Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

andres3

Actually, Audi calls the A3 a sportback! LOL.

But what is the difference between a wagon and a hatch? 5 vs. 3 doors, respectively? I think it has more to do with the style. A wagon is more vertical in the rear door/window. A hatch has a more horizontally placed rear door/window. That's just my opinion.

ggesq

"I think it got resolved awhile back that the TSX isn't really a performance sedan being that it's a rebadged European Accord. I dunno."

Yeah, the TSX is the European Accord but I disagree that it isn't a performance sedan. It's relatively light, nimble, has a 6MT and a high revving 4 cylinder VTEC engine. Additionally, it handles pretty good for a FWD sedan.

fedlawman

"If one loves BMWS and has no desire to buy another brand one is unlikely to be impressed by other brands."

If one loves to drive and is unimpressed by lesser machines, then one is likely to desire a BMW.

"BMW isnt offering anything exclusive for me that can justify spending thousands extra."

I agree - save your money. You'll make one fewer poseur driving a BMW for the wrong reason.

fedlawman

The TSX is likely more fun to drive than any car on this list.

cdnpinhead

"There's nothing fun or pleasant about having other people along for a ride unless that other person is a significant other. Two's company, three is just shoot-me-in-the-head now."

Amen.

I used to call my annual (really long, solo) road trips "sanity breaks." That was when the kids were small. Since my wife doesn't see much merit in this sort of thing, I now call them. . .

sanity breaks.

cdnpinhead

Nice review.

Thanks.

oldcem

You don't have to be diplomatic. I was stupid enough - one time - to buy a Chevy Vega wagon with my GM employee discount. These cars actually developed surface rust while enroute to dealers on auto carriers. The cars had the worse brakes than the 1937 Dodge I once owned, and, went through front pads every 9K miles. The gas tank on my Vega rusted from the inside out and had to be replaced before the car had 1000 miles on it. If you drove the car over 75 on the interstate it used a bunch of oil because the head drains were undersized. I sold it when it was a year old, and switched to Oldsmobiles.

Regards:
OldCEM

cdnpinhead

Yeah, I can see how you might come to your conclusion.

Here's the thing -- I want an RWD vehicle with a manual transmission that will carry my bicycle inside.

When the research is done, it becomes apparent that the list is really (really) short. Oh, BTW, I appreciate fuel mileage.

I'm locked into a BMW, unless I throw RWD under the bus, in which case, the A3 pops up. The C-series is (sorta) in the discussion, but not really (haven't mentioned electronic reliability yet, but will now).

3-series, A3 or CTS? Oh, wait, I forgot to mention that I've already been burned to the bone (& beyond) by buying an American Sports Sedan that left me holding the bag. CTS -- not gonna happen.

So, will it be: 1) BMW 3-series, 2) A3, or 3) my present (now beater) Lincoln LS that does what I want & doesn't cost one additional penny, month over month?

oldcem

Have to correct you on the X Type. Its not even close to a rebadged Mondeo. Only 20% of the X is derived from Mondeo - basically some suspension and brake parts, some electrical bits, some of the belly pan stampings, and some fuel lines. Having owned 2 of them and done a bunch of my own maintenance, the only part I've actually seen a Ford label on instead of Jaguar was one of the fuel lines. That "Mondeo" myth began after one of Jag management types mentioned at a press conference early on that the X shared some parts with Mondeo. The styling may not appeal to you, I can repect that, but I like the "retro" look of the X and S.

Regards:
OldCEM

oldcem

Sorry to disagree. I've communicated on the Jag forums with people in Great Britian who actually own both cars. They indicate that there's a very substantial difference in the two. Besides if you do a little research you'll find that only 20% of Mondeo made it into the X. The chassis didn't make it, the brake parts and some belly pan stampings did. The 3.0 European X without the damn electronic limiter will do 150 according to the British drivers. Mine will only hit 121 before the limiter kicks in. The 3.0 liter Jag engine actually makes the same HP and torque as the BMW 3.0 in the new 328I. The Jag's a bit heavier and has AWD, so the 5 speed models hit 60 in 6.5 seconds. My 5 speed automatic takes 7.1. Forget the Mondeo reskin nonsense, its a myth. The BMW, if it'll really hit its EPA numbers, may get a bit better fuel economy. Don't know anyone here that owns a new one - the local dealer is awful.

Regards:
OldCEM

Regards:
OldCEM

autoboy16

Can you add Acura TSX, Volvo s40, and Saab 9-3?

They are all ELLPS.

-Cj

nyccarguy

I have attended the NY AUto SHow for as far back as I can remember (I'm going to be 31 in a few weeks, so it has got to be at least 20 years). Besides checking out all the cars (which gets harder and harder every year because the crowds are massive), I like to listen to what people have to say and even answer some questions that I know the robots (models) can't or won't answer. I know I'm a big loser, OK :P

2 things I have noticed as of late: The BMW exhibit is ALWAYS mobbed. Lots of people checking out 3 series. You hear them talk about how they like the way the car looks and they like the feel of the interior. Then they look at the starting price and list of options and I hear them say "yeah, but that's just for the base model with a stick shift & fake leather." People think AWD should be standard on all BMWs (NO THANK-YOU). I try to explain and enlighten, but it falls on deaf ears many a times.

Cadillac as lousweis said had the all new CTS on a display! They need to get thast car out on the floor. GM needs all the help and buzz they can get.

blueguydotcom

Disagree about the mondeo underpinnings - but you're wrong:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=48463

"The X-Type shares its chassis with the Ford Mondeo and..."

A simple google of "mondeo x-type and chassis" turns up quite a bit.

brightness04

I'd pick the BMW 328i over Hyundai Sonata Limited because the BMW is less expensive: put that $23000 in a bank account or treasury bills and it would earn you roughly $100 per month. A BMW 328i can be had for $277/mo lease with no cap reduction via ED. That's $177/mo out of pocket after subtracting the $100/mo interest income from the cash set aside. $177x24 = $4248. There is no way a two-year old Sonota Limited can resell for $18752 ($23000 - $4248)! With these lease numbers, BMW 328i is essentially equivalent to a car with a $18k price tag.

oldcem

Actually, Edmunds is wrong, according to a Jag factory consultant that was active on one of the forums, the tech literature from the factory, and a number of Jag tech people who post. Edmunds also carped about the single cup holder up front for two years after Jag redid the center consol and added another one. Edmunds also reviewed the X Type wagon (3.0, automatic) and indicated that its performance was very good, comparable to sedans in this class. However their review of the sedan indicated that performance was subpar to similar sedans. Whoops, the sedan is a good bit faster to 60 than the wagon is. Sorry, inaccuracies like this make me wonder what the Edmunds people are smoking. I've also read articles stating with absolute authority that the car is a reskinned Taurus, or, a reskinned Contour. In addition, I know for a fact that the suspension and brakes in my 06 are substantially different from those in my old 03 model, because I do my own midpoint oil changes and tire rotations. The suspension members and the brake calipers are even differnt now. I suspect as part of Jags ongoing improvements. You also forget - the Mondeo was a front driver, the X is AWD with a huge driveshaft running the length of the car, equipped with a center bearing. Most power goes to the rear differential, unless slippage is detected, then it starts shifting to the front diff. Go look under one if you think I'm yanking your chain - I've been doing a lot of my own wrenching on these cars.

Regards:
OldCEM

jtla

I agree with you 100% that BMW 328i is a tremendous value with the lease deal. I should know because I ordered one. However, you keep mentioning the $277/month with no cap reduction via ED. I can't help but to ask again: how did you come up with that number? I think it is more like $355/month with sales tax (see Post #9147). Am I missing something?

blueguydotcom

You also forget - the Mondeo was a front driver, the X is AWD with a huge driveshaft running the length of the car, equipped with a center bearing.

Are you for real? The Mondeo was available with an AWD system too. Regardless, do you get why your Monde...oops X-type is AWD and not the RWD setup Jag would have preferred? Yeah, the Mondeo chassis that's the basis for the car made RWD impossible.

"One significant design element is that all X-Types will be equipped with standard all-wheel drive-a Jaguar first. This stems from the fact that the X-Type shares certain platform components with the new Europe-only Ford Mondeo, which is a front-drive car. A FWD Jag would never do, and the transverse engine layout precluded a RWD-only version."

--Motor Trend review of the X-type in 2002. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0102_2002_jaguar_x_type

"If you care to look for it, there’s a fair amount of Ford in an X-Type. The platform of the new Jag can be traced to that of the Ford Mondeo, a compact sedan not sold in the U.S. With that chassis came the X-Type’s MacPherson strut front suspension, with the bushings, springs, shocks, etc., and the geometry customized for the Jaguar, as was the steering. Rear suspension pieces carry over from the Mondeo wagon, with a reworking of the upper forged arms and lower stamped arms, shocks, coil springs and anti-roll bar."

-- Road and Track review of the 2002 X-type. http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=111

"One source of doubt about whether people would like X-Type has been knowing that the Jaguar's underpinnings are derived from those of the European Ford Mondeo, the latest generation of the car once sold here as the Ford Contour."

--Autoweek regarding the 2002 X-type. http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20010507/FREE/105070708&SearchID=- 73275611480017

But they all got it wrong, right? Every magazine in America, every reviewer, every person that mentioned the mondeo was wrong.

How about a 2005 interview with the Jaguar VP of Marketing, Tom Scarpello:

"A very large percentage feel the Mondeo is an excellent platform to start from in the first place and that the X-Type does differentiate itself extremely well from that car. From a consumer's point of view, it's not a warmed-over Mondeo. There's so much platform sharing within the industry. "

-- Autoweek, 2/11/05 http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050211/FREE/502110701&SearchID=- 73275612307685

pat

Unfortunately, there is only room to list nine cars at the top. In the past, the 9-3 and the S40 have both had a turn and eventually were invited out by popular demand. We've only got eight listed right now, so what I've done is added the TSX.

We don't have to limit the conversation to just those nine; we can talk about any car that reasonably fits into the segment, by the way. What I wish we would do is just talk about the cars themselves rather than getting all tangled up in what belongs and what doesn't. We seem to get mired in that debate every so often, and that doesn't help anyone who actually wants to read about and discuss the features of the cars themselves.

Anyway, let's see how it goes.

circlew

I love the auto show but hate "The Mob".

On the CTS, here is another example on how NOT to introduce a new car...keep it out of reach and make sure everyone can get into the competition. Same old, same old.

Regards,
OW

louiswei

On the CTS, here is another example on how NOT to introduce a new car...

Agree. I don't mind they put a newly-introduced-not-yet-in-the-dealership car on display but at least invite those whom have shown any amount of interest to go up and take a closer look. I was dissapointed that even after I politely asked the Caddy representative to see if I can touch the door panel to see what kind of material is used she still turned me down and re-direct me to the current model. Nicely done, Caddy.

However, in all fairness, Caddy is NOT the only manufacture to follow this exercise. This year in Atlanta Auto Show Toyota also put the new Highlander on display with the "Look Only" sign to it. Also, other examples come to mind are: Acura with their TSX and Pontiac with the GTO (of course, these are several years ago).

1487

I actually think the Buick Lucerne looks better than the G35. I dont see any correlation between the G35 and any Buick sedan. The G35 is a stereotypical Japanese design. It couldnt be from anywhere but Japan for better or worse. As we all know, Japanese car designs that arent derivative usually arent all that great and the G35 is an example of that.

1487

"Agree. I don't mind they put a newly-introduced-not-yet-in-the-dealership car on display but at least invite those whom have shown any amount of interest to go up and take a closer look. I was dissapointed that even after I politely asked the Caddy representative to see if I can touch the door panel to see what kind of material is used she still turned me down and re-direct me to the current model. Nicely done, Caddy. "

Who doesnt do this at an autoshow? They do not let you get inside of or touch turntable models. This is nothing new and hardly exclusive to Cadillac. What do you propose they do? Not show the car at the autoshow since they arent going to let you put your hands on it? I dont think that would be a smart idea at all.

1487

"If one loves to drive and is unimpressed by lesser machines, then one is likely to desire a BMW. "

There is not proof that the cars being discussed are lesser machines, they are just different from BMWs. If they were clearly inferior they wouldnt be selling. They appeal to plenty of people, just not BMW fans.

"You'll make one fewer poseur driving a BMW for the wrong reason. "

I am much more into driving than the majority of people who drive BMWs. If I did own one it surely would be to drive it fast and hard when possible, not to appeal to badge snobs. Cant say thats why most people buy BMWs though.

1487

"Cadillac as lousweis said had the all new CTS on a display! They need to get thast car out on the floor. GM needs all the help and buzz they can get. "

Cars that are 6 months from on sale date are not going to be on the show flow. I fail to see why people feel GM should not adhere to this rule just because they "need all the help they can get". GM has been generating more positive buzz recently than anytime in my memory. They are not fully recovered but they are on the way. Putting the CTS show car on the floor would mean nothing. The car isnt for sale so why would CAdillac tease people at autoshows?

I've been to the NYAS several times and its so crowded that almost every display area is mobbed. I didnt find BMW's area to me any more crowded than other luxury brands.

brightness04

E90 328i sedan MSRP: 32,400
ED invoice (Munich pickup): $27,720
so ED cap cost w/ $1000 profit to dealer: $28,720
residual: 73% for 12k/yr
MF: 0.00125 for 24 or 36-mo lease

A decent lease caculator would show $276.63/mo based on these numbers.

BTW, there is one thing going for Hyundai Sonata in comparison to BMW 3 series though: Sonata is a midsized car whereas the 3 series is a compact. A more approriate entry for comparison in the Hyundai lineup would be Elantra.

1487

why in the world is the TSX being added to this topic? That car doesn't even cost more than $30k and has an anemic 205hp. That makes no sense to me. Most of the cars being discussed here cost well over $40k fully loaded and would never be cross shopped with a TSX.

1487

The TSX is FWD which means its not as fun to drive as a RWD sports sedan. This is per several regular posters here who have stated repeatedly that FWD is for people who dont like to drive or understand the concept of a sports sedan. The only thing the TSX has going for it is light weight but I dont even know if its lighter than the 3 series.

brightness04

If pricing is the sole criterium, as shown above, the 3 series can be cross-shopped against Hyundai Sonata and still comes out less expensive.

brightness04

This is per several regular posters here who have stated repeatedly that FWD is for people who dont like to drive or understand the concept of a sports sedan.

And they would have a hard time explaining the theory to the professional drivers who won road races in RSX's and Integras against several generations of 3 series cars.

pat

And here we have absolute proof that you can't please all the people all the time.

Don't talk about any car you don't feel belongs here. Do talk about any car you do feel belongs here, within reasonable parameters of course.

What seems senseless to me, as I tried to say earlier, is wasting bandwidth and keystrokes telling other people what doesn't belong. Ignore the cars you feel are not part of this segment and tell us what you like or don't like about the cars you do find relevant. It's easy enough to do, trust me.

And let me be clear: I'm talking to everyone, not to any individual poster.

louiswei

1487, next time read my whole post before reply?

This is getting really annoying...

By the way, FYI, last year in the Atlanta Auto Show the Saturn Aura was on the display and wasn't yet in the dealership but they have allowed people to checkout the interior one by one under supervision. That, my friend, should be the way to go. Last I checked, Saturn is also part of GM just like Caddy is right?

blueguydotcom

There is not proof that the cars being discussed are lesser machines, they are just different from BMWs. If they were clearly inferior they wouldnt be selling. They appeal to plenty of people, just not BMW fans.

Somewhat agree about appeal but consider that Suzuki sells cars too. They are clearly inferior to their main competitors, yet people buy them. Heck the largest producer of cars in the world makes awful vehicles... quality and quantity sold are rarely connected.

blueguydotcom

You're missing shipping costs (695) and acquisition (625). That's $700 missing from msrp and 625 missing entirely that's added to the cap cost, which would translate to about 20 additional dollars per month.

Also, ALL ED cars are subject to a boost in mf of 0.0003. So the real MF is 0.00155.

Finally MSRP went up March first by $200 - $190 on ED cars and shipping is now $775.

blueguydotcom

The only thing the TSX has going for it is light weight but I dont even know if its lighter than the 3 series.

At 3257 pounds, the 6MT TSX is quite a bit lighter than a 328 - by several hundred pounds. It's a featherweight compared to the TL, G35, IS350, CTS and 335i.

ivan_99

Unfortunately, there is only room to list nine cars at the top.

We could always combine the IS350 and IS250 into one entry...

louiswei

We could always combine the IS350 and IS250 into one entry

Yeah, why's that both 3-series and C-class has one entry but the IS has 2?

circlew

Let's use a little common sense regarding "presentation".

If you let potential customers "see and feel" a new offering well before it is available, my guess it will just add to the potential for those customers to come back just a little bit closer to a future sale. As opposed to just getting a far away look.

Why do something different than everyone else?

But I assume GM is being arrogant as usual. I am used to that now.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Here is a good reason that some shop BMW. Doesn't happen all the time but service is at a different level. This was from the 'BMW Oil Questions' thread by bgc:

It's called satisfaction.

Called BMW Customer Relations after I dropped the car off on Monday. Relayed info concerning the issues I had with my 328xi. Here is a review,
1. Took delivery of new 2007 328xi Loaded Sticker 45,000.
on Dec. 27
2. Jan. 6 in shop till Jan. 22 for valvetronic and relay
3. Jan 24 back in shop till Feb. 5 for a new DME
4. Feb. 16 to Feb. 17 for oil sensor
5. March 19 to March 20 Software issue
Molly at customer relations was unbelievable she understood my utter frustration with this car, she spoke to dealer and regional rep. Tuesday afternoon I get a call from my servive rep that regional approved taking back the car and getting me into a new one. Going today to order. Thank You
Molly and BMW North America.

Yes, this unit was a lemon, but corporate made the right decision. Let me know if this would be the case with, say a CTS, gone bad.

Regards,
OW

fedlawman

"There is not proof that the cars being discussed are lesser machines, they are just different from BMWs."

I drove the G35 and E90 back-to-back, and I can confidently say that the Infiniti is a lesser machine. But if you don't believe me, then just try to find ONE magazine columnist that has reviewed these cars and stated that any one of them drives better than the 3-series.

"If they were clearly inferior they wouldnt be selling."

They sell because they have more buttons on the dashboard for less money.

"They appeal to plenty of people, just not BMW fans."

They appeal to plenty of people, just not uncompromising driving enthusiasts.

"I am much more into driving than the majority of people who drive BMWs."

Really, I know several hundred people who disagree...

kdshapiro

/ot - Actually there actually one more thing going for the Sonota. The size of the repair bills should you get into a front fender bender. They are Ultra-expensive to repair relative to other cars their size. Info comes from an article on msn.

pat

Discussion categories are the basis of how the search works - take a look at the Browse by Vehicle search on the left. Whatever is listed there can be a category for a discussion and will mean that when someone chooses a make/model, the discussions returned will be those which have been categorized as about that make/model.

Does that make sense?

jtla

Well, some cost components were missing in your calculation. I will copy and paste my post #9147 again:

... two items were missed in your example: $695 destination charge and $625 lease inception fee (assuming rolled-in). My calculation based on:

- $28,415 ED invoice for base 328i sedan 6MT no option
- $1,000 dealer profit + $625 lease fee
- zero cap cost reduction
- single security deposit
- 2 yr / 12k miles lease
- MF .00125 + 0.0003 for ED
- 73% residual

Using lease calculator from leaseguide.com the monthly payment comes to $354.55 with 7.75% sales tax. The March price bump probably adds $2 or $3 to the payment.

In addition, doing ED for a base model may not worth it because there is not that much price gap with US prices, especially nowadays you can get the 328i for around $500 over invoice at local dealers. When you factor in the travel cost for ED and one month payment without your car (overall 2 months without car but BMWFS pays for the second month), the true monthly cost is about $400/month, which you can get from dealer lots without too much haggle.

Again, I agree that the 328i lease deal is very attractive, but it can't be had for $277/mo with no cap cost reduction. IMO, the $123 (44%) difference is significant for cost comparison purpose.

blueguydotcom

Agreed. A nicely loaded 335i is the best deal for ED. You get a cut on every option you add so your base is actually further from the car's msrp and thus closer to the vehicle's residual value.

hauss

Don't forget that the new Dodge Challenger was off limits as were all the Aston Martin vehicles. I know Aston Martin's cost a pretty penny but I was sitting right in the cockpit of an M6 convertible at $120K and BMW didn't seem to care. Heck I saw 5 year olds scaling the seats in a $80K Land Rover! Let us in the cars unless it's a one of a kind concept vehicle or something.

brightness04

There is destination charge for new Sonata, too. I don't count lease acquisition because maintenance cost of a Sonata, including tire and brakes probably add up to more than $800 every two years. The original tires can probably last two years (althought definitely not three with my wife driving; that's why I'm not interested in three-year lease).

Is ED mf boosted by 0.0003 or 0.003? That's a sizable difference considering the vanishingly small base numbers that we are talking about :-)

brightness04

I doubt a fender bender on a BMW would cost less, unfortunately. The last time I took my 5 series in (three cars before my current cars), the body shop guys literally had dollar signs in their eyes.

blueguydotcom

Yes, all ED MF's are boosted by 0.0003. Of course, BMW pays for month two of the lease. Any jump in cost is offset by the payment. I think the boost in MF has more to do with lining the pockets of dealers.

circlew

For GM,

So, the coveted CTS is off limits in an Auto SHOW! No show, NO GO!

I believe you can place orders on cars at the show. I am sure GM will not/did not take any orders for this new mega-car. To priceless! Might as well leave it a concept.

Regards,
OW

brightness04

Sales tax is something different from state to state, and something you can not avoid even if buying a Sonata (probably far worse for buying Sonata because you'd have to pay sales tax on the whole car). Same goes with destination charge. The average maitenance cost on a Sonata probably exceeds $800 every two years, so there's no point counting lease inception charge either. I never roll either fees into lease payment. Nor should they, or tax, be counted if we want an apples to apples comparison.

Of course, personally I agree with you that a loaded car is even better deal with ED; personally nothing short of a 335i convertible is really worth my time taking the trip (I'm actually planning on picking up two cars to make flying the Mrs worth it) . . . but we have to compare the cheapest deals avaiable just for the sake of argument.

Delivery time for east coast is one month, and BMWFS pays for that one month. $400/mo is worse deal than what BMW advertises on its own website. I'm sure if you are willing to over-pay, say $100,000 for a Sonata, the dealer won't haggle with you much either ;-)

louiswei

This BMW ED/lease discussion is really getting off topic IMO. I believe one could find out more information about that in the BMW 3-series: Prices Paid & Buying Experience board.

As for the 3-series vs. Sonata cost discussion? Are you guys serious?!!! :confuse: