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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,540
    >VW/AUDI

    What kind of coverup is VW participating in? Or have they been reporting all UIA events. Do their dealers document all complaints?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    VW/AUDI has more UA than Toyota!

    Do you have a link or source to back that up? Or is it just a gut feeling and or wishful thinking. I would love to see that data. One of the biggest Toyota fans on the thread posted the top 117 vehicles with UA complaints. No VW or Audi in the bunch. Lexus held down 4 of the ten WORST. None with CTS throttles to blame on a US manufacturer. All made outside the US of A.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    NHTSA data complaint system is only voluntary. Manufacturers are not required by law to turn over their complaints to NHTSA. Manufacturers do when asked turn over complaints, but numbers not guaranteed. They can turn over what they want. Government does no surprise audits of records.

    I posed a question to bloggers if they had problems with Toyota writing down their complaints when serviced. Immediately there were two that did. Twice they did not write my complaints on my work order, and was not on completed order when paid. Not sure if this is an issue or not.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Twice they did not write my complaints on my work order, and was not on completed order when paid. Not sure if this is an issue or not.

    Why wouldn't they make note of a problem when described to them by a customer? I can find not one good reason for it other than they were told not to write certain types of problems thus not creating a history of that particular problem. One of the ways to get the manufacturer to buyback a vehicle is through the state's lemon law. It has to be documented that the manufacturer/dealer had three opportunities to fix a safety related problem. If they cannot repair it within three attempts they are required to buyback the vehicle under the lemon law.

    So no record no lemon law no buyback. Sneaky sneaky sneaky.
  • I am the original owner of a 1995 Toyota Avalon with 156,000 miles and never had a recall. I did replace 2 timing belts, one set of spark plugs, one set of front brake pads, a battery, a fan belt and a front axle that was probably my fault by driving into a hole in the rode. That car is fifteen years old, has been garaged and looks and runs like new. I have had zero complaints. I bought that car because my prior two Toyotas were also trouble free with zero complaints.
    Based upon my experience with Toyotas, I purchased a 2008 Toyota Avalon Limited and now have 24,000 miles on it without a repair or a complaint. It is the best car that I have ever owned or driven. I recently received a call back to repair the accelerator pedal, the driver's side all weather floor mat and the VVT-i Oil Hose that has been reported to break and leak the oil out of the car. I am disappointed that these things have occurred, but I am hopeful that corrections will be made and my car will run as well as it is running today. Call backs are not a new phenomenon and have occurred with most if not all car manufacturers. This is a wake up call to all car manufacturers and their workers to put out a better product or their jobs are on the line.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    This was posted by another user in another thread.



    Sources:
    1
    2

    By using the data above, I can conclude that VW has twice as many complaints about unintended acceleration than Toyota in 2009. Toyota's getting crucified for something that isn't particularly uncommon or unusual. Similar to Audi 5000, where ALL UA on Audi 5000 complaints and deaths are drivers' error. Not suprising due to US law system, sue and blame the other!
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    edited March 2010
    Let try another post to show the chart.

    image

    Sources:
    1
    2
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,713
    ATTENTION ALL DEALERS:
    Many of you likely have Toyota owners and potential customers coming into your store because of Toyota’s Unintended Acceleration recalls. Many may worry there’s something more than floor mats and “sticky” pedals. And you probably would like to be able to show them proof that Kia vehicles indeed have better designed Electronic Throttle Controls than Toyota. Well, here’s how, just in time for Toyota‘s new sales blitz..
    First, print Dr. Gilbert’s testimony to Congress from here:
    energycommerce house gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
    Note I took out the hyper text protocol indicator and replaced the dots with spaces, so add those back.
    Next, print out the Toyota recall procedure from here:
    images thetruthaboutcars com/2010/02/Tech-Instructions-Preliminary-Posting-BIL.pdf
    Don’t forget to add the http and periods back.
    You’ll want to highlight in Dr. Gilbert’s statement where he said he shorted the sensor leads together without any trouble code being set, and where he said he then connected those two leads to 5V reference voltage and produced WOT acceleration with no DTC/MIL. On the recall procedure, you’ll see the system acceptable voltages on pages 8 and 9. You’ll want to point out two things: At WOT, the two sensor voltages can in fact overlap. And that full system reference voltage is a valid input and wouldn’t set a DTC. Just like Dr. Gilbert’s tests found! It looks like 5V on side 1 might set a code, but the tests indicated that’s not the case, not surprising since there’s only a 10% difference anyway.
    Next, you’ll want to print the system description and specs from the Shop Manual for your car. CAUTION: not every car in the line-up has ETC.
    CAUTION: I’m basing what follows on the Hyundai Azera manual. I cannot fathom that Kia’s system differs, but be sure to verify this. If anyone finds any discrepancies, PLEASE let me know.
    I found it under Fuel System>Engine Control System>Accelerator Position System. The system description and specs clearly show that this system uses resistors to do two things: Choke the maximum voltage on side 1 to 4.35V, so the system can detect a short to reference. And on side two, voltage is choked to 50% of side one. So if a foreign voltage was introduced or somehow induced in the sensor leads, the ECU would know that since it’s ALWAYS looking for side one to be twice the value of side two or a code will be set!
    Remember, this isn’t taking advantage of Toyota’s misfortune. This is a key safety feature that Toyota lacks, just like Active Head Restraints on some of their cars. Remember too that Toyota has avoided warranty claims for repairs on cars that have had UA and likely has avoided costs on cars that might have otherwise experienced MIL for transitory electrical events. Plus they’ve likely avoided negative survey responses on “Check Engine Light”/MIL. Whether or not this design is the root cause of Toyota’s UA claims, it’s still obvious Kia took extra caution and designed extra safety features in that Toyota didn’t.

    I think Toyota's as guilty as all hell. Period. See ya and I really wouldn't wanna be ya Toyota.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This appears to be the long term study from 1999-2009. Edmunds did a study ovver the last 3-4 years of all NTSA complaints February 22, 2010. You can find in at the bottom of their homepage - press/news releases

    The second study found Toyota did have the highest SUA/UA complaints. Ford came in second, etc.

    The first study which was a long study found Toyota 17th.

    I consider the second study more informative as it tells you how manufacturer is doing more recently.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Hope NHTSA is not eliminating some complaints as they have done so often in the past.

    Good to see this report for 2009 models only. There would be other reports though. THIS REPORT IS FOR ONLY 2009 MODELS. COMPLAINTS OF OTHER YEAR MODELS WOULD HAVE EXISTED FOR 2009 ALSO.

    So one fulty aspect to this study does exist. Only 2009 model study done. All other year models not counted. Why was this study pushed??? That is good question??

    Just food for thought.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Toyota did not do twice, but will most certainly not happen again. I noticed, but let it go. On watch now.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Just curious. What was it that they didn't log down? Was it the only thing it was in for? I'd think it would be difficult if you took it in for one item and they didn't note it. Would be like could you sign here acknowledging that we did correct the item that we didn't log down...lmao.
  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    I understand your problem , I have had 74 GM products over 53 years and in the beginning the used ones I bought were not bad but $150.00 got you a 54 Chev. $500.00 a 55 Chev. convertible all good cars. The Enclave I have now has great mileage carries my mother (94 the 15 Th of this month) her walker ,the wife ,the dog and it has the Ford/GM six speed transmission with the tow pack.Their has been re calibration once on the trans. The big thing with all the builders of cars in North America, is not one of them knows what the buyer wants. This being said,not one of the customers knows what he wants either. The Dealers being reinstated 600 will help put people back to work. Then you watch Toyota sales come back ? The people having good jobs working for a GM Dealership do also buy Toyota ( would this make sense to you?)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    edited March 2010
    Just curious. What was it that they didn't log down?

    On my 5000 mile first service I took a list of 11 complaints to the dealer. He typed them all into the computer while I stood there. When they were done he explained why they did not do anything about 9 of the items. When I got my paper work all it showed was the oil change and service. One of the things they claimed they did was not what I asked. I wanted all my tires brought up to 36 lbs. I guess it was too much trouble to also pump up the spare to keep the TPMS light from coming on. So when I checked them the next day they were still at 32 lbs. I finally crawled under and brought the spare up to 36 along with the rest of the tires.

    Next time I went in I told them the tailgate still did not go up when it was below 45 degrees. They had no record of that being addressed on my previous visit. I quit using them for Service. I used a dealer in Indiana on our long trip to do the 15k mile service. Pretty much the same lame excuses for the tailgate and high priced oil change.

    I got Walmart to do my 20k mile service. Using Mobil1 synthetic it cost the same as Toyota oil change with dino oil. Toyota wanted $125 for an off brand synthetic oil change. I will only use the dealers for warranty which I did buy the 7 year platinum $0 deductible plan. Still have those issues which they seem useless to fix. I wonder if my hitting my head on the tailgate when it does not go all the way up is a safety issue? I guess I need to talk to my Congressman, while they have Toyota on the hotseat.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    The ODD of having UA in Audi/VW is twice more likely than Toyota in 2009, based on NHTSA report.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,540
    > I wonder if my hitting my head on the tailgate when it does not go all the way up is a safety issue? I guess I need to talk to my Congressman, while they have Toyota on the hotseat.

    Toyo will lame you for being too tall or misusing the tailgate. Typical of US buyers so it will be your fault.

    I just sliced a part of my fingertip off on the dryer lip for our Cabrio Whirlpool. I think I'll register a complain. But at least the computer in it doesn't run away with unintended drying and it responds to the OFF button. :blush: :P
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Look at the ODD, you can spin all u want, but AUDI/VW had twice UA complaints than Toyota in 2009!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,540
    >Toyota in 2009!

    And in the other years, how do they compare?
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    I had almost the same experience with my Chevy dealer except they did log everything down and when picking up the truck it would state "Could not duplicate" after each item. After a few times I got a little smarter. I used to take either the tech or the service manager on a test drive to confirm that they heard the sound. or felt the trans clunk, or smelled the foul air from the a/c. ;)
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Look at the chart on post# 2095! AUDI/VW has implemented brake overide feature on all of their cars, and yet they got many complaints on UA. Does it make sense?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    Not according to the NHTSA report put out by Edmund's. You have any data as to which vehicle is supposedly subject to this UA report. All indications are the Lexus ES is the worst vehicle for UA on the NHTSA. Which makes sense. The 2009 ES350 is the vehicle 4 people burned to death in last year. If you have not read the reports I would be happy to post them for you. They have been on here several times since it happened.

    Toyota is on the stand because they ignored UA thinking they were above the law and the consumers were not important. Nice try at diverting attention to other automakers. Just no reason to believe the others have the UA failure rate that Toyota has. How many people have died as a result of UA in a 2009 VW or Audi? Show us the link.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    In case you missed the real truth about UA and Toyota. Here are the charts again. 6 of the worst 10 vehicles for UA are all built by Toyota.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/deeper-nhtsa-data-dive-117-models-ranked-by-rat- e-of-ua-incidents/
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    If you seem so certain about VW/Audi having more UA complaints on the NHTSA site, you should go look for yourself. I just pulled up the most popular models of VW and Audi for 2009 and this is the only report I found for UA. And when he hit the brakes the car stopped. I think you picked a dog that just won't hunt. Your chart is bogus.

    VEHICLE WAS TURNING INTO A PARKING SPOT, DRIVER HAD MOVED FOOT FROM ACCELERATOR PEDAL TO BRAKE. SUDDENLY, ENGINE SURGED AND VEHICLE BEGAN TO ACCELERATE. THE DRIVER APPLIED SIGNIFICANT BRAKE PRESSURE TO HALT VEHICLE AND TURNED OFF IGNITION. VEHICLE SUBSEQUENTLY DROVE NORMALLY AND DEALER INSPECTION FOUND NO PROBLEM. *CN
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Wehn I took my auto in I stated I wanted electrical checked as for some reason light had switched from front lighting overhead to back seat lighting when door opened. So I had no mirror lighting. Also wanted idle checked as had some unexplained increases when braking, parking ,etc. I also wnted it completely serviced for a long road trip. My complaints were not written on work order. Was a problem when picking it up. Service center attempted to just make me pay without speaking with an agent of work completed. I just requested to speak with agent. Second agent stated I didn't ask, it's not on report. Just had to politiely stay and requested first agent.

    Thye first time there was an issue was when I bought the vehicle. They let me take it home, but was to return it to have door painted as there were scratches on door. Service center just attempted to pass vehicle back to me with just a buffing out of the scratches which did not visibly correct. Was so easy to still see scratches. Was resolved and door painted.

    We had never had any history of problems in past with other manufaturers. So now am just evaluating if just this dealership, or a general practice at Toyota dealerships. I plan to watch what happens in future and make sure all documented each visit. Was aware of these issues long before all of the investigations started, and had plans in place for my future interactions already.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    you're saying that NHTSA chart is bogus? Read this chart below!
    Same things many of the complaints in Toyota, VW, Volvo, GM, Ford are stupid and can't be duplicated!

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124235858link title
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Toyota coverup

    Two weeks ago in this column I called Toyota's investigation into its unintended acceleration problem a coverup. I was one of the first reporters to use the "C" word, which resulted in an appearance on the CBS Evening News to repeat those charges.

    While I had no inside information to draw that conclusion, looking at what's transpired from the perspective of an engineer with product development experience, it was obvious that Toyota was being untruthful. The company had failed to provide details about the tests it had conducted, and didn't make its engineers available to discuss the issues. Since my column first appeared, much more evidence has come out that has substantiated these charges.

    We've learned that over the past seven years Toyota and NHTSA, our government regulatory agency, have received more than 1,600 complaints. Sudden acceleration has allegedly caused as many as 34 deaths, including an off-duty highway patrolman and his family here in San Diego.

    Internal Toyota memos now show that it bragged about saving $100 million in recalls by successfully negotiating with NHTSA regulators to curtail its investigations. During this time Toyota told complaining owners that their problems were due to faulty floor mats, including one owner that later died when his car crashed after suddenly accelerating ... with his floor mats stored in his trunk.
    Even the most recent fix, adding a metal shim to the accelerator mechanism to prevent full engagement of a toothed part, seems a stretch to me. The fact that the problem of unintended acceleration increased dramatically when Toyota went to a computer controlled accelerator system, leads me to think the problem may be related to an electrical or software glitch.

    Incredibly, the coverup continues. A Toyota vice president, Bob Carter, recently stated at the National Automobile Dealers Association convention in Orlando, Fla., that "Testing by Toyota, NHTSA and Exponent, an outside consulting firm hired by Toyota, has found no evidence of problems with Toyota's electronics.
    "There is no problem with the electronic throttle system in Toyotas," Carter said. "There's not anything that can even remotely lead you in that direction." Carter said Exponent was told to "tear the components apart to try to find anything wrong and initial tests could find nothing."

    While it may be true that during the couple of months Exponent ran its tests it found no problem, Carter's conclusion that "there is no problem" is neither accurate nor a logical conclusion. Two months of testing six or eight randomly chosen cars does not prove that there is not a problem. First, the sample size of the test is far too small to be able to make any valid conclusions concerning its entire fleet of cars. Second, it did not test the specific cars already known to have the problem. Statements such as Carter's continue to mislead the public and demonstrate that Toyota is still not serious about getting to the bottom of the problem.

    It's now time for Toyota's president, Akio Toyoda, to move aside the marketing, PR and damage control people who just obfuscate the issues. He needs to take personal charge, do what's in the best interests of its customers, and make safety its first priority, ahead of profit.

    Here's what Toyota should be doing if it really wants to find the cause of unintended acceleration:

    1. Instruct every engineer or Toyota repairman who has had any involvement in the design, manufacturing or testing of unintended acceleration to come forward with what they know and report their findings to Mr. Toyoda directly.
    2. Request that every customer who's experienced the problem of unintended acceleration bring their cars into their Toyota dealer in exchange for a loaner.
    3. Bring 1,000 of Toyota's best engineers to the United States to fan out and examine these cars that have been turned in to the dealers. Subject these cars to extensive testing to try replicate the reported problems.
    It's much more likely that a population of cars that have experienced the problems will yield better results than testing a few new cars.
    4. Buy back samples of these cars that indicate anomalies and subject them to additional testing in Japan.
    5. Have this team of Toyota engineers present their findings for peer review to a team of U.S. experts in electronics, software, testing and quality control from academia, the automotive industry and NHTSA, and then report directly to the public.

    Mr. Toyoda's testimony this past week was filled with apologies, but did little to reassure us that they are doing everything possible to get to the bottom of these problems. He has still failed to explain why the company did little to test for electronic problems, yet keeps ruling that out as a cause, saying he was "absolutely confident" there was no problem with the electronics, and repeated the company's stance that sudden accelerations were caused by either a sticking gas pedal or a misplaced floor mat.

    I predict that comment will come back to haunt Toyoda and his company. Evidence is already surfacing that some university experts have been able to prove the contrary.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,540
    >2. Request that every customer who's experienced the problem of unintended acceleration bring their cars into their Toyota dealer in exchange for a loaner.
    3. Bring 1,000 of Toyota's best engineers to the United States to fan out and examine these cars that have been turned in to the dealers. Subject these cars to extensive testing to try replicate the reported problems.
    It's much more likely that a population of cars that have experienced the problems will yield better results than testing a few new cars.
    4. Buy back samples of these cars that indicate anomalies and subject them to additional testing in Japan

    Have toyo buy back all the cars where anyone has had a problem, whether toyo's service writer kept it off the work order or not.

    Ship those cars to Japan and have the toyota engineers, marketing, heads, all drive them. Give cars to the US head honchos as well. Let them take the chance on being the one with the jackpot car that has UIA :sick: .

    That will show their confidence in their product. :blush:

    I'll bet the problem's etymology would be found a WHOLE lot faster with the toyota folks having to drive the cars that had at least once exhibited the problem

    Bet they wouldn't tolerate having the UIA problem blamed on the driver, either. :P
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited March 2010
    "..At WOT the two sensor voltages can in fact overlap.."

    No,...NOT.

    Someone is reading the chart/graph incorrectly.

    The useable range, actual voltage "span" for the gas pedal position sensors, from idle to WOT, is 0.80 volts to 2.6/4.5 volts for sensor #1 and 1.6 to 3.4/5.0 volts for sensor #2.

    There is NO question that the Toyota/Denso system should have "faulted" when the two signals were initially shorted together. From reading the factory shop/repair manual it is pretty clear that the voltage tolerance, less than 0.02 volts, for detecting that the two sensor signals are shorted together was not well thought out. IMMHO less than 0.40 volts, or even 0.20 volts, would be more in the proper range.

    So the "mistake" Dr. Gilbert made was not using a more robust short, say a copper buss bar. ;)

    The way you describe the Kia system sounds very much like they use the very same NipponDenso system as does Toyota, highly likely so in any case.

    Has anyone shorted, "casually" shorted, these two signals together on a Kia to confirm that the monitor detects the short ..??
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,176
    edited March 2010
    I posted that very chart to show just how little research these people do before they put something online. The bottom line. Where do these reports come from? I have gone over the NHTSA ODI website and fail to verify what any of them are trying to get US to believe. They all seem to cherry pick bits and pieces to strengthen a position. Take the NPR link you just posted.

    The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration identified 251 complaints alleging sudden acceleration and related problems for vehicles in model year 2009. A breakdown by vehicle make follows.

    What are the related problems to UA? Is it the fact that you cannot stop a Toyota when it is at high speed with WOT? It is all a way to spin any data to say what you want it to say. I don't own a VW Audi. I own a Toyota that has never had a recall. The last of the well built Sequoias. So it makes no difference to me. It is just such a large number of complaints on the newer Toyota and Lexus vehicles that even the lazy bunch at the NHTSA could not ignore them.
  • kent19kent19 Posts: 1
    Accelerator problem is in the electronic "drive by wire". I had the identical problem in my new 2003 Mercedes SL500. The accelerator suddenly would shoot up to 6000 rpm. I had it towed to Mercedes 3 times and each time I was told there was nothing wrong and the "computer check" was normal. They inferred that I "didn't know how to drive a Mercedes". On the 3rd time, the mechanic who had just completed his "normal computer analysis" drove out of control out of the service area and nearly killed someone and nearly wrecked the car. Mercedes sent someone from Germany who spent a month before deciding it was the "accelerator actuator" in the drive by wire. Since then, Mercedes has installed a brake by-pass in case of unintended acceleration. I have have no problems since. Toyota needs to check with Mercedes
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