Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

advct

I need help. I put down a deposit for a used car to 'hold' it. The dealer said I would get the money back if I decided not to purchase the car. Will I ever see my $1000 again?

jeffreymn

I'm not making this up.

These events actually occurred and I have documentation to substantiate all
of it.

Let me sum up my wonderful experience with Apple Valley Ford--a Ford dealership in Apple Valley, Minnesota.

The leasing manager lied to me about the price of the vehicle before I leased it. They gave me the lease price of a vehicle including all taxes/licenses and fees. This exact price was also given to another member of my family. Two separate people--myself and my sister--were given the price of the vehicle in two
separate phone conversations by two different employees of the dealership. In fact--my sister called me to relay the price of the vehicle AFTER I had already spoken with the dealership and received the same price.

I did the responsible thing--I posted what happened to over 2 dozen consumer related sites. I did this entirely on my own time--nothing was done from my job. This point is very important.

I work in a branch office of a large software company. My job has nothing to do with FMC or any of its subsidiaries. My company is not affiliated in any way shape of form with Ford. I received a call from our human resources department in the main office. I've never even seen the human resources
department or had contact with them before. They told me they received a phone call from someone identifying themselves as an employee of Apple Valley Ford. That person went on to tell them that I was bombing their email server from my job with email harassing their dealership. That person told my employer that I was using company equipment to commit what amounts to a federal crime.

I exploded. The general manager of Apple Valley Ford issued a very weak apology letter to my employer. If you want a copy I would be happy to provide it though I must remove all reference to my employer in the letter--the letter is signed by him. He never bothered apologizing to me. It was generally believed the person that made the phone call was the leasing manager at the dealership who originally lied to me about the price of the vehicle. I was told that the employee would be severely disciplined for his actions. I was also told
over the phone by the dealership manager that they are "..going to be making a change at that position". The inference being that the employee would be fired for gross misconduct. Another employee/manager also made similar statements to me. I've learned that despite being told the employee would be terminated he still works there as of this today.

Because of these guarantees I made the mistake of leasing the vehicle anyway after they raised the price. The salesman involved in the transaction has leased quite a few cars to people I know and is a genuinely good person. He is unfortunate to be working for such a dealership.

After leasing the vehicle I received a call from the finance and lease director. He said that the price of the vehicle went up by several dollars per month because of an error they made on their end and I needed to sign a new contract. He also told me that the vehicle price per month would increase.

Of course I'm not going to agree to that. I previously contacted the local media to tell them what happened with the bait-and-switch routine I received up front. I of course told them about this but gave Apple Valley Ford a courtesy copy of the letter I sent.

I then Received a rude and abusive VM--at my place of employment--from the dealership manager admonishing me for reporting the matter to the local media. I have copies of this VM.

Just a warning--this is where things get good.

I began to receive constant phone calls from the dealership manager of Apple Valley Ford asking me to sign a new contract. He said that the old contract was "..no good.." and that I must sign a new one. I refused.

I did agree to at least look at the new contract. If it was completely identical I would consider signing it. The dealership manager said that he was unwilling to wait for the mail system and sent another employee to my office during the day. The employee informed me that he was not able to leave me the contract and that I must sign it right there. Additionally, I would also have to sign a previously unmentioned document--I recission agreement for the original invalid contract?? Red flags went up everywhere. He allowed me to copy the contracts. If you would like copies I would be happy to provide them. I went home to read the contracts that night and found MAJOR inconsistencies. $1000 in rebates seem to have disappeared.

I called and left a message on the dealership manager's VM asking for an explanation of the discrepancies in the contract. I received a VM--again at work--from the dealership manager indicating I would not need to sign any new contracts and he sarcastically thanked me for my cooperation. I have copies of this VM as well.

It sounds like the end of the story, right? Wrong.

I received yet another call from the dealership manager--again at my job--saying that I needed to disregard the previous VM that I received from him and that I needed to sign a new contract. I declined. Obviously.

I received an email from the dealership manager that night when I got home. He threatened to repossess the vehicle if I did not sign a new contract and rescind the old contract. I never did get an answer to that question--why did he want me to rescind a contract that he stated was invalid in the first place?

At that time I received an email from Ford Credit asking if I could sign a new contract. I don't think that Apple Valley Ford was truthful with him. I sent a reply to them offering to give him a copy of my contract and the problem was solved.

I received a copy of my contract back from Ford Credit along with 3 coupons for free oil changes. I appreciate the gesture but he had nothing to do with the problem--in fact he solved it. I thanked him and sent the coupons back.

To this day I have not received any compensation in any way from Apple Valley Ford for this experience. In fact, I've never even received an apology.

Now it really sounds like the end of the story, right? Wrong.

Someone pointed out to me that my license plate tabs are expired. The rocket scientist at Apple Valley Ford bought license plate tabs that were good for a total of ten calendar days. I leased this vehicle from Apple
Valley Ford on Decmeber 29, 2000. The tabs and plates were purchased by Apple Valley Ford on January 19, 2001. The tabs on the plates expire February 1, 2001. I've been driving a vehicle with expired tabs for over a month! I've been driving the vehicle illegally longer than I have legally! Again, if you want copies of the paperwork let me know.

Pretty good customer service huh?

I can't drive the vehicle. I am charging them $13.71 per day until I receive the tabs that I paid for--that's my monthly lease payment divided into 31 days.

They're

in2dadark

I agree with much of what you are doing in here.. They seem to censor the people who support the consumer.They will tell you you are off topic and erase your post. Then when you go to another topic you see all sorts of ramblings...hmm...Can you say double standard?

Copying something from an article that has no copyright attached to it (even word for word) is not WRONG in any sense no matter how they try and justify it.

How do we know what manual they are reading out of and copying? It may not be public knowledge but it is done in here. But it is only wrong when you do it..LOL

Car sales people come in here and use the excuse 'because I am in the business' I come in here...I think it is more like they would like to control what is said in here because when you shine the light on roaches they don't like it...

Car sales people you can't control what is said about what you've done all you can do is go out and change your image one associate and customer at a time. Get some regulation in your business, you make it happen .

This web site is to help the C.O.N.S.U.M.E.R. You only hurt yourself when you put down people who are trying to help others....There is no more free lunch ..Get over it. If you are a decreasing value to the people you serve your pay will decrease.

Can you say career change??

afk_x

If the dealer says your deposit is refundable, then it is. How did you you give them 1000 dollars? Cash? Credit card? Check?

I HOPE you made them give you a receipt. What does it say?

Unless you are dealing with a seriously criminal dealership, a refundable deposit is just that.

audia8q

The internet certainly hanst helped the average buyer get a lower price...Every study done on internet auto sales has shown a higher gross profit for the dealer than a traditional walk in customer....The internet must be a dealer conspiracy.

rich

im_brentwood

Well,

They said it was refundable, right? Unless you signed something which said otherwise... I dont see a problem here.

Bill

isellhondas

No dealer with any kind of a reputation would refuse to give a deposit back. Relax

mvargo1

They might not refuse outright, but you may have to work at it to get your money back.

odd1

Call your state's Attorney General's office and see if they have a consumer protection dept. If they do tell the dealer all further correspondence on this matter needs to go thru your rep there. If this is not an option get an attorney to handle this it sounds like the dealership is going to pull out all the stops to intimidate you and paint you as disreputable.

in2dadark

I would not buy an auto on the internet ..Nor did I or would I advise someone to do it...I do however advocate researching it on line and going in fully informed....

md2002

Use your credit card. Who loves you more than your credit card company. If they refuse to give you back a refundable deposit, your cc company will give it back. Then when I go in I have them credit my card and use the cash for the actual down. Who wants to pay 15% on $1k anyway.

jpvwaudi

You guys crack me up; really, it makes my day when people come into my showroom with Edmunds printouts and their Kelly Blue Book trade in prices. Just the other day I had a couple come in for a new Passat. They stood firm with their offer of 500 over for a 2001.5 GLX. That was all good and dandy, except for the fact that they couldn't handle the monthly payments on a buy. So I flipped them to a 60 month lease, sold them an extended warranty and made it into a 5g deal.....how I love my job. 15% over invoice; thats not a huge markup if you think about it. Its kinda funny though, as "educated" as they were, they didnt even realize that they paid 2500 over sticker. The best part of the whole thing is, they love me. I've already got 2 appointments with people they referred to me. If you asked them, they would tell you they got a great deal. It just goes to show that perception of a good deal is a good deal. It's always the people that you give cars away to that think you ripped them off.

fladriver

Nobody pays $2500 over sticker on a Passat!

vwguild

mccain's evil twin!

shaq2kobe

nobody trust the dealers, too many snakes in the grass

fritz1224

Does anybody know if the dealers' techs are paid different rates depending on if the work is covered by warranty or if it is out of customers' pockets? Is the rate lower for warrnty repairs? If so, this would not encourage the techs to discover problems that would be covered. Only the obvious problems would get attention and items that may be going bad would not be mentioned.
A friend had an oil leak in his new Cadillac that a service tech discovered and told him about. However, when the friend mentioned warranty work, the tech acted surprised and said they aren't supposed to tell the customer about problems they find while still under warranty.

tincup47

When I last worked at a Ford dealership, the hourly rate was the same, but Ford only paid 2/3 of flat rate time. So if a job was flat rated at 1 hour ford paid 40 min. A well run service facility encourages their techs to spot any work required. If you don't fix it under warranty there is no guarantee you will even see the car when it comes time to fix it under customer pay. The manufacturer does track warranty expense though and a retailer who has too high of a warranty index could face an audit and chargebacks.

fritz1224

So there is an incentive for the dealer to limit the amount of warranty service he provides, its just that the decision for warranty work lies with the service manager and not the tech, right? And when the tech says that something you think might be a problem, is according to him 'normal', this could be the result of the tech discussing it with the service manager and not really the tech's educated and honest opinion.

tincup47

If it truly is needed, they will try to fix it. An unhappy customer will kill their CSI, which can cost the dealer dearly. The dealers are graded on their warranty by regional averages, with "visiting owners" (people who live >50 miles away) repairs not counted against their average. The manufacturer wants necessary repairs done, they just don't want to pay for unecessary ones.

fladriver

...mccain's evil twin? Neither evil nor anyone's twin:)

fritz1224

Thanks, your input has been very helpful.

gladiator636

I currently lease two vehicles, and about 2-3 months ago my wife & I visited an Isuzu dealership in St. Louis, MO, to look at Rodeo's or Trooper's. At that time, I had about 8 months to go on both vehicle leases. I knew that if I ended my lease at that time I would, I all likelihood, be upside down on the trade in (owe more than the car was worth).

We were just looking at different SUV's, and had also been to Mitsubishi to look at Montero Sports. At that time, Mitsubishi was offering 0% financing.

As it turned out, we liked the Rodeo better, and I was also very impressed with their warranty (10yrs, 100,000 power train) but they did not have any special financing.

Anyway...we were talking to the salesman at Isuzu, and I told him I was in a lease, but too far away from the end to get out without something making it worth the loss (i.e. 0% financing) He agreed, and he did not try to push the issue...fine.

But during this conversation, he told us that the "money" we were going to get on the trade in of the leased vehicle, would be taken directly off the price of the "new" SUV, and we would only have to pay tax on that difference. This made no sense to me, because I/we didn't "own" the vehicle, and therefore had no equity in it. I made sure he understood that this was a lease, and he assured me that the information he gave me was correct.

So at this time I'm impressed he didn't try to talk me out of a lease, and gave me information that would potentially save me $600-700.

About a month or two later, I hear that Isuzu is offering 0% financing for 60 months. I'm thinking this savings may make it worth my while to get out of my lease, plus I just don't like my car anymore...so I go talk to the original salesman who told me about this tax issue above. He, of course, is happy to see us return, and in the meantime I now want a 2001 Trooper Anniv. Edition, instead of the Rodeo.

Now keep in mind that all my calculations are based on the original information of paying taxes on the difference of trade-in, not the full-negotiated price of the new SUV.

During the negotiations I AGAIN said that this was a leased vehicle. He of course tried to offer me much less than what the trade-in is worth, but we finally work out a deal that is fair in my mind. We get all the way to the financing part, and just then he HAPPENS to find out that the information he gave me was not correct. Since I don't own the trade in, they can't take if off the price of the SUV, and I will have to pay tax on the full amount.

I told him that that was what I thought in the first place, but based on information that HE had given me, this changed my calculations. He says "oh, well it only changes it by about $9-10 per month" So I said, "In that case, you won't mind knocking an extra $600 off the price of the truck, since it was your mistake". He then tried to imply that he "may" have said that, but he wasn't sure, and that he hardly ever came this far in the financing area, so he had just made a mistake. Just moments before, he had bragged about how many cars he sold. What are the odds of this situation NEVER coming up before? Bottom line, they wouldn't budge from the previous negotiated price.

My wife looked at me, she knew how much I wanted this truck, but...I can't stand being taken or lied to, so we left. I think he was counting on me wanting it that badly.

What's curious is...he didn't have anything to gain to lie to me. That extra money was going to the State of Missouri, not him. But I have no doubt that he knew what he was talking about.

raybear

Everyone is entitled to make a mistake. Don't be so upset with the salesman you lose sight of your goal of a new truck.

gladiator636

Oh, I still got my new truck...just not from him.
We went to a different dealship, and got the same deal.

By the way, if I felt it was a mistake, I wouldn't have walked out. This wasn't exactly a complicated situation...Right?

After all, he IS suppose to be the professional, and know his business.

tboner1965

If we take gladiator at his word, he asked the question twice. When confronted with making the mistake, the salesman suddent feigns that he may or may not have said something.

A mistake is one thing, and yes people make them. But what I find hard to forgive is the saleman is now acting like he didn't make the mistake, saying the customer might be mistaken.

Again, this only works if gladiator is 100% spot on here.

To me, the lie was the saleman's failure to take responsibility for what he said.

Almost as bad as debating the definition of "is"

Cheers,

TB

timadams

Good for you gladiator. I'm glad the sale and the commission didn't go to that guy who was either careless or a liar. Maybe he'll learn something from this...or just cuss you out.

raybear

Okay, I was wrong. But I have been a car salesman myself so I still have some sympathy for the poor bugger.

isellhondas

He was simply a dumb*** for not knowing any better. A lease car isn't owned it is rented.

Sales tax is paid monthly along with the lease payment therefore there can be no tax credit.

Even the dumbest green pea should know that.

I don't think he was lying, just dumb!

im_brentwood

He *_COULD_* have been thinking that it could be used as a trade-in.

I.E. The dealer buys the car, and then you get the tax advantage by using it as a trade-in. However, as we now know, most currently leased cars arent in an equity position. It would be rare for the tax savings to overcome the probable negative equity.

Bill

diegoman

Who knows what the dealer was thinking at the Isuzu place. Maybe he was lying, careless, or just made an innocent mistake.

What gets me though is when dealers say things like "It's only nine or ten more dollars per month" or "you're gonna let this car go over $400?". My question is... if this is such a small amount of money why don't you just take it out of your pocket and make the sale?

cfg1

Of course if a 25 year old invested that $9 or $10 each month, he would have $65,000 by the time he retired.

sp01

be just about enough to buy a 2031 Rodeo (adjusted for inflation, of course).

Yeah, I always like that one too! Like I'm NOT stretching just to get the leather package and the decent wheels and tires already!

jbalser

All consumers should understand that maybe one complaint about a salesperson or dealer may not be enough to end any type of scam. It is true that there are only few instances in life that are worse than haggling to buy or lease a car from a dealer. Understanding their bottom line is key - they need and want to make money. But if you feel that you have been taken advantage of as part of a bait and switch scam or some other false advertising scheme, don't be afraid to take some action. The city attorneys and district attorneys, as well as the better business bureau monitor these types of activities. In the past, major CA dealers have found themselves parties to criminal lawsuits stemming from their illegal bait and switch scams. Often, they are discovered by use of undercovered officers and officials posing as prospective car buyers. They never know who it will be because there are undercover officers at it everyday. You can even write to the company's headquarters and complain about a poor experience or attempted scam. And most of all, read everything!!!! Read the sales contract at least three times, line by line, and ask for clarification if you don't understand a provisions. Often times, its in finance where you really get scammed. Good luck!

snurple

from bankrate.com It's entitled "Minority car buyers: Beware of extra financing markup". Two federal lawsuits are pending...

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/20001129b.asp

raybear

Another reason for some folks to shop and finance online--anonymity.

mney6

just looking at our credit apps.nowhere does it ask about race.So the lenders I send the apps to
don't know either.same as buying and financing on line

raybear

It's the F&I guys doing the bump, not the bank.

mvargo1

Even with a bump, I can usually still get a lower rate than anyone but the occasional credit union. It is a good idea to do some research into what other rates you can get, before you even go in to a dealer.

fdxboy

I ask this because I did not have any PROBLEMS at all. I decided to go looking at cars. First stop was a Chrysler dealer because I like the new Stratus Coupes. I had the guy try to sell me on everything with "typical" dealer practices. I decided to check out Audi A4 the first Audi dealership did not go as well as expected(long story) but the 2nd one went without a hitch. I figured that my age 29(I look younger) would open me up to full assult of dealer tricks. This did not happen. I contacted the internet sales guy but when I got there he was already with another customer. He apologized and handed me off to the Sales Manager instead.
I figured that since he was the Sales Manager he would really know his dealer tricks. This was not the case. Everything was handled first class from, having us come into his office (no makeshift cubicle offices) to offering us bottled water to even offering my girlfriend a blanket because it was kinda cold in there.
He wrote down a figure that was fair (4% over invoice) 5% less than Edmunds for my Jeep Wrangler and even accepted my counter offer of an extra $250 off plus a nice Audi keychain.
He went over all the paperwork with me and I looked hard for any "hidden fees" and I could not find anything at all.
I never had an easier transaction for a car and wished that they would all be like this.
A few days later I received a Thank You card from the dealer who was suppose to help me and he apologized for not being work on the transaction with us. I in turn sent the owner of the dealership an email thanking them for the great transaction and commended them on their professionalism.
A few weeks ago the dealership held a picnic for all Audi owners on a Sunday (obviously the dealership was closed for business)and when I showed up I was surprised that the Sales Manager remembered who I was and thanked me again for the nice email I sent the owner of the dealership. I was drooling over the TT roadster and told the person who sold me my car I love that car and I want it is my next car. He went inside, got some keys and let me take it out with him for around 30 min and told me to have fun with it! He did not push me into anything at all. In fact he told me not to do anything in regards to buying another car for a couple of years because it would not be worthwhile for me to do so, but, when I was ready to buy he said that he would definitely remember me.
I guess my longabout question is: Does the more "higherend" dealerships tend to lose the "typical" car buying process? Less tricks involved? It would seem that those who are in the market for higherend cars tend to be treated with more respect than perceived less expensive cars. Or am I flat out wrong? I believe that if you are goig to spend a lot of money on a car that the expierence should be as good as the price if not better. In any case this Audi dealership has made me an Audi customer for life!

im_brentwood

Yup!

Pretty common I'm happy to say/afraid.

What happens is that the pros in the business often gravitate towards highline imports because, simply, that's where the money is. Also, highline buyers are generally savvy enough not to tolerate games, if all car buyers would walk out when dealers start jerking people around, then the industry would clean itself up... but I digress.

You bought your Audi in the same manner that I've always done business... Easier for everyone IMHO.

Bill

loggerhead

A central Texas Ford dealership recently advertised the Explorer Sport (2001) for $10 over invoice. I had been in the market for an Explorer and knew approximately what the mark-up over invoice was but not exactly. When I visited the dealership I found a Sport that wanted. The quoted price was good enough that I didn't question invoice. After buying, I checked Edmunds and KBB and discovered that instead of $10 over invoice that it was $156 over.(Still good but not $10). After questioning the sales mgr. he gave me a copy of his invoice, which was identical to mine except, his had a charge of: 13 U.S. Gal Gas Factory- $26.00 and at the bottom were 6 boxes with various prices including Invoice Total which were all self explanatory except for one:
FDAF/LMDA- $130.
DO I HAVE A LEGITIMATE ISSUE WITH THESE TWO CHARGES? When I test drove it there was less than 1/4 tank of gas at 14 miles on the odometer, so I know the factory didn't ship wit 13 Gal of gas and I don't have a clue what that $130 figure is.
Also, the sport is advertised to offer a $1500 dealer rebate but I only recieved a $1000 rebate. The F&I person, when asked, replied that due to my lack of credit history, which allowed Ford Motor Credit to charge me a higher interest rate (9.9%), that I didn't qualify for the whole $1500, eventhough I laid out a $5000 down pmt.
Last, what is a $4600 vehicle inventory tax?

im_brentwood

Sounds like you got a very good deal on the Explorer!

The charge for gas is normal. Ford charges it on every Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicle that I've ever seen.

What aggravates me is, as a dealer, they NEVER come in with that much gas! Maybe Ford idles every new car at the factory for 10 hours...who knows. But that's normal and legit.

FDAF/LMDA stands for "Ford Dealer Advertising Fund/Lincoln-Mercury DealerAdvertising" And is a charge levied to the dealers to recoup their regional advertising costs. Wedon't likehavingto pay it either.

Advertising fees tend to vary fromregion to region. Since you mentioned VIT, I assume you're inTX and I assume a large city/metro area. The guy in,say, Corpus Christi may pay $0 per car in advertising, and the guy in Dallas-Ft Worth or Houston may pay $200 and the guy in Austin may pay $75. Generally, the larger cities have higher costs of doing business when it comes to advertising costs for the Manufacturers so they pass these costs on to us, the dealers.

Makes sense I suppose.

As far as the rebate.. was it a dealer incentive? Sometimes they are incompatible with special finance rates. For someone without credit history, 9.9 may actually be a strong rate, if it helps.

On that one I'm honestly not certain. I'm not a ford dealer...

That being said, sounds like you did well. Enjoy it!

Bill
took a nap thisafternoon andnow I cant sleep....

armtdm

Sorry, but I would remember you and treat you like royalty if someone paid me 4 % over invoice as well. minimum good deal to me is "INVOICE Less rebates or incentives" They are still making plenty at invoice price!

mmcbride1

I'd like to see you go buy a 2001 A4 today at invoice. I'll bet you can't do it. An even more extreme example is the BMW 3 series. Try and get one of those even within $1,000 of invoice.

It's called supply and demand.

cgaydos

BMW and Audi do not have holdback. Invoice IS invoice. 4% over invoice is like 1% over invoice on a domestic car (actually a little less). Also, Audi & BMW do not have the myriad of unpublished factory-to-dealer kickbacks that the domestics do. 4% over invoice is actually a reasonable price.

raybear

"BMW and Audi do not have holdback."

Since when?

I sold BMW's and we had holdback, I got paid on it. Still, not like we had to go into it to sell a car, either.

fdxboy

Please check this site under dealer holdbacks and let me know where BMW and Audi have a hold back??? Also let me know what the % is. When you find it can you post the right link??? Oh yeah..that is right...there is no dealer hold back for these vehicles. I am with McBride and cgaydos...You will NOT get a BMW or Audi at invoice!

raybear

At least when I sold them. But you guys are also right, no dealer needs to dip into it to sell a car. The only BMW you may get at invoice is a Z3 2.5, and that has factory to dealer cash right now.

elion_84

A dealer offered me a reasonably good price on a car I'm shopping for, but asked not to mention the price or his dealership to other dealers I may be talking with. Is this a reasonable request or a way to keep me from getting dealers to bid against each other?

raybear

Really what difference does it make? I may not hold to the price confidence, but there's no reason you should have to tell another dealer what he's offering.