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I like manuals because.....

Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,023
...(fill in the blank.)

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Comments

  • ray80ray80 Posts: 1,288
    Because it can add to the overall driving experiance if I chose it to. (also feel more comfortable in winter events, not that we have many here in the northeast)
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,673
    I can select the gear I want when I want to- and I need not worry about whether a microprocessor is going to second-guess me.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2011
    As Roadburner and Ray have mentioned, who better to be in charge of the right gear than the driver who can SEE, that all of a sudden traffic has slowed to a stop right as you were about to accelerate your auto hard to merge but then conditions changed? But guess what? Conditions changed again right away and you see your spot/lane where you can get into and leave the crumby mess of incompetence in your wake. In most new autos, you'd be left in no-go limbo for anywhere from a fraction of, to a few crucial seconds while the processor in the new auto tries to figure out "just what is it for sure do you want me to do?"
    These processing delays are more evident in the newest autos because of the never-ending search of fuel mileage that can compete with fending off the parasitic losses that only an auto can exploit. Just a few of which involves torque converters that communicate (albeit slowly at times and aggressively at poor times) with shutting off fuel injectors and a host of many other engine and ESC computers, and often the worst decisions made at the worst possible times. All of that electronic intervention, can all be so easily avoided with a manual transmission. It gives you the type of control that is directly linked to your eyes/brain/feet/arm/hand etc. All actions that only an auto could dream of being truly in charge of with the predictable results that a manual in the right hands takes for granted only a few hundred or thousand times a day depending on the length and type of your commute.

    So all that said, is there a place in the world for autos? Of course there most certainly is. Someone who has poor use of their left leg would be an ideal candidate. As would someone who drives 70% of all their miles in literal stop-and-go congested traffic. And certain other unique but rarer situations.

    But with a manual, I like:

    - I like the control of the car. Ultimate, unencumbered control of getting the engine torque to the road...and in all the different driving conditions and varied road surfaces...imagine the concept.
    - I like how it forces interactivity with your vehicle that an auto, any auto, cannot begin to match.
    - I like the less complexity than an auto. And lest you pooh pooh the complexity, consider the lack of sensors that can go bad, the lack of wiring connections that are prone to corrosion. Consider for a moment, how universally safer a manual is if you are in a car that has the infamous apparent SUA? For anyone questioning this, please cite even ONE example, (worldwide if you like) of SUA, with a manual transmission.
    - I like the longevity potential in most well designed manuals.
    - I like the lower cost to repair if and when it ever does become necessary.
    - I like the lower cost of admission to purchase the car.
    - I like the ability to provide more efficient fuel economy in the vast majority of the right hands and driving a manual properly than any auto.
    - I like the lower weight of a manual.
    - I like the fact that if another road user is using a manual, then they are in all likelihood a far safer driver to be sharing the road with, because, assuming they are not a manual and clutch-abusing user, actually get the relationship of friction to the road and what all is actually entailed by the engine and tranny to apply that forward or retarded motion of the vehicle.
    - I like that with a manual, parasitic loss of torque pales in comparison to an auto.
    - I like that i can bump or push-start the car with low battery gone bad.
    - I like that I don't have to have the cost, weight or complexity of tranny oil cooling lines that tap off my radiator.
    - did I mention ultimate CONTROL of the vehicle?
    - at ALL times?

    There are bound to be a few likes I might be forgetting, but I'm sure you must get the idea by now.

    Open-minded converts invited.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,261
    Don't forget the one about the built in anti-theft deterrent since most crooks won't know how to shift a manual.

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I did forget to mention a prop for an auto but I guess I was covered when I said certain other rarer situations. But it occurred to me this morning that I didn't mention that special autos have been desired for certain types of racing. Mostly drag. But while I don't follow drags much, I wouldn't be surprised if even that use has been replaced with dual clutch type trannys, altho as quick as their shifting is, not sure if it is quite as fast as an auto. I know they do use air solenoid shifters at times (very common in bikes) but I'm not sure if longevity/$ becomes an issue with those on the really super high hp applications.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Yes! Good one! I had forgotten about that one. :shades:
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,673
    edited January 2011
    Don't forget the one about the built in anti-theft deterrent since most crooks won't know how to shift a manual.

    I remember reading about a case where 3 punks drove into a subdivision and decided to burglarize a house. When the police showed up they caught the driver but the other two kids got away. They were found a few minutes later sitting in the "getaway" car. It was a manual- and it turned out that neither doofus could drive a stick.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    I wish I had saved those stories I've read about where thieves couldn't figure out how to drive a stick. Too funny.

    Of course, I agree with gimme's list a few posts ago. For me, the advantages of a manual outweigh autos by so much I can't believe that no one wants to buy them any longer.

    If nothing else, when I test drove an I4 Accord back in 2006, I humored the salesman and took an auto out for a spin, then drove the stick. I couldn't believe the difference in quickness and response... especially after hearing about how "peppy" the auto was.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,693
    I was on the lot recently looking for a stick shift Civic, an increasingly rare beast at least in dealer stock. Anyway, they had none, so I also "humored" the salesman by driving an automatic, which was responsive for an automatic but wasn't even in the running compared with the manual.

    It's such a shame that Honda dealers have cut way back on the number of manuals they keep in stock, since Honda makes such a great manual.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    tallman and nippon..Yes, and the smaller the engine, the more significant the acceleration gains.

    Here's a scenario I try to tell anyone who asks (all my friends and family know my respect for manuals {and stuff about cars} so I get asked) me when anyone goes car shopping. If it's a small car especially, this applies.
    You have your A/C on, in 5th gear, going up a hill, and want to accelerate to pass someone or merge onto a freeway. So you drop down to 4th, but just then you felt the A/C cycle on, so I do one of two things, depending on how easy it is to reach the A/C button...I either reach over quick and hit the A/C off, or I go down to 3rd gear. I do the former if I want to save gas, and the latter if not. But my point is that I saved gas compared to an auto in both those situations.

    With the auto, you are in 4th OD (or 5th and lately 6th, and is why the 6 speeds really do help save gas, except still very rare in small 1.4 and 1.5 litre sized cars) and you are about to do that same pass or merge, so you had pressed the accelerator to get the tranny to downshift to 3rd, that uses gas to do that unless you pulled it back into 3rd yourself, then the same A/C cycled at that same bad time, so now in order to get any serious urge, now you are faced with having to floor the accelerator to get the tranny to go down yet another gear into 2nd. Now that little engine is sucking big gas at high revs.

    But with the stick, you had control. Ultimate control to pick 4th or even 3th gear for that matter right from the start, without having to use any big foot stuffed into the accelerator pedal, getting it to down change.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    It's such a shame that Honda dealers have cut way back on the number of manuals they keep in stock, since Honda makes such a great manual.

    Even sadder is that Honda is no longer even offering a stick in their highest trimlines. :cry:
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,385
    Gee, makes my 00 Accord EX a rare and no doubt desirable car....
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    The EX is still available in a stick but not if you want leather seats (EX-L). And the only way to get a V6 with a stick is to buy a coupe. So sad.

    I have an 06 EX-L w/navi... very rare. :(
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,385
    You have a sedan with a 6 and a stick? I'm jealous!

    When we bought that 00 Accord we wanted a stick and a sunroof. The EX was the only model with that and included four wheel discs as well. It's up somewhere in the 200k range. My daughter is driving it these days.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    No, I have an I4 with a stick. The model year was 06.

    Old Accords are great. My son has my old 95 EX with a manual. I think it has about 230k now.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,385
    Ah! There were a couple of years where you could get a V6 sedan with a manual but they didn't sell at all. I'd have grabbed one if I was in the market at the time.

    oh, yeah, old Accords are wonderful. My first was an 80 sedan. That funky green that they liked back then.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    I had some good friends who had one of those green Accords from the 80's. I hated that color. IIRC, the interior was just as green.

    Honda is putting its money on VCM in the current generation V6 sedan. I don't know if that excludes manuals automatically but that's what they are going with. The coupe doesn't have VCM so the stick is still an option there. Interestingly enough, there is no price break if you get the stick on the V6 coupe but there is on the I4.
  • fezofezo Posts: 9,385
    Indeed it had an interior that same green. Looks silly now but at the time I liked it enough. In that same time frame they had a light blue, a tan and a dark red. Since I was buying used and a 4 door Accord was what I wanted I had to go with what it was or wait out another one.

    Our second Accord, a second generation was a dark blue which was much nicer. I'm betting I'd have gotten 200K out of that one if some old guy hadn't run a stop sign and t-boned me back in 1992. My wife still talks about that car - very fondly.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    " Interestingly enough, there is no price break if you get the stick on the V6 coupe but there is on the I4."

    Are they both 6 speeds? If so, then might be optioned a bit differently? They play around sometimes and you're not suppose to notice.

    I guess we can now officially refer to the good ol' days of the past.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Are they both 6 speeds? If so, then might be optioned a bit differently? They play around sometimes and you're not suppose to notice.

    The stick is 6 speeds w/o VCM, the manual is 5 with VCM. Other options are the same. Of course, even at the same price, the manual would be my choice. :)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    What is VCM? When you said stick, were you referring to the auto? I only ask cuz you said the 5 sp is manual. Sorry I am not up to speed with new Hondas.
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Oops, I meant the automatic has 5 speeds. The manual has 6.

    VCM stands for Variable Cylinder Management. Essentially it shuts off either 2 or 3 of the 6 cylinders when you are cruising at highway speeds in order to save gas. Some people have complained about the roughness and others don't notice. There's a whole forum around here about it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Oh, is that the same tech that was used years ago in the 3.5 V6 that was an optional engine I believe in the Ody van? They claimed about 3 or 4 mpg better.
    Or is VCM brand new?

    Sounds like what they did with Dodge V8's a few years ago.

    I guess they have perfected it since the old 8-6-4 in the Cadillac's eh? They were a disaster. I guess with today's electronics they can shut of the fuel injectors to the non firing cylinders, and not have the cyl walls washed down with gas.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,897
    Perfected? Depends on who you ask. Some Accord owners aren't fans.
    Honda Accord VCM

    I have no personal experience with this technology - just observing what others are posting.

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  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    Yeah, same principal that GM used.

    And yes, they use that in the Ody and now the Pilot too. The Accord Crosstour also has it... but alas, the Crosstour has no manual available. :(
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    :( to be honest, Kirstie, I'm just not that surprised. I was hoping to give them (Honda, and I wonder.. but probably Dodge also?) the assumed benefit of the doubt as technology progresses. I guess we can deduce (rightfully so) that some things shouldn't be messed with.

    The whole principle of shutting off cylinders that are still connected to (and prone to the exact same reciprocating mass, less a power-stroke) the same crankshaft, I have never really been onboard with, no matter how optimistic I have tried to be about the prospects.
    Just goes to show..trust your instincts..
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited February 2011
    You know, my bias towards my confidence in Honda as an engine builder, does get questioned from time-to-time. And this is a perfect example.

    Another, is my (presently still owned and used but not without some serious internal bits attention) 5 hp Honda snowblower. The governor failed (due to a very cheap plastic {actually nylon, but with not enough pork} gear on the very inside of the engine to control the governor. Briggs has perfected that very same governor operation but instead, with a super cheap but effective external, wind-vane governor control. So a person might reflect on this as an over-engineered and complex governor.
    "Mr.Honda...you aren't always the perfect engine designer/builder. Don't rest on your laurels just yet. As consumers, (some of us) are watching what you screw up".

    But lest I get accused of getting on their case too much, I'll add that the engine in my CRV is so smooooth, that if, at times, I have the tunes very loud, sometimes it takes me a few minutes to realize that I forgot to upshift to 5th from 4th as I made my way from a 30 to 35 to 50 mph zone. That's an impressive compliment in case anyone was not sure why I mentioned it..
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    sometimes it takes me a few minutes to realize that I forgot to upshift to 5th from 4th

    I've had that exact thing happen to me in my 06 Accord. My 95 was much noisier and I could easily hear the engine.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I think they are the same engine aren't they? 04, 05 and 06's. Might be tuned slightly different. Mine is 2354cc 160 hp at 6000 rpm 162 lb-ft at 3600 rpm and CR of 9.6:1. If I were to guess, I'd say in the Accord they might have bumped hp a bit and maybe lost a few lb-ft torque, or if not, then peak is likely above 4000 rpm.

    Technically though, no two engines come off the assembly line in exactly the same perfect balance. One can extra buttery smooth, and the other one beside it not so much. That becomes more evident if the engine design is a bit raspy to begin with, except non are ever buttery smooth.. :sick: (GM's Quad 4, Ford's old 2.3, Chrysler's well...many of their 4's) etc
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