 3/4/5. But check.
I am going to ask them just what you are talking about,,,maybe the EP additive they use is NOT detrimental to the syncros, but that is what I am going to ask, from reading up on it, it sounds like some/not all ep additives are the sulphur componants that generate the acid that eats up soft metals, i'll ask about it Back to ya later. Rando
I have a similar situation, GL-4 in tranny and differential and GL-5 in rear end for AWD car. As noted, umnliek oils and higher number does not mean that they are backward compatible. IF it recommends a GL-4 use only that. For gear oil I found that the Redline MT-90 or MTL GL-4 is fantastic stuff, made the cold shifting tolerable for my 6 spd.
I sent an email to the Coastal folks and already got a response, I will post it below. I called everyone around here to see if I could even buy any GL-4 and got the same answer from everyone except Jiffy-Lube. Jiffy-Lube still provides gl-4 when specified, but no-one else does, I can't even buy it at the parts houses. Every-one said I can safely use the GL-3/4/5 that I have available here already. here's the email back from Coastal. Thanks every-body, looks like technology has made life simpler for us!! Here's my request > Comments: I have a 1989 Nissan truck with a manual transmission that calls > for gl-4 lubricant. I have Coastal gear lubricant that states that it meets > api specification gl-3/4 AND 5. I thought if it met gl-5, it could not meet > gl-4 in regards to protecting certain metals in a transmission. Can you > explain? I have read that the EP compounds in GL-5 will react negatively > with syncro ring material in a manual transmission. Heres the answer:
Dear Randy:
Thank you for your inquiry regarding our Coastal gear oils. It used to be true that the EP additives in a GL-5 lubricant would attack "yellow" metals such as bronze. However, additive technology has changed a lot during the last few years. The EP additive used in Coastal gear oils utilizes a much less "active" sulfur-phosphorus additive package that will not harm yellow metals. This product will work fine in your application. Feel free to contact me if you have additional question.
One thing about Coastal. If you notice their container of "Synthetic Blend". The way they labeled this container, it led you to believe that it was true synthetic. For that reason I won't buy their products. As Armtron indicated RedLine Gear Lub(MT-90) has a fantastic reputation. Why not consider using it in the Tranny.
Last year I put 5W-50 syn in my Subaru. It has 125K, so valve tolerances should not be clogged by the heavier oil. It runs great, but gas mileage took a significant hit. On a trip to Yellowstone it only got 28 MPG where the year before on a lighter oil it got 33 MPG. Personally, now use 3 quarts of 5W-30, and 1 quart of 5W-50 for the extra protection.
I would not put 5W-50 in a newer car, especially one that recommends 5W-20. You could blow the engine.
I haven't tried the Penzoil synthetic, but frankly the stats on this look extremely good. It is hydrocracked, so I wouldn't go beyond 7,000 Miles myself. Check out the spec sheets on www.pzlqs.com. It's cold flow characteristics are just as good as Mobile 1. Hydrocracks are very good in preventing sludge formation, and overall this should be an excellent oil as long as extended drains are avoided.
Back in my younger days.... My truck has 181k miles on it and it is my #3 vehicle...I just use it for round town stuff and when one of the other 2 is tied up.. I have 2 gallons of the Coastal gear lube out in the garage left over from when I last refilled all the differentials that needed to be refilled-all 3 are 4x4. I basically am just using the oil that I have available, the transmission/transfer case is oily also, doesn't leave drips but I just cleaned them off so I can see how fast it gets oily again,at the moment I am just topping off and am going to evaluate if I need any repair before I drain and refill. If I was needing to buy some outright I may buy something more like what you are recommending, but at this point it would be a waste of money until I see if any work needs to done, I still have enough onhand for another refill anyway. Thanks for the recommendation though, this old workhorse has done pretty good so far on regular grass though if you know what I mean see ya Rando
gsleve, thanks for the info. I had attributed the quietness of my engine to either the moly or the thicker-than-PAO polyol ester base stock. Those are the only known differences between Red Line and the synthetics I used to use. From what you've found, it looks like it's the moly that's making the difference.
I'll have to check Bob's site again for more info.
As for Pennzoil's synthetic, it's UHVI hydrocracked crude oil so while good, its base oil could be of a better stock. But once again, we get to the additive package ...
... in this case, Pennzane. I had heard this stuff was developed for NASA ... but cost $400 per quart. So, how much of this "miracle molecule" could actually be in a quart of motor oil that retails for $4?
Perhaps that $400 figure was a typical government project cost overrun ... like the $100 hammer or $600 toilet seat and perhaps the cost has come down for the industrial and consumer markets?
If Pennzoil used a PAO stock and I wasn't already using a different brand and type of oil, I might see if I could find an MSDS on-line somewhere. That might show the amount of "Pennzane" in each quart.
I hear 'ya, I'd probably do the same. Also I don't have any personal (or any other) evidence that Coastal is inferior. I have heard many people indicate that RedLine gave superior results. And some of them were people I have come to take what they say seriously. As far as the GM Synchromesh- it is partially synthetic and must do a good job. I changed my son's manual trans oil at 65K and the stuff looked brand new and there was zero metal on the magnetic plug.
mrdetailer: As far as the Pennzoil goes-I also agree with you with respect to the sludge issue. As far as selecting it over Mobil-I would think it is very unlikely that a S-HDP (severely hydroprocessed) oil such as Pennzoil would be able to match the overall protection of a quality PAO/Ester. Especially since it's much cheaper to make and they charge the same price. The tests I've read when Mobil tested their oils against these types(Don't know whose): One S-HDP did pretty well, but it did sludge. The other was way out in left field. It totally and uterly failed double length API Sequence VE Tests(high speed/high temp test) Although this was in '95.
Comments
If you drive your car hard, then I'd suggest Red Line. If you just tool around town, I'd go with a mass-market synthetic and change it at 4-5,000 miles.
Either way, I'd get a couple samples tested to verify the soundness of your choice.
--- Bror Jace
Broe</>
I have no doubt that RedLine is a higher performing Lub. I would worry about the ability of RedLine to hold up over the long haul. Especially because Esters are less stable in water and also there is the seal issue. There really is no objective information, other than RedLines claims that it is a suitable long term lub(IMHO). I'd be interested in seeing something. Are you aware of anything.
As for long-term effects on seals, I don't know of a single problem or complaint about leaking or failure. I'll be running my silly little Civic for at least another year or so and any leaking which develops will cause me to make everyone I know aware of the problem. That's the best I can do. My analysis shows that my oil had a lot of it's original base number left and had no moisture problem. So, with my somewhat extended intervals, I have no concerns. Red Line says their oils are good for up to 10-18,000 miles. Now, I have no intention of letting mine go that far ... but my testing makes me believe their numbers would hold true for a low-load, less RPM-intensive application.
If someone who's been doing oil analysis a while can show/tell me about problems that don't show up in analysis, please do so. I'm something of a neophyte at that stuff.
I was watching more SCCA racing Sunday and some other things jumped out at me. First of all, I don't think UHVI mineral stocks existed in 1995 ... at least they weren't available commercially as "synthetic". I'm pretty sure Castrol broke new ground early in 1998 when they made their infamous switcharoo.
I also have to take back what I said about Mobil's racing program. Who knows what these guys have going on? But I gather it isn't easy to get special treatment from them. I got into an argument (who, me?) with a Mobil employee on another board who worked in one of their Texas plants ... that made or distributed Mobil 1. He was complaining because I was talking about Mobil 1 being questionable (after seeing the results from wtd's infamous analysis) and he ripped into me for "scaring" people away from Mobil 1 and (presumably) to Red Line. He had a number of expensive street toys and he as well raced so I imagine he was high up enough on the corporate ladder to be familiar with their racing program. In all of his racing cars he admitted to using Red Line Oil. >;^)
Perhaps, if Mobil has a racing program offering custom blended lubes to race teams, it's at such a high level that only a small, elite group (Formula 1, CART, some others?) get the benefit of their resources and expertise. If Mobil wants to be this way, they DESERVE to have a #2 reputation (or #3, #4, etc ...) among serious performance guys.
I also like the way Mobil says that Red Line should fork over the big bucks in order to test their formulas. Well, that's easy for a massive, multi-national corporation to say! They have money to burn on things like testing!
Actually, Red Line does a really poor job marketing their stuff. The only publication they advertise in is Grassroots Motorsports (that I've seen) and it's a small B&W ad. They only thing that keeps them afloat is their reputation among racers and serious gearheads. If a bunch of these guys drop out of the car scene all at once without passing on their knowledge to newcomers, Red Line would be in financial trouble in a hurry.
--- Bror Jace
Goodbye, Mobil 1. Farewell, Amsoill! Adios, Redline! I'm putting http://www.bobistheoilguy.com in my crankcase and leave it at that.
Their testimonials are mostly racing, not the average Joe going 200,000 miles over 10 years.
Do I use their products,. Well, I use their gear oil in my twin turbo 6 spd becuase it truly makes a difference in the way it shifts. The oil, no, I use Amsoil 10W30 with an Amsoil filter because I don't race the car and long term wear is more important to me. Plus, I have used Amsoil for the past 10 years in over 7 different cars without issue so far. And for me I can get it for $4.35/quart.
Mobil 1 is a great oil and they certainly have proven that for the average driver it does work! Not sure that RedLine has done this as yet!
And as Bob has said, RedLine would not get API certified due to the excessive amount of moly used as an additive. Amsoil is not either due to the excessive amount of zinc used to reduce wear. So, guess it is whatever floats your boat!
I think that was a saying leftover from Jaguar's glory days in the 50s and 60s.
Redline actually has two sets of formulas, one for the street, another for the track. Supposedly, both are polyol ester based but the additive packages are substantially different. The racing formulas tend to be more lubricant-intensive and light on detergents and other additives that preserve it over time ... like additives which fight corrosion and fuel-dilution. As I pointed out, I left my oil in for 7,200 miles over 5 months and had no evidence of corrosion. My iron and aluminum levels were very low compared to the averages Blackstone provided me for comparison.
Seeing that cars in general (and the cars I like more specifically) are more and more like racing machines every year. They run hotter and get their power is achieved higher-up in the rev range than ever before. Both these conditions take their toll on motor oil. I also talk to kids that drag race ... or parking lot race (SCCA Solo). Your basic dino oils aren't designed to spend that much time near the engine's red line. It's better safe then sorry.
AS for Mobil 1, their additive package is now so weak, I don't trust this stuff for high-performance applications or extended drains. Sure they do more lab testing ... but only because they are bigger and can afford the tests. Racers that pay for and rebuild their own motors (seeing the results) prefer the protection that Red Line gives.
armtdm is right about the additives screwing up API certification. Amsoil uses lots and lots of zinc and phosphorous while Red Line uses those (in smaller amounts) but adds molybdenum as well. The API certifications reflect the auto industry pressuring the lubricant industry to cut back on these extremely useful compounds in the name of preserving emissions equipment ... especially catalytic converters.
adc100< did you notice that Mobil 1 put Patrick Bedard's Castrol bashing article on their site? >;^D
--- Bror Jace
From memory I think API cert. is called for in my 97 Cavalier, but Hyundai allows 10W40 as an option to their preferred 10W30, therefore API cert. isn't a warranty requirement there.
I've seen you say this a couple of times, but i'd like to know exactly what your basis is for this opinion. What test do you know of that really shows the additive package is weak?
Sure they do more lab testing ... but only because they are bigger and can afford the tests.
Um, maybe, maybe not. There's cheap tests redline could do, and being able to afford tests doesn't automatically mean you'll do well.
I also don't really think racers using redline means very much. Redline's gone after that market very heavily--iv'e gotten their slick little racer ads.
Not saying that redline is "bad" by any means, but i don't really see your foundation in your opinions of it's superiority.
dave
I was dismayed to see the growing anti-Mobil 1 sentiment. I am using this in both of our family vehicles and currently am sitting on about 20 quarts of 5W30 bought 6-9 months ago.
What's the current consensus-- is Mobil 1 still a "100% synthetic" oil? What about 6 months from now? A year? Two years?
It seems that Mobil 1 may be going downhill-- the very same hill that they scolded Castrol for riding with its Syntec. The news of SL certification coming in April was encouraging but I don't know if this has much to do with Mobil 1 staying 100% synthetic?
Now that I see some folks such as brorjace hesitating to recommend extended drains with Mobil 1, I'm wondering whether I should change my strategy. Currently I'm running 5000-6000 miles between oil changes, with an extra filter change halfway on one vehicle (98 Isuzu Trooper) and not on the other (95 Ford Contour SE).
I won't do oil analysis - sorry, just not into it that much and wife would think I'm totally nuts.
I don't mind changing petrol-based oil every 3000-4000 miles, which is cheaper than Mobil 1 with 5000-6000 mile change intervals. I don't really consider Amsoil or Redline a worthy alternative for me-- per-quart cost too high for me to justify, not readily available at my corner store, and our vehicles aren't really run that hard anyway.
There seem to be fewer and fewer "true" synthetic oils. I thought I was playing it safe with Mobil 1, though I was always somewhat skeptical of how highly thought of it and other PAO oils were in comparison to the "fake" synthetics such as Syntec and Pennzoil.
Suggestions and thoughts are appreciated.
People such as Tom, adc100, armtdm, brorjace, mrdetailer, tboner, and others make this board a joy to read.
I don't always get into the technical details as much as some of you, but I look forward to your analysis, observations, anecdotes, conclusions, and recommendations.
Also, the moderators here and at the other Town Hall forums I follow and participate in are top-notch, in my opinion.
I don't know if Mobil has altered its' manufactiring process for Mobil 1 but a few years ago I was at a meeting of Amsoil and asked the lead chemist what he thought of Mobil 1 and (biased of course) said that if he could not get his product he would definitely use Mobil 1, a fine oil he said.
People such as Tom, adc100, armtdm, brorjace, mrdetailer, tboner, and others make this board a joy to read.
Perhaps in 90 days, my SVT Contour will have a significant horsepower increase. It is amazing how much energy you can generate with a bit of exhaust gas 8^)
Stay tuned, I'm sure there will be an oil related component to my horsepower quest.
TB
The only issue I have heard is the lower level of the zinc in their anti-wear system. Mobil addressed this issue in Technical Paper 951026, published in 1995 as they were developing the Tri-Syn formula. I am not a chemist but they are using an "all secondary" zinc anti-wear system as opposed to the "mixed primary and secondary alcohol based zinc dithiophosphate (ZDTP" It is this new system (again developed in 1994-not last year) that gave execllent antiwear (better than ZDTP) in passing the double, tripple, and quadruple API Sequence IIIE tests. In 1998 after some more improvement(Technical Paper 981444) their oils improved significantly with regards to wear. BTW the 200K extended drain tests were being performed during this period with "almost no wear". I just don't see the degredation that has been mentioned. I'd like proof. Now they tested their oils agains other brands-so you can feel confident they are better than some out there-which ones? who knows. Maybe RedLine and or Amsoil-maybe not.
With regards to RedLine. I considered trying it but since then I got rid of the vehicle I was planning to test it in. And I really don't have the confidence to use it in my new vehicle for extended drain intervals. I'm mainly concerned with seal leakage. There is no objective proof that it can go the distance in over the road driving (Unlike Mobil/Amsoil)
I'd say if you are uncomfortable-go to Amsoil vs RedLine. Again-only an opinion. I could be convinced I'm wrong, but it would take proof.
Later,
Al
As for lab testing, you can do a lot of goofy things with this. There are many variables and tests you can conduct which have a varying correlation to real world conditions. The companies with the money can pick and choose what they do
Red Line has gone after (the racer) market very heavily - I've gotten their slick little racer ads.
Um, can you give me an example of this 'slick' Red Line advertising? Because aside from one little ad I saw in Grassroots Motorsports, I don't think I've seen a single ad from them. My background is in marketing and I have to say that Red Line is absolutely pathetic in that regard. In the last couple of years I have been LOOKING for oil ads in all sorts of magazines and usually I just see ads from the major players ... and occasioanlly Amsoil.
Redline and Motul use polyol stocks which has been used by pro racers for decades. If you want to use polyol, you are limited to a few brands in this country and Red Line is the easiest/cheapest to get. Again, the guys that tear down their own engines swear but the stuff. I don't think it has anything to do with 'slick' advertising.
Mr. Detailer, We do not have emissions testing in this part of the state so I have no idea how may cat' is doing. But, my engine is still tight, didn't burn a drop of oil prior to the 100,000 mile mark so I can't believe too much oil made its way through the exhaust system. I think if you shop around, you can find cat converters for cheaper than that. Still even $350 at the 100,000 mile mark is cheaper than replacing your motor (or entire car) at the 125,000-150,000 mile mark.
BlueDevils, my jury is out on Mobil 1. I have no evidence that they are skimping on their base stocks, just the extreme pressure additives. Still, the pressure seems to be on these companies to follow Castrol's lead and dilute their PAO with UHVI hydrocracked crude. Perhaps Mobil is immune to this as they are the largest producer of PAOs in the world and might be able to get them and sell them cheaper.
If you use a mass-market synthetic oil that you currently believe is PAO, it's up to you to hound these people a couple times each year about their formula. And keep in mind, some companies will give out false information, knowingly or not, about their formula. I talked to someone who called Castrol's toll-free consumer line 1 year ago and they said that they used PAO in their Syntec, which they haven't done since 1997. Good luck!
--- Bror Jace
As for lab testing, you can do a lot of goofy things with this.
True, but the same would go for redline, then. They have done a few lab tests that could as easily be as deceptive as anyone else's.
Um, can you give me an example of this 'slick' Red Line advertising?
Sure. I have a little glossy brochure that redline passes out to racers. One thing that claim is greatly enhanced fuel mileage. You think manufacturers would put the stuff in their car for EPA testing.
Maybe you haven't seen redline going after racers, but *i* sure have.
Redline and Motul use polyol stocks which has been used by pro racers for decades. If you want to use polyol, you are limited to a few brands in this country and Red Line is the easiest/cheapest to get. Again, the guys that tear down their own engines swear but the stuff. I don't think it has anything to do with 'slick' advertising.
Again, i don't see how this is a mark against mobil1 and a good thing for redline. Mobil1 is used by most f1 teams, indycr, etc. I'd think more highly of an oil if it's being used i a million dollar 20,000RPM ferarri engine as opposed to a blown corolla or something.
Again, i really don't see *any* basis for trusting redline and not mobil1.
dave
anti-wear/zinc:
Mobil is using an "all secondary" zinc anti-wear system as opposed to the "mixed primary and secondary alcohol based zinc dithiophosphate (ZDTP)" This new system gave execllent antiwear (better than ZDTP) in passing the double, tripple, and quadruple API Sequence IIIE tests. In 1998 after some more improvement(Technical Paper 981444) their oils improved significantly with regards to wear.
you said: Mobil 1 currently has only 0.75%(ZDTP) and for this reason, I don't recommend it for extended drains after seeing a few tests where it appeared marginal.
ZDTP doesn't exsist and Zinc content may very well be less.
Mobil has performed extended drain tests(with this "low" ZDTP with "almost no wear" after 200K. Isn't that good enough??
Now about RedLine: Where's the credible documentation that their stuff can go extended intervals? (like Mobil and Amsoil)
Racing: Mobil's oils in an '91, '92, '94 Indy car indicated 43, 46,28 ppm Fe. The Mobil 1 winner of the '93 Indy had the engine torn down and all critical engine parts were in outstanding condition. We're talking 13,000 rpm here. Wear package seemed to do O/K. here also.
Later,
Al
Please tell me pros and cons of this product as well as on its oil filter known as "Super Duty Oil Filter (SDF)". Thanks in advance.
For the record, I don't do extended oil change intervals beyond 8,000 miles. If I WERE, I'd use something with a healthy additive package ... like bobistheoilguy recommended.
Other evidence against Mobil 1 are oil sample test results and right here on this site there is wtd's poor test results after only 5,000 miles on Mobil 1. I've seen others as well that were nothing to crow about.
I think I have that Red Line brochure you speak of, but I had to BUY some of their oil in order to get it. A glossy brochure hardly makes for 'slick' marketing. When I see them running full color, full page ads in 1/2 of the car magazines out there, that will be a different story.
I used synthetic oil (almost always Mobil 1) in my Civic its entire life and at 80,000 miles it developed the 'piston-slap' sound which indicates fairly normal wear of the piston skirts. Since I never went over 6,5000 miles between oil & filter changes, why didn't Mobil 1 prevent (or at least postpone) this?
The only thing that mutes my piston slap noise is Redline (even their 5W30).
As for racing, I'd be blown away to find out that the really big-buck, cutting edge racing teams used something other than a specially-tailored, custom cocktail for engine oil. F-1 example, uses a series of different fuels, etc ... and probably have different ones for racing, qualifying, different temperatures, etc ... They've been like this for over a decade. Agip blends things especially for Ferrari, for example.
When using an oil that is made specifically for one specialty application, all bets are off. You can't transfer their performance onto other applications.
adc100, where did you get the info on zinc additives?
--- Bror Jace
To me your evidence is not that strong with regards to Mobil 1. But I can understand how you feel with you piston slap. Many vehicles exhibit this slap as an almost normal part of their heritage. GM's 3.1's are notorious for this. I had one which slapped from the day I got it (program car). 65K later it was still slapping. Perhaps I should have used RedLine!! It would appear that RedLine may have better lubricating qualities which take care of that issue. But still-I think you have to look at how does the engine hold up after 200K. And the "4-ball" ASTM type tests (as opposed to API tests) don't make it here (for me).
That '93 Indy Winner had the API/SG certified 15W-50 Mobil 1- not a designer oil. (that's in the referenced paper above)
Later,
Al
You do make a good point about your civic, and i'm not sure what to say about that. I don't think redline quieting the slap proves it would have prevented a wear problem, but it does sound like a point for redline though.
When using an oil that is made specifically for one specialty application, all bets are off. You can't transfer their performance onto other applications.
Fine, but then i don't think it's legitimate for you to quote racers using redline a justification for its use in a street car.
I guess i need to do an oil analysis.. I'm creeping nearer to 70,000 miles, and i do 10,000 miles per change, roughly--previously castrol, now mobil-1. Unfortunately, it seems that the switch picked up a lot of deposit, due to the extra detergency.
dave
As for racing, that is really something that an Indy car used off-the-shelf oil in their (generous) sump. Does anyone know if methanol burns hotter or cooler than high-octane gasoline? Those cars were turbos then, I'm pretty sure. Of course, the SG class had a lot of EP wear additives in them. Most racing/high-performance oils don't pass anything past SH because of their healthy package. Still, that's something.
The only caveat about Red Line I have is the seals. I'll be watching carefully for any leaks but so far, after 9 months, no leaking at all. I would assume that it would take a while for polyol to over-swell the seals if it was going to happen at all. We'll see ...
About the piston slap, I run into all sorts of kids that got their cars used and I doubt the original owners took meticulous car of their engine the way I do mine and some are downright abusive. I would have liked to see my piston slap developed later in the car's life, by comparison. Preventing this sort of thing was the reason I was using synthetics in the first place. We'll never know if Red Line would have prevented it or not.
The reason I cite amateur racing is because you're 99% sure they aren't getting some doctored formula that has nothing to do with a company's shelf oils. Red Line sells a straight weight 70 oil for top fuel cars, for example, and I can't imagine anybody in that competition be using 10W30 in their rig, regardless of brand. They ALL must be using some special weight and formula. Some other motorsports are almost sure to be using a custom cocktail. Formula One is probably the worst offender in this regard ... but for 18,000 rpm engines, I would expect nothing less.
dhanley, please let us know what your oil analyis looks like in the appropriate thread.
--- Bror Jace
Buick I go 12,000 miles, filter at 6000, 10W30, lots of highway
Mercury 4 cyl Mystique once a year filter at 6 months (8-10,000/year) 0W30,car at college with daughter
Isuzu Rodeo, 7,500 miles, too many short trips 10w30
Mitsubishi 3000GT twin turbo, 5000 miles which is about once a year. In fact, the year is up next month and still the same oil and filter. 10W30. Previous owner went 1 1/2 years with Mobil 1, my oil analysis on the Mobil 1 was fine when I replaced it with the Amsoil.
All get oil analysis once a year and so far fine. Oldest on Amsoil is the Camry switched at 1000 miles now 141,000
As to the 25,000 miles intervals, remember, that is one year or 25,000 which ever comes first and a filter must be changed at 12,500 or 6 months. Few people put on 25,000 a year so 99.9% of drivers would change the oil at 12,000-15,000 if they did it once a year.
I use OEM air fitlers. Tried them all and oil analysis (silicon build up) actually less with the OEM fitler then the foam or other aftermarket brands. Oil filters, there is a diff, Amsoil, Mobil 1 or Pure One. I use Amsoil on 4 cars, Pure One on the Mercury.
what does gl-3/gl-4/gl-5 mean?
I have some coastal gear oil out in the garage, it is 80w-90 and says it meets API service gl-1,gl-2 and gl-3....I thought that was NOT the same as motor oil...sl is upgrade for sj, sj is upgrade for sh and so on...
My (NISSAN truck) transmission and transfer case calls for gl-4, the differentials call for gl-5...
anybody?
Rando
Additional information:
http://www.torcoracingoils.com/tech_info/tech/Gear%20Lubrication%20101%20ET.PDF
thanks
Rando
http://api-ep.api.org/filelibrary/1560.pdf
They were testing a 1999 honda crv with piston slap, that vehicle is not that old and the mileage I don't think was very high, well they decided to test a schaeffers 15w-40 oil and the pumpability was great additionally the piston slap went away immediately.
Based upon these two incidents your's and the honda crv I'm starting to conclude that this component of moly has some inherent benefits within the oil. (an aside the schaeffers oil is a parasynthetic)
"Just a update on the 7000 blend series of tests. 1999 Honda CRV 2.0 L 4cyl. "piston slap" knock on start with 30 wt oils.Chronic problem very similar to GM issues although this goes away after warm up and oil flow. Decided to test 15w-40 7000 blend for cold wx pumpability and to see about eliminating the wrist pin play on start up. At 18 F on a very tight tolerance engine with a realtively thick oil the slap has been elimminated with NO degradation in oil flow or pressure. Remember fellow oil geeks this engine was designed for a thinner vis oil. I believe the combo of MoS2 and blended base oils is working well.Analysis results will be released to bob in the next few months. Other oils tested in this engine have been Conoco,Valvoline blend,Texaco syn,Royal Purple, etc"
So this is my next alternative. Go with 10W-30 Pennzoil® Synthetic Motor Oil with Pennzane® and use Moble One oil filter (sold here for $11.34 apiece; how much it it in the States?). I also ordered a K&N airfilter (stock replacement, oil based) to minimize the oil contamination. I plan to change both oil and filter ONLY once per year (drives less than 8k miles per year) taking a clue from your service interval for your 3000GT. Do you think this is a good idea? Or should I pay extra to get 5W-50 from Mobile One (Is pennzoil good?) I really want to avoid using 5W-50 oil for a car that would never be raced. Thanks.
Maybe I will call the company and check, maybe it can be used for all the grades (3/4/5)...says so on the bottle anyway..says it can be used for axles and transmissions. (I typed that previous note wrong, the bottle says it meets api service grade gl-3,4 and 5, not 1,2 and 3)
I have another brand jug of gl-5 out there that does NOT mention any other uses
Thanks Alcan and ADC100
see y'all
Rando
Bottom line if they recommend GL-4 I wouldn't use the GL 3/4/5. But check.
Back to ya later.
Rando
I called everyone around here to see if I could even buy any GL-4 and got the same answer from everyone except Jiffy-Lube.
Jiffy-Lube still provides gl-4 when specified, but no-one else does, I can't even buy it at the parts houses. Every-one said I can safely use the GL-3/4/5 that I have available here already.
here's the email back from Coastal.
Thanks every-body, looks like technology has made life simpler for us!!
Here's my request
> Comments: I have a 1989 Nissan truck with a manual transmission that calls
> for gl-4 lubricant. I have Coastal gear lubricant that states that it meets
> api specification gl-3/4 AND 5. I thought if it met gl-5, it could not meet
> gl-4 in regards to protecting certain metals in a transmission. Can you
> explain? I have read that the EP compounds in GL-5 will react negatively
> with syncro ring material in a manual transmission.
Heres the answer:
Dear Randy:
Thank you for your inquiry regarding our Coastal gear oils. It used to be
true that the EP additives in a GL-5 lubricant would attack "yellow" metals
such as bronze. However, additive technology has changed a lot during the
last few years. The EP additive used in Coastal gear oils utilizes a much
less "active" sulfur-phosphorus additive package that will not harm yellow
metals. This product will work fine in your application. Feel free to
contact me if you have additional question.
Sincerely,
http://www.manhonda.com/store/
I would not put 5W-50 in a newer car, especially one that recommends 5W-20. You could blow the engine.
I haven't tried the Penzoil synthetic, but frankly the stats on this look extremely good. It is hydrocracked, so I wouldn't go beyond 7,000 Miles myself. Check out the spec sheets on www.pzlqs.com. It's cold flow characteristics are just as good as Mobile 1. Hydrocracks are very good in preventing sludge formation, and overall this should be an excellent oil as long as extended drains are avoided.
My truck has 181k miles on it and it is my #3 vehicle...I just use it for round town stuff and when one of the other 2 is tied up..
I have 2 gallons of the Coastal gear lube out in the garage left over from when I last refilled all the differentials that needed to be refilled-all 3 are 4x4.
I basically am just using the oil that I have available, the transmission/transfer case is oily also, doesn't leave drips but I just cleaned them off so I can see how fast it gets oily again,at the moment I am just topping off and am going to evaluate if I need any repair before I drain and refill.
If I was needing to buy some outright I may buy something more like what you are recommending, but at this point it would be a waste of money until I see if any work needs to done, I still have enough onhand for another refill anyway.
Thanks for the recommendation though, this old workhorse has done pretty good so far on regular grass though if you know what I mean
see ya
Rando
I'll have to check Bob's site again for more info.
As for Pennzoil's synthetic, it's UHVI hydrocracked crude oil so while good, its base oil could be of a better stock. But once again, we get to the additive package ...
... in this case, Pennzane. I had heard this stuff was developed for NASA ... but cost $400 per quart. So, how much of this "miracle molecule" could actually be in a quart of motor oil that retails for $4?
Perhaps that $400 figure was a typical government project cost overrun ... like the $100 hammer or $600 toilet seat and perhaps the cost has come down for the industrial and consumer markets?
If Pennzoil used a PAO stock and I wasn't already using a different brand and type of oil, I might see if I could find an MSDS on-line somewhere. That might show the amount of "Pennzane" in each quart.
--- Bror Jace
mrdetailer: As far as the Pennzoil goes-I also agree with you with respect to the sludge issue. As far as selecting it over Mobil-I would think it is very unlikely that a S-HDP (severely hydroprocessed) oil such as Pennzoil would be able to match the overall protection of a quality PAO/Ester. Especially since it's much cheaper to make and they charge the same price. The tests I've read when Mobil tested their oils against these types(Don't know whose): One S-HDP did pretty well, but it did sludge. The other was way out in left field. It totally and uterly failed double length API Sequence VE Tests(high speed/high temp test) Although this was in '95.
Later