Karl's Daily Log Book

bigdaddycoats

So where does this vehicle fall in to line in terms of pricing? I am guessing that it will become the entry-level Volvo, sloting below the V40. I would guess a price starting around $20,000. This would cause quite a bit of overlap with the V40.

Most likely more of a competitor to the Golf and Mini than to the A3 and 1-series.

1487

Are there any plans to do a an update test for the Malibu SS in the near future? I'm interested to know if the changes have made the car sufficiently sporty to better compete with the Accord and Altima.

navigator89

Speaking of the Malibu, I dont know why Chevrolet bothered to make an SS Maxx if they plan to discontinue the Maxx after 2008. If you can get past the styling the Maxx is a pretty decent car with loads of value.

Like 1487 said, I too am waiting to hear the verdict on the latest Chevrolet SS models, the Impala, TrailBlazer, Monte Carlo and Malibu.

imidazol97

>styling the Maxx is a pretty decent car

I think the Maxx's styling is good.

navigator89

I raised the issue of styling because in the July 2004 of C&D they called it "bulldog butt".

I don't find the styling offensive, but you have to admit it is very plain inside and out. I like the Freestyle a lot better.

navigator89

I have a question, are you guys doing a follow up test on the Hummer H2 SUT anytime soon? I've seen quite a few and want to know what you guys think.

redmaxx

Are there any plans to do a an update test for the Malibu SS in the near future? I'm interested to know if the changes have made the car sufficiently sporty to better compete with the Accord and Altima.

I bet I can guess the answer to the last question.

redmaxx

Speaking of the Malibu Maxx, it was the segment leader in a customer satisfaction survey by Strategic Vision: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9652960/

Although Toyota and Honda were tops in satisfaction (no surprises here, it would take something major to change that I bet) GM led US automakers and had four segment leading vehicles.

editor_karl

I have a question, are you guys doing a follow up test on the Hummer H2 SUT anytime soon? I've seen quite a few and want to know what you guys think.

I don't think that's on the schedule right now. It's basically an open-bed H2, which itself is a pretty narrowly-focused/niche vehicle (more so now that gas has gone to $3-a-gallon and everyone has decided the H2 represents the "evils" of American excess).

Personally, I still like the idea of the H2 and the H2 SUT...but only for people who can actually use their abilities. The L.A. suburban moms who wanted one when they were "cool" 18 months ago, and basically used them to replace their Yukons for child carting duty, where highly derided by the mainstream press -- and deservedly so.

editor_karl

We are getting an Impala SS next Wednesday for a road test. I don't think a Malibu SS, or Malibu Maxx SS, is on the schedule right now, though I'm curious about both.

I'll check on their availability in the press fleet.

soapwaxsham

suit your argument.

You seem to want to make "Market impact" synonymous with sales or profits,
but it's much bigger than that.

The market is composed of several groups:
- auto buyers, their values and motivations for purchasing,
- the sources of opinions and information which impact buyers' decisions
- car manufacturers, their product decisions, production abilities, and marketing.

So a car which makes a (significant) market impact is one which substantially impacts buying decisions, perceptions, or of course racks up sales.

Referring (mostly) to the Canadian market

The Mazda 3 is the benchmark vehicle in the toughest segment in Canada - 16 to 23k
This is the car to start with if you are consider the focus, civic (05. 06), mini, imprezza, celica, golf, jetta, echo/yaris ( we don't have scion but xA xB tC ) cobalt, aerio, corolla, etc. it is competitive with all of those, and offers something that each of those doesn't.

It is the vehicle which took advantage if the mistakes honda made with the last civic. It is the car that the new civic has to be better than. It is improving the reputation Mazda established with the protege. It is so good that they need to build more factories to meet demand, and that is a very enviable financial benefit of a hit car.

The mini, regardless of exact sales number is a success, and it is significant for showing that there is a market / demand for a "premium compact".

The previous generation cavalier was not an impact car - the only reason to buy it was price.

The pontiac vibe is significant because it showed someone at GM can conceive of a properly targeted vehicle, even if they needed toyota to build it.

The Imprezza WRX (and Sti) are HUGE market impact cars because they raise the profile of every other Subarau model, not just the base Imprezza.

The Solstice is currently an impact vehicle because it is the first desirable pontiac since the Firebird (and the Matrix), and puts pontiac (and GM) in the spotlight. Based on the reviews, they got the design and the manufacturing mostly right. If GM gets reliability right as well, then every "Kappa architecture" car gets instant credibility.

kevm14

Oh yeah, the article we've been waiting for.

In short, the Z06 did every bit as good as I predicted it would. Like Karl said, it doesn't posess that exotic presence of the Ford GT, but for a 1/3rd the price, and with a best lap time only 0.30 seconds off the GT (on 1:32), only 0.2mph lower best lap average speed (on 73mph), faster 1/4 mile, better braking, higher lateral Gs, closest to 50/50 weight bias, a lot less weight, and the only car to have traction and yaw control, does it have to? They also didn't think the GT sounded as "racy" as the Corvette. I mean, come on. Cupholders, power seat, climate control. I do think the toggle switches in the GT are cool.

The Viper is essentially out-classed by both of them.

There are all kinds of good quotes from the article, but I'll hold off on that.

rorr

To paraphrase some stuff posted in the GTO vs. Mustang forum regarding the upcoming Shelby GT500:

$75k for a Z06??? Yeah, the car is nice, but it's STILL just a 'Vette......

kevm14

Do you anticipate the GT500 will bring value-leading performance to the table the way the Z06 did for the American exotics?

navigator89

Wait, why are you replying to my post, 2127? I never mentioned anything that you wrote about. All I talked about was the Hummer H2 SUT.

rorr

Depends on how you define 'value-leading performance'.

I think it's straighline performance will be similar to (if not slightly better than) a standard C6 Corvette (NOT a Z06!). It should be priced slightly under a C6 Corvette. For some, this (and a nice paint job) would be enough to say 'yes' to your question. In no way will it offer the bargain compared to IT'S competition that the Z06 offers.

But at the same time one wonders if the Ford GT is worth $75k more than the Z06, one could also wonder if the Z06 is worth $35 more than a Shelby GT500? That question can only be answered by the owner of the checkbook.

All I'm saying is the GT500 shouldn't be dismissed with "....it's still just a 'Stang" for the same reasons the Z06 shouldn't be dismissed with "...it's still just a 'Vette".

editor_karl

I agree that both cars offer incredible bang-for-the-buck in terms of performance.

The difference is that I really-really like the basic Mustang, so I really-really-really like the idea of a hot-rodded version with enhanced styling (and an upgraded interior, which by the way is maybe the biggest improvment over the base Mustang).

The base Corvette? A very capable car for the money. But not a car that "speaks" to me the way a performance car has to -- at least if I'm going to be passionate about it. The hot-rodded version of a Corvette? I'm expecting it to be an even more capable car for the money, and the Automobile article backs that up. Will it speak to me? I hope so. The advanced materials, light weight and excellent balance suggest it certainly could/should speak to me, but I'm not holding my breath. Here's hoping I'm pleasantly surprised.

editor_karl

Honda Civic Si
Honda Civic Hybrid (the new one) vs. Toyota Prius shootout (this should be very interesting)
Lincoln Zephyr
Hyundai Azera and Accent
Jeep Commander
Corvette Z06 (full test before the comparison)
Nissan Xterra
Buick Lucerne

navigator89

Looking forward to them, especially the Lucerne and Zephyr as both are important for their brands.

Question - what happened to that Tacoma vs. Frontier comparison test that you guys did a while back? When will it be posted?

kevm14

But at the same time one wonders if the Ford GT is worth $75k more than the Z06, one could also wonder if the Z06 is worth $35 more than a Shelby GT500?

Well it's pretty simple, at least from my perspective. From a performance standpoint, the Z06 offers a substantial upgrade from a GT500 for "only" $35k more, while the Ford GT offers a negligible if invisible performance upgrade from a Z06 for a significant $75k more. But again, that's just my perspective. The GT definitely looks cooler. But it almost doesn't matter. The GT is a hand built waiting list car. The Z06 is available from a dealer to presumably whoever can write the check.

rorr

True. However, I'll put it to you that when folks are dropping $75k and up (sometimes WAAAAAY up) for a performance car, how 'minor' the performance upgrade is can be immaterial. They aren't necessarily buying it for the spec sheet. They're buying it for what it can do......and how it makes them feel to drive it. And a big part of that is styling. And no matter how much performance you pack into a Z06, it's still 'just' a 'Vette.

Besides, how often would one really USE the performance difference between a Shelby GT500 and a Z06 Corvette? (dang it, that hole in traffic isn't quite big enough for me to pass this RV with my Shelby; if I only had a Z06......)

BTW - one can take delivery of a Ford GT, right now, no waiting, for essentially list. They ARE on the market. How many Z06's are available right now for delivery?

carlisimo

I have a theory about the Z06's unsupercoolness.

Performance versions of cheaper cars, where the difference is pretty big, are cool. Civic type-R - very cool. Mustang Cobra - very cool. M3 - very cool. But the effect sorta wears off when you start with something overwhelming. 911 Carrera S - not all that much cooler than the plain Carrera. Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale - also very cool, but so's the base model.

The Corvette is hardcore enough that people don't really feel like it NEEDS a faster version. It's a relatively uncompromised sports cars, and you can't say that about the cheaper cars (even the 3-series).

kevm14

They aren't necessarily buying it for the spec sheet.

I agree, and definitely not all buyers of a GT are cross shopping a Z06. Some are, but I can't say how many. I mean, the GT brings in would-be Italian exotic buyers. To those folks, the GT is its own bargain. Perspective is very important in this segment. To regular folks, the Z06 is, I think, the clear choice. To lucky people like Karl, the GT is the hands down choice :P

one can take delivery of a Ford GT, right now, no waiting, for essentially list. They ARE on the market. How many Z06's are available right now for delivery?

That occured to me after I replied. I guess I've seen quite a few for sale. I don't know when the Z06 will be available. My cousin in NC swears he saw one the other day (he has a C5 Z06).

kevm14

I see what you're saying, but the difference between the Z06 and base C6 is not like a 911 Carrera S vs regular Carrera. It's like 911 Carrera vs 911 Turbo. And who doesn't like the 911 Turbo?

The Corvette is hardcore enough that people don't really feel like it NEEDS a faster version

But the base model isn't a kill-all-comers type of car. It was always a good value, at least. The Z06, on the other hand, can take on ANY 4 wheeled production vehicle you can come up with (beat it or trace it around the track lap after lap), at any price. For $65k, I think that has a definite appeal. For the Z06, that IS the selling point. To those who don't care about that, it wouldn't even have been an initial consideration, so what's the problem?

editor_karl

Question - what happened to that Tacoma vs. Frontier comparison test that you guys did a while back? When will it be posted?

Being finished as I type this. This is going to be a great test because we have two versions of each truck -- one street oriented and one off-road oriented. We basically study the effect of getting the "off-road package" for each truck on ride quality, fuel mileage, and performance (on road and off road).

Some killer video of the trucks in off-road action, too.

Expect it in the next two weeks or less.

editor_karl

Both rorr and kevm14 are making great points. Is the GT500 a substantial step up from a regular GT model? Undeniably. But is the Z06 a phenomenally capable car for a "mere" $65-$75K? You bet!!

As someone who theoretically is in the market for these types of cars -- I have to say theoretically because, despite owning a GT, I've spent 36 years being a total spendthrift/value-for-the-money guy, so I still can't comprehend actually being an exotic car buyer/owner...

Anyway, I've always been a fan of the Corvette's bang-for-buck, even though I personally couldn't see myself buying one (even if/when I became that type of customer). The new Z06 is basically the ultimate bang-for-the-buck car.

Put it this way, when I first called my Ford contacts about getting on the GT "list" it was 24 hours after the car had been announced for production (February 2002). Obviously the car's performance/value wasn't even a consideration for me -- neither the pricing nor the performance had been remotely confirmed at that point. I wanted the car because of the heritage it represented, plus it was basically the coolest-looking car I'd ever seen. Then (literally years later) came the car's official performance specs and the numbers generated by magazine tests. At that point I was like, "Wow, not only is this car cool for all the reason I really car about, it's also going to be one of the four or five fastest production cars ever created." I know it sounds glib, but I really didn't care that much about the car's bottom line capabilities. That wasn't why I wanted it. When it turned out to be capable of 11-second quarter miles and a top speed over 200 mph, it was all pure bonus to me.

But, now comes the Z06, which offers the same level of performance for roughly half the price. Do I find that amazing? Yes!! The car is now in the same rarefied air as the Ford GT, Ferrari Enzo, Porsche Carrera GT and McLaren SLR (the McLaren F1 and now the new Bugatti Veyron are on yet another plain, but for $1 million plus, and with less than 300 produced of each, I don't really car about them).

However, remember all those original reasons I got excited about the GT ( world-class heritage, superb styling, exotic design by a domestic automaker)? The Z06 didn't (and doesn't) offer any of those, IMHO.

Of course, now will come all the responses of:
1. How can you say the Corvette doesn't have any heritage? It's been "America's sports car" for 50 years!!
2. How can you say it doesn't have exotic design? Half the body panels are made of carbon fiber!!
3. How can you say it's got poor styling. I think it's beautiful!

I could go into things like not ending Ferrari's domination at Le Mans, not having a mid-engine design and high-quality components, or not having intuitive steering/shifting response (something I simply can't overlook when the MSRP passes about $35,000). And, well, styling is highly subjective, so I don't care to try and explain my disappointment with the C6's (and C5's) styling. And I haven't driven the car yet (we get one this Friday) so maybe it will surprise me, but if you read the Automobile story they say all the expected things about the Z06 (clunky shifter, low-grade interior materials, steering is adequate at best, but still not up to GT -- or even Viper -- standards).

Plus there's the whole story behind the new GT's development, which happened in record time, under very difficult conditions, and still met or exceeded the engineer's original benchmarks. There's plenty of documentation on this, including the Special Report I did a few years ago: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=100499

Let's put it this way. The new Z06 is a great bargain. If you don't care about the things I care about, you should buy one.

kevm14

I pretty much agree. I'm just thrilled because it's such a great package. And competition can only be good for the consumer.

They did say the steering livened up under track conditions, at least.

explorerx4

hch vs. prius 'shootout'? isn't it more like a tazer duel?

editor_karl

Think Energizer bunner vs. "The Copper Top"

editor_karl

You guys may have already seen this (it went up late Monday), but I wanted to make sure.

Interested in any comments. Be sure to check out the video on each page.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=107485

kevm14

I did not see it! But I just read through it and watched all the videos. Now I'm convinced I want your job

But seriously, an article like this has been a long time coming. I've played Gran Turismo (a much older PS/1 version) once, but I used to be a huge fan of realistic driving simulators. My first love was Car and Driver/EA's original Need for Speed. I bought my Thrustmaster T2 steering wheel and pedals and had a ball. Not a driving simulator but it was sort of the start of driving games as far as I was concerned. A few other games I played along the way were Viper Racing, which featured the ability to use an analog clutch, Mercedes Benz Truck Racing and Grand Prix Legends. Of course nothing in the gaming world even compares with a good stomp down a good twisty road, let alone a day at the track.

So obviously I am a huge fan of driving in real life, too. I can appreciate the article's intent.

Interesting selection of cars. They all deserve respect, except for the RX-8. I still don't really like that one :surprise:

Is there a C6 Z06 in GT4? Ok nevermind.

As far as the findings in the article, I can fully understand that real life driving at 8 to 10 tenths on a track will essentially make you drive more conservatively. Especially at those speeds on that track. That's why people like autocross, since you can really push the limits at low speeds and at worst, take out a couple of cones. Of course, I don't really consider autocross that fun, but one look at the cars in my profile would clear that right up.

I'll tell you one thing - the article makes me yearn even more for a track experience like that. On a weekly basis all I really get is entrance ramps and exit ramps. It's sad really.

redmaxx

I've played Gran Turismo (a much older PS/1 version) once

I did too and thought it was really good. I think I've also played GT2 or 3, but I'm not sure. I have an Xbox and am really into Forza Motorsport. That game is top notch! The driver AI (real AI, not the fake stuff in Need for Speed) is excellent, the graphics are great and the gameplay is the best I've ever experienced.

nitromax

Isn't "real A.I." an oxymoron?
(real Artificial Intelligence)

:-)

navigator89

"I have an Xbox and am really into Forza Motorsport. That game is top notch! The driver AI (real AI, not the fake stuff in Need for Speed) is excellent, the graphics are great and the gameplay is the best I've ever experienced."

I have to agree you with you there. I play Forza Motorsport, and it is one of the best car games ever made. I used to be a big fan of PGR2, but I was sold on Forza. 231 cars, ranging from Accord/Camry coupes to actual racing cars. The graphics are amazing, and the AI is pretty challenging. Also, you can figure the game to your driving style by swicthing on/off STM, ABS or TCS and suggested line. Keeping them off increases winnings. The damage is very realistic as well, with even wheel alignment. And also you can increase power on your car's engine with exhausts, ignition, turbocharger, superchargers, intercoolers.

I could go on and on.........

Redmaxx, which level are you in the game, and how do you play, with or without driver aids?

kevm14

Viper Racing from 1997 had a few pretty impressive features that made it advanced for its time. First, your opponents on the track didn't just fly around the track. They actually had to input steering, braking and gas and be subjected to the same physics model as you, which was pretty amazing I thought.
Second, you had the ability to change toe, camber, spring rate, shock damping, anti-roll, ride height and downforce (all front and rear independent), which means you could tune understeer, oversteer and general total handling traits. The game also did full simulation of ABS, traction control and yaw control. It taught me how yaw control works by watching the wheels that were starting to lock up. Completely out-dated but gave me hours of fun a day for a few years.

qbrozen

I'm a huge fan of the Gran Turismo series. I have every one and have played them all for many many hours.

Having said that, was this article even necessary? Is it only painfully obvious to me that a video game is not yet able to come close to the real world due to the lack of forces on the body that are crucial in telling you what is happening with your car? (not to mention the fear factor involved.) I can't have been the only one who already knew this without having to create a situation in which to test this.

Is it entertaining reading nonetheless? Sure. Was it at all revealing or educational? No.

redmaxx

Isn't "real A.I." an oxymoron?
(real Artificial Intelligence)

Games like NfS supposedly had AI but their IQ was all of about 30 points. That is what I mean by fake AI.

redmaxx

Redmaxx, which level are you in the game, and how do you play, with or without driver aids?

I can't remember off-hand, I have yet to purchase it (I had it for a while from Blockbuster but I haven't had the time lately). I need to though . IIRC, I tried both with and without aids. I can do it without aids for the lower and some medium difficulty but as things heat up, I'm just not that good yet.

navigator89

I use driver aids only for competitve racing where the slightest mistake will prevent you from winning the race. On free runs and time trials I switch of TCS, ABS and STM. Generally those features help you the most when driving ultra powerful cars or the muscle cars, who have really bad brakes and skid like crazy.

The Endurace races in Forza, for anyone who has played them are insane. 30 or minutes spent racing the same track in the same car, with a pitstop now and then! I've only beat one so far, with the 2004 Pontiac GTO.......

editor_karl

One of the benefits of being on the North American Car and Truck of the Year jury is that I can have a second chance to drive certain cars. We had a GXP a few months ago, but I was gone when it was here, so I never even sat in it. But it's on the list of candidates for North American Car of the Year, so GM gave us another one and I drove it home last night.

I don't have time to do an in-depth review, so I'll stick with themes.

Everything from the interior quality to the steering feel to the cool features to the exterior design is a marked improvement over GM sedans of just a couple years ago. It is very clear to me that the company is trying to address their long-standing issues, and doing so with some success.

That said, here's the problem: This car is still just barely keeping pace, not setting it. As I drove it in this morning my thoughts on why I wasn't blown away by this car crystalized. Three years ago, when Chrysler was still selling the LH cars, this car could have vied for segment benchmark in terms of "Big American car with performance intentions." The things I've already mentioned (steering response, interior quality, cool features, etc.) are really good...by 2002 standards. For instance, the car has plenty of power and torque, but there's noticeable torque-steer when you punch it at low speeds. In 2002 that was unavoidable in this segment because all cars in this segment were front-wheel drive. Now they aren't. The paddle shifters on the steering wheel? Also very cool. And in 2001 Pontiac could have really made a statement with them. Today? They have pretty much moved from "cool extra feature" to "expected if you want to be taken seriously as a performance sedan."

I was officially disappointed by the following aspects:
1. Suspension tuning -- it's just too soft. When I took it on my favorite canyon road it was regularly maxing out on the suspension travel to the point where it was upsetting the chassis during mid-corner bumps. I've driven enough cars (the Dodge Charger, Ford Fusion, any Honda sedan) to know that you can tune a car for good ride quality and still have effective suspension damping over a twisty road with occasional bumps. This car doesn't have that.
2. Cruise control stalk has a flash seam in the plastic on the back side -- right where your finger sits when using the stalk. Come on GM.
3. Small seats -- I didn't notice this at first, but when I sat up straight in the seats (something I don't do enough these days...) I noticed that my shoulders basically had no support because they were taller/wider than the seat back. I don't remember the last time I had that sensation when sitting in a modern car. The seat (or at least the seat back) literally felt like a 7/8ths version of a real seat back. The bottom felt OK, and I really like the suede inserts.
4. Heads-up Display -- Love this, and this feature does still count as a cutting edge toy...but if you have polarized sunglasses they completely block out the display during the day.

So, just like with Chevy Malibu, Cadillac CTS and, to some extent, the Solstice (if that car had hit before the all-new MX-5 it probably would have won our comparsion test), these are all varying levels of "fine" cars. But they were/are all about two-to-three years late to the market, and they aren't setting new industry/segment standards, which is what GM needs to do right now.

Hey, at least the Z06 seems to be setting some standards. One of the other editors drove it yesterday at a press event and says it's awesome. We get one delivered here tomorrow.

rayainsw

"That said, here's the problem: "

Thanks for posting your impressions.
- Ray
2005 GXP w/5,000+ miles . .

nortsr1

"Heads up display and Polarized sunglasses."
Karl, I wear poarized sunglasses (prescription) and I notice that on almost every type vehicle I drive, so that is probably a wash.

imidazol97

>display and Polarized sunglasses

This was sounding like it was stated as another GM flaw, but it's actually going to occur with any HUD reflected off the glass at an angle. Only the light with oscillation perpendicular to the angle of reflection will be reflected, and that will be just like light reflected off a horizontal road surface and will be blocked by the vertical polarization of the sunglasses. My HUD is killed by my lens too. So I bought regular clipons that aren't polarized.

rorr

"This was sounding like it was stated as another GM flaw, but it's actually going to occur with any HUD reflected off the glass at an angle."

Okay, I'm going to plead COMPLETE ignorance here, but which other mainstream manufacturers (besides GM) offer HUD's?

bigdaddycoats

I am glad to hear the GXP is getting your vote;)

So, what vehicle is going to get your vote? Or is that a secret?

Just curious - how many people get to vote on this?

theman123

Hello Editor_Karl, I hate to change the subject I love the Ford GT. Did edmunds ever get a chance or are you ever going to drive the 2006 Mercury Milan ? I know it's the twin of the Ford Fusion. Your full test review of the Ford Fusion was very informative. However, I would very much like to know what Edmunds thinks of the 2006 Mercury Milan. Also, I've noticed there is a forum called " The Camry vs Accord Vs Sonata Vs Fusion" why not include the Milan in there as well ? it's in the same price range and is very similar to all the other cars in the class. Thats all for now

Thanks

rayainsw

"2. Cruise control stalk has a flash seam in the plastic on the back side -- right where your finger sits when using the stalk. Come on GM. "

Small point, I suppose, but I checked this very carefully after reading your comment here.

My GXP (2005) has no seam anywhere that I can feel on this control - or any other steering column mounted stalk.

- Ray
Acknowledging that THIS won't change anyone's mind . .

imidazol97

>Cruise control stalk has a flash seam in the plastic on the back side

Sounds like a warranty replacement item to me.

rlsedition

I read your test comments on the GXP, but I think you are missing something here. This car was designed to be an affordable performance sedan people could drive everyday, everywhere. That torque steer you complain about (and its not bad at all) is a result of the FWD powertrain which, since the majority of weight is over the drive wheels, works fine in the snow and ice so prevalent in the upper 1/3 of the US these next several months. Even the Potenza tires were designed to be effective in bad weather as well as in dry conditions. The standard Stabilitrak/Traction Control is tuned to allow aggressive driving in the dry yet save the car if it wanders off the desired course in slippery conditions.

I'd like to see the Charger R/Ts and 300Cs get around in snow this winter. Actually, I have - last winter the RWDs crawled around in those conditions unless they fit another set of winter-specific tires on the car, which most people won't/don't do these days. The GXP I drove had no problems at all in Michigan winter weather just as it was delivered.

Perhaps Pontiac didn't make the point strong enough about GXP inclement weather driving to the media. And, yes, I would have liked to bring this car to market sooner, but we did it as soon as GM management and powertrain availability would permit.

For the average family, the GXP represents a tremendous performance bargain. Where else can you get this much performance/features for about $27k loaded? And you don't have to put it up on blocks in the garage in the winter.

nortsr1

Well, I really like your explanation (even though I don't know what it really means) (just kidding) and like I said in my "polarized" post, it's a wash.