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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..Why aren't...."

    Because until "now" no one saw, foresaw, the need.

    The clutch went away.

    The mechanical coupling to the automatic transmssions went away.

    The mechanical coupling to the throttle went away.

    And no one noticed that there was no longer a way to uncouple a run-a-way engine.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 6,897
    Toyota has already suffered from losing a lot of their former reputation. Ford, GM, Nissan, and even Hyundai have built more positive reputation, in a short period of time (relatively). They're certainly taking large chunks of Toyota's customer base.

    But, Toyota is entering into an area of firsts, none of them good. Not sure of this, but 8.5M vehicle recalls, at least in such a short period of time, across such a broad range of products, for such a variety of maladies, have to be a first.
  • you can look up the transcript of AutoNation's last quarterly call - autoNation is the largest Toyota dealer in the country and they discussed at length how this whole fiasco will impact Toyota.

    the general consensus is that the long term impact to Toyota is minimal.
  • "No it is common sense not to entrust your life to a device you know isn't essential, that you can operate yourself."

    it depends on what you and the society consider essential. At the basic level, clothing, shelter, cars, tvs, computers, and pretty much 99% of what we use on a daily basis isn't "essential" in that you can certainly sustain your life without any of them.

    does that mean you should be walking around naked?
  • millwood0millwood0 Posts: 451
    edited February 2010
    "And no one noticed that there was no longer a way to uncouple a run-a-way engine."

    there is an engineering report by a west coast engineering firm (Exponent?) today on Toyota vehicles electronics systems. They bought 6 toyota / lexus vehicles last december and started to induce electronic problems in the vehicles to say if they couldn't induce run-away cars / unintended acceleration.

    In spite of their herculean efforts, they could only get lower engine output - apparently the computers will detect sensory malfunction and will default into a fail-safe (lump-home) mode.

    the report IS funded by Toyota.

    from WSJ:

    "Exponent has so far been unable to induce, through electrical disturbances to the system, either unintended acceleration or behavior that might be a precursor to such an event, despite concerted efforts toward this goal,"

    "In December, Toyota retained Exponent "to understand customer reports and claims of unintended acceleration in vehicles" which use its electronic throttle-control system. Exponent says Toyota didn't limit the scope or budget of its investigation. A person familiar with the study says testing and analysis by Exponent will continue for several months."

    "The evaluation was conducted by engineers and technicians specializing in mechanical, electrical, and automotive engineering. It included a series of tests such as driving tests with anomalies imposed on the electronics and characterizing the sensitivity of the system to aberrations and noise imposed on individual components.

    The tests looked at how the electronic sensors in the gas pedal and in the throttle body perform in different vehicles in normal and stressed situations. When failures were induced in these sensors, Exponent says the electronic control module detected the problem.

    "Imposing these perturbations resulted in a significant drop in power rather than an increase," Exponent says in the study. "In all cases, when a fault was imposed, the vehicle entered a fail-safe mode."

    In the event of any electronic failure, Toyota says its system is designed to default to fail-safe, or limp-home, mode where the engine power is significantly reduced."
  • any of you thinking that you are better qualified by Exponent should probably step up to the plate, :)
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    edited February 2010
    In Exponent hasn't yet asked for, and recieved, the firmware source code with full documentation, flow charts, etc, then they are simply pissing upwind, and a HIGH wind at that. Of course they would then probably need to hire the TOP CODER from the original source company in order to even begin to understand the code, let alone be able to troubleshoot/debug it.

    I wish them luck in any case.
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    autoNation is the largest Toyota dealer in the country and they discussed at length how this whole fiasco will impact Toyota.

    the general consensus is that the long term impact to Toyota is minimal.


    Well DUHH!! What did you think they would say? You think they are going to say hmmm i guess we are screwed now. :lemon: :confuse:
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "... apparently the computers will detect sensory malfunction and will default.."

    And if the computer itself has the malfunction...DEADLY EMBRACE within the code execution maybe...??

    When the battery in my '01 911/996 was marginal I would not have even taken notice except shortly after starting to drive away the instrument panel would light up like a Christmas tree. I could switch the ignition off and restart and everything would be fine until the next time, RARE next time.

    I finally decided to pay attention to the fact that when starting the engine was turning over a bit slowly. Once I replaced the battery the engine would then start INSTANTLY and all those symptoms disappeared.

    My guess, "uneducated" guess, was that with the low voltage during engine cranking some of the ancillary ECUs, ABS, PSM, etc, were dropping out of operation, code crawling into a hole....
  • berriberri Posts: 4,006
    I'm thinking if something else ends up involved it may be the cruise control interface. If computer coding, EMI, etc. is an issue it seems to me it would also show up in other makes in some iteration. Toyota doesn't have a lock on drive by wire or computer controlled cars. Throughout the years there have been sporadic reports of odd cruise control behavior in varies makes of vehicles. Regardless, a brake override would be a welcome addition, but I'm thinking driver error is probably the most frequent cause. Its good they are testing other things out though.

    I like the sudden increase in Toyota UA claims though, probably a combo of media hysteria and televised legal firms soliciting a buck. Reminds me of how whenever there is a city transit accident, if there were 6 people on the bus, at least 18 show up claiming injury after the accident. America - home of the lawyer on commision!
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    edited February 2010
    "In December, Toyota retained Exponent "to understand customer reports and claims of unintended acceleration in vehicles" which use its electronic throttle-control system.

    Amazing!! Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted, and which Toyota is paying for. Next thing you know my Congressmen will be adding little addendums to bills, to help the lobbyists who just took them and their families on a fact-finding mission thru the Caribbean. Anyway, my friends and I will do a second study to verify the first. Where's Toyota's phone #? ;)
    I would guess Toyota will pay pretty well, as I'd certainly pay a lot to have some independent-proof (hahaha!) when the lawsuits start. Maybe Toyota can see if they can arrange some of the OJ jurors to be involved? :D
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    what does that say about the robustness of the code?

    I guess the writer of Toyota's code is god-like! :D I thought that was only the emporor in Japan? So the emperor must be moon-lighting? :D
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,701
    Toyota has already suffered from losing a lot of their former reputation. Ford, GM, Nissan, and even Hyundai have built more positive reputation, in a short period of time (relatively). They're certainly taking large chunks of Toyota's customer base.

    But, Toyota is entering into an area of firsts, none of them good. Not sure of this, but 8.5M vehicle recalls, at least in such a short period of time, across such a broad range of products, for such a variety of maladies, have to be a first.


    Again, disagree. The jury is out. Nobody looks objectively at numbers. You may be a bit too wishful. It could come true if Toyota screws up, but IMHO if they are honest from here on out and no more problems occur, their damage will not be long lasting.

    GM had 40 years of trash and that takes a lot of years to climb out of the hole. Toyota had 40 years of almost sterling reputation and even a few years of incidents that are admittedly rare (at least the UA problems) don't destroy that reputation.

    Ford's lawyers said let the Pinto buyers burn because it was too expensive to design a decent gas tank. That is worse than Toyota.

    Again, if Toyota does well from here on, they will only suffer a year or two. If they screw up or more problems discovered, it may get to what you say. But it is not there yet. I would personally still trust a Toyota more than a C or most GMs.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    Toyota is paying the wrong company. They need to pay the folks that are doing them the most damage. The unhappy customers.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,680
    Ford's lawyers said let the Pinto buyers burn because it was too expensive to design a decent gas tank. That is worse than Toyota.

    How do you know that Toyota has not hid their findings on the flaky DBW system? There is evidence to that end.

    GM had 40 years of trash

    That is so much baloney. I owned 5 GM trucks from 1988- 2005. The only one that gave me problems was the 2005. Sounds like GM and Toyota headed down hill together. Just talking to my plumber. His 2002 GM 1 ton van has 255k miles with only a bad water pump. GM cars may have been junk. I have never owned one. Did the frames rust and fall apart like recent Toyotas? I think the downfall of Toyota since the late 1990s is actually understated.
  • mnfmnf Posts: 404
    edited February 2010
    Thats just like saying the Government or the UAW has no interest in Toyota failing DUHH...... ;)
  • "I guess the writer of Toyota's code is god-like!"

    you guessed wrong.
  • "And if the computer itself has the malfunction...DEADLY EMBRACE within the code execution maybe...??"

    you apparently aren't aware of watchdog timer, something they usually mention during the first lecture on Embedded Programming 101, and they usually start to teach students about it in the 3rd or 4th lecture on the same class.

    "When the battery in my '01 911/996 was marginal I would not have even taken notice except shortly after starting to drive away the instrument panel would light up like a Christmas tree. I could switch the ignition off and restart and everything would be fine until the next time, RARE next time."

    mostly modern mcus run off 1.8v - 2.2v, and some older stuff run off 3.3v - 5v. Your battery (lead-acid) is considered fully depleted with an output voltage of 9.4v, and most systems light up a warning if it falls below 10.8v.

    so to think that your lead-acid batteries can fall to the extent that it would no long power a mcu is foolish and ignorant of the basic knowledge about electronics.

    "My guess, "uneducated" guess, was that with the low voltage during engine cranking some of the ancillary ECUs, ABS, PSM, etc, were dropping out of operation, code crawling into a hole.... "

    never heard of brown-outs, BOR resets, etc.?

    apparently so.
  • " Who would have imagined that Exponent could support the exact result that Toyota wanted,"

    you are basically accusing Exponent of having no integrity, without any factual basis to support your allegation.

    " and which Toyota is paying for. "

    who else do you think should be paying for this? GM? you? the plaintiff's bar association?
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,071
    From my experience, GM cars have been excellent - from my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe to my current 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance.
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