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High End Luxury Cars



  • Merc.

    There is no evidence that side airbags make a significent safety difference for rear seat passangers.

    I AGREE WITH YOU, while all the cars you mentioned were not Luxury sedans they are definately Luxury cars..

    No one has denied the Mercedes role in developing Safety innovations...They are used in every car in the world ...But if they can't always be depended upon to work EVERY TIME...In the Mercedes there is a problem that needs to be fixed and it has been more then a decade now that Mercedes has been on this down hill track. IF YOU HAVE ANY SAFETY REPORTS THAT SUBSTANTUATE YOUR CONTENTION THAT MERCEDES IS SAFER THEN LEXUS, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IT.

    I have not seen a single post (other then yours) that states the CD in the dash is more important then roll over protection. Not ONE..The CD in the dash is nice however.

    Reliability ...relates to almost every issue..Safety, Cost, Convience (it is not convient to have your car in the shop) Resale

    This is the United States..We care about our opinions and less so the German opinion....That seems logical to me...Lexus is the top selling Ultra Luxury Car in America...That on the bottom line is the Survay that counts to Americans

    The data provided to support the positions of the Lexus side is significently greater then the other side has been able to produce ...neither side has been able to provide much hard data on safety.

    The Lame website ...was an excellent showed the safety items that a parts house is stocking up on for mercedes...They don't stock up on lexus parts because they don't sell enough of them to make it profitable...RELIABILITY RAISES IT'S UGLY HEAD AGAIN.

    If I remember correctly the most recent recall for 04 Transmissions was not a required recall but was done because that is how Lexus does business.

    Problems are relative...Compared to Mercedes Lexus has no problems to speak of.

    The princess Dye is an excellent example of how good a Mercedes can be when everything works as it should...but not a ringing endorsement of anything...who know if the Princess would have survived the same accident in a Lexus!!

    We both agree on your last and I are prime examples.
  • Merc:

    Until you can provide some crash data to prove your point you are just arguing to argue.

    P.S. A child is more often harmed by an airbag then protected...That is one of the reasons why childrens car seats are put in the back. It is doubtfull a side airbag would be of any value to a child who is mandated to be in a car seat. A side curtin airbag does protect the child from flying glass if nothing else.

    Since the Corolla is the only actual data presented..It does have much relavence to this discussion...UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE OTHER DATA..Can you.
  • tiag:

    It was the seatbelt and shoulder harness and crumple Zones(I assume) that saved the bodyguard...Hmmmmm...Not front or side airbags or side aircurtin but the seatbelt...Interesting.

    Kudo's to Mercedes..
  • tiag:

    And yet the lack of actual safety data would also leave open the OPINION that because the LEXUS is a far more RELIABLE car (acknowledged by all)..It would tend to be safest because the greatest safety device in the world is worthless if it doesn't work when it needs to.
  • Merc:

    It would lead to a safer car..Their research is a tremendous service to car buyers of every car because it is my understanding that they SHARE that data. The mark of a great company.

    BUT...Once again if the action they take involves something mechanical and that device doesn't always work..IS NOT RELIABLE...then the company that makes the device reliable reaps the benefits for their customers.
  • tiag:

    But then Lexus came along in the earily 90s and everything changed....As you said.
  • tiag:

    You are probably right..If Mercedes stopped putting it's ad money into superficial "aren't we PRETTY" commericals and went back to their old commericals stressing safety, I think it would be a better approach for them.
  • sv7887sv7887 Posts: 351
    Hi all,
    That link I was referring to before is as follows:

    It is an interesting article on the effectivness of airbags. Volvo apparently was the first to bring this to market. I don't think an airbag makes or breaks the safety of a specific car, but of course it can't hurt. There does seem to be data on side airbags in the rear injuring children.

    The SC430 does indeed have rollover protection. I've checked on various other sites and it does. Lexus does have a brief comment on it as well on the SC430 model site. I didn't think Lexus would make that glaring of an error. Virtually every manufacturer follows the same strategy as Lexus in regard to the latest and greatest safety measures. Volvo and Mercedes seem to take lead in this category.

  • Tiag:

    That is really amazing ...Even more amazing is that in late 06 Lexus will be out with a AWD Hybred LS with as much or more power...For a lot less money...
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,663
    I must say when you have to bring such an unfortunate and sad incident - that is still under investigation - into as mindless discussion on safety as this one has become, it means we really have hit rock bottom.

    I must say the discussion on safety here by a bunch of people who have such limited technical knowledge or expertise on it is as useful as some of us trying to design a manned spacecraft to Mars.

    So let's start a climb back north and put an end to all this silly nonsense once and for all.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    And I must say that I couldn't agree more with those who are saying this subject of the safety issue is done. We've exhausted every aspect of it and we are way past the point of agreeing to disagree. It is time to move on.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    I concur totally. The initial and rather flippant comment of using the Princess Di tragedy to try to make a point about which of 2 auto manufacturers has the safer cars was ludicrous and inappropriate.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Which carmaker do your instincts tell you is the best-selling luxury marque in the U.S.?

    Acura 20%
    BMW 20%
    Cadillac 11%
    Lexus 36%
    Mercedes-Benz 13%

    See, this is a poll about *instincts* not feely, touchy thingys....

    Looks like Lexus is running away with the crown isn't it ? Hehehehehehe....
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    Would it be better to start a new section in order to exclude the Japanese cars and focus on the German/English/French/Italian?
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "Would it be better to start a new section in order to exclude the Japanese cars and focus on the German/English/French/Italian?"

    And why, may I ask ?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    Please expand on your reasons to exclude Japanese cars from high-end discussions. What's the point?
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Mercedes' …"reliability problems" are nothing more than electrical quirks and other minor things anyway…items of importance have proven to be rock solid…All of the safety systems introduced by the Germans have worked flawlessly from day one.

    Care to back your sweeping claim up with some proof? When a claim is that broad it only takes an anecdote or two for me to prove you wrong.

    Like the MB manufacturing defect that caused brake failure and at least one death:

    Or the failure of a brand new S’s airbag to deploy, costing the driver his left arm:

    Or the family that met its death after their MB broke down and they were rear-ended by a truck:
    (though in fairness we aren’t told why the MB was disabled…possibly it was a flat or something unrelated to reliability)

    And as for your claim that MB’s brake reliability issues (reported in CR) were just due to excessive pad wear and had nothing to do with safety:
    …the article suggested that 1300 or so MBs required greater than normal distances and greater than normal force applied in order to stop. Doesn’t that mean safety to you?

    Lexus’ lack of certain safety features like rear-door airbags does matter, but how much? How many people have died due to the lack of that or other features? Versus how many have died due to MB reliability issues? I don’t know and you don’t know, so as I stated before there is simply no convincing proof that real world safety of the S is better than the LS, or vice versa. We should just drop that line of discussion.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    CR has rated both the Mercedes E and S better in accident avoidance than the LS 430.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Since you guys are throwing around words like "CR is a fraud", let me point out some info that you could have found on the CR website:

    "...2004 models were generally less than six months old at the time of the survey...Vehicles that new should have few problems, so a score of [half-red] or worse is below average for most...WHY DOES IT LOOK RELIABLE BUT GETS AN X? This is a frequently asked question about our reliability charts. Sometimes a vehicle (especially a 2004 model) will have seemingly high Ratings, such as [all red] or [half-red], in the 14 trouble spots, but gets a below-average (X) reliability verdict. That’s because at least some of the trouble-spot Ratings didn’t compare well with the average ratings for that model year, as shown in the average vehicle chart. For instance, the 2004 Saab 9-3 was rated [all red] in nine categories, [half-red] in four categories and [blank] in one category. By comparing that with the Ratings for the average 2004 model, you can see that the 9-3's Ratings are worse than the average in five areas, one of which--transmission--is weighted more heavily. The result is a below-average (X) reliability verdict."
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,269
    All well and good, but what about the 2005 BMW 5 series? 13 full or half red circles indicating above average reliability and 1 clear circle indicating average reliability. So no below average ratings out of 14 possible trouble spots for 2004-the first year for the new model. A very impressive showing! From this, CR gives this car a much worse than average projection for 2005?
    I believe CR has some 'splainin' to do!
    I wrote them about this specific example and hope they respond.
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