Karl's Daily Log Book

rorr · June 2005

" know how Ford likes to say how their F-series is the best selling vehicle in the world..."

These are Ford ads. And legally, they are correct since Chevy and GMC ARE different nameplates. You know they are really the same trucks. I know they are really the same trucks. But there are untold thousands who insist there are REAL differences between Chevy's and GMC's and while they are ardent fans of one nameplate they wouldn't be caught dead in the other. I've even heard radio ads crowing about how GMC's are "professional grade" while their competition is "like a rock".

Go figure. :confuse:

explorerx4 · June 2005

karl,
I sympathize with you on losing your favorite canyon run. if 55 is 8/10's in a porsche, maybe the speed limit was too high for lesser cars/drivers? how would you like to be the cop who has to patrol that area? gets to see lots of carnage. i've seen a little, it was enough for me. 8 a year die. how many end up paralyzed or disfigured? I leave for work around 5am, and there is already traffic on my local highway I-84, in addition to the large trucks which i expect.

editor_karl · June 2005

I leave for work around 5am, and there is already traffic on my local highway I-84, in addition to the large trucks which i expect.

I understand your thinking, and I know a lot of other people have brought up the basic point of "With so much traffic in today's world how can even expert drivers realistically enjoy their vehicles on public roads without posing a danger to others?"

It's a totally fair question, but I need to make one thing clear about the stretch of Mulholland in question:
IT'S DESERTED!

That's why this lower speed limit is so bogus. Not only was it the perfect road in terms of layout and convienence (it's just off my commute to work), but there is almost never any other traffic on it. I think this is because:
A. There are less than 10 houses on the section of road in question, all very spread out (BTW, I know exactly where the houses are and use extra care when approaching them) and,
B. If you aren't a local resident, there's almost no reason to be on it (unless you enjoy driving it...); it simply isn't an effective route in terms of getting from point A to point B

Between the lack of local traffic and the lack of through traffic, I would often drive the last 10-plus miles of Mulholland and see NO other cars, and I don't think I ever saw more than maybe FOUR at its busiest (remember, this is a TEN-MILE stretch that takes about 15 minutes to drive because the curves make it impossible to even maintain the former 55 mph speed limit).

So, while I fully understand the idea of not endangering other motorists by showing off my "expert" skills, I don't think that argument holds true if there are no other motorists to endanger. Many of the roads in the Santa Monica mountain range are like this, which is why I suspect those 8 fatalities are single vehicle accidents, and unless there is mechanical failure (almost never happens, BTW) I don't have sympathy for "victims" of single vehicle accidents (because they are almost always drunkards or squids).

I need to see statistics about "my" stretch of Mulholland being the location of regular multiple vehicle accidents to change my mind on this point, but I doubt those staticstics exist.

I don't know if my Carmudgeon column made the total lack of traffic on this stretch of road clear (which is my bad), but I wanted to make sure I covered that element for the purposes of this discussion.

editor_karl · June 2005

These are Ford ads. And legally, they are correct since Chevy and GMC ARE different nameplates. You know they are really the same trucks. I know they are really the same trucks.

I completely agree with you guys. I have said for years that this whole "best selling truck on the planet" claim was a bit bogus when you look at Chevy AND GMC numbers added together, but I also give Ford credit for making the claim, as technically they are correct. The F Series is the best selling single nameplate truck on the planet.

If GM was smart, they'd figure out a way to make a similar claim work or them. I'm no marketing Einstein, but would it really be that tough to create a slogan like:

GM -- Home of the best selling full-sized trucks on the planet!

See how I simply added that "s" to "truck" and didn't specify division? Just like there are knuckleheads out there who refuse to acknowledge that Chevy and GMC trucks are the same, there are plenty of potential truck buyers who won't catch the subtleties of that slogan, and simply think "Wow, GM makes the best selling truck on the planet!" which, technically, is correct. The whole point of advertising isn't to get mired in the details but to creatively spin a simple message that people can pick up on.

You know, sort of like "That thing got a Hemi?" Not exactly brain surgery, and it doesn't really specify why having a Hemi is supposedly good, but it worked!

editor_karl · June 2005

I know I'm supposed to be a professional journalist who speaks in measured, carefully chosen words, but I instrument tested the Lincoln Mark LT today at our test facility.

This is, quite possibly, the dumbest vehicle ever created. You know, the Aztek's execution was horrid, but the idea (a Minivan/SUV crossover) was actually slightly ahead of its time (can you say Pacifica, XC90, B9 Tribeca, etc.?).

I don't know what the idea is behind the Mark LT, except to glue a bunch of gaudy chrome plates to an F-150, soften the spring rates while cranking up the MSRP, and hope people don't realize they can get a better handling, and more functional, F-150 with all the same luxury features for roughly $10,000 less. Heck, you can buy the Harley-Davidson or King Ranch versions of the F-150 and get better leather than what's in the Mark LT.

I'm not kidding about the handling, either. The F-150 has the best steering in the full-size truck market, and the suspension tuning is spot on (I like both its steering and overall ride quality more than the Titan, and I love the Titan). But the Mark LT is all floppy and bouncy, so going through the slalom was one of the more harrowing experiences I've had in the last three years of instrumented testing. It kept wanting to snap around on me, though putting it in "four-wheel drive high" helped a bit.

Yes, I know GM does the same thing with the Avalanche/Escalade EXT, but both of those trucks offer a unique feature (removable midgate) to distinguish them from a standard Silverado, and the Cadillac's styling is truly distinctive, making it look almost nothing like an Avalanche. The Mark LT literally looks like an F-150 with chrome plates glued to the lower panels. The rear seat was also weird. The seat bottom was smaller and shorter, making it far less comfortable than the F-150 crew cab's. I don't know what the thinking was on that decision??? Let's make the luxury version less passenger friendly???

Anyway, I know FoMoCo is strapped for cash, and I know they are struggling with what to do with Lincoln, but guys -- this isn't the answer. If this is Ford's version of creating an alternate full-size truck division, ala GMC, then I'm prepared to call the General brilliant by comparison -- even if it has messed up GM's ability to make the "best selling truck" claim.

dieselone · June 2005

Good point, you'd think Ford would have learned a lesson after the Blackwood mistake. I can't believe they are going to try it again. I'll bet it will have the same result and we won't be talking about the LT in a year.

elias · June 2005

Karl, as far as i know, california has strict laws about setting speed limits - an engineering study is required before a speed limit can be legally changed, and i believe the 85% percentile speed is a consideration in the study. if no recent study exists for mulholland that justifies the new/low limit, then any speeding tickets written there can probably be defeated in court. if you want to push the city/town/state about this i recommend consulting the national motorists association or your local NMA lobbyist. alternatively you could request the most recent engineering study for mulholland.

rayainsw · June 2005

" Karl, any plans on reviewing a Grand Prix GXP? Just curious.

Just checked the road test schedule, and we have a GXP coming June 6-13. "

Has it arrived?
Have you driven it?
Initial impressions?
Thanks,
- Ray
Negotiating for one, but still very curious . . .

kevm14 · June 2005

But there are untold thousands who insist there are REAL differences between Chevy's and GMC's

One of my favorites is "GMC's have thicker sheetmetal." Yeah, ok.

editor_karl · June 2005

if you want to push the city/town/state about this i recommend consulting the national motorists association or your local NMA lobbyist. alternatively you could request the most recent engineering study for mulholland.

You make a great point. I actually tried to fight that last speeding ticket I got on PCH by claiming that at least 85% of the drivers on PCH travel at above 50 mph, and I requested the latest engineering study to prove my point. But of course I didn't get the study and I was simply found "guilty" by the judge (big surprise!!).

But, this isn't a "fighting ticket" situation, just a "justify the lower speed limit" situation, so there may be something to it. Let me look into it...

davem2001 · June 2005

Maybe people will think the Lincoln LT has "thicker sheetmetal" than the F-150, too? LOL!

editor_karl · June 2005

OK, my mistake. The GXP comes in on JULY 6, not June 6. And if you're keeping track, that's also when the Cobalt sedan finally arrives.

Yes, acquiring GM press cars can be a bit of a challenge. Hey, at least my Corvette convertible story just posted -- complete with video.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=105925

bigdaddycoats · June 2005

Maybe you will get an 06 SS Cobalt sedan with the new 2.4???

rayainsw · June 2005

"OK, my mistake. The GXP comes in on JULY 6, not June 6."

Aha.
Thanks.
I will likely make a final decision before then. Perhaps even this PM.

But I will definitely read the review with great interest when you do publish it!

- Ray
Hoping to publish an owners review soon . .

kevm14 · June 2005

Hey, at least my Corvette convertible story just posted -- complete with video.

Hey Karl, was that you driving at 1:28 in the video?? Sloppy!!

I read the review and have a few comments.

First, you've got a decimal point shift (and maybe the wrong digits entirely) in the slalom section.
I noticed you had trouble doing fast 2-3 shifts. I find this particularly interesting, because my 95 Camaro Z28 with the sister transmission (T56) will essentially not allow a rushed, redline 2-3 upshift. You can shift 2-3 fast, but you have to keep rpms low. You can also shift at redline, but you can't rush it. It also annoys me. Sometimes it feels like I end up slamming the shifter into the gate between 1st and third. I always assumed this was due to the fact that it has 156k on it, but if a brand new C6 is doing it with what GM claims is a new and improved shift feel design, then I don't know what to think. A friend of mine says he rebuilt the T56 6-speed that he put in his 96 Caprice and it shifts "like butter." Weird.

When I drove my cousin's 01 Z06, I also discovered an appreciation for Competitive Driving Mode. Do you hold down the button to engage it on this car? I still remember when my cousin first picked up his Z06 and I was following him in the Camaro I mentioned (it was his at the time....nice upgrade, huh). He turned active handling completely off and accelerated hard through first and dumped it into 2nd gear. He almost lost it! That's when we realized this car was providing a level of performance neither of us had ever encountered.

jchan2 · June 2005

Do you know what trimline your Cobalt will be?

Hopefully it won't be a Cobalt SS sedan...

bigdaddycoats · June 2005

Why not an SS Sedan??

jchan2 · June 2005

I don't think anybody, except Car And Driver, has tested a "normal" Cobalt...

Well, Consumer Reports has, and they hated it, but that only makes 2 magazines...

I wouldn't mind an SS Sedan, it's just that I'm holding out for a Cobalt LS/LT review.

davem2001 · June 2005

I don't think they even make an SS sedan.

bigdaddycoats · June 2005

In 06 there will be an SS sedan and coupe with a new 2.4 Ecotec. There will still also be the SS Supercharged coupe.

editor_karl · June 2005

We are getting an LT sedan for testing.

When this topic first came up a few months ago it was clear that most of you had read everything you needed on the SS trim, so I specified a "non SS" version of the Cobalt.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it stacks up as well.

Actually, here's a sneek peak at our editorial plan -- we're trying to line up an economy sedan comparison test. Tell me that won't make you Cobalt fans (and other economy sedan fans) happy.

bigdaddycoats · June 2005

Yes, we have read a lot on the SS supercharged coupe. But nothing on the SS models that are new for 06.

For 2006 the Cobalt will be offered in sedan and coupe form with a new 170hp 2.4 Ecotec engine (SS designation). These will be available with both manual and automatic.

The SS models are also supposed to have 17" wheels and tires and a more sport tuned suspension.

I would imagine that these new models may be entertaining and maybe even challenge the Mazda3 s.

Production is to start soon or has already.

Karl - see if you guys can get your hands on one of these?

jchan2 · June 2005

Are you going to get a next generation Civic AND the current generation one? (due to the timing)

I'm looking forward to the test.

kurtamaxxguy · June 2005

Karl, here's a true story regarding the Audi A3;

I emailed Audi asking about fitting chains to the A3 for winter driving. Guess what? They don't know the answer! They referred me to their dealers, who (they imply) know more about the A3 than Audi itself does.

Make no mistake, the A3 is a neat car and the AWD version comming next year even better.

But is this kind of nonsense typical in the industry?

editor_karl · June 2005

Are you going to get a next generation Civic AND the current generation one? (due to the timing)

While the next Civic will "debut" at SEMA in November, it won't go on sale for another year, so getting a final production version in the next month seems unlikely. But we'll get a current version, and we can always follow this test up by pitting the winner (and any other new entries) against the new Civic next year.

editor_karl · June 2005

But is this kind of nonsense typical in the industry?

Nonsense? In this industry? Never!

rayainsw · June 2005

Just f.y.i. - because I have posted questions here about the upcoming Karl / Edmunds GXP test - I purchased a GXP yesterday.

A short post is under Future Vehicles. (Odd place for that forum, since they have been selling them for a while now . .)

I will post further impressions as I have time.
- Ray
Vroooooom . .

editor_karl · June 2005

I drove a Mazdaspeed Miata last night, and all I can say is the new one has quite a benchmark to hit.

We'll be driving the all-new Miata (oh, sorry, MX-5) in a few weeks, so it was good to have a final ride in the current model just to refresh our memories. I think what I like most about the Miata is, despite being around for 15 years and going through numerous upgrades, it still retains the original spirit that made the first model so compelling (not an easy thing to do over a decade and a half in today's world...)

The car still feels more like you're wearing it than driving it, which is the key to any great sports car. I know the new one is supposed to weigh essentially the same, so I expect that characteristic to remain intact (fingers crossed!).

The flipside of this trait is that the cabin has always felt a bit cramped, and it will be interesting to see if Mazda can address that concern without losing the "wearing it" sensations. Personally, if they can't, I hope they stick with "cramped and cat-like" versus "roomy and relaxed."

When we know, you'll know.

editor_karl · June 2005

Look forward to hearing what you think. By the time we get our test car in July you'll be an expert on the GXP, so I'll want to compare notes.

rayainsw · June 2005

Look forward to hearing what you think. By the time we get our test car in July you'll be an expert on the GXP, so I'll want to compare notes. "

I will likely post some initial impressions this weekend.

I am also looking forward to your instrumented test results (High Torque + FWD can = difficult to launch) as well as your thoughts on things like build quality, etc.

- Ray
Enjoying exhaust note = juvenile, I know, but . . .

jaserb · June 2005

I was sorely tempted by a 'speed Miata earlier in the year. With all the incentives I could have gotten a leftover '04 for well under $20k. I loved the ride, but I was just a little too cramped to really enjoy driving one. I'm 5'11" 195, so not exactly enormous. When I finally decided to go the other way and get an older Alfa Spider one of the major factors was that I actually fit in it.

-Jason

kurtamaxxguy · June 2005

'nonsense in this industry? Never!"

Uh huh, uh huh, uh huh....

Anyway, when you folks test an A3 with AWD, please let us know if it is useable in SNOW, with CHAINS? Some of us, especially those driving __outside__ S. Calif, might like to know!

Meanwhile, the GM blog is discussing OHV .vs. OHC, claiming enthusasist writers have little interest in the latter ( unless it's a HEMI).

true? false?

navigator89 · June 2005

I just read your follow up test of the Mercedes SLK55 AMG. When I visited the Car and Driver website today, surprisingly I discovered an in depth road test of the same car.

My question is this. They compare the acceleration to 60mph to a Corvette, and they rate it at 4.3 seconds. Why was your 0-60 acceleration time off by eight tenths of a second? You guys reported 5.1 seconds.

I know there are several variables in instrumented testing, but this seems like a really huge discrepancy. It's almost a whole second difference in acceleration times! I was wondering if you had any possible explanations?

Here's a link to C&D's road test.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=9481

jchan2 · June 2005

Ah. What are the other cars that have been invited?

editor_karl · June 2005

Meanwhile, the GM blog is discussing OHV .vs. OHC, claiming enthusasist writers have little interest in the latter ( unless it's a HEMI). true? false?

To me it all comes down to power deliver, first, and refinement, second. If OHV can give me massive torque, I'll give up a bit of NVH to enjoy it (ala Corvette).

But the Japanese and Europeans are getting better at producing excellent power/torque AND refinement with OHC, so I wonder how much longer the hot rod die hards will be able to justify the old "yeah, but it takes pushrods to make REAL horsepower" position.

Great timing on your question, BTW, as I just rode in a Lexus V8-powered, custom-built street rod, and it sounded awesome and made plenty of low-end torque. Traction was a major issue during testing, and it still pulled a 13.9 quarter mile (the owner was driving, no me; I just ran the test equipment).

Anyway, I think OHV is probably becoming overrated in today's world. I can tell you that the F430 makes excellent low-end torque, much better than the 360 it replaces. And let's not even talk about the SL65...(though some consider supercharging "cheating")

andys120 · June 2005

I live in snow country (NH) and I can't remember the last time I saw a car wearing chains, hell I don't think the highway patrol here uses them. I doubt an AWD Audi equipped with good snows would need them in less than ten inches of snow (on the road surface). If you live where you encounter worse conditions the A3 isn't for you, you need a 4wd truck.

editor_karl · June 2005

I know there are several variables in instrumented testing, but this seems like a really huge discrepancy. It's almost a whole second difference in acceleration times! I was wondering if you had any possible explanations?

Here are the variables as I see it (know and unknown):
1. Different driver (known)
2. Different test conditions (known -- was tested on a different day)
3. Different number conversion system (known -- we use different conversion software from C&D)
4. Different test location (unknown, but probably -- I don't know where they tested -- California or Michigan)
5. Different test vehicle (unknown, but probably -- it could have been the same test vehicle, but they tested theirs at least two months ago, we tested ours about three weeks ago, so probably two different vehicles, and definitely different if they tested in Michigan, because we tested in California)

All that said, it does seem like a large variation. I'm not sure what to tell you, though I can describe my driving technique for the SLK55. With Mercedes' traction control system, it was futile to try and launch with the TC off. The computer allowed just enough tire spin for maximum acceleration without excessively cutting power. Turning TC off made balancing acceleration with wheel spin almost impossible, and kept resulting in slower times. Same with shifting -- left it in Auto mode (set to "Sport") because the tranny upshifted crisply right before the rev limiter cut in. If you tried to manually shift it, it resulted in slower times.

BTW, we found this same situation to exist with a CLS55 we just finished testing. The best times came with TC on and in full auto (Sport) mode. I can say with confidence that, just as sequential manual transmissions have surpassed a human's ability to shift quickly and match revs when downshifting, Mercedes has masted the art of letting the computer handle the launch technique -- much to the chagrin of "real" sports car guys everywhere, I'm sure.

jchan2 · June 2005

Why would an A3 Quattro need snow chains? If you can get decent snow tires on there, you won't even need to bother with the chains....

If you live where you encounter worse conditions the A3 isn't for you, you need a 4wd truck.

Or you could try one of those jumbo sized 4WD SUVs.... (not the crossovers, but the body on frame ones)

alfox · June 2005

Like he said, a 4wd truck. That's what the large SUVs are.

elias · June 2005

imho snow chains are useless on an AWD vehicle especially. just use 4 modern snow/ice tires like blizzaks or arctic alpine. i'm not in the auto industry, so no nonsense here.

stever · June 2005

Chains may be required in some states on all vehicles in some conditions. (Caltrans)

I think Audi referred Kurtamaxxguy to the dealer in an attempt to shift liability. :shades:

Steve, Host

elias · June 2005

i had to deal with the donner pass a few times during snow. i think those caltrans requirements are silly, but then again, i've never been stranded in a blizzard on a remote closed highway in northern california and had to build a snow cave for my wife and baby while i walked miles in the snow to find a remote road worker days later, losing my feet to frostbite in the process. (that Stolpa guy actually had chains - but removed them when he thought conditions were improving - and later couldn't get them reinstalled.)

anyway, if you don't have to deal with I-80 & donner pass or any other paranoid-caltrans-snow-areas, you will be golden with 4 snow tires & AWD!

kurtamaxxguy · June 2005

Not just Caltrans, but Oregon Hwy patrols __mandate__ chains anytime snow falls within three major Interstate passes. No options...if those passes are snow covered, you put on chains or you don't drive through.
BTW, Utah could care less - people drive those snow covered freeways at 60 Mph or more on all seasoners (not hearsay - saw it firsthand).

Getting back to cars, specifically RWD, ... Karl, how much horespower is "enough"? Does 800 HP make sense in a RWD car whose weight distribution makes it impossible to use the power, other than burn tires to a cinder during specacular drifts?

kurtamaxxguy · June 2005

"I think Audi referred Kurtamaxxguy to the dealer in an attempt to shift liability"

....and if so, that's laughable and pathetic. Is Audi USA so shell shocked from the unfortunate aspect of their former transmission problems (set right long ago) that they won't back up the cars they distribute to their dealers? Does this mean that if I get a new Audi from a __BAD__ Audi dealer, AUDI USA will wash their hands of it???

Maybe I should just get over it and accept cars as disposable toys? If I could only win the California Lotto......

explorerx4 · June 2005

does 800 hp make sense in a FWD vehicle?

wbdtexas · June 2005

Editors: I am interested to know what contributed to the acceleration results that you achieved with the Magnum RT during your comparison test with the Subaru Legacy GT wagon. The Magnum's times were considerably slower than the figures that you published in the first installment of your long-term test of the Magnum.

You indicated that you used the same Magnum in the comparison test as you are using in your long-term test. The figures posted in the first installment of the long-term test were: 0-60 in 6.3 seconds and the quarter-mile in 14.4 seconds. The figures from the comparison test were 6.8 seconds and 15.0 seconds. Given that the vehicle was the same and that automatic transmissions generally provide more potential for greater consistency in elapsed times than driver/manual combinations, the difference between the times is enormous.

I would suspect that the long-term and comparison tests were conducted at different altitudes and/or at different ambient temperatures. Did you perform the tests at different locations?

Just curious. Thanks---

jaserb · June 2005

"Utah could care less - people drive those snow covered freeways at 60 Mph or more on all seasoners (not hearsay - saw it firsthand)."

Having driven in Utah for 14 years I can verify that statement. Parley's Canyon between SLC and Park City is absolutely insane when it snows. Heading up to the ski resorts like Alta and Snowbird they will require either 4x4 or chains.

-Jason

nitromax · June 2005

....that driving in the Rocky mountains during the winter snow season is better if using chains.

got it

Now how about the other 97% of the country (and 99.9% of the population)?

A good FWD car and traction control will get you through just about anything.

kurtamaxxguy · June 2005

..might that be the new Solstice with the mods like MallettCars stuff such as small block 400+ hp V8 and 19" rims with 275/35R tires? How much could the price of that car be without it becomming a "bad deal" compared to other RWD extreme cars?

Actually, Karl, might be nice to see Edmunds create a small division of itself for the explicit purpose of testing/commenting on extreme cars ("EdmundsXtreme")?

rayainsw · June 2005

Look forward to hearing what you think. By the time we get our test car in July you'll be an expert on the GXP, so I'll want to compare notes. "

I posted some impressions today - in the Future Vehicles section - as the GXP discussion has not been moved to or integrated with the Grand Prix \ Sedans. . .

Just f.y.i.
- Ray
Happy GXP driver . . .

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