Karl's Daily Log Book

navigator89

"Another thing to consider is that HP isn't the only measure of performance. The HHR may have enough HP on paper but may fall short at actually putting HP to the wheels."

Very true. Raw HP isn't always enough. Engine performance depends on a lot of factors, like transmission, gearing, power-weight ratio, torque to name a few.

carlisimo

Karl, I remember you called the 2nd-gen Miata a poseur, and all we talked about after that was how you spell that word.

What did you not like about the car?

I drove my friend's '99 on Thursday, and well... after all my love for hatchbacks with decent backseats and cargo space, I simply must have a Miata (but would spend too much time saving up if I wanted a new one). At the moment, I doubt anything other than finances will deter me, but I'd still like to hear criticisms of it.

ateixeira

Good one.

-juice

editor_karl

I've never called the Miata a poseur (or even a poser). I think you (or someone) saw that reference in the Miata First Drive that was done by Rich Homan:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=106311
Conclusion
Sixteen-year-olds can be so adorably fickle. Hence, we'll respect Mazda's wish that we not call the 2006 MX-5 a "Miata." I suppose that the nicknames of youth should never really be carried into young adulthood — just ask my Uncle Skipper. But it seems that many cars, like people, let the best of themselves slip away as they grow up. I dug the first-generation MX-5 Miata but, frankly, the second generation didn't do much for me — it was a poser and a business proposition, kind of like every generation of post-'60s Ford Mustang. But the new Mazda MX-5, like the new Mustang, has taken a long look in the mirror and remembered itself and how much fun it used to be. A little older, a little more mature, a lot more seasoned, and still a blast.

I never asked Rich specifically about the "poser" term, but we talked about the car after I drove the new one and I remember his comment was, "This one is much better. The second gerenation car sort of lost its way." I honestly haven't driven enough Miatas (or MX-5s ) to appreciate the sublteties, but Rich drove the first generation car when he worked at Road and Track, so I think he can. We had a second generation Miata in our long-term fleet back when it was new in 1999. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=44032/pageId=842

I always thought it was fun to drive, but I also hated the cramped interior. I'm only six-feet tall, but I never really felt comfortable in the car. It just always felt like a toy to me...which I guess is the point for the target audience. The new one is much better on interior space, but the Solstice is better still while providing the same level of performance and better ride quality. I'm not a huge fan of the new car's looks, either -- or the second-generation's for that matter. I still think the original Miata is the best looking one. I know pop-up headlights have officially been dubbed "passe" by the automotive community, but I'm just rambunctious and stubborn enough to still like them, dammit!

carlisimo

Oh ok, my bad. Maybe I saw it in the brief Rich Homan thread then.

I'm 5' 7" and smallish, and the ergonomics are perfect for me. The size too; I once got lost inside an Altima.

It seems practical enough... my friend had been temporarily relocated from his usual Vegas office to the company's Seattle office, so he packed his bags and drove (with the hardtop on). I saw him on his drive back, with his trunk full of worldly possessions. It still felt so powerful coming out of turns! I'm easy to please, and I'm not ready to "grow up" and get an e36 BMW instead.

I've never been so excited about a car after driving one.

1487

Any chance of a G6 vs Fusion vs accord comparison in the near future?

Also, I think I asked before about how long term vehicles are selected. I notice that Edmunds keeps a disproportionately high number of imports in their long term test fleets and I dont get it. What is the point in testing long term Accords, Camrys and Civics? It is stupid to test cars that are known for reliability and in many cases are barely changed from their predecessors. I can't believe that you guys got a long term base model Jetta. That car isnt exciting, nor is it a potential class leader so I don't see the appeal. Getting an '06 Civic makes little sense to me either. What is the point?

I think you should get a long term Fusion, Impala LTZ, DTS and possibly HHR. I know you guys are in California so you are somewhat out of touch with the reality of how many imports are sold vs. domestics, but you have to try and remember that people all over the US read edmunds and some of us want to read about new non-import models and see how they hold up over time.

1487

"We reported on our experience for one year, had the usual issues with recalls and rattles, and we know the next several years would have been more of the same. "

What is that supposed to mean exactly? Are you saying that every GM product is prone to recalls and rattles and thus it's pointless to bother testing them? How can Edmunds verify whether or not the bIg 3 are making progress if you dont want to use their models in your long term test fleet because you assume in advance that they are going to be problematic. Squeaks and rattles are common amongst many brands of cars based on the long term reviews I've read over the years. In spite of all the technology we have in today's cars it appears that the rattle has yet to be eliminated, not ever from imports.

Also, wasnt the Civic Hybrid the first "functional" hybrid? It was out before the Prius as far as I know. Let's not forget that Toyota had a first generation Prius that few in the press cared about because gas was cheap earlier in the decade.

In regards to the Pilot, I remember that incident and I remember you guys being somewhat dissapointed but I also remember that the incident was treated as an anomoly and something that shouldn't be held against the Pilot or Honda because aside from that, no one has problems with Hondas.

1487

I looked at the long term vehicle list after my last post. 3 domestics out of 20+ vehicles in the fleet. Two Fords and one Dodge, unless I missed something. That seems a little lopsided to me. I'm not sure if that means that there are no compelling American cars on the market, or if Edmunds feels their readers aren't interested in reading about American cars.

stever

Someone has to do it. :-) Usual disclaimers about my counting.

There are 46 makes under the Edmunds New Cars tab - toss in Olds for #47.

Of these 47 makes, 14 are domestics (counting that orphaned Olds as a make).

There are 21 foreign makes represented in the Long Term test results and 10 domestic makes (one for that Olds).

There are 54 long term test drive reviews for the 21 foreign makes and 19 for the ten domestic makes. The Pilot review seems to be listed twice so I only counted it once.

Of the 8 rare/exotic makes, only a Ferrari has been in the fleet. (I didn't count Porsche or Lotus in that group). The non-represented domestics are Buick, HUMMER, Mercury, and Pontiac. Notable foreign makes missing include Mercedes (there's a story there somewhere), Porsche, Saab and Suzuki.

Those are some raw numbers -- massage them as you wish. :shades:

Sorry, I don't have the energy to break them down by type - minivans seems to be well represented though.

Steve, Host

editor_karl

Great analysis Steve.

One more point: Long-term tests don't make sense in the middle of a product cycle, because by then most people will already know everything they need to about a car. So we only do long-term tests on BRAND NEW designs.

Anyone wanna take a guess at the "redesign" rate between the domestics and imports? Here's a hint: Cavalier, Astro, Ranger, Taurus

FYI, we have a Mercedes C-Class (with the new engine) on order for the long-term fleet. Hopefully it will be here soon.

imidazol97

>19 for the ten domestic makes.

What are the 19 domestics?

I go to road tests and find:
First drives
Full tests
Comparison tests
Long term tests

Would you list the full groups that you discussed earlier?

stever

I went to this link and browsed by Make.

I was too busy comparing the Manning brothers' stats to look beyond the Long Term Tests list. :-)

Steve, Host

redmaxx

What do you mean mini-vans are represented well. You guys haven't even done an initial test on the new Uplander, let alone an full test or long term test. The closest you came was a review of the Saturn version, but Chevy makes up the majority of GM's sales by and large. Yet the Chevy model was totally ignored. You've long-term tested BOTH revisions of the Honda Odyssey. Talk about slanting! Not a single long-term test of any of GM's minivans.

redmaxx

Karl made a point about how long-term tests are linked to product redesign cycles. Well, if there were ever a Chevy that could and should be tested long-term right now it is the Equinox. It matches right up to the CR-V and RAV4 and is a new design. Better test it now before it gets too "old". It makes me wonder because this model has been out for a little while now and yet, it hasn't been tested long-term. However, you guys snapped a new style Odyssey right up.

imidazol97

List
1 : 2005 Subaru Legacy GT
2 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid
3 2006 Honda Ridgeline
4 2005 Toyota Camry Solara Convertible
5 2005 Land Rover LR3
6 2006 Volkswagen Jetta
7 2001 BMW 530i
8 2001 Ferrari 550M Maranello
9 2005 Ford Mustang
10 2005 Toyota Tacoma
11 2005 Audi A4 2.0T
12 2005 Nissan Frontier 4x4 Nismo
13 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid
14 2005 BMW X3
15 2004 Volvo XC90 T6
16 2005 Scion tC
17 2004 Mitsubishi Endeavor
18 2003 Lexus SC 430
19 2006 Lexus RX 400h
20 2005 Kia Spectra5

***************************

Two I recognize as American brands:
Ford Escape - Hybrid
Ford Mustang
Neither a car for ordinary people over 40 looking at sedans.
Has a Ford Escape nonhybrid been long-term tested?

imidazol97

1 2006 Honda Civic Date Posted 2005-09-22
2 2006 Aston Martin V8 Vantage Date Posted 2005-09-19
3 2006 Dodge Ram Mega Cab Date Posted 2005-09-15
4 2006 Dodge Viper SRT-10 Coupe Date Posted 2005-09-12
5 2006 Volkswagen Jetta GLI Date Posted 2005-09-08
6 2006 Jaguar XJ Super V8 Portfolio Date Posted 2005-09-08
7 2006 Kia Rio and Rio5 Date Posted 2005-09-06
8 2006 Subaru Impreza WRX and WRX STI Date Posted 2005-09-06
9 2006 Ford Fusion Date Posted 2005-09-01
10 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Date Posted 2005-09-01
11 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara Date Posted 2005-09-01
12 2006 Honda Civic Si Date Posted 2005-08-31
13 2006 Jeep Commander Date Posted 2005-08-25
14 2006 Mitsubishi Raider Date Posted 2005-08-22
15 2006 Ford Explorer Date Posted 2005-08-08
16 2006 Chevrolet Impala Date Posted 2005-08-04
17 2006 Mazda 5 Date Posted 2005-08-04
18 2006 Volkswagen Passat 3.6 Date Posted 2005-08-02
19 Alfa Romeo 159 Date Posted 2005-08-01
20 2005 Aston Martin DB9 Volante

********************
2006 Dodge Viper SRT-10 Coupe
2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
Not cars people over 40 looking at sedans might want.

2006 Chevrolet Impala
Are you going to test both the mid line and the SS models--two completely different cars. Treat them like they were HoToy products.

navigator89

"Not a single long-term test of any of GM's minivans"

Actually, the have a full test on the Buick Terraza, and a First Drive on the Saturn Relay and Buick Terraza. I too wondered why there was nothing on the Uplander, Montana SV6 and Relay, but someone on that thread said they all drive the same so there was no point testing four versions of the same van.

I hope they test the new versions with the 3.9L V6, 240hp. You can read the links I posted.

I hope they test a Cobalt sedan. No full test on a 2005 mainstream model? Come on. We have 2006 model full tests up there.

First Drive

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=103417

Full Test

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=104714

imidazol97

I ran my newly found rubric for evaluating evaluations. I read the title and the last sentences to see if the review is negative or positive.

Both of these failed the title test: cute but negative.
Both of these failed the last sentence to each paragraph test. They were couched negatively in most paragraphs. Things that might have been said in a positive sense were turned as negatives. I'll read some other reviews by each author to see if they do this to the foreign brands also or it is a subconscious technique for American cars.

stever

Long term tests go back to 1997. I'm not sure what test grouping you are looking at.

Steve, Host

bigdaddycoats

What do you know about the Volvo C30?

The Car Connection has spy pics up here -

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_08_Volvo_C30.S178.A9383.ht- ml

Will it be shown at an auto show this fall? And on sale in fall of 06?

Just curious.

redmaxx

Actually, the have a full test on the Buick Terraza, and a First Drive on the Saturn Relay and Buick Terraza. I too wondered why there was nothing on the Uplander, Montana SV6 and Relay, but someone on that thread said they all drive the same so there was no point testing four versions of the same van.

I saw those, but I'm referring to long-term tests. There are a lot of Honda and Toyota long-term vehicles but only ONE Chevy, which makes up the lion's share of GM's sales. Full-tests are nice, but long-term ones are better.

As far as them driving the same, they each have their own little tunings. GM puts a slightly different tune into each one, plus the steering and ride are each a little bit different. The Buick even more so, because they put extra sound deadening material in and use a differently tuned suspension.

210delray

Like anyone really cares about those warmed-over 8-year old designs, with the add-on snout. Edmunds has covered them enough.

I can't be alone in my thoughts. Just look at the sales figures.

GM (and Ford too) maybe ought to get out of the minivan market altogether, if that's the best they can do. (I understand Ford will drop the Freestar/Monterey and replace them with more station-wagon-like vehicles such as the Fairlane concept.)

navigator89

I heard a rumour contrary to that, that the Freestar/Monterey would be redesigned for 2007, the Ford Fairlane would replace the Freestyle around 2009 or so, and I'm not sure where the Ford Edge fits in.

navigator89

Problem is there aren't many Chevrolet vehicles, or even GM vehicles worth adding. I think the Corvette Z06 would be nice because it is affordable, even though not really mainstream. An Equinox/Torrent would be nice, as would a new Tahoe/Yukon and Hummer H3. I'm hoping they'll add the new Lucerne as well. There are no Buick long term test ever before!

I find the import pickup segment to be overcrowded. A Ridgeline, Tacoma and Frontier?? Come on.

1487

I disagree, the new impala is worth adding as is the cobalt. Those are two significant Chevy products that should be long term tested to see how they hold vs. the imports.

1487

Are you saying the reason that you guys dont test domestic products is that there arent enough new ones on the market? Are you serious? I suggested that you long term test some models at the BEGINNING of their product cycles like the Fusion, Impala SS, Lucerne, etc. Is there any reason those models couldnt be added to the fleet? FYI, most normal domestic cars have a 6 year life span and most imports have a 5 year life span. Not a huge difference if you think about it.

Why don't you take polls from your site visitors to let them help pick your long term models. I can assure you no one wants to read about the base model Jetta with 150hp and wheel covers.

Why would you guys get a C-class when it's in the middle of it's model lifespan? The "new" model is the same as the old except for the engine and new interior trim. This car has been out since the '01 model year and is scheduled to be replaced for 2008.

1487

Since the concern seems to be that american cars are rarely redesigned I will suggest some good candidates that are as far as I can tell, at least as "all new" as the C350 Edmunds is going to add.

Impala or Lacrosse (preferably Impala since it will sell far more)
DTS or Lucerne
Fusion or Milan
500 or Montego
'07 GM full size SUV
Torrent or Equinox
Pontiac G6
Caddy SRX or STS
Jeep Grand Cherokee
Saturn Aura (next year)
Ford GT
'07 GM pickup
Chevy Cobalt SS

I cant believe you havent long term tested on of the new Cadillacs yet. I think your last, and only, Cadillac test was on a 2001 STS.

In terms of imports I suggest the new Passat V6 or Avalon.

bgreig

I found out, because I have the adaptive cruise control that shows the vehicle speed, that the speedometer is designed to be off by 5 mph at 70! It is also designed to be off progressively more with speed, something they call "deflection." Land Rover says it is because of a past lawsuit and "within standards or error"! I hope the automotive press will pick up on the fact that we are not trusted with accurate instruments. (Although I agree with your point that they are too hard to read in any event. Land Rover could learn alot from Lexus and Mercedes on instrumentation and ergonomics).

imidazol97

On my GM product the speedometer and HUD is off less than 1-2 mph and that's now that the Michelins have 30K of wear on them.

editor_karl

Sorry guys, but as you know we only add high-volume, mainstream models that will really affect an OEM's bottom line when picking long-term vehicles.

Like this one: :P
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=107422

redmaxx

How is the Impala NOT a high-volume mass-produced car that will affect GM's bottom line?

In other words, we like our bias and are keeping it. I don't get it. Why is Edmunds having such a hard time admitting it?

ejj

I think you should check the link. And maybe your sense of humor.

rorr

Hey c'mon, give the Editors a break......they DID add a car that was on 1487's list....

navigator89

Here's my choices for American vehicles to add to the long term fleet.

Lincoln Zephyr
Buick Lucerne
Pontiac Torrent
Chevrolet Tahoe
Jeep Commander
Saturn Aura
Chevrolet Impala
Ford Explorer

1487, I doubt that they will add 500/Montego, SRX or STS, Pontiac G6, Jeep Grand Cherokee because we are now approaching 2006 and these models will have to take the back seat for the wave of 2006 models coming. I do agree that they are good cars, but still......

redmaxx

No, I got the joke, but its not all that funny. My questions weren't directly answered. Why doesn't Edmunds test more GM vehicles, specifically Chevy?

imidazol97

The answer is obvious.

redmaxx

The answer is obvious.

Yeah, but an admission would be nice.

kevm14

A friend of mine has a 98 EX coupe auto. He got it because he figured it would be an economical car with which he could pour on the miles for his job (involving lots of driving). Well, it's been fairly good for that, but overall, he (and I) aren't really impressed with the car. I've driven it. I don't like it. And reliability has been about average, as opposed to "change the oil and drive." Not even close. He's looking to get rid of it for a 91 300ZX. I hope it's the turbo. Those are neat cars.

kevm14

A cool SUV on many levels, but for $70 large I'd need the controls to be better sorted.

I still don't understand the SUV craze, I guess. Put in perspective, we're talking $70k for 6-second-range 0-60 performance and just under 120 feet 60-0. I don't think I even need to tell everyone that there are plenty for a third of this cost that'll do the same thing. I noticed you didn't mention handling.

kevm14

I still love getting 400-plus miles on a tankful. With my 100-mile round-trip commute, extended range on a tank of gas remains my favorite hybrid feature (yes, I know diesels are great this way, too).

If it's just 400+ mile range you want, my mom's 96 Maxima is great for that. At the EPA highway of 27mpg (very easy to obtain and beat), you could go 460 miles and still have 1.5 gallons left in reserve. In steady highway driving, you could see over 30, which would bring the range over 500. But we seem to mainly focus on new cars so nevermind.

kevm14

LOL, I just went to that blog site. It took me a while to find the section on the stickers. Before I found it, I had to read all about this guy's experience with Hostess Glo Balls lack of glowing. Oh man, too funny. He even recorded the call to customer service.

1487

Will there be any consideration given to our suggestions for test cars or will we just be ignored?

Adding the GT has to be one of silliest things I have seen on this site. Why cant we get mainstream American models on the long term list? Is there any answer? Can we get a listing of vehicles being considered?

I think it's important to remember that the cars are being tested for the benefit of the readers, not Edmunds employees. There has still been no answer given as to why there are only three domestic vehicles in the current fleet, well now it's four if you count the GT.

rorr

"I think it's important to remember that the cars are being tested for the benefit of the readers....."

Maybe they ARE taking into account the demographics of the people who ACTUALLY RESEARCH their new car purchase. And maybe those people prefer the types of cars which Edmunds DOES put in their long-term fleet. Just a thought.....

editor_karl

Maybe they ARE taking into account the demographics of the people who ACTUALLY RESEARCH their new car purchase. And maybe those people prefer the types of cars which Edmunds DOES put in their long-term fleet. Just a thought.....

A great point rorr, and to further illustrate it, check out our Top 50 Most Researched list: http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/mostpopular/?tid=edmunds..directoryalpha.directory..1.- - - - - - - - - - - - - *

Now, let's take a look at the models that have been in the Edmunds.com long-term fleet:

1. Honda Accord -- Check

2. Honda Civic (coming soon)

3. BMW 3 Series -- Check (twice)

4. Acura TL -- Check

5. Toyota Camry -- Check

6. Honda Odyssey -- Check (twice)

7. Honda CR-V

8. Toyota Highlander

9. Mazda 3

10. Toyota Tacoma -- Check

11. Ford Mustang -- Check

12. Honda Pilot -- Check

13. Infiniti G35 -- Check

14. Toyota Sienna -- Check

15. Toyota Corolla

16. Nissan Altima -- Check

17. Toyota 4Runner

18. Ford F-150 -- Check

19. Audi A4 -- Check

20. Ford Escape -- Check (a hybrid, plus a Tribute when it came out in 2001)

21. Volkswagen Jetta -- Check

22. Lexus RX 330 -- (sort of, we have the 400h)

23. Toyota Avalon

24. BMW 5 Series -- Check

25. Chrysler 300 -- Check

26. Hyundai Sonata

27. Hummer H3

28. Audi A6

29. Acura MDX

30. Mazda 6 -- Check

31. Toyota RAV4

32. Chevrolet Equinox

33. Toyota Prius -- Check

34. Nissan Murano

35. Jeep Grand Cherokee -- Check

36. Mercedes-Benz C-Class (coming soon)

37. Ford Focus -- Check

38. Saturn Vue -- Check

39. Toyota Tundra

40. Chevrolet Silverado 1500 -- Check (had a GMC Sierra)

41. Subaru B9 Tribeca

42. Subaru Outback (close, had a Legacy)

43. Acura TSX

44. Volvo XC90 -- Check

45. Nissan Pathfinder

46. Subaru Forester -- Check

47. Nissan Frontier -- Check

48. Jeep Liberty

49. Ford Explorer -- Check

50. Hyundai Tucson


So we've had 14 out of the 20 most researched cars on Edmunds.com (it will be 15 when our Civic arrives). And we've had 30 out of our 50 most researched. Not a bad record if you ask me -- particularly if you compare us to...well, ANY other automotive publication. We have a larger fleet and we have longer updates and our Wrap-Ups completely obliterate "their" version of a long-term wrap up. My favorite is Car & Driver. They do all of ONE udpate, which is basically the wrap-up after the car is already gone. They consist of about two pages and 1,500 words. The intro alone on my Ford GT was over 1,500 words.

And you may notice that domestics make up 11 out of our 50 Most Researched models, with none in the top 10. That means our users have about a 5-to-1 ratio of import versus domestic reserach pattern. And I think domestics make up over 20 percent of the long-term fleet (see post 2023), so we're actually neglecting the imports a little in our long-term coverage. The scary part? More people are using the Internet to research cars all the time, and Internet users are HEAVILY import biased. What does this mean for the future of the domestics? (cue ominous music now)

And let me make one clear point before the inevitable "theorizing" begins.

We're not "perpetuating" the popularity of imports over domestics by covering them so well. See how when the domestics come out with a fresh, capable and market-impacting car we're all over it? Examples include PT Cruiser, 300, Mustang, and the long-term Solstice coming soon.

You want more domestics in the long-term fleet. Go tell the domestics how to produce cars that
A. Sell really well, and
B. Are popular with Internet users/shoppers (generally younger, more educated, higher income shoppers...)

BTW, it's not the media's job to do this, it's the carmakers. I've said it before and I'll say it again -- in 1999 everyone had written off Nissan (media AND consumers). Now they are back stronger than ever. How did it happen? Did the media decide to just start "being nice" to Nissan for some reason? No, the company actually started building and selling great product, which made sales go up and impressed automotive journalists.

See, the automakers are supposed to fix their problems and sell great product FIRST, then we take note and start alerting consumers to the change.

It's not the other way around, so don't look to "us" to "help" GM overcome their bad image. Believe it or not, if they build it, customers will come (even with all the "unfair bias that the mean old automotive press keeps heaping on them" -- if I hear that tired line again I'm going to, well... :sick: ).

editor_karl

Hey guys, latest Carmudgeon is live:
http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/107448/article.html

It's kind of a controversial position I've taken (tough to believe for me, I know). I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

docnukem

My life has changed drastically. I used to never look at the trip computer's MPG. Now I find myself glancing at it about twice a week.

Oh yeah, on top of that, I actually coast some of the time now.

As I said, drastic...of course, there are some who say I need to get out more.

But really, I think you are right. The coasting part is true...I do it more, but day-to-day driving is pretty much the same. My wife and I complain about it but really do nothing else. We may travel less by air this year, but our mileage in our cars will be pretty much stable. The only difference may be that we pile the family into my sedan rather than the Sequoia for day or weekend jaunts.

carlisimo

Well, lately I've had to cut spending by more than I expected, so gas consumption had to be on that list.

I haven't changed my commute driving habits - it's the only part of the working day when I feel like I'm "free," so I don't mind getting 30mpg (in a car that can get 40). On weekends though, I no longer drive above 80 for extended periods of time, because then I can use half a tank of gas in a day, driving from one part of the Bay Area to another and back.

Well ok, not above 85 for extended periods of time.

Sometimes.

But hey - I no longer dream of buying a rotary-engined car!

(In all seriousness, I think you're right. I hear so many complaints about people's Yukons, but they're not planning on downsizing when it's time for a new vehicle. They want a Yukon that gets better mileage, and they can't have it, they blame Chevy for it. Honestly, I enjoy watching them suffer.)

redmaxx

It's not the other way around, so don't look to "us" to "help" GM overcome their bad image. Believe it or not, if they build it, customers will come (even with all the "unfair bias that the mean old automotive press keeps heaping on them" -- if I hear that tired line again I'm going to, well... ).

Actually, its a little of both. If Edmunds gives poor coverage to a GM vehicle or bashes them, you will get people saying "Yep, there is another junk product from GM" and it gives a mindset that GM's products probably aren't worthwhile on the whole (true or false). So then you've got word of mouth working, which shows in the reduced amount of research on GM vehicles. Every GM vehicle negatively reviewed is just another nail in GM's coffin. To say that it is all the media or all the consumers is misleading.

bigdaddycoats

"And you may notice that domestics make up 11 out of our 50 Most Researched models, with none in the top 10. That means our users have about a 5-to-1 ratio of import versus domestic reserach pattern. And I think domestics make up over 20 percent of the long-term fleet (see post 2023), so we're actually neglecting the imports a little in our long-term coverage. The scary part? More people are using the Internet to research cars all the time, and Internet users are HEAVILY import biased. What does this mean for the future of the domestics? (cue ominous music now)

Imports may be researched more (here) - but the Big 3 still controls 60% of the market.

210delray

Thanks for a very thoughtful response. It ought to silence the whiners, "the domestic Belchfire V8 doesn't get any respect!"

But we all know it won't.