Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
The difference is the base stock, 5w30 starts with a 5 weight stock, 10w30 starts with a 10 weight stock. Then additives (like plasticizers) are added to give it a performance like a 30 weight oil when hot.
The RX300 with the Amsoil, well technically that owner can try to sue Amsoil, but I doubt it would be sucessful. I have to wonder how often that person changed the filter, and how often did that owner did an oil analysis.
bob
The Information quoted on the Internet is not current. Just last week I was looking at Wallmarts oil and both the Mobile Drive Clean, and the Drive Clean Blend were listed as meeting the SL specification. I'll believe the bottle over the Internet.
AMSOIL in an engine under warranty:
While it may be a superior oil, I wouldn't put anything except for API certified oils since that's what the manufacturer recommends. Put it in after the warranty period runs out. Use Quaker State, or Mobil1 synthetics. They are PAO based, and meet the SJ specification, and will soon meet the SL classification.
VW and 40 weight oil.
Europeans like to go longer between oil changes. They also need the heavier weight oil in order to meet a European anti-wear standard that is higher than our US standard. Don't drop the weight. Although, personally, I would stick to a normal US oil interval of 5--7.5 thousand miles. If VW recommends Castrol, then it should meet your engine's needs during the warranty period. After that I would change to Maxlife, which is also a hydrocracked oil. The manager of one of my local Checker Auto stores prefers Castrol, even over Redline and AMSOil for his stock car racer.
Below the donut, it states "Exceeds API Service SJ, SH/CF warranty requirements for gasoline and diesel engines." So, what about this oil is not API certified?
Best Regards,
Shipo
In all fairness after reading through some of the Toyota engine oil sludge threads, is that EVEN with documented proof of correct oil change interval compliance (less than 7500 miles), that there were significant numbers of warranty denial. What was even more disingenous was that a lot of warranty work was denied at the dealers', where these oil changes were done! So while you would think you would not get a fight with the dealers in compliance with the oil change intervals, in fact that is not necessarily the rule or the case!
In the past ten years I have had about 4 new cars switched to Amsoil at the first change and have never bothered with obeying the manual. Why, well, the manufacturer must prove that the cause of engine failure was the oil, not the failure to change it or use an API certified oil. If the battery died due to a bad alternator you cannot say the battery was the wrong size, or whatever. WHo cares, the fault was the alternator overcharging the batterry. Same with oil. If the oil was the cause that is fine but oil is never the cause of catastrophic engine failure. Failure to change it as it can be if left in too long but, under waranty, with oil changes it is extremely rare to see catastrophic failure. Usually engine component failure, not the oil. Amsoil will warranty the oil if used in a mechanically sound engine ( the RX 300 in question with sludge had a coolant leak that caused sludge by the way, not mechanically sound) and changed once a year or 25,000 miles and filter changed at 6 months or 12,500, Amsoil filter.
I have one other piece of paper though should a dealer ever suggest my oil is not API certified, I have oil analysis results to show the oil was okay for further use when drained so the oil did not fail (if this were the scenario) the engine did.
1. That conventional as well as synthetic oil are not the panacea for "poor engine design" Specifically, if areas of the engine get to be hot enough to "cook" oil it is just a matter of time before you get sludge.
2. When my trucks (TLC's straight 6's not mini vans) were new, I asked dealerships general service manager as well as the asst manager, if my 15k Mobil One interval would be an engine warranty issue. They said no problem and would even do the oil changes for me!
3. The reason why Toyota offers a 3 yr 36k engine warranty is that they know statisticaly they will get a very very low % fulfillment on the warranty. They just happened to let a "poor" design slip to the marketplace and understandably, do not wish to pay the price. As consumers, we want them to stand behind the product fully and also there is some expectation whether justified or not, for the Toyota brand name and specific "mini van model" to maintain its high aftermarket values.
Kevin Ferrick
API Engine Oil Licensing and Certification System (EOLCS)
American Petroleum Institute
1220 L Street, NW
Washington, DC 20005
tel: 1 202 682 8233
fax: 1 202 962 4739
e-mail: ferrick@api.org
I have a 1997 Subaru that has had nothing but Mobil1 all it's life w/ 5000 mi changes. It developed piston slap at about 75k. Needless to say, I'm pretty disappointed. I've switched it to 'classic' Amsoil, and am considering switching our 2002 scoobie to their XL series, at least until the powertrain warranty expires.
1. Why would a dealer want to void a warranty? When they do warranty repairs does it somehow come out of *their* pocket? I was thinking that it comes out of the car manufacturer's pocket.
2. How can an oil meet the API SJ standard but not be "officially" API certified? (Amsoil 0w-30 for example)
1. The answer is one of whose nickel. Dealers receive money, but less than retail for APPROVED factory warranty work. So obviously, if the dealer mistakenly does unapproved factory warranty work: they either: eat the mistake or more likely, try to get the consumer to foot the bill. As a result, it doesnt take the dealer too long to get factory approval BEFORE it does the factory warranty work/repair, or get you the consumer to APPROVE that it is on the consumers RETAIL nickel.
Normally, it is seamless to the consumer, but in the Toyota engine sludge case, it was a lot more murky.
2. The API issue again has the "whose nickel" component. To wear the API and other certification agencies seal of logo approval, not only do the manufacturers have to pay the API/agency for TESTING that they have done already, i.e. DULPLICATE AND EXPENSIVE testing and quality control by the API/agency, but in effect they have to pay an annuity (like the recording industry, for each time a song is played/used) for EVERY agreed upon quantity of product that bears the API/agency logo stamp. So by inference, is it clear how it works?
From their own testing, it meets the criteria for API SJ certification.
To be officially certified, they must possess a License to be certified. It is basically a process of paperwork, Amsoil sends in the paperwork, then the appropiate API person will eventually review the paperwork and determine whether is does meet the requirements, then the licensing part begins.
All viscosities of Mobil Drive Clean Oil also exceed API Service SL requirements, the highest performance rating now available.
It's just the Mobil 1 that hasn't gotten the SL rating yet.
0W vs 5W: I'm not an oil expert...but aren't the scales of values used to indicate viscosity more/less arbitrary? "Zero" weight does not mean "none." Aren't the gear oil viscosities actually just about the same as engine oils? Only their "weight scales'" arbitrary values are different.
RobistheLubeDude, I remember seeing those weight numbers explained but I've since forgotten. Yes, "zero" does not mean "no viscosity" ... and the more you think about it, the funnier the current number system seems.
Plus, with synthetics ability to flow over greater ranges, they can qualify for "multi-weights" all by themselves in a straight formulation without the stuff that traditionally makes a multi-viscosity oil, "multi-viscosity".
So, the number system seems more arbitrary the closer it is examined.
I had always known the first number to be the base oil (flow-rated at a certain temp?), then the second number the same measurement at a warmer temp, say the boiling point of water. The higher the number, the greater the amount of additives. Of course, it's been a while since I read an authoritative narrative on this ... and this is probably no longer the case with these highly modified base stocks, both mineral and synthetic based.
--- Bror Jace
Is it because dino oils with newly-added additives are now better than ever, rivaling synthetics that have gone down in quality ever since the whole Castrol case? I don't want to spend twice as much for synthetic unless it's giving me twice the protection as conventional dino oil.
2915 of 2923 API/Warranty by killakella123 Mar 11, 2002 (01:00 pm)
Ok two more questions have popped in my head from this:
1. Why would a dealer want to void a warranty? When they do warranty repairs does it somehow come out of *their* pocket? I was thinking that it comes out of the car manufacturer's pocket.
2. How can an oil meet the API SJ standard but not be "officially" API certified? (Amsoil 0w-30 for example)
2915 of 2923 API/Warranty by killakella123 Mar 11, 2002 (01:00 pm)
Ok two more questions have popped in my head from this:
1. Why would a dealer want to void a warranty? When they do warranty repairs does it somehow come out of *their* pocket? I was thinking that it comes out of the car manufacturer's pocket.
2. How can an oil meet the API SJ standard but not be "officially" API certified? (Amsoil 0w-30 for example)
I immediately noticed by the seat of the pants, that the shifting was subtly smoother, got into each gear easier, the drive train seemed to work faster and smoother and a gain of 1-2 mpg in the gas mileage was a nice surprise.
I already have synthetic Mobil One as engine oil and also have changed out a previous synthetic fluid with specified friction modifier to Mobil One 75w90 and the same specified friction modifier in the rear differential. While I only have about 1000 miles on this combination, I have to say that i am very pleased with the overall result.
I also added a one model yr interchangeable less restrictive air filter cover, but it is not within the thread discussion topic. (It adds more horsepower output, not to mention 1 -2 mpg in addition to the above figures.)
Just a thought.... I'd appreciate your feedback on this.
This 0W30 and 5W30 difference thing is funny. The first number 0 or 5 refers to the coldest tempeture in which oil will pour. For those weights it's somewhere around -60`F. I can promise you that if it's that cold outside I am NOT leaving the house. Both oils will work the same at operating engine tempetures. There should be NO difference in base stock between these two, only the additives, modifiers, or whatever they add.
I use syn-blend and change every 5000 miles. I personally am not lazy and would never consider extended oil drains. No body has yet to convince me that full syn is nothing more than marketing hype and witch craft. An old mechanic once told me oil must be changed because it gets dirty, and breaks down with exposure to heat. He also told me there is not a chemical on this planet that will repair a worn metal part inside an engine.
Perhaps we are crossing operational maintenance items with new capital investment?
Specifically, do you think the new cars will use lubricants?
In addition I would surmise that synthetic lubricants will be in GREATER demand.
Yes, I think it is even more important. With SYNTHETIC, Mobil One I go 15k in each of my four vehicles, I usually go about a yr between oil changes for each. If I used conventional, and that is way improved I might add, I can count on 3-5 trips EACH when one trip will do. So for me, the question distills to: would I rather change oil 12-20 times or 4 times?
A down stream side issue is: what is better or worse 84-140 qts of waste, or 28qts of waste?
An upstream side issue is: does it take more or less product to end up with 84-140 qts of fresh product or 28 qts of fresh product?
I am using Red Line synthetic oil right now but if I decided not to go for this fairly exotic (and expensive) stuff, I'd probably just use a dino oil and change it more frequently. I don't think brand name is as important as it used to be 10-20+ years ago (tougher standards have made the different brand oils more uniform than ever) but I'd probably pick Valvoline, Chevron or some other reputable company that has their own refinery.
Still, if you look at the total cost of keeping a car on the road, using a synthetic oil (even $8 per quart Red Line) is insignificant. Perhaps another $10-20 per year versus hundreds or even thousands of dollars total when you figure depreciation, insurance, fuel, tires, other repairs, etc ...
I wouldn't expect hybrids to take over the auto industry anytime soon. They are very expensive for what you get and more complicated mechanically (requiring more repairs and maintenance). Today's buyers don't even like the fairly inexpensive, high-quality small cars being produced currently. They'd rather buy a SUV, minivan, mid-sized sedan or pick-up truck. Think they are going to give these vehicles up in favor for a car smaller than a Toyota Tercel and 50% more expensive? Ain't gonna happen unless they have NO other choices.
Even if the hybrids become common, they will most likely use synthetics in their engines and transmissions. Currently, the Honda Insight uses a 0W20 (I think) motor oil to squeeze as much power and mileage out of its teeny tiny powerplant as possible. In 10 years, we'll be on the SN or SO classification which will be nearly 100% hydrocracked oil possibly blended with PAO and/or esters. In other words, 100% of the oil available will be essentially synthetic ...
... and we'll have nothing left to argue about here. >;^D
--- Bror Jace
50 years ago you had to change your oil because it got dirty and broke down with heat. Today regardless of what oil you use you must still change your oil because it gets dirty and breaks down with heat.
I do not think hybrids will ever become common. Too expensive for the average American making $30,000 a year. After they are 5 years old it will be expensive to replace the batteries. Electric cars and hybrids sound neat but will never become practical.
I also noticed an old post about the thicker oils still using zddp?, I think they all have to meet the 'SL' API grade, which would mean they all would have to be eliminating the zinc right?
What else can they add to a 10wt oil to make it act like a 30wt at high temp?,,,they must be using something different now that they are pulling the zinc in favor of the cats?
anybody?
I don't use synthetic oil by the way, it's ok by me to change oil every 3k, I agree with Bror on that last post too,,,the difference in the conventional and the synthetics is narrowing,,,at some point I bet conventional oil will routinely be "synthetic" at least by Castrol's definition and all the others will have to start selling "PREMIUM SYNTHETIC" or something like that to identify it being different!!
see ya.
Rando
Yes it gets dirty and eventually breaks down with heat but shoudl not happen in 3000 miles or 5000 miles, unless of course it is a V6 Toyota.
Oh well, whatever floats your boat!
At the time there were several experiments with synthetic oil, and they were basically failures. Why? Synthetic oil was proven (and has been re-proven many times since then) to be a very poor lead scavenger. The result was a soft gray buildup on the piston rings, not surprisingly, said gray buildup was primarily made up of lead. Given that we cannot even buy leaded gasoline these days (except at you local General Aviation airport), this leaves the door wide open for synthetic oil.
Fast forward 25 years and we now have very clean burning fuel, electronic systems to manage the fuel injection and ignition timing to make the combustion process even cleaner (ie. less particulate matter to suspend in the oil) and even good old dino-juice has been beefed up to last longer and protect better. In addition, modern engine oils, specifically Synthetic Oils, have far greater abilities to keep contaminates in suspension with no appreciable loss in lubricity. Couple that with the ability of Synthetic oil to shrug off the effects of water (older Dino Juice used to react with water and form acids) without any loss in lubricity, and you have an oil that can withstand longer oil change intervals without ANY additional engine wear.
Modern engine oil (once again, specifically Synthetic) is far more stable in extreme environments (high engine temps, high RPMs and extreme cold) than conventional oil, as such; it breaks down at a FAR slower rate when compared to the old stuff. Once again, this will reduce the necessity of frequent oil changes.
Now consider many modern engines, such as the inline 6 3.0 liter unit from BMW.
These engines are efficient enough to be certificated as Low Emission Vehicles (LEV), which reduces the combustion byproducts to just a fraction of what were generated by engines from as recent as the late 1990s, and as a result reduces the particulate matter that the oil must hold in suspension, yielding a longer oil change interval.
BMW is using synthetic oil right from the factory; said oil is far more capable than even the best dino-juice at protecting the engine and particulate suspension. Once again, this yields a longer oil change interval.
BMW has seen fit to increase the size of the oil sump to almost double that of other engines of similar displacement, if I remember correctly it holds at least 8 quarts if not 9. Twice the oil in means that each unit of oil circulates through the engine only half as much as a similar sized engine from another manufacturer. This also means twice the already prodigious capacity of synthetic oil to hold particulate matter in suspension.
Add all of the above items together and I would not be surprised if the oil in that engine could last 30,000 miles under normal driving conditions with no adverse effects upon said engine. IMHO, the entire engine system (combustion, metallurgy, lubrication, etc ) has improved to such an extent that a person who sticks by the antiquated 3,000 mile oil change regimen, just because “My Grand Pappy said so”, is both wasting money AND harming the environment.
Best Regards,
Shipo
armtdm: "Yes it gets dirty and eventually breaks down with heat but shoudl not happen in 3000 miles or 5000 miles, unless of course it is a V6 Toyota."
Har har... go back to the engine sludge thread. :P
I don't see them increasing engine warranties yet...except for Chevy so far due to a design flaw in the new V8's for the trucks!!!
Sorry guys, I ain't goin for it, I care more for my truck over the 200k that I expect to keep it than THEY do
Rando
vwracer: " I do not think hybrids will ever become common. Too expensive for the average American making $30,000 a year "
Last time I checked SUV's, were flying out the door at 15K more than Hybrids
True story, my last car was a 1995 Passat GLX VR6. I used to have the oil changed at a Mobil station around the corner from the office, where I would have them put in Mobil 1. The first time I picked up the car after they performed said oil change; I noticed a little clear plastic sticker on the upper left corner of the windshield that had a reminder for my next oil change. The mileage they put on there was only 2,000 beyond my then current mileage. I just assumed that they made a mistake, and immediately tore it off the glass. Sure enough, the next time I had the car in for a change (7,500 miles later) they put another 2,000 mile reminder sticker on my car. I challenged the owner as to why he would do such a thing. He told me Mobil had instructed him to recommend 1,000 mile oil changes for Dino-Juice and 2,000 mile changes for Synthetic. I asked him what the rational was behind such an absurd recommendation, and he actually had the gall to tell me that modern engines used the engine oil as the repository for all of the combustion byproducts that used to go out the tailpipe!
I started changing my own oil again.
Best Regards,
Shipo
SHIPO, The guy was partialy right, newer cars do recerculate more emmissions back into the oil and crankcase. BUT... I'm with u, no reason for 1 and 2k oil changes.
bob
1. It's actually better
2. The auto mfr. thinks it's better but really doesn't know for sure.
3. The auto mfr. thinks consumers will like that because it shows that the mfr. is using the "very best" oil.
I don't think the fact that some high-end vehicles use Mobil 1 as the factory fill proves it's a better oil. I use Mobil 1 in our two vehicles, by the way.
Some synthetics exist around $3/qt which is $1-1.50 less than most of the major players (Valvoline Synpower, Mobil1, Castrol Syntec, etc.) and pretty close to $2.50, relatively speaking.
However, the "cheap" synthetics (Wal-Mart's house brand, Murray's house brand, Havoline, etc.) seem to have a lower reputation than the big boys. Why is this? My opinion is that it's due in large part to their lower cost. If it's that much cheaper, it must not be as good, right? My sense is that many, many people think that way.
Even if Havoline's synthetic is outstanding, people aren't buying it because it's priced like the value player.