They put a tranny fluid pump in there with a heat exchanger at the front.
Remember, though, that this car has the trans mounted at the rear. Which means the part by your legs and under the shifter isn't the transmission. There's the engine, exhaust and torque tube, but the tranny is in the back.
I don't know if that means the Z06 has the worst shifter in 25 years. Then again, I'm no expert on manuals.
I can pretty comfortably agree that the Z06's shifter doesn't feel as slick, or smooth, or even satisfying but one thing I've noticed is the following combinations:
1) a car can be cheap and slow and have a "good" shifter (any number of common 4 cylinder and V6 FWDs) 2) a car can be expensive and fast and have a "good" shifter (the GT, European imports, etc) 3) if a car is an excellent bargain for the straight line acceleration it provides, then it probably has a "mediocre" shifter (F-bodies, Corvette) or is missing a speed (like the Mustang GT)
I've always wondered how the 89-96 Corvette 6-speed (by the german ZF company) felt. Probably decent. Anyone remember?
Alarm manufacturers have offered it for ages as an option on anything with an automatic.
I've never met an aftermarket alarm installation that didn't either have problems initially, fail to work correctly at some point, or cause a serious problem. If it can be provided by the OEM, so much the better. This goes for ANY electronic feature.
I think you have a point here. Unless a company is willing / able to spend beaucoup bucks on the transmission it's probably difficult to build a gearbox that can handle the kind of torque a big V8 can put out. You end up with something like a more modern Muncie rock crusher.
People who are fans of old MBs and BMWs used to argue that they didnt have to lead in terms of technology because they got the basics right. To me that is nothing more than an excuse and when you look at how many gadgets are packed into European cars today I think it's clear that they believe gadgets = innovation.
I have a May 1984 issue of Car and Driver sitting here and I read a review of the 1985 Mercedes-Benz 500SEC. The thing had like 184hp from its 5 liter SOHC V8, which is just bad (a 1985 Buick Electra had 125hp from its 2.8L pushrod V6 in the same issue and only 50lb-ft less torque!). But what I found relevant to this discussion was their critique of the audio system (rated at 6 watts/channel, by the way :surprise: ):
"The Becker, like so many contemporary car-stereo systems, looks as if it had been hijacked from the cockpit of a Boeing 767. Punching up the proper sequence of buttons necessary to find a station of one's choice quickly in a strange geographic area can require the patience and expertise necessary to arm and launch an intermediate-range missle. This is downright silly for a manufacturer that prides itself on no-nonsense, functional automobiles of high purpose. Let us hope this brand of gadgetry is not a hint that future Mercedes will feature video-game instrument panels and chattering yentas admonishing us to fasten our seatbelts."
I had to laugh at that. Looks like they were preparing to hate iDrive (well, COMAND anyway).
Airbags? You could get driver and passenger airbags in a 74-76 Cadillac. Then there's the computer controlled rear ABS, rear disc brakes in 77, EFI optional on the big blocks and standard on the 76-79 Seville, electronic trip computer displaying things like fuel economy, engine speed, coolant temp, etc, for 78.
Maybe they weren't the first but some things that I once considered late 80s innovations clearly happened earlier, and were widely available.
Stability debuted on S and CL class around 1996, but Cadillac had it the next year.
Saab and Volvo had the whiplash seats a few years back, don't know who was first.
GM was first with smart airbags in Cadillacs about 4 or 5 years back.
BMW was the first to debut an audio system with an input jack for iPods but now GM has the most models with this feature as far as I know.
TL was first with bluetooth as someone said.
I think MB was first with smart cruise control.
Don't know about head airbags or EBD.
Other significant technology would be magneride (GM), automatic high beams (GM, although I heard a crude version existed years ago), Limphome mode (no coolant in engine- GM), Onstar (GM and used by Lexus and Acura), ICCS (GM, now called VDIM by Lexus 6 years later), power liftgate (Ford), power folding rear seats (Ford), ventilated seats (Saab), adaptive seats (GM, since discontinued), dual depth airbags (GM, rollover canopy airbag system (Ford) and HUD (GM).
I don't think the SS badge should be on the Malibu or the Maxx, especially since it will be discontinued in 2008. Both cars are really bland to begin with and an SS badge doesnt change much. For a little more or maybe the same price, you could get a Maxima, Altima SE-R, Mazda 6 and maybe a V6 Charger.
I am looking forward to the Edmunds review on the SS TrailBlazer and Impala. Those cars have the juice and styling to justify the SS badge.
I hope they make a Silverado SS for the 2007 model. The Ram SRT10 needs competition.
Things like unleaded fuel, seatbelts, front-wheel drive, airbags, ABS, disc brakes, fuel injection, etc...these are innovation. Of course, some of these appeared on old American cars like the Cords and Caddys. Then they dissapeared, not to be seen again until we started looking at foreign cars. Wierd, huh? Of course our government did its best to defend the car companies against things like unleaded fuel, seatbelts, airbags, etc... Wonder what's next? Surely it is already out there, but we haven't really identified it/incorporated it into daily life.
Other significant technology would be magneride (GM), automatic high beams (GM, although I heard a crude version existed years ago), Limphome mode (no coolant in engine- GM), Onstar (GM and used by Lexus and Acura), ICCS (GM, now called VDIM by Lexus 6 years later), power liftgate (Ford), power folding rear seats (Ford), ventilated seats (Saab), adaptive seats (GM, since discontinued), dual depth airbags (GM, rollover canopy airbag system (Ford) and HUD (GM).
Don't forget four-wheel steering, which wasn't really first for GM, but their use of it on full-size trucks to aid maneuverability, towing and parking situations was innovative...but like night vision it never caught on and they discontinued it after the 2005 model year. You could almost make an argument that there are two stages of innovation. 1. Creating it in the first place 2. Incorporating it in a way that makes it sell (meaning affordable, user friendly, etc.)
One of my favorite technologies that never made it was the ATTS on Honda's last Prelude. You had to really drive the car aggressively to even notice it, but when you did (or at least when I did) it was very cool and really improved the car's handling. But most people never "got it" so it died. Though it's kind of risen from the ashes in the new all-wheel drive version of ATTS that's on the latest RL.
What are your thoughts on such a move? I know that CA is viewed as trend setting, but would it really hurt Nissan not to be there?
The world is definitely becoming less geographic dependent. Look at the ease of telecommuting today comparded to just a few years ago. I'm not sure if this concept can be applied to an entire automaker, but I do know that California isn't the most business friendly state in the union. Between cost of living and government interference there are plenty of reasons to take a company elsewhere.
Personally, if Nissan left and proved it was easy to function outside California I'd say, "more power to them."
You: Personally, if Nissan left and proved it was easy to function outside California I'd say, "more power to them."
Me: I agree. Nissan isn't stupid. How many young engineers can afford a house in So. Cal.? (Answer: none). Recruiting people to come to So. Cal. is a complete pain. I know. It's a very difficult place to get highly skilled labor to move to. It's a nice place where people in flyover land dream about on dull days, but have 'em visit and show them a tiny three bedroom in a so-so neighborhood for $800,000. That'll throw a little water on them. Sure, the entrenched Nissan employees will [non-permissible content removed] and moan, but they'll discover there are other places to live in the world. I lived in Calif. I now live where I have twice the house at a third the price and schools that are much better. Honestly, how many Edmunds employees can afford anything but rent a crappy one-bedroom in W. Hollywood?
I'm a "young engineer" in civil engineering in NorCal, where it's similar. Maybe just $600,000 for a tiny three bedroom house in this particular area, and no, I won't be able to afford that for a long time, if ever. But... if my company moved to Tennessee, I'd be hard pressed to leave. I'd like to know more about Tennessee, but its reputation and some experiences I've had away from the coasts (bigotry and small-town suspiciousness of anyone who looks or thinks differently - but only in about half the places I've lived in or visited) make me wary.
Not everyone would go with Nissan. That said, I don't think it would really hurt the company. Does their LA base even do that much?
My wifes job has moved us 3 times in the last 4 years (IN, OH, MO, & KS). Each move netted lots more cash and cheaper housing. Here in Wichita (hopefully we'll be moving again soon) 3000 sq feet of living space can be had for a min of $200K. I can put up with hicks and rednecks when it means money in my pocket and a mortgage that is a small fraction of our disposable income.
One thing I've learned with each move is that I've found something to like in every metropolitan area we've lived in (believe it or not Wichita has over 400k people so I guess it qualifies for metropolitan) Whether it's Chicago, Cleveland, Kansas City, or gasp Wichita.
It really depends on the city you live in. Ironically in our neighborhood, everyone is from somewhere else, so we don't have the "your ain't from around here is ya" attitude.
You don't mean to stereotype people in Kansas, did you
LOL, no not really. Just cowboys and airframe engineers / assemblers here in Wichita I was just making a general response towards Carlismo's thoughts on Tennessee
I lived in Valparaiso, IN (NW Indiana for those not familiar), and we lived in a town called Norton that was just outside of Akron in OH.
I always find it funny that people from the Chicago area make fun of those from Indiana. Obviously they never drove south on I55 or I57 to see the rest of Illinois LOL.
Everyone refers to Kansas as flat, but I don't think it's possible to be flatter than central Illinois.
Honestly, how many Edmunds employees can afford anything but rent a crappy one-bedroom in W. Hollywood?
Not nearly enough of them. I was just talking to another editor who lives in L.A. and he was wondering how much house he could get in Ventura County, where I live. His house is 1,300 sq. ft. and he thinks he could get about $800,000 (yes, you read that right) for it. He's just had another kid and -- suprise -- he'd like a bit more room. Of course, both of us have had our houses for a few years, meaning we're like far too many other people in California these days -- if we had to buy our own house at today's prices we couldn't afford it.
Anyway, I grew up in Denver and I continue to laugh at the "California or death" mentality of most residents here. The concept of another 49 states (many of which the residents - GASP - don't even really care about California) is foreign to them. "Everyone either lives here now or wants to someday" is what people actually think in this state. It's funny.
Between the climate and the established business base there are many reasons people live here (myself included), but if companies (i.e. Nissan) start leaving because of the many reasons NOT to live here (housing costs, traffic, pollution, horrid schools, even worse government policies and organization, etc.) then I can't say I'd blame them.
Nissan already has a large presence in a booming area SE of Nashville with their sprawling plant. It's an area with cheap workers to consume until their healthcare gets too expensive then spit them out. It's an area with a solid elite caste system. The city is metropolitan (probably not California, but that might be good) and has an aura that I like.
We have friends who moved from Ohio and live 2 miles from the Smyrna Nissan plant. The only negative I see to that part of Tennessee is the lack of ability to drive safely. Rear end and silly accidents are everywhere, especially during high traffic times.
Between the climate and the established business base there are many reasons people live here (myself included), but if companies (i.e. Nissan) start leaving because of the many reasons NOT to live here (housing costs, traffic, pollution, horrid schools, even worse government policies and organization, etc.) then I can't say I'd blame them.
As a resident of the West side of Los Angeles, I agree with everything you say. Housing costs especially are beyond reason. For example there are places in the West side of L.A. where small two bedroom one bath tract houses that were originally built for factory floor defense company workers, are now selling in the one million dollar range. It's insane!
Anyway, I grew up in Denver and I continue to laugh at the "California or death" mentality of most residents here. The concept of another 49 states (many of which the residents - GASP - don't even really care about California) is foreign to them. "Everyone either lives here now or wants to someday" is what people actually think in this state. It's funny.
I'm right with you, Karl. I really enjoyed living in California, but I enjoyed living elsewhere more (east coast, midwest). I found, however, Californians the most provincial people in the country -- and amazingly unknowledgeable about the rest of the country. And I wasn't wrong about real estate, was I? Starter homes -- tiny -- for $800,000! And, yup, most school districts are poor. No doubt, Calif. is living off its reputation from thirty to 60 years ago. Most newcomers were a bit shocked when they realized that LA wasn't like the TV shows...
Um, why wouldn't it just rely on the automatic climate control to bring the interior temp to, say, 70°?
Just maybe you're "abusing" or over-using the system, no?
It does rely on the auto-climate system. When you remote start the car the climate system is put into remote-start mode and it reads the interior temp of the vehicle. If the temp is less than a set amount, it turns on the heat full-blast, thinking its winter. Over-using? No, I just want to keep the car cool some times when I go into a store.
My suggestion is that they put an outside sensor somewhere other than right in front of the radiator so that it is not affected by the engine temp. Then they could have an accurate idea of what the driver wants the climate system to do.
excellent point about the 4WS on the GM trucks. A lot of new technology doesnt survive because it doesnt catch on or people dont want to pay for it. The reason ATTS failed is because most people probably never new the Prelude had this feature and it did little to help the sales of that car.
Personally I love it in Santa Monica. Sure I spend a fortune to have a smallish two bedroom apartment but my life isn't about roaming the expansive corners of “fly-over” acreage my rent money could purchase. In fact, I don’t even spend ‘most’ of my waking hours at home. That being the case, I care far more about where I spend most of my time then about having a walk-in closet and three car garage. And I know, before any of the cracks come, its not that I would rather be bumper to bumper on the 405 freeway. Santa Monica is one of the very best designed ‘walking cities’ I have been to on this side of the pond.
But back to the point that Nissan may move their design studio away from horribly expensive and small-minded California. Certainly there are many different kinds of people in every part of the world. But doesn’t it add something to Nissan to be very near, even in, the most culturally diverse place in the United States? How about to Edmunds.com?
Granted there are a lot of great companies that do business in California, but I doubt very much that is the cause of Santa Monica’s (in particular) diversity. I would put it the other way, I think many California business successes are in fact because they benefit from the Californian mentality. If Nissan decides to skip it then they may miss out on that in the long run.
Obviously Edmunds.com would lose most of its employees if it moved from California. Would you stay Karl? How about the effect that would have on being competitive in your marketplace, would any of those effects also transition to Nissan in the next 10 years?
GMs quadrasteer was marketed to the towing crowd. It offered a shorter turning radius and aided in towing stability when changine lanes and made it easier to back a trailer.
The problem was it was very expensive and many people probably didn't want the added complexity on their truck/suv.
i was referring more to the 4ws in the prelude. as far as the gm truck version goes it was expensive and not really needed. that crowd already know how to handle a trailer. do you see 18 wheelers with rear wheel steering? jmo.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
i was referring more to the 4ws in the prelude. as far as the gm truck version goes it was expensive and not really needed. that crowd already know how to handle a trailer. do you see 18 wheelers with rear wheel steering? jmo.
I agree. I to my boat quite a bit, and wouldn't pay extra for 4ws, just so I have to worry about something else to go wrong, though I know a few people that have it and they love it.
A friend of mine used to have a Prelude with 4ws and it was very cool. It definitely had a different feel to it. Once again, Preludes were expensive in their day. Probably just another neat idea that people probably don't feel the need to pay extra for.
Obviously Edmunds.com would lose most of its employees if it moved from California. Would you stay Karl? How about the effect that would have on being competitive in your marketplace, would any of those effects also transition to Nissan in the next 10 years?
Yeah, they would lose 'em. They wouldn't have any money to move!
Okay, I'm being harsh. And Santa Monica is a sweet place. You're right about walking, it's good there. There are, as you know, about a thousand homeless guys per mile, which makes a stroll on the beach kinda discouraging at times.
But here's the thing about So. CA that I find vaguely amusing. It's one of the worst places to actually drive -- the traffic is so bad almost all the time that most 'driving' is going 17 mph in neverending gridlock. And the roads are often in crap shape. There are a few mountain roads that are kinda quiet, but they are few and far between. Where I live now in sorta Nowheresville, I can drive as fast as I want, often, and not worry as much about cops or congestion.
And I'll stand by the fact that companies have a hard time recruiting new people to come to LA.
And, yes, Karl, we'll put you on the spot. Would you stay? As you know, the rest of the world is a big place
is ridiculous. I have found myself watching some of the shows on TV about flipping houses and I have seen quite a few dumps that are bought for $500,000 and sold for close to $1,000,000. Spend $1,000,000 out here you have yourself a mansion on close to 100 acres. We have 1800 sq ft on the main level of our house with a full basement that includes another 700 sq ft of living space (if we finish it). The house sits on an acre with a view of the trees and hills. I couldn't imagine giving that up to pay twice as much for half the house and land.
And, yes, Karl, we'll put you on the spot. Would you stay? As you know, the rest of the world is a big place
I actually pride myself on knowing the world is a big place. Makes me a rare commodity in California. :P
The question can't be as simple as "Would you leave California?" because I have several follow-up questions: 1. Where am I going? 2. What, if any, change in corporate policy/structure might accompany the move? 3. What, if any, change in pay accompanies the move? Yes, there are companies that pay less when they move to places with a lower cost of living, though I doubt Edmunds would do that. 4. How many of my team will be coming? 5. Is there a contingency plan for coming back if it doesn't work? etc., etc.
But I can tell you this, I definitely don't have the "California or death" mentality of most residents. If Edmunds decides to move to, say, Austin, Texas I'll be on the first flight to help scout locations. I'd have to do more investigation on somewhere like Tennessee, but it's very possible I'd happily come along if the company went there.
And actually, there are many parts of California that I would still like to stay in or near. While the housing cost ridiculousness is pretty much statewide, many of the other things are localised to SoCal (traffic, pollution, terrible schools, etc.). That's why I live in Ventura county and deal with the commute (which on the PCH isn't bad -- usually).
It's really the "Los Angeles Mess" that gets me down. BTW, this "mess" as I define it extends from the Mexican border on the south to Santa Barbara and Bakersfield on the north to Las Vegas on the nothwest to Pheonix on the east. Basically, anywhere I can't drive on the Wednesday before Thanksgiviing or the Sunday after Thanksgiving without feeling like shooting myself. Being in Ventura gets me as realistically out of, and away from, the mess as possible while still allowing me to work in Santa Monica. I got much more house than I would have in L.A., the local public elementary school is actually capable of teaching my kids, air pollution isn't an issue, and neither I, nor my kids, are exposed to angry homeless people ranting on the street corners in the middle of the night, or the constant honkings of road-raged Angelinos (both happened regularly right outside my condo in West L.A.).
It's also refreshing to take something like a Viper Coupe or Ford GT (both parked in my garage as I type this) out on the road and within 10 minutes be in a location where I can actually use their capabilities. As properly noted, the "car capital of the world" is one of the most un-car-friendly places on earth if you want to do more than 20 mph on a regular basis.
I've got a lot of respect for what you say, Karl. I used to live in Ventura County too. It's about the last nice place in So. Cal that's soooorta affordable (but that has changed too).The schools are decent there and the air is clean. And yes, the PCH is about the best artery for traffic. You obviously join the 10,000 Hispanics driving south from Oxnard/Ventura to Malibu who work as housekeepers/gardeners/cooks for all the rich folk in Malibu who can't bear to lift a finger. And, as you know, you get to see the homes with the Benz Geladenwagen, the BMW and, course, now the Prius parked in the drive. (They're environmentally attuned, don't you know
Anyway, I'm glad that I wasn't alone in finding it very odd that the supposed capital of car culture is just a miserable place to drive a car on most days. I can now fly in a jet halfway across the country to LAX in the same time it took me to travel from, say, deep in Orange County back to Ventura County. 100 miles. Four hours. That's in the middle of the day. That's normal, as you know.
Perhaps the LA scene also affects how you folks review cars. Maybe I'm off the mark, but when you sit in traffic going 7 mph for hours at a time, you notice much more the interior of the car. All this talk about 'soft touch' dashes and clever cutting-edge design and such sorta mystified me, because I touch my dash about once a month, when I dust it. But in LA, you get a looooot of time to study the interior of the car (and pound your head on the steering wheel). Obviously, wehre gridlock isn't an issue, a driver pays much less attention to the INSIDE of the car and focuses on how it drives.
Also, mileage is always poorer in So. cal cause you're either driving 7 mph or 85 mph. There is no middle ground. Your long-term test fleets probably suffer lower mileage than most people get away from LA.
This is probably all the same old junk you hear from others, but I'm now typing in my office with beautiful leaves on the trees turning color in my huuuuuuuge house with outstanding local schools and I don't have to worry about earthquakes, or wildfires, or even mudslides. So, yeah, Austin Texas or just about anywhere else sounds pretty good to me compared to LA.
So, how do the middle class afford to buy houses in So Cal? With our present incomes, there is no way my wife and I could afford a $800,000 house.
I have never been to Cali , but do not think I would like to live there based on the traffic and other problems. Seattle or Portland would be cool.
I really enjoy living in the Detroit suburbs, but lately we have been discussing the possibility of moving. The state of the American auto industry is pretty shaky. If GM ever files for bankruptcy this region is screwed (more than we are). We have talked about leaving before the ship sinks.
It's far out in the 'burbs. Not even the suburbs. I think they call where I live the exurbs or something. I'm even 20-30 minutes from the nearest Wal-Mart. I like it like that. LA is a nice place to visit. But i wouldn't want to live there. I used to be stationed in 29 Palms about 15 years ago. I'm sure it has changed a lot by now. But aside from the heat, I kinda liked the place.
It's really the "Los Angeles Mess" that gets me down.
The mess here in los Angeles also gets me down sometimes. However, L.A. does have some excellent features such as wonderful weather, beautiful beaches - and gorgeous L.A. Babes!
So sung the Mamas and the Papas about 40 years ago - do ya think they were prophets?
I did a reverse Karl .. I grew up in Ventura County, CA and moved to the Denver metro area about 12 years ago.
At the time that I moved, single family homes were going for $200K or so, which was completely out of my price range. I bought my first house in Colorado 5 years ago - 1600sf, 3bd, 2.5bath - nothing fancy, but accomodates me, my wife and my teenage stepdaughter just fine. Paid $160K for it then, it's worth probably $210-215K now. Nice appreciation, but nothing like what has happened in CA the last 5 years or so.
My folks have lived in Oxnard for 50-60 years ... mom came out when she was 9 (1947, from Tennessee) and Dad was stationed at the Navy base in the mid to late 50's. Growing up, it was a nice town to live it. Nowadays, I can't say the same thing. I went out for a visit in August and was surprised at how much more traffic there is.
Mom and Dad's house is close to 40 years old (1450sf, 3bd, 2bath) and is worth in the neighborhood of $500K. My sister and BIL live outside of San Diego. They bought a 3000sf house 2 years ago for just over $500K -- similar houses in their neighborhood are now selling for $950K. I have no idea how they do it ... my BIL is a comptroller and my sister does in-home child care, and they somehow manage the mortgage, a lease payment on a 530i and a payment on a GMC Yukon Denali (my sister told me the car payments alone are $1600/mo - yikes!).
I agree with Karl --- all of SoCal is just one big mall, freeway, parking lot or drive thru somethingorother. I cannot imagine anyone who moves to CA from any other part of the country (other than either Manhattan or Honolulu) who could adjust to the cost of housing there.
So, what do people do? They move farther away to be able to afford housing, but then they are looking at 60-90-120 minute commutes ... one way. Which, until recently, they were doing in their Explorers/Durangos/Tahoes/Grand Cherokees.
What exactly is it about CA that is so appealing to the rest of the country? I can't for the life of me figure it out.
What exactly is it about CA that is so appealing to the rest of the country?
I don't think it's as appealing to the rest of the country as some Californians think. California is about the last place I'd want to live. However, I'd make a sacrifice to be able to return to western Washington, mainly the area from Bellevue down to Olympia.
Just to avoid a little cold and rain. You gotta be kidding me. If I had that much money to spend on a home in Ga I'd have a 5000 sq ft mansion on 30-40 acres of privacy.
"You don't think it gets cold in California?? I have first hand experience that it can get plenty cold there in the winter. "
No kidding. I curse the gods every time I have to wear a sweater. And there was this one time I had to wear a "skarph," which appeared to be a Nordic torture device for keeping your neck muscles from relaxing.
Another reason for staying if you're already here... well, some of us just like our friends and family that much. And the fact that both members of any couple have to be working means that it's harder to coordinate a move. Never thought I'd be defending my way of life in this manner.
Other than the great year round weather, a unique thing about L.A. is that it is one of the few places in the world where you can swim in the ocean, ski in the snow, and visit the desert, all in the same day.
There are also many other year round activities that make it inviting. That's the reason I love it.
However, as has been mentioned, the price of real estate is truly bizzare. If I hadn't bought my house many years ago the only way I now could afford it would be to hit the lottery.
To keep this topic automotive related, yes the traffic is pretty bad.
Other than the great year round weather, a unique thing about L.A. is that it is one of the few places in the world where you can swim in the ocean, ski in the snow, and visit the desert, all in the same day.
Ah ha ha ha ha!
If I had a dollar every time I heard that line from someone in CA....
Yes, it was once technically possible to do that. But if you wanted to do that today, you'd spend 12 of your hours in traffic, twenty minutes in the ocean and 30 minutes on the ski hill.
I heard that line so often I would ask people: "But have YOU ever done that?" And people would sort of shuffle and look away. I, too, can swim in the ocean and ski in one day and be home at night. It's called flying on an airplane. It's about as easy to do as getting around LA.
Boy, all this topic talk sure makes me NOT miss LA. And this talk was originally about Nissan, right?
Anyone see today's Wall Street Journal about LAPD arresting pushy movie 'characters' who were hounding tourists in LA?
As to the fellow who said moving is harder because of both people working in a couple, it's true. CA is so expensive that almost no one I knew had a stay-at-home parent. Everyone was home at 8 p.m. at night in order to pay their mortgage and their crazy lease payments and on and on and on....
I think Nissan's head US honchos just want to cash out of their real estate and move on...
Comments
Remember, though, that this car has the trans mounted at the rear. Which means the part by your legs and under the shifter isn't the transmission. There's the engine, exhaust and torque tube, but the tranny is in the back.
I can pretty comfortably agree that the Z06's shifter doesn't feel as slick, or smooth, or even satisfying but one thing I've noticed is the following combinations:
1) a car can be cheap and slow and have a "good" shifter (any number of common 4 cylinder and V6 FWDs)
2) a car can be expensive and fast and have a "good" shifter (the GT, European imports, etc)
3) if a car is an excellent bargain for the straight line acceleration it provides, then it probably has a "mediocre" shifter (F-bodies, Corvette) or is missing a speed (like the Mustang GT)
I've always wondered how the 89-96 Corvette 6-speed (by the german ZF company) felt. Probably decent. Anyone remember?
I've never met an aftermarket alarm installation that didn't either have problems initially, fail to work correctly at some point, or cause a serious problem. If it can be provided by the OEM, so much the better. This goes for ANY electronic feature.
-Jason
Um, why wouldn't it just rely on the automatic climate control to bring the interior temp to, say, 70°?
Its got the heat on!
Just maybe you're "abusing" or over-using the system, no?
I have a May 1984 issue of Car and Driver sitting here and I read a review of the 1985 Mercedes-Benz 500SEC. The thing had like 184hp from its 5 liter SOHC V8, which is just bad (a 1985 Buick Electra had 125hp from its 2.8L pushrod V6 in the same issue and only 50lb-ft less torque!). But what I found relevant to this discussion was their critique of the audio system (rated at 6 watts/channel, by the way :surprise: ):
"The Becker, like so many contemporary car-stereo systems, looks as if it had been hijacked from the cockpit of a Boeing 767. Punching up the proper sequence of buttons necessary to find a station of one's choice quickly in a strange geographic area can require the patience and expertise necessary to arm and launch an intermediate-range missle. This is downright silly for a manufacturer that prides itself on no-nonsense, functional automobiles of high purpose. Let us hope this brand of gadgetry is not a hint that future Mercedes will feature video-game instrument panels and chattering yentas admonishing us to fasten our seatbelts."
I had to laugh at that. Looks like they were preparing to hate iDrive (well, COMAND anyway).
Maybe they weren't the first but some things that I once considered late 80s innovations clearly happened earlier, and were widely available.
Is the Malibu Ss / Malibu maxx SS something really special (especially given its V6's claimed to be the first pushrod engine to have VVT?)
Or are we just talking chrome plated, butt-broiling black interior badness here?
Saab and Volvo had the whiplash seats a few years back, don't know who was first.
GM was first with smart airbags in Cadillacs about 4 or 5 years back.
BMW was the first to debut an audio system with an input jack for iPods but now GM has the most models with this feature as far as I know.
TL was first with bluetooth as someone said.
I think MB was first with smart cruise control.
Don't know about head airbags or EBD.
Other significant technology would be magneride (GM), automatic high beams (GM, although I heard a crude version existed years ago), Limphome mode (no coolant in engine- GM), Onstar (GM and used by Lexus and Acura), ICCS (GM, now called VDIM by Lexus 6 years later), power liftgate (Ford), power folding rear seats (Ford), ventilated seats (Saab), adaptive seats (GM, since discontinued), dual depth airbags (GM, rollover canopy airbag system (Ford) and HUD (GM).
I am looking forward to the Edmunds review on the SS TrailBlazer and Impala. Those cars have the juice and styling to justify the SS badge.
I hope they make a Silverado SS for the 2007 model. The Ram SRT10 needs competition.
Don't forget four-wheel steering, which wasn't really first for GM, but their use of it on full-size trucks to aid maneuverability, towing and parking situations was innovative...but like night vision it never caught on and they discontinued it after the 2005 model year.
1. Creating it in the first place
2. Incorporating it in a way that makes it sell (meaning affordable, user friendly, etc.)
One of my favorite technologies that never made it was the ATTS on Honda's last Prelude. You had to really drive the car aggressively to even notice it, but when you did (or at least when I did) it was very cool and really improved the car's handling. But most people never "got it" so it died.
The world is definitely becoming less geographic dependent. Look at the ease of telecommuting today comparded to just a few years ago. I'm not sure if this concept can be applied to an entire automaker, but I do know that California isn't the most business friendly state in the union. Between cost of living and government interference there are plenty of reasons to take a company elsewhere.
Personally, if Nissan left and proved it was easy to function outside California I'd say, "more power to them."
Me: I agree. Nissan isn't stupid. How many young engineers can afford a house in So. Cal.? (Answer: none). Recruiting people to come to So. Cal. is a complete pain. I know. It's a very difficult place to get highly skilled labor to move to. It's a nice place where people in flyover land dream about on dull days, but have 'em visit and show them a tiny three bedroom in a so-so neighborhood for $800,000. That'll throw a little water on them. Sure, the entrenched Nissan employees will [non-permissible content removed] and moan, but they'll discover there are other places to live in the world. I lived in Calif. I now live where I have twice the house at a third the price and schools that are much better. Honestly, how many Edmunds employees can afford anything but rent a crappy one-bedroom in W. Hollywood?
Not everyone would go with Nissan. That said, I don't think it would really hurt the company. Does their LA base even do that much?
One thing I've learned with each move is that I've found something to like in every metropolitan area we've lived in (believe it or not Wichita has over 400k people so I guess it qualifies for metropolitan) Whether it's Chicago, Cleveland, Kansas City, or gasp Wichita.
It really depends on the city you live in. Ironically in our neighborhood, everyone is from somewhere else, so we don't have the "your ain't from around here is ya" attitude.
You don't mean to stereotype people in Kansas, did you?
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You don't mean to stereotype people in Kansas, did you?
In which parts of Indiana and Ohio did you live?
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I thought it was a telling slip.
I am sure he wasn't south of the river.
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LOL, no not really. Just cowboys and airframe engineers / assemblers here in Wichita I was just making a general response towards Carlismo's thoughts on Tennessee
I lived in Valparaiso, IN (NW Indiana for those not familiar), and we lived in a town called Norton that was just outside of Akron in OH.
I always find it funny that people from the Chicago area make fun of those from Indiana. Obviously they never drove south on I55 or I57 to see the rest of Illinois LOL.
Everyone refers to Kansas as flat, but I don't think it's possible to be flatter than central Illinois.
Not nearly enough of them. I was just talking to another editor who lives in L.A. and he was wondering how much house he could get in Ventura County, where I live. His house is 1,300 sq. ft. and he thinks he could get about $800,000 (yes, you read that right) for it. He's just had another kid and -- suprise -- he'd like a bit more room. Of course, both of us have had our houses for a few years, meaning we're like far too many other people in California these days -- if we had to buy our own house at today's prices we couldn't afford it.
Anyway, I grew up in Denver and I continue to laugh at the "California or death" mentality of most residents here. The concept of another 49 states (many of which the residents - GASP - don't even really care about California) is foreign to them. "Everyone either lives here now or wants to someday" is what people actually think in this state. It's funny.
Between the climate and the established business base there are many reasons people live here (myself included), but if companies (i.e. Nissan) start leaving because of the many reasons NOT to live here (housing costs, traffic, pollution, horrid schools, even worse government policies and organization, etc.) then I can't say I'd blame them.
We have friends who moved from Ohio and live 2 miles from the Smyrna Nissan plant. The only negative I see to that part of Tennessee is the lack of ability to drive safely. Rear end and silly accidents are everywhere, especially during high traffic times.
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As a resident of the West side of Los Angeles, I agree with everything you say. Housing costs especially are beyond reason. For example there are places in the West side of L.A. where small two bedroom one bath tract houses that were originally built for factory floor defense company workers, are now selling in the one million dollar range. It's insane!
I'm right with you, Karl. I really enjoyed living in California, but I enjoyed living elsewhere more (east coast, midwest). I found, however, Californians the most provincial people in the country -- and amazingly unknowledgeable about the rest of the country. And I wasn't wrong about real estate, was I?
Um, why wouldn't it just rely on the automatic climate control to bring the interior temp to, say, 70°?
Just maybe you're "abusing" or over-using the system, no?
It does rely on the auto-climate system. When you remote start the car the climate system is put into remote-start mode and it reads the interior temp of the vehicle. If the temp is less than a set amount, it turns on the heat full-blast, thinking its winter. Over-using? No, I just want to keep the car cool some times when I go into a store.
My suggestion is that they put an outside sensor somewhere other than right in front of the radiator so that it is not affected by the engine temp. Then they could have an accurate idea of what the driver wants the climate system to do.
But back to the point that Nissan may move their design studio away from horribly expensive and small-minded California. Certainly there are many different kinds of people in every part of the world. But doesn’t it add something to Nissan to be very near, even in, the most culturally diverse place in the United States? How about to Edmunds.com?
Granted there are a lot of great companies that do business in California, but I doubt very much that is the cause of Santa Monica’s (in particular) diversity. I would put it the other way, I think many California business successes are in fact because they benefit from the Californian mentality. If Nissan decides to skip it then they may miss out on that in the long run.
Obviously Edmunds.com would lose most of its employees if it moved from California. Would you stay Karl? How about the effect that would have on being competitive in your marketplace, would any of those effects also transition to Nissan in the next 10 years?
how many apporoach the limits of their vehicle intentionally?
The problem was it was very expensive and many people probably didn't want the added complexity on their truck/suv.
I agree. I to my boat quite a bit, and wouldn't pay extra for 4ws, just so I have to worry about something else to go wrong, though I know a few people that have it and they love it.
A friend of mine used to have a Prelude with 4ws and it was very cool. It definitely had a different feel to it. Once again, Preludes were expensive in their day. Probably just another neat idea that people probably don't feel the need to pay extra for.
Yeah, they would lose 'em. They wouldn't have any money to move!
Okay, I'm being harsh. And Santa Monica is a sweet place. You're right about walking, it's good there. There are, as you know, about a thousand homeless guys per mile, which makes a stroll on the beach kinda discouraging at times.
But here's the thing about So. CA that I find vaguely amusing. It's one of the worst places to actually drive -- the traffic is so bad almost all the time that most 'driving' is going 17 mph in neverending gridlock. And the roads are often in crap shape. There are a few mountain roads that are kinda quiet, but they are few and far between. Where I live now in sorta Nowheresville, I can drive as fast as I want, often, and not worry as much about cops or congestion.
And I'll stand by the fact that companies have a hard time recruiting new people to come to LA.
And, yes, Karl, we'll put you on the spot. Would you stay? As you know, the rest of the world is a big place
I actually pride myself on knowing the world is a big place. Makes me a rare commodity in California. :P
The question can't be as simple as "Would you leave California?" because I have several follow-up questions:
1. Where am I going?
2. What, if any, change in corporate policy/structure might accompany the move?
3. What, if any, change in pay accompanies the move? Yes, there are companies that pay less when they move to places with a lower cost of living, though I doubt Edmunds would do that.
4. How many of my team will be coming?
5. Is there a contingency plan for coming back if it doesn't work?
etc., etc.
But I can tell you this, I definitely don't have the "California or death" mentality of most residents. If Edmunds decides to move to, say, Austin, Texas I'll be on the first flight to help scout locations. I'd have to do more investigation on somewhere like Tennessee, but it's very possible I'd happily come along if the company went there.
And actually, there are many parts of California that I would still like to stay in or near. While the housing cost ridiculousness is pretty much statewide, many of the other things are localised to SoCal (traffic, pollution, terrible schools, etc.). That's why I live in Ventura county and deal with the commute (which on the PCH isn't bad -- usually).
It's really the "Los Angeles Mess" that gets me down. BTW, this "mess" as I define it extends from the Mexican border on the south to Santa Barbara and Bakersfield on the north to Las Vegas on the nothwest to Pheonix on the east. Basically, anywhere I can't drive on the Wednesday before Thanksgiviing or the Sunday after Thanksgiving without feeling like shooting myself. Being in Ventura gets me as realistically out of, and away from, the mess as possible while still allowing me to work in Santa Monica. I got much more house than I would have in L.A., the local public elementary school is actually capable of teaching my kids, air pollution isn't an issue, and neither I, nor my kids, are exposed to angry homeless people ranting on the street corners in the middle of the night, or the constant honkings of road-raged Angelinos (both happened regularly right outside my condo in West L.A.).
It's also refreshing to take something like a Viper Coupe or Ford GT (both parked in my garage as I type this) out on the road and within 10 minutes be in a location where I can actually use their capabilities. As properly noted, the "car capital of the world" is one of the most un-car-friendly places on earth if you want to do more than 20 mph on a regular basis.
I've got a lot of respect for what you say, Karl. I used to live in Ventura County too. It's about the last nice place in So. Cal that's soooorta affordable (but that has changed too).The schools are decent there and the air is clean. And yes, the PCH is about the best artery for traffic. You obviously join the 10,000 Hispanics driving south from Oxnard/Ventura to Malibu who work as housekeepers/gardeners/cooks for all the rich folk in Malibu who can't bear to lift a finger. And, as you know, you get to see the homes with the Benz Geladenwagen, the BMW and, course, now the Prius parked in the drive. (They're environmentally attuned, don't you know
Anyway, I'm glad that I wasn't alone in finding it very odd that the supposed capital of car culture is just a miserable place to drive a car on most days. I can now fly in a jet halfway across the country to LAX in the same time it took me to travel from, say, deep in Orange County back to Ventura County. 100 miles. Four hours. That's in the middle of the day. That's normal, as you know.
Perhaps the LA scene also affects how you folks review cars. Maybe I'm off the mark, but when you sit in traffic going 7 mph for hours at a time, you notice much more the interior of the car. All this talk about 'soft touch' dashes and clever cutting-edge design and such sorta mystified me, because I touch my dash about once a month, when I dust it. But in LA, you get a looooot of time to study the interior of the car (and pound your head on the steering wheel). Obviously, wehre gridlock isn't an issue, a driver pays much less attention to the INSIDE of the car and focuses on how it drives.
Also, mileage is always poorer in So. cal cause you're either driving 7 mph or 85 mph. There is no middle ground. Your long-term test fleets probably suffer lower mileage than most people get away from LA.
This is probably all the same old junk you hear from others, but I'm now typing in my office with beautiful leaves on the trees turning color in my huuuuuuuge house with outstanding local schools and I don't have to worry about earthquakes, or wildfires, or even mudslides. So, yeah, Austin Texas or just about anywhere else sounds pretty good to me compared to LA.
I have never been to Cali , but do not think I would like to live there based on the traffic and other problems. Seattle or Portland would be cool.
I really enjoy living in the Detroit suburbs, but lately we have been discussing the possibility of moving. The state of the American auto industry is pretty shaky. If GM ever files for bankruptcy this region is screwed (more than we are). We have talked about leaving before the ship sinks.
The mess here in los Angeles also gets me down sometimes. However, L.A. does have some excellent features such as wonderful weather, beautiful beaches - and gorgeous L.A. Babes!
I did a reverse Karl .. I grew up in Ventura County, CA and moved to the Denver metro area about 12 years ago.
At the time that I moved, single family homes were going for $200K or so, which was completely out of my price range. I bought my first house in Colorado 5 years ago - 1600sf, 3bd, 2.5bath - nothing fancy, but accomodates me, my wife and my teenage stepdaughter just fine. Paid $160K for it then, it's worth probably $210-215K now. Nice appreciation, but nothing like what has happened in CA the last 5 years or so.
My folks have lived in Oxnard for 50-60 years ... mom came out when she was 9 (1947, from Tennessee) and Dad was stationed at the Navy base in the mid to late 50's. Growing up, it was a nice town to live it. Nowadays, I can't say the same thing. I went out for a visit in August and was surprised at how much more traffic there is.
Mom and Dad's house is close to 40 years old (1450sf, 3bd, 2bath) and is worth in the neighborhood of $500K. My sister and BIL live outside of San Diego. They bought a 3000sf house 2 years ago for just over $500K -- similar houses in their neighborhood are now selling for $950K. I have no idea how they do it ... my BIL is a comptroller and my sister does in-home child care, and they somehow manage the mortgage, a lease payment on a 530i and a payment on a GMC Yukon Denali (my sister told me the car payments alone are $1600/mo - yikes!).
I agree with Karl --- all of SoCal is just one big mall, freeway, parking lot or drive thru somethingorother. I cannot imagine anyone who moves to CA from any other part of the country (other than either Manhattan or Honolulu) who could adjust to the cost of housing there.
So, what do people do? They move farther away to be able to afford housing, but then they are looking at 60-90-120 minute commutes ... one way. Which, until recently, they were doing in their Explorers/Durangos/Tahoes/Grand Cherokees.
What exactly is it about CA that is so appealing to the rest of the country? I can't for the life of me figure it out.
I don't think it's as appealing to the rest of the country as some Californians think. California is about the last place I'd want to live. However, I'd make a sacrifice to be able to return to western Washington, mainly the area from Bellevue down to Olympia.
Well you could start with the weather, or do you think we have Mediterranean climates in New Hampshire or Wisconsin?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
No kidding. I curse the gods every time I have to wear a sweater. And there was this one time I had to wear a "skarph," which appeared to be a Nordic torture device for keeping your neck muscles from relaxing.
Another reason for staying if you're already here... well, some of us just like our friends and family that much. And the fact that both members of any couple have to be working means that it's harder to coordinate a move. Never thought I'd be defending my way of life in this manner.
There are also many other year round activities that make it inviting. That's the reason I love it.
However, as has been mentioned, the price of real estate is truly bizzare. If I hadn't bought my house many years ago the only way I now could afford it would be to hit the lottery.
To keep this topic automotive related, yes the traffic is pretty bad.
Ah ha ha ha ha!
If I had a dollar every time I heard that line from someone in CA....
Yes, it was once technically possible to do that. But if you wanted to do that today, you'd spend 12 of your hours in traffic, twenty minutes in the ocean and 30 minutes on the ski hill.
I heard that line so often I would ask people: "But have YOU ever done that?" And people would sort of shuffle and look away. I, too, can swim in the ocean and ski in one day and be home at night. It's called flying on an airplane. It's about as easy to do as getting around LA.
Boy, all this topic talk sure makes me NOT miss LA. And this talk was originally about Nissan, right?
Anyone see today's Wall Street Journal about LAPD arresting pushy movie 'characters' who were hounding tourists in LA?
As to the fellow who said moving is harder because of both people working in a couple, it's true. CA is so expensive that almost no one I knew had a stay-at-home parent. Everyone was home at 8 p.m. at night in order to pay their mortgage and their crazy lease payments and on and on and on....
I think Nissan's head US honchos just want to cash out of their real estate and move on...