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Comments
bmwseller's (aka woody) prior comments regarding the new new 5 series have also offended me at times. I know you are probably sincere and passionate about the new 5er Woody, but to some of us, it really feels like the kids story, "The Empereor has new Clothes". You know the one were the tailor gives the emperor invisible clothes and all the people are told he has clothes on, until one little boy has the nerve to say " where is his clothes?". We are not just hearing this from you, but from BMW directly. They seem to be TELLING us what WE SHOULD like. It comes off as, "don't you little people really know what is good for you and what TRUE styling is all about?" Give me a break. I think enough people with experience on this forum know when they see a stinker, and Chris Bangle may bend this company into a spin they will not recover from. Their true German stubbornness is really showing through on this. And for crying out loud, can they get the cup holder thing worked out? Even "chinsy" cars can do this little thing. Oh, that's right, we can buy after market cup holders, because after all we should not be drinking whilst we drive! But it is ok for the Europeans to smoke their asses off whilst they drive, right? They seem to have enough freakin' ash trays.
I haven't seen the '04, but after reading all of the latest exerpts, I can drive my '03 with a bigger smile on my face.
Congratulations on your new 5!
Tons of info in this years-long discussion on the 5 Series sport package. I recommend doing a search at the top of the page. My opinion is that the 5 series is a fantastic car either way (spend some time reading the 1000's of great comments--this car is truly well-loved) but I bought a Bimmer because it leans toward "sport" vs. luxury. The sport package really finishes this concept for me. The tires and suspension transmit more road information (not harsh though) and I like that. It is amazing how hard you can push a heavy sedan like the 5 into tight corners and the car just sticks with very little roll. And you can't help but grin in the big sweepers at speed. I use my '01 530ia as a daily commuter and a lot of the time the sport pack is only marginally noticeable, but the 10% of the time when I can really push the car it becomes a major and exhilarating part of my driving experience. You pay more for tires and replace them more frequently but it's OK with me. I am sure that there are many aftermarket options to get you where you want to be.
Re: 2004 redesign
Really glad I have my E39. Checked out the new one this weekend. Just doesn't do it for me inside or out. Great analogy above to human physical attraction--chemistry is everything.
-John
I got the 2003 because I do not like the '04 styling at all. I agree with many posts here.
-Brian
As long as I had only seen the car in mags or passing by on the Autobahn, I was just happy to have been able to find an excellent CPO ('99 528iT) before they turned into collector's items. Especially the "Subaru treatment" of its tail lights doesn't sit well with this design. On a happier note, the 5er isn't anywhere as hideous as the Z4, let's all be greatful for that.
Yesterday I had the dealer look at my E39's a/c system, as it simply refused to work twice within eight weeks. After a master reset (neg. battery cable), everything is back to normal, but they still went ahead and replaced the control unit anyway (known glitch). While they combed the car's memory for fault codes, the wife and I took a new 530i (w/$3,300 Sports Package incl. adaptive roll stabilization) for a spin.
The salesman insisted that he'd ride with us for two minutes first to show us a few things. So he approches an on-ramp at waaay too high a speed and turns in. The car reacts, turns, and carves the bend as it were on rails. No leaning. No wobbling. No plow. Wow! After we had dropped him back off at the dealership, I tried that myself a few times, and I am telling you: the possible speeds are downright ridculous, while handling is never in question. Sure, the car sits on huge 245/40-18 rubber, which improves handling and hurts comfort - but that's a trade-off I could live with!
Bottom line is that the design is still polarizing, worse from the back than from the front, but we all know that beauty is only skin deep. Its dash looks (and feels) cheap, as does (the almost vertical) door handle's plasticky haptics. You will get used to iDrive, as I did during my test drive - you just have to make peace with its presence! News flash: it will not go away! The current S-Class' dash sports about 40 switches, therefore BMW is only taking the heat for their next gen access control that we will see in lots of other cars soon. AUDI has already perfected it (more intuitive), and Benz will have to catch up eventually.
The only thing that really bothered me is the extremely elevated belt line. A Bimmer's design used to be fragile, yet powerful, and never flashy. Well, the latter has changed (as all except Bangle will admit), but the vast mass of sheetmetal in the side line is something I have only noticed with disgust on some AUDI models, predominantly the last-generation A4 (particularly the Cabrio version). When inside the 5er, the "airyness" is gone, all of a sudden, you look at the world from a tank now, too.
So what do you all recommend for someone who wants a mid size sedan with BMW handling and a manual transmission? Maybe I should go on a diet and squeeze into a 330i performance package 6-speed? Nothing by Mercedes or Audi is on my list, except if I want to go ultra practical with the E320 CDI coming out next spring. No manual, but a 7-speed auto and 35+ mpg help.
I wonder how many more miles/years I can squeeze out of the Maxima.
My biggest problem with E39 is driver's legroom. I always found it curious, but the 03 3 series has more legroom. Of course, the back seat is another story. This should be a glory year for the 3 and pricing next summer... that is, if BMW doesn't wake up.
So last night I parked the car in my garage with the gas light on, showing 30 miles till empty. This morning, with the gas light still on I drove my car 2 miles for a 25 minute meeting. When I returned to the car - after driving about 1 mile -I noticed the mileage indicator said 150 miles till empty and I had about 1/3 of a tank of gas.........
No - no one took the car and dropped some gas in it while I was in the meeting. Computer glitch or what?
But Habitat, for you, there really is no other car, if you're looking for a stick (and a 6-speed to boot). In a way, I've always looked at each of my 2 BMW's ('91 525, '02 530, both stick) as a particular >chassis/engine/transmission< combination, apart from secondary styling issues. And in this respect, I just don't think anything else stacks up (with the exception of an MB E320, IF you can accept a slushbox, which is a 5-speed and not the new BMW 6-speed.) And that really is the bottom line, so suck it up on the styling and I-drive, and you'll end up with the best piece of rolling stock for your tastes.
Just an example, here you see the difference between the US glovebox door, and the global version:
This difference cost you dearly in the already tight cave of the 5er - it's definitely worth the job, if you prefer to keep an E39 over getting the Bangle-ized "visual litter".
I too, was encouraged to get my '03 530 when I saw the photos of the new E60's. The incentive was the kicker! I was looking at the 3ers at first, then the incentives and E60 photos convinced me to jump on one now. With the price increase on the E60 and incentive on the E39's, it is a $7K to $10K difference!
As I had expected (after seeing the photos), the car design sucks!
Rear: Acceptable
Side: O.K.
Front: Yikes!
Interior: Ugly. Looks cheap. My 03 5 seires has high quality wood interior. The 04 interior is sad.
The 2004 is adefinitely advanced (or step int he right direction) as far as technology is concerned. But as far as the way it looks, I think BMW has mde a mistake.
My $.02.
I am very glad that I bought a 03 525i.
designman, how tall are you? I am 5'11" and cannot complain about the seat adjustment range or head room. Being almost bald does have its merits (besides women being unrescuably attracted by it...)
Feeling very sure of himself today Tarik
I'm not a big fan of the E-class, given diminishing reliability and problems of late. However, it appears that the old turbodiesels were better than the gas versions.
Clearly the former 5-series was a great car 7+ years after it's introduction. Why the new one couldn't be an evolution rather than a revolution looks wise is a puzzling question. Guess BMW never heard the rule "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". I can forego some aesthetic preferences in exchange for driving dynamics and performance, as long as it's not a decrease in fit and finish quality. So I guess the next step is to have a shot of something and go to the dealer.
Unfortunately, the new 7 speed a/t will only be only be offered in conjunction with the 430 and 500 model V8s at this point.
On the other hand, if the E-60 falls flat and starts getting discounted (like the 7 series did in its first year) there may be plenty of buyers for CPO-able E-39's. Still, expecting to make a profit by re-selling a car you buy at 62% resid is a long shot.
HiC
In your case, I believe the big discounts they offered on '03 5's may make your purchase option price ABOVE market. You, of course, know if the car was pampered or flogged, and thus worth more or less than average, but I'd use the $4k discounts that were offered as a bargaining chip to get a reduced purchase price if you decide to keep your car. After all, everyone of us with an E39 lost $$ when they offered those discounts.
In example given by PEN101 saying he'll be able to buy his car out for under 29 g's: I challenge anyone to find an '01 530 with good mileage on it for that money. If that deal is out there, it's a heckuva a bargain.
530's are expensive. I don't see nice low mile ones selling real cheap.
The MSRP on my 2002 530i was $46,195 as equipped. The transaction price was $42,895 ($1,000 over invoice). The car currently has 23K miles on it. If I can sell the car today for $40K, I would be thrilled.
As a side note, if I were to purchase the 04 530i with same options, MSRP would be about $52K and invoice approx $48.5K. So, assuming the transaction price is $1,000 over invoice (as before, but would not happen in today's market), the new 5 would be about $6K more expensive. Do I get $6K of improvements over my 02MY 5?
For 2003, there are 2 540ia's listed. One 2002 540i6 listed. For 2001 there are 2 525iT (one auto, one manual) and 2 540i (one auto, one manual).
I just (minutes ago) had a client who does not especially like the new styling of the 5 drive it for the first time. He has a beautiful sport package 528 and he grinned and giggled with delight when driving the new 5. We talked about the look of the car and to him that is not a primary buying motive. Don't get me wrong, I love the look of the new car and the old one but he says that the performance, quality and overall ride and drive are why he buys 'bimmers (also has Z3 and X5). That and he loves the service here along with his client advisor.
That 530 you have there will be a great car for a long, long time...no buts.
There are always compelling reasons to trade up.
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As a non-BMW owner, I don't have a current 5-series to tout and directly compare to the "Bangled-up" design. The looks were not quite as offensive to me as they are to others here and, from what I understand, the handling with the sport package is an improvement on what was already a class leader. However, I am having a tough time with the price increase. A 530i reasonably equiped (sport, xenon, dsp stereo, but NO premium) comes in at around $52k MSRP. I know I could go ED at $1,500 over invoice and probably get it for around $47k, but that's much less of a bargain than the $41k ED price for the 2003 model (in addition to the 8% base price increase, the sport package and stereo upgrades are $2k+ more). By the time I start approaching or exceeding $50k for a family sedan, my expectations go up considerably.
On the other hand, I would think this makes the 545i relatively more competitive. What's an extra $8k +/- once you get above $50k? Plus, the considerable added power of the 2004 model and elimination of the gas guzzler tax make the 545i a less costly upgrade for a better car than the 2003 version.
I'm holding off further consideration for now. The forthcoming E320 CDI holds some interest and a $50k +/- 530i just doesn't seem like a good deal. Especially when I see in today's Washington Post no fewer than 3 2001/2 M5's with 10k-20k miles advertised for $53k to $57k obo.
P.S. bmwseller: Regarding resale values, I see your calculations, and if I were the owner of a 2001 530i trying to trade it in to you, I'd be making the same claims. You, however, wouldn't buy it. There is little likelihood that a 3 year old 5-series, low mileage or not, can fetch more than 70% of it's original price. You want to let me drive a 5-series for $1,500 per year?? Or even $3,000 per year?? I'll be happy to sign up this afternoon. Without any real difficulty, I could buy in the Washington DC area a 2001 530i with under 35k miles for $30k. And that's a good deal for the seller. They could have purchased that car for around $42k through discounted ED, driven it for 3 years and incurred 0 maintenance expenses, and had it cost them $4,000 per year ($333 per month) in depreciation. Anyone who would pay more for a 3 year old one needs to take a few more post graduate math courses.
Here again I'll use the Manheim Auction Report as evidence: the average wholesale auction price on a 2001 530i for sep-oct sales is $29,699, average miles 34,103.
Some things I have opinions about some things are facts. The fact is that the total cost of ownership on that car is LOW!!!
Benz is about the badge and they're not winning any beauty contests either... Roswell New Mexico head lamps, oversized, gaudy tail lamps and Chrysler countenance in general. I'd take a boring but reliable RL over a Benz. Then you'd really save some bucks!
However, you seem like M5 material. They hold their value real well and I think if you try, you could get one from an individual at a buy. Deals aren't about math, rather offering low to a someone who needs to sell. You will probably get turned down on many occasion, but there will be someone who bites. E39 M5 rules, and when it comes to the ride, so does BMW (throw Porsche in there too). But the real bargain is ownership.
Wouldn't the average wholesale auction price of $29,700 for a 2001 530i indicate that the customer trading that car in is getting at least 10-15% less on trade? Put it another way, what would you give on trade for a 2001 with 34k miles? My guess is that you wouldn't pay more than $26-27k in trade for a car that you could wholesale for $29.7k. Am I right?
designman: Good points. Although I actually think the 2003 redesign of the E-class is an aesthetic improvement, or at least not a step backwards aka the 5-series. My possible consideration of the E320 CDI is on the basis of practicality. One of my colleages owns a 1998 E300 TD with 80k miles and she has had 0 unscheduled maintenance/repair issues, gets 32+ mpg and the car carries a higher resale today a comparable E320 gas and nearly the same as the E430. It is nowhere near the "drivers car" of a 6-speed sport package 5-series, but it is perhaps the most frugal luxury sedan available in terms of ownership costs and resale (especially for 15k+ mile per year drivers like me).
I'll bet the market will be "flooded" (a relative term for a low production car) with CPO E39 M5s in a little over a year when the 500hp V10 powered E60 M5 bows. I feel like many owners in such a high priced/high perfromance segment really like to have whatever is new right now (and they have the financial credentials to back it up).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
In my experience, you get less in trade than the auction price. Why? On a trade, they only have one car to choose from, and it may not be a car they actually want for their inventory. At the auction, they have many cars to choose from and will only buy exactly what they want.
There may be the incentive to close the new car sale, but once it gets to that point, they know you want their car, and now you have an unwanted car that you have to get rid of. They usually try to play this to their advantage. In fact, if your car is a different make, they will usually shop it to a local dealer of that make over the phone, and only offer you what they can wholesale it for that very day.
I'm with habitat on this one... Auction value is the most I'll pay a private seller for his car. And thats usually more than the dealer will give him on trade. YMMV
regards,
kyfdx
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Thanks for advice