Did you ever look into whether or not the spy pics of the 07 Envoy are really the Envoy or are they indeed the Acadia?
As I'm sure you know, bigdaddy, GM insiders on other web sites have confirmed that this is the Acadia, not the Envoy. Google "GMC Acadia" and you'll find discussions of Edmunds' post elsewhere (sorry, can't direct link without violating Edmunds policy).
--Robert
wondering if the Chinese will copy this vehicle and call it the Cicada :-)
I admit I really, really disliked the GLI - especially it's handling - but how in the world are you guys at Edmunds getting such lousy 0-60 runs out of that car with, imho, the best mass produced engine around? Honestly, it's baffling. That engine has 207 ft-lbs of torque from 1800-5000 rpm...the kind of constant torque most companies would kill to have (my 330i doesn't pull nearly as strongly until it's over 4500 rpm).
Then again, I found the TSX more engaging and fun than the GLI - better ergonomics, infinitely better manual (best manuals around), more feedback in the steering...plus the inherent reliability edge of Acura over the utter garbage that is VW engineering.
They also got an over 14 second 1/4 mile time on the 2005 GTO, which many are seeing sub-13 at racetracks in stock form. The Subie guys were also complaining about the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. I believe Karl has mentioned that they recently changed testing facilities to one that's higher in elevation, and a lot warmer (STi and GTO comparo had the outside temp around 100 IIRC). Not sure if they're not using appropriate correction factors, or they're driving like there's an egg behind the gas pedal, or what, but Edmunds' recent times have been way off what others have duplicated in the real world.
I dont really understand how you could like the Impala but not the GXP. Arent they basically the same V8 powered front drivers on ancient platforms with nothing but sheetmetal to differentiate them?
As noted already, these are not really the "same" car. We talked to the Chevy engineers and they told us all the differences between the two (wheel/tire sizes, suspension tuning, steering tuning, etc.). For instance, he told us to floor the V8-powered SS from a dead stop and see if the steering wheel jumped around (which it certainly does on the GXP). On the SS it didn't. He told us the front tire spec and the softer suspension make all the difference.
I dont see how the Impala is any more modern or competent than the Cobalt. At least the cobalt is on a modern platform and features modern DOHC engines.
There are two elements to every car: 1. The technical background 2. The actual execution
Whether you're talking platforms, engines, steering design, etc. it doesn't really matter how "theoretically advanced" a car -- or aspect of a car -- is if the final execution blows. On the Impala SS, the final execution works regardless of the age of the basic platform. On the GXP, it doesn't. On the "brand new" HHR the handling, power and interior quality don't work. Same with Cobalt, except on the power side, which is quite strong.
The Pontiac Torrent's engine may not have the best pedigree, but you know what? It works. It has plenty of power. It has low NVH (whether from basic engine design or engine mounting system or level of sound deadening I don't know -- maybe all three). It never feels like it's overwhelmed by the chore of moving the Torrent around; actually it feels pretty spry (unlike the HHR).
The finishing order was Accord, Fusion, Sonota and Camry. Do you agree with thos results Karl?
Those results sound dead on to me, but I'd have to drive them back-to-back to be sure. I totally agree that the Fusion could use more engine, but otherwise it's a very strong offering.
I admit I really, really disliked the GLI - especially it's handling - but how in the world are you guys at Edmunds getting such lousy 0-60 runs out of that car with, imho, the best mass produced engine around? Honestly, it's baffling. That engine has 207 ft-lbs of torque from 1800-5000 rpm...the kind of constant torque most companies would kill to have (my 330i doesn't pull nearly as strongly until it's over 4500 rpm).
We were disappointed in the numbers, too. What can I say, that's what the car ran. The TL was tested on the same day with the same driver (me). Do you think it ran too slow as well? Remember, torque is just one element. There's also gearing, shifter quality and tire spec (for traction). The TL was strong in all three of those areas (Honda/Acura shifters are simply awesome -- VW shifters tend to be rather lame).
I'm coming to you live from the Edmunds.com/Inside Line booth on the SEMA show floor.
The show is as monstrous as ever, but lots of great things to see (some of them are even related to cars! ).
That open-top Ford GTX concept is here, and I spoke briefly with Kip Ewing (the designer) about it. This guy represents the best of the automotive industry. He's got both talent and massive passion, which are the two factors that most contributed to the Ford GT production car ever happening in the first place. I hope Ford treats him right and works to get more of his ideas into showrooms (not necessarily the GTX -- it's got a rather limited appeal -- but things that would enhance mainstream products like the Fusion and 500).
Lots of killer new Civic Si coupes here, too. I just drove that car (a stock version) last Friday at our test facility (can't remember exactly what I pulled, but I think it was a high 14-second quarter mile). This car is VERY cool, and it's nice to see Honda back in the enthusiast game after blowing it on the last-generation Civic Si.
We're going to have a press conference tomorrow morning to announce the Most Significant Vehicle of the Year for 2006 (we'll have the vehicle in our booth, with a cover to be pulled off). Any guesses out there on what it is?
We're also announcing all the 2006 Most Wanted winners in 26 categories, and we'll be posting all the information to our site at 10 a.m. pacific time.
I dont doubt the Impala is a decent car, I actually like the interior and the exterior is OK. I dont see how the HHR is any worse though, considering the price point. I think it's pretty clear that the HHR wasnt meant to be a rocket and I think it's 0-60 times are close to that of the Element and Scion xb as well as 4 cylinder SUVs like the RAV4. The handling is probably a little ponderous when compared to a nimble econo car, but again it's competitive with other small boxy vehicles. I dont think you're going to find an Element at Laguna Seca anytime soon and the same is true of the HHRm at least until an SS version debuts. The HHR is about style and practicality, not winning races. At least that is the way I see it. Same with the cobalt base model. When you are talking about lack of handling I assume you are talking about the base model, but the base model is more or less designed to be a Chevy version of the corolla. The SS is sportier and the SS s/c is definitely in the upper eschelon of small sporty cars based on the numbers I've seen. A $22K car that pulls .9gs and does 0-60 in 6secs flat is pretty impressive, especially when it has in interior far better than the Neon SRT-4. Aside from the new civic/mazda 3 I dont see any other small cars that are superior when you consider their entire model lineups.
The Z06 posted some impressive numbers in the latest C&D issue. Right on top of the Ford GT they tested last year.
If Edmunds does a sedan test similar to what MT and C&D did this month PLEASE include the Altima and G6 and leave out the camry. It is pointless to put a lame duck Camry in a comparo, as those two mags did, and then leave out a class leader like the Altima V6. They knew the Camry was doomed to last place when they started. I was glad that both mags noted some of my observations about the Fusion's lackluster interior. Prior to this eveyone was giving the Fusion a free pass in terms of material quality and fit/finish.
Now that Karl has his Blog up and running we will be making this discussion read-only. Karl is already talking about GM rounding the corner and other great issues.
NOTE: If you have "remember me" / autologin enabled for Forums the above link might be redirecting you to our new main Straightline blog...especially if you are in FireFox. Weird bug and we are working on it.
Comments
As I'm sure you know, bigdaddy, GM insiders on other web sites have confirmed that this is the Acadia, not the Envoy. Google "GMC Acadia" and you'll find discussions of Edmunds' post elsewhere (sorry, can't direct link without violating Edmunds policy).
--Robert
wondering if the Chinese will copy this vehicle and call it the Cicada :-)
I admit I really, really disliked the GLI - especially it's handling - but how in the world are you guys at Edmunds getting such lousy 0-60 runs out of that car with, imho, the best mass produced engine around? Honestly, it's baffling. That engine has 207 ft-lbs of torque from 1800-5000 rpm...the kind of constant torque most companies would kill to have (my 330i doesn't pull nearly as strongly until it's over 4500 rpm).
Then again, I found the TSX more engaging and fun than the GLI - better ergonomics, infinitely better manual (best manuals around), more feedback in the steering...plus the inherent reliability edge of Acura over the utter garbage that is VW engineering.
As noted already, these are not really the "same" car. We talked to the Chevy engineers and they told us all the differences between the two (wheel/tire sizes, suspension tuning, steering tuning, etc.). For instance, he told us to floor the V8-powered SS from a dead stop and see if the steering wheel jumped around (which it certainly does on the GXP). On the SS it didn't. He told us the front tire spec and the softer suspension make all the difference.
I dont see how the Impala is any more modern or competent than the Cobalt. At least the cobalt is on a modern platform and features modern DOHC engines.
There are two elements to every car:
1. The technical background
2. The actual execution
Whether you're talking platforms, engines, steering design, etc. it doesn't really matter how "theoretically advanced" a car -- or aspect of a car -- is if the final execution blows. On the Impala SS, the final execution works regardless of the age of the basic platform. On the GXP, it doesn't. On the "brand new" HHR the handling, power and interior quality don't work. Same with Cobalt, except on the power side, which is quite strong.
The Pontiac Torrent's engine may not have the best pedigree, but you know what? It works. It has plenty of power. It has low NVH (whether from basic engine design or engine mounting system or level of sound deadening I don't know -- maybe all three). It never feels like it's overwhelmed by the chore of moving the Torrent around; actually it feels pretty spry (unlike the HHR).
The finishing order was Accord, Fusion, Sonota and Camry. Do you agree with thos results Karl?
Those results sound dead on to me, but I'd have to drive them back-to-back to be sure. I totally agree that the Fusion could use more engine, but otherwise it's a very strong offering.
No, I haven't been able to yet. Happy to hear other people's thoughts (I know someone has already replied -- thanks!).
We were disappointed in the numbers, too. What can I say, that's what the car ran. The TL was tested on the same day with the same driver (me). Do you think it ran too slow as well? Remember, torque is just one element. There's also gearing, shifter quality and tire spec (for traction). The TL was strong in all three of those areas (Honda/Acura shifters are simply awesome -- VW shifters tend to be rather lame).
The show is as monstrous as ever, but lots of great things to see (some of them are even related to cars!
That open-top Ford GTX concept is here, and I spoke briefly with Kip Ewing (the designer) about it. This guy represents the best of the automotive industry. He's got both talent and massive passion, which are the two factors that most contributed to the Ford GT production car ever happening in the first place. I hope Ford treats him right and works to get more of his ideas into showrooms (not necessarily the GTX -- it's got a rather limited appeal -- but things that would enhance mainstream products like the Fusion and 500).
Lots of killer new Civic Si coupes here, too. I just drove that car (a stock version) last Friday at our test facility (can't remember exactly what I pulled, but I think it was a high 14-second quarter mile). This car is VERY cool, and it's nice to see Honda back in the enthusiast game after blowing it on the last-generation Civic Si.
We're going to have a press conference tomorrow morning to announce the Most Significant Vehicle of the Year for 2006 (we'll have the vehicle in our booth, with a cover to be pulled off). Any guesses out there on what it is?
We're also announcing all the 2006 Most Wanted winners in 26 categories, and we'll be posting all the information to our site at 10 a.m. pacific time.
Go Karl!
The Z06 posted some impressive numbers in the latest C&D issue. Right on top of the Ford GT they tested last year.
If Edmunds does a sedan test similar to what MT and C&D did this month PLEASE include the Altima and G6 and leave out the camry. It is pointless to put a lame duck Camry in a comparo, as those two mags did, and then leave out a class leader like the Altima V6. They knew the Camry was doomed to last place when they started. I was glad that both mags noted some of my observations about the Fusion's lackluster interior. Prior to this eveyone was giving the Fusion a free pass in terms of material quality and fit/finish.
See you in Karl on Cars!
http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl
NOTE: If you have "remember me" / autologin enabled for Forums the above link might be redirecting you to our new main Straightline blog...especially if you are in FireFox. Weird bug and we are working on it.
Domestic Manufacturers Suffer Brain Drain - http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8c307
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