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Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego

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Comments

  • We should keep this to the 500, but you know, the union along with the costs and restrictions that come by working with it is one of the largest reasons companies leave the USA.

     

    Look at any indusry, they all say US labor costs are too high. The clothing industry left completely, and now all of those "human rights" protestors wear clothes made by slave children in some forgotten part of the world.

     

    Managment shares some blame, but now they are on target, its not the 70's anymore, and with the new world its that the US auto industry is dying, and millions of americans risk their jobs because the government wont act and the rich union bosses dont care.

     

    If they cared they would do 2 things, 1 they would lower all wages of all workers, along with forcing higher copay for insurance, and 2 they would lobby to get some dam aid from the govt who seems too willing to let american men and women bow down to Japanese masters.

     

    Case and point: at the new Nissan truck plant, workers were told they had to take off there wedding rigns and other jewelry because it scratches the paint on the trucks.

     

    And i'm pretty sure the workers there are not UAW. And look! the Titan has a NAV system...

     

    I just think if it werent for the UAW ford could have put more into the 500, thats all. I know its tough b/c giving controll to managment would screw workers, but we need a better compromise or else soon there won't be anything left to compromise.
  • That's your argument? It cost too much to build an engine?

     

        

       I see Ford spent a nickel on the CVT. Those ain't cheap. What's more important to invest in, a powerful, yet efficient engine you can use in up to a half-dozen vehicles for ten years, or a CVT, which is only good on 1-2 engines of similar size, and are worthless unless people like the engines they're linked to?

     

       Hw about VVti? That could breathe life into these tired souls Ford keeps exhuming.

     

       I don't want excuses from Ford anymore! They've been making cars for 100 years! And it's like they've forgotten why a car sells. They have enough money to make an engine that someone WANTS TO buy (retail). They certainly aren't wasting money on making the cars good-looking!

     

      

       And people WANT TO buy Fords!!! COME ON!

     

      

       DrFill
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Initially the engineering of the CVT is expensive, but as more are being built, the costs deminish. Also CVT's do not generally need to be fitted to just 2 engines, they can be used on various engines as long as it doesn't surpass the torque capacities. So far the CVT's have been well received by consumer's.

     

    VTT/VCT are already being used in a a couple Ford engines already.
  • ktnrktnr Posts: 255
    I drove a rental Taurus last year and was surprised at how rough and noisy the V-6 was. I actually popped the hood to see if there were any obvious signs of distress on the engine.

     

    Does anyone here know if the late-model Taurus comes with a 3.0L V-6 engine other than the Duratec? I'm just wondering if the engine I experienced could have been one other that what is in the 500?
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,564
    Your rental Taurus was probably the standard Vulcan pushrod V-6 as oppposed to the DOHC Duratech V-6 used in the 500. The DOHC is quite smooth and reasonably quiet, though probably noisier and just a bit "rougher" than the Toyota and Honda V-6's.

     

    I don't find the Duratech to be objectionably noisy in my 2000 Taurus, but some people will probably think it is. It is easy to visually know what engine is in Tauri as there is a tag just behind the front wheel well. If no tag, it is the base Vulcan. If it has a little leafy tag it is the Vulcan modified to run on up 85% ethanol fuel. If it says 24V DOHC it is the Duratech.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    If it was a rental, chances are it was the Vulcan V6. It's a noisy and unrefined little thing that needs to go out to pasture. Amazingly it's quite a bulletproof engine overall, and never been the source of any issues in the past, but it's fuel economy, unrefiness, and moderate output doesn't help it's case. It'll be killed in the next few years....
  • Where do you see that Ford spent a nickel on the CVT? As i understand they outsourced the job, isn't it the same one used in the nissan murano? Im not sure on this point.

    I know they have a joint 6-speed comming out with GM. Isn't the current 6-speed built by a supplier partly owned by toyota?

     

    If you think it does not cost too much to build an engine, check out the profit statements of toyota and ford. Toyota, by importing and working largly without the UAW, saves a boat load of money on overhead costs, and gains in the import arena with currency. All of that contributes to slash their marginal costs compared to ford.

     

    The result is that ford has less money left over to invest in engine development, and feature content. That's why the 500 has only about 200hp and no Nav system and NOT EVEN AN AIR FILTER!

     

    Its not that Ford doesn't know how to do it, they cannot afford to. That is my argument. Its not that ford is bieng cheap, like you suggest, but that they have higher costs, and less money to invest with.

     

    If they don't change this situation soon it will be a disaster in the long run for Ford, and the overall American economy.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    The CVT is built by the Ford Motor Company at Batavia, Ohio on Front Wheel Drive. Though developed by ZF, and originally the plant was in partnership with ZF, Ford and Ford alone owns and controls the Batavia plant.

     

    And the Five Hundred has an air filter. I know. I checked. How on earth and why would ANYONE build an engine without an air filter? Sheesh.

     

    Toyota engines and transmissions are built in part with parts from its plant in WEST VIRGINIA, hardly known for being friendly to nonunion employers or for being a low wage state. I don't recall either GM or Ford building engines or transmissions in West Virginia....
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Posts: 2,363
    ...the reference to "air filter" was probably meant to convey "cabin air filter", but that isn't the point. What is the point is that there is a subset of people here who are convinced the car has some number of defects which will make it a marketplace failure. Others disagree. After nearly 2000 posts, the one group has not convinced the other, despite repeating the same arguments over and over.

     

    For myself, I think it would be a good idea to let the marketplace have a chance to speak for itself. Seems a little early in the game to decide. And, I have to add, which probably reveals my bias, since when was 0-60 in less than 9 seconds "inadequate performance"? Only in America, I guess, like so many other things....
  • nedc2nedc2 Posts: 192
    I think he's talking about a cabin air filter, which the Five Hundred doesn't have. I'd prefr to have one, and the Five Hundred was originally supposed to have one but I imagine it got left out because of the maintenance issues, with Contours and Tauruses alot of people were supposedly showing up with clogged filters complaining about por AC or heater performance, I know a cousin of mine did. As for Nav. I wouldn't pay for it, but I think the car should be pre-wired for it so it's an easier aftermarket or dealer install. The cars features make it a perfect work vehicle for sales reps and real estate agents, people who can really use the nav. option.
  • I think jrct9454 summed up 2000 posts well. As one in this group for some time, I observed..

     

    * There was great anticipatation from loyal Ford fans and newcomers.

    * There was substantial information prior to cars being available to the public.

    * Many people went to see the car upon introduction and posted comments, others read and based opinion on published specs.

    * All either loved the car or felt cheated.

    * Those in the latter camp had issues with horsepower, or features or quality.

     

    I am one of those non-Ford folks who anticipated and was disappointed (In my case quality). I think the car will be a success, but not as great a one as could have been. But, let the market place speak.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Another good point that ran across my eyes today...40% of 500 Sales so far have been to none-Ford owning customers.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Don't you mean that forty percent of vehicles traded in for a Ford Five Hundreds were non-Ford makes? No one asked ME if I owned any other Fords!!! (and I did trade in a Chevy Impala)
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Yes I think that's what I ment, although maybe I stated it another way... I've been on Nyquil most of the day, sorry.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    It's okay, man. We appreciate you! :)
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    testdrove FWD Montego the other day. I couldn't believe how powerless the engine was, and how noisy the car is. I thought this particular car was messed up; the sales guy told me - no, it's ok, they all are exactly like this one. My V6 Mountaineer feels like Mustang GT comparing to this car. May be Montego/500 should get the 4L from Mountaineer? I testdrove Grand Marquise right after Montego; I drove this car on many occasions before, I new what to expect from it. Grand M is not a speed demon, but comparing to Montego it feels like one. It's also so much more comfortable, with approx. same interior dimensions. 2004 Ultimate costs less than Montego. If I had to choose now which one to get, my money would be spent on Grand Marquise, hands down - and I am in my 30-ties, so this is not age-driven decision. I suspect depriciation of Montego/500 will be horrendous.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Well, to each his own. I BOUGHT a Five Hundred, and you couldn't GIVE me a Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. That is why car makers sell different models! By the way, hope you enjoy the all wheel drive on the Grand Marquis at least half as much as I do mine on the Five Hundred. And my trunk is much larger and more practical than the Vic/GM, as is the back seat....
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    what mpg are you getting with AWD, if I may ask?

     

    I am afraid, I will not take any of them.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    About 23 in town, 27 on the road...compared to 15/16 in town, 31 on the road for my FWD 3800 Impala LS. I am quite pleasantly surprised. The large tank means that fillups can be as much as $35 US though! :)
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    FSV,

     

    You drove the FWD/6 Speed, probably an SE model, confirm that for me...If so, the CVT/AWD/SEL-LIM might clear both of the issues you encountered. SEL/LIM have more soundproofing, and the CVT makes the most of the engine and feels sprightly over the 6 speed unit.

     

    " My V6 Mountaineer feels like Mustang GT comparing to this car. May be Montego/500 should get the 4L from Mountaineer?"

     

    Oh no, that wouldn't be an improvement. The Cologne V6 is much noisier than the Duratec, which is why it was chosen over the 4.0L Cologne V6. Plus, the Cologne V6 hasn't been adapted for FWD mounting, therefore it's only seen duty as a RWD. Which is why it's being used in this years new 2005 Mustang as the base engine. It's ok for it to be noisy in THAT vehicle, since the Mustang's nature allows it. And since the Cologne V6 will eventually be killed off in the next few years, Ford just didn't want to take that direction.

     

    " I suspect depriciation of Montego/500 will be horrendous."

     

    Actually 48% after 3 years, almost near what you might get from some other well known vehicles like Camry/Accord, etc. Actually the GMarquis has a much high depreciation rate.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Actually, he said he drove a Montego. Don't both trim levels of that car have the same insulation levels?
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Mercury has Convinience, Luxury and Premier, Assending in that order. Luxury and Premier, have the added "Deluxe sound" NVH package.

     

    http://media.ford.com/products/presskit_display.cfm?vehicle_id=10- 53&press_section_id=402&make_id=94

     

    Source: Ford Media
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Posts: 2,287
    Actually, I think the standard level is Luxury, with Premier as the upgrade. There is no base called convenience...at least in the USA (and no Mercury in Canada, right?)

     

    See, for instance:

     

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/mercury/montego/sedan/large/index- .html?tid=edmunds.n.typemindex.content.num78.0.*
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    Convenience was a last minute pull-out, it might re-appear...
  • "Toyota engines and transmissions are built in part with parts from its plant in WEST VIRGINIA, hardly known for being friendly to nonunion employers or for being a low wage state. I don't recall either GM or Ford building engines or transmissions in West Virginia...."

     

    You would make a great politician lol. This is classic. "Made with parts" deal. So much is left out of this statement it won't hold glue let alone water.

     

    It is a fact that Toyota as well as most japanese automakers stay away from unions and thus have lower cost operations. Where is the actual engine made? the windows? the interrior plastics? you will find 90% and up are non -union. There is a reason Toyota has insane profits, while not #1 in sales, and its b/c they have better margins.

     

    The fact that one plant may make half a piston for the rest of the engine doesn't mean that toyota getting porked by the unions like ford or GM. It means that Toyota has as little as it can afford to be out of union hands.

     

    The 500 has union written all over it, from the lack of a Cabin air filter (yea i did mean that, thanks guys) to the old engine to the lack of Nav and inadequate padding of seats.

     

    It is an unfair marketplace were if you are a foreigner you have a better time than if you are a domestic. I think we can all agree the 500 would be a better car if Ford had Toyotas magins. In fact, it would be the next gen Avan.

     

    Hey there are a few mistakes that are not the fault of unions or the currency situation, can anyone please explain why the front footwells of such a big and otherwise comfortable car are so narrow? The footwells on the GM are so much better, yet its an older car. People would be expecting to have room to move around in such a big car but i guess not... Has this botherred anyone? I know this issue surfaced briefly here than dissapeared. Would this turn off customers?

    johnclineii Please don't take offence to my post, its just that your statement is very misleading. I apologise if i have offended you...

     

    Otherwise its still a great car, I just lament because it could have been to ford what the taurus was when it first came out and saved the company.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Interesting review, fsv; caught my eye. I also have a Mountaineer, have had a bunch of them, actually. I also drove a Montego for a day. But my reaction was way different. Although I didn't buy one, I thought the power was quite adequate. I didn't feel under boosted in traffic at all. On ramps were handled satisfactorily, and I felt the cabin was actually nicely quiet. I really liked the seating position, and the cabin layout. It was overall, a very pleasant feeling, and my overall opinion at the end of the day when I took it back to my dealer was, "Call me when the Lincoln version comes out - we may have a deal". I like Grand Marquis-DeSades too, mind you, think they're grand old sleds for the money, especially, but I really think Ford is onto something with this tall sedan concept, and I think the design of the 500 is damn good. I just couldn't find much not to like about it.

     

    On the Navigation? Go over to the Lexus LS board, and read about 20 posts. Those people over there can't talk about anything BUT their Navigation systems, and the trouble they have getting the right DVD to make them work right! I always get the Neverlost when I rent from Hertz, but at home, I don't need it really, especially if it's not gonna work.
  • pnewbypnewby Posts: 277
    It also works in my Explorer, it worked well in my Lincoln LS too, and was really handy in the San Diego and Raleigh rentals. It's a Garmin 2610, and the new 2620 is even better. Under a grand in Sunday's ads, upgradeable when new maps are released and I didn't have to trade it in with the Lincoln. Tells me when to turn, where I am, and how to get back when I take a wrong turn.

    And even though the Freestyle is slower than the 500/Montego, it's OK for me, even after the LS V8.
  • fsvfsv Posts: 196
    1) I don't remember the trim level, but the sales person told me it's top FWD out there. 2)May be AWD version is an improvement, but I don't really want it - reason being years of experience with Subary Legacy, with wich I had 360+270 degrees spins on ice on more than 1 occasion. I got My Mountaineer this February, so, don't have any experience with it on slippery roads - yet. Thought it's wheel alighment, was in shop every 3 month for it - didn't help at all. New tires didn't work ether. 3)I have hard time to believe that CVT will last. 4)If 3L Duratec is to Ford now the same as 3.5L for Nissan, I can wait 'till smaller Zephyr/Fusion show up. This 3L engine is OK in Mazda6 - not a big difference from the four-banger, but gives slightly more power overall.
  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    Negative comments on Montego at http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml#table.

     

    I disagree with both writers in this case, however. I think that the Five Hundred and Montego were designed for maximum interior and cargo space, not as sport sedans, and I don't think that either writer appreciate this.
  • ANT14ANT14 Posts: 2,687
    He never has anything good to say about any domestic manufacture. I think it'll be a media event when he actually does.
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