Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

brightness04

Well, E30 would very much be a boyracer compared to E46 and E90. 200hp was about what most E36 and E46 had (some as low as 168hp), much more than what typical E30 had. Pedigree, well, that's for pets :-)

brightness04

I have shared that conventional wisdom with you for much of my driving life. All my cars, excepting one, were paid with cash. That view is being severely challenged in recent years in the face of vendor financing. Blueguy has it well covered from the financial perspective. I just want to point out also that, after a model cycle (or even less), whatever we buy today would be either a boyracer or a family car by the standards of that time, not really ELLPS so even if had cost less it would be an apples-to-oranges comparison. Thankfully, we don't even have to choose between money and being to date nowadays; a bit odd, yes.

kdshapiro

I agree. See a lot of Porsches, Ferraris, Maserati in Manhattan also. Lot of poseurs out there driving very expensive and sport cars in 5 mph traffic. Shame on those poseurs, giving these high-brow brands a bad name.

bruceomega

hauss,

Yes, I like that, each to his own!

I will say that my previous car, an 01 3 series, was a much more snug fit than my current car.

Bruce

mariner7

See a lot of Porsches, Ferraris, Maserati in Manhattan also. Lot of poseurs out there driving very expensive and sport cars in 5 mph traffic.

Who's kidding whom? That's exactly what Porsche, Ferrari et al want! That's how they sell so many cars and make so much money! That's one main reason why Ferrari is in Formula 1, to sell sex appeal.

If every Ferrari driver has to pass a Michael Schumacher test, Ferrari would be a fraction of its current size. BMW knows most M5 drivers can't be trusted to use even half its full power, and yet every new M5 has even more power!

kdshapiro

My friend, I believe these generalizations can be applied to most any high-brow performance brand, even Infiniti and Lexus. So I'm not sure of the point except people buy the cars they buy for their own reasons.

circlew

Interesting Edmunds track test indicates the bar has been raised as expected. The limp-home thing was also a good sign that the Germans have more work to do on the turbo performance/reliability.

We will see coming feedback on this comparo but I personally expected improvements in the G and the weight factor still hinders performance as some of the more intuitive posters here have noted. The '08 coupe weighs in at 3,571# vs. 3,682# 335 coupe and the 9/10 test shows G on top for the out of the corner acceleration/control for this test. 0-60 was not compared here.

It looks like Infinity has done a commendable job keeping their offering razor close to expected competition at the top of the sister to this category with their coupe.

Regards,
OW

victord1

It looks like Infinity has done a commendable job keeping their offering razor close to expected competition at the top of the sister to this category with their coupe.

Yeah, I certainly hope so. And they definitely have to polish out the rough edges. In the April C&D comparo the G35 lost to the 328i due to the lack of "refinement". IMO, that's quite pathetic, considering C&D favored the G35 over the 325i a few years ago.

I also read Edmunds preview of the G37 coupe. I thought the 335i "limp mode" part was funny. Looked like the "Ultimate Driving Machine" was reduced to the "Ultimate Crawling Machine". :sick: On the plus side, it's better to be crawling than not moving at all.

1487

"But you have got to be kidding yourself if you think that the likes of Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Audi didn't build their respective cars for the sole purpose of competing (sales and performance) with the 3 series."

If the sole mission of the cars in this class was to mimic the 3 these cars would be just like the 3. While good handling is a geneal goal shared by these vehicles, I wouldnt say they are all designed to be clones of the 3 series. If that is the case the CTS would be smaller, the A4 wouldnt offer FWD, the TL would be smaller and RWD, etc. The 3 series competitors try to offer their interpretation of a sports sedan and to BMW loyalists any car that doesn't replicate the 3 exactly is a joke.

andres3

Maybe there is a RWD Audi in the future some time some day?

If not, they could make a higher aluminum content/lighter weighted frame and structure/body Audi A3 and offset the added weight of Quattro thereby making the 2.0T a great choice w/ AWD.

pat

Maybe you could find or create a dedicated BMW discussion to continue this latest thread. It would be good if we could get back to discussing the features of some of the rest of the cars instead of focusing so much on bimmer engines alone.

booyahcramer

Thanks - I was waiting for the hook from you.

pat

Okay, here ya go! I moved a bunch of posts to a new discussion that I think many of you will enjoy. Check it out: BMW History and Engine Technology.

I posted links to some articles I think you'll like. If you've kept up with this discussion, you will have already read the 40+ posts I moved. You can use the Mark As Read link at the bottom of the page to keep them from all showing up as "new" for you.

Enjoy!

brightness04

Thank you, Pat for moving some of the BMW-specific details. This is a response to a question regarding other ELLPS that habitat had (and the answer wouldn't quite fit in the new forum):

I'm not familiar with S2000, but the TL has fluid-fill engine mounts controlled by piezo electric driver that are fed data by engine piston position sensors. That's why TL achieved nearly complete engine-vibration free cabin and steering long before BMW 3 series did, regardless the intrisic virtues of I6 vs. V6. Nowadays, just about any engine geometric configuration can be made smooth enough to let the electronicly controlled fluid-filled engine mounts to take over and smother out the last bit of vibration. For 6 and more cylinders, intrinsic smoothness due to inter-piston layout geometry is about as relevent to today's cars as who made the best carberretor; i.e. not a heck lot. Some manufactuers are going so far as to make modular V6's that are 90 degrees and narrow-angle V6's that have angles much less than the cannonic 60 degree V6's, all counting on engine mounts to reduce vibration for them. It's a great idea that Pat moved much of the arcana BMW engine discussion to a different forum, because much of the supposed historical superiority really have little to do with today's ELLPS that have much more advanced technology to make some of the old characteristics quite irrelevent.

ps. Thanks, Pat, for suggesting the change to post title. Done.

louiswei

Let's leave the Bimmer alone for a minute shall we... :P

When I was "taking care of business" yesterday at the house I saw the February issue of the R&T laying around so I picked it up and start reading the Japanese "sporty sedans" comparison for the second time. Although I generally agree with the verdict but would like to share my point of view since I did test drive both the G35S, TL-S before and currently own an IS350.

My ranking:

3. TL-S

Pros:
- Good Value. Although the sticker is at $38K, one can easily get one for around $35K which is a lot of car (and gadget) for that price.
- Confident handling for a FWD.
- Best interior in terms of design in this segment.
- Optional manual transmission

Cons:
- Nose heavy feeling. This is obvious since it's a FWD and probably wouldn't bother too many people whom moved up from their current mid-sizer.
- Lack of power in terms of competition. 280HP and some change is definitely not weak but since its major competitors are all in the 300 range, it could certainly use some boost in this department.
- Interior cost cutting. fake CF, fake wood, low quality material for door panel handles. Nothing major but worth mentioning IMO.

Bottom Line: Excellent car as a mid-sizer step up and good ELLPS but don't pay MSRP for it.

2. G35S

Pros:
- Improved interior over the previous model. The new interior looks elegant, especially the washi aluminum trim.
- Best handling in all Japanese ELLPS.
- Good value. Similar equipped, it is considerably cheaper than competitors, Japanese or not.
- Optional manual transmission.

Cons:
- Interior cost cutting. Hard plastic being used for lower part of the door panel. This issue is not major but shouldn't happen for a car that's in the $30K-40K range.
- Strange position for control buttons. Infiniti decided they are better off facing upward instead forward (or to the drive). Why? I don't know.
- The new VQ. Although rated at 306HP, it is slower than Toyota's 2GR-FSE and BMW's twin-turbo 6 in terms of both driving feel and statistic. Lack the low RPM boost.

Bottom Line: Excellent performance sedan for the price and if you are a so-called "enthusiast" with a preference of Japanese make this is the one to get.

1. IS350

Pros:
- One of the best interiors in this segment. Material used is top-notch, excellent fit-and-finish
- Smooth and powerful V6. The 306HP 2GR-FSE is capable to push the car from 0-60 in less than 5 seconds according to R&T and that's faster than an Audi S4. This car is wicket fast in ECT sports mode.
- Lots of standard gadgets.
- Good balance between sporty and luxury.
- Smooth 6-speed auto tranny

Cons:
- No manual tranny available.
- Tight interior space.
- Cheap (although not cheap looking) metallic trim instead of real aluminum.
- Handling not as crisp as the competition, has more isolated steering feel.
- Intrusive VDIM system. It's good that on the 2007 model Lexus decided to put a VDIM-off switch. Too bad that us 06' owners still have to resort to the "tap dancing" method.

Bottom Line: Offers excellent balance between performance and luxury, argubly one of the best "all-around" entry-level luxury performance sedan on the market. As long as one doesn't race it on the track.

1487

I agree about the G35 interior, the press have given it a free ride on this but its hardly class leading. I found all sorts of hard plastic and slightly cheap touches inside. The LOOK is fine, but the details are not up to Lexus or BMW standards. Same applies to the TL although to a lesser extent. I was also surprised the G has fixed rear headrests which isnt something you commonly find in Japanese sedans.

hauss

Overall a nice review. Here are other comments from my vantage point:

TL-S: Best interior ergonomics among the three. Most spacious of the 3. Worst looking wheels among the three. Also, it's a shame they don't offer 18" factory wheel option (you can get them dealer installed). Best stereo among the three. Auto tranny should be 6 speed.

G35: Interior ergonomics have improved but are still poor for a car in this segment. Interior design is choppy compared to TL and IS350 but is much improved over last generation. For a car of it's size (exterior) the interior is a bit cramped.

IS350: Most expensive of the 3. Aside from hard plastic on grip side door panel handles are same material as TL-S (rubber).

louiswei

Best stereo among the three.

Have you compare TL's stereo to IS's Mark Levison? I have to admit that I am not big into stereo systems but it'll be nice to find out why one is better than the others.

hauss

I was going by the general standard stereos with my comment but to your point the premium Mark Levinson systems Lexus uses are stellar and just as good as Acura's ELS surround sound system. Lexus lists it as a stand alone option but that's really only if you're willing to special order the vehicle that way. I think the option packages it comes with is about $3800. Plus, you'll likely have a hard time finding one with just that option package - there will be other options included. That drives up the price. In my experience the only IS350s I've seen with the Mark Levinson stereo are well into the $40k's. So, that's why I'd say the TL stereo is better based on the cost factor and that it's in every vehicle.

andres3

In 2004 when they first came out, that was reason enough and alone to buy a TL! Do they still play DVD-A?

blueguydotcom

DVD-A was a reason to buy a car? Egad, go to a stereo shop!

wale_bate1

with adaptive cruise control and cupholders as considerations.

Hits my list right about two steps below "wood and leather steering wheel and shift knob".

Can we get a "roll eyes" emoticon?

andres3

haha, well, I was half heartedly joking there about buying the TL soley for the sound system and DVD Audio playing capabilities.

Although, car manufacturers do have a tendency to take eons to evolve and progress regarding technology. They were using tape/radios commonly in the mid 90's for goodness sakes!!! Wasn't the CD around 15 years old by that time?

But, the TL was fantastic for many other reasons too.

habitat1

The stereos, nav systems, power butt massagers, etc. available in many ELLPS are certainly nice features...

...but it seems, much like the computer on your desk (or rather, lap) they are evolving to the point where a 2-3 year old ELLPS is out of date and if you own a 4-5 year old ELLPS, it's a sign your career may have stalled.

As I've stated numerous times before, keeping my 1995 Nissan Maxima SE, with next to no options (only ABS) for 10+ years and 155k miles was a factor in my being comfortable splurging on a 911. When I hear of others getting a new $40k+ ELLPS every 3 years to keep up with the latest and greatest, I can only respond that "it's your money".

Dropped off my 911 for a malfunctioning passenger power seat yesterday and a 60-ish gentleman in a 1995 993 model 911 was picking up his car after an oil change. Looked like it had just come off the showroom floor, in spite of 90,000 miles. He looked at my car, with the power this and that, nav system, etc. and just laughed, with a comment that "thank god my car doesn't have all that stuff to break".

louiswei

"thank god my car doesn't have all that stuff to break".

Yeah, but the thing is...

Those things are getting pretty reliable now-a-day which they don't break as much often. Well, at least on the non-European imports that is...

However, I am still on the fence about the navi. I hate to not be able to listen to my favorite music if the nav system decided not to corporate one day. Portable GPS is still the way to IMO (at least for right now).

kdshapiro

VZ Nav all the way.

hauss

That 60-ish guy you talked about sounds like my 74 year old father. He thinks electronic components on anything are susceptible to high rates of failure. It doesn't matter if we're talking about the controls on a washer/dryer, a tv, or a car. It's funny how people remember things one way sometimes and can never change their viewpoint.

habitat1

Those things are getting pretty reliable now-a-day which they don't break as much often.

Maybe you are right, but my experience isn't great - our 2005 MDX had to have the Navigation control unit (DVD reader under the passenger seat) replaced twice, first when it placed us in the Atlantic Ocean on the way home from Boston and then when it just froze up. And, as I said, my 911 is in the shop because the power passenger seat stopped working in an unusable far forward position. No manual override to push it back.

I've also heard of some malfunctioning bluetooth / voice activated electronics in both Lexus and Acura. Royal pain in the butt for a "mechanic" to try to figure out what the problem is. And complete replacement of these systems is not cheap when it's out of warranty. A complete nav system replacement (including screen) would probably approach the grand total of all maintence and repairs on my Maxima in 155k miles (under $3,500, including 38 oil changes).

I admit that the gadget craze is here to stay with respect to ELLPS. Especially since there seem to be a lot more folks concerned about "L" than "P". I recall someone in this forum even claiming not offering ventilated seats as "unacceptable" in this segment. But along with this gadgetry comes a lot of premature obsolescence given how long the actual car could last. That 12 year old 993 model 911 sure looked great to me, in spite of none of the accutriments that are required in sub-ELLPS today. And it could still kick the butt of almost any pure "P" car in any segment.

kyfdx

Not to mention, that 993 is probably still worth 40% of what he paid for it...

You just can't find those... and when you do, the prices are astronomical..

fedlawman

Cars without electronic dipsticks - yeah, I'm waiting for that!

shipo

Hey folks (specifically brightness04, habitat1, circlew and bruceomega), I've been busy for a couple of days, and when I resurfaced today, noticed a change or two. As such, I've responded to your posts over here:

shipo, "BMW History and Engine Technology" #48, 28 Mar 2007 3:26 pm

Best Regards,
Shipo

amitnis1

I am looking for an entry level luxury coupe and debating between the infiniti G35 and the Toyota solara. It seems that no one consider the Solara to be included in this category. Can someone comment on the reason? Is the Solara just a bad coupe version of the Camry?

Thanks.

blueguydotcom

The solara is a big, heavy, softly sprung car without any sporting aspirations. The forum is about entry level luxury performance sedans.

It misses on so many points:

It's a toyota
It's not sporty
It's a coupe

ggesq

Are you looking to purchase in the very near future? If not, then you will have more choices in a few months e.g. G37 and A5. Have you considered the 328i? How about the CLK350?
blueguy is right though- this is a entry level luxury performance sedan fourm- that's prolly why you don't see either discussed here. Although the G35 does pop up from time to time.

circlew

Take a look at the weight of this new 3'er entrant that you can now configure on Edmunds.

Over 3,800 lbs! BGDC, et al, FIRE AWAY!!

Regards,
OW

shipo

Geez, my 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan weighs 3,800 pounds. What a porker. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

amitnis1

Do you know when the G37 is scheduled to be relaeased? I can wait a few months.

nkeen

Solara: rented one once. Truly a "nothing" car that had me wondering what all the fuss about Toyota was for.

jtla

It is scheduled for August. However, if you want decent deals instead of MSRP, you are looking near year-end or early 2008.

circlew

"Burp" now move over Audi...my x'er needs to pass!!!

Why can't they keep the weight down? I assume the E90/E92 platform would be quite similar but now another 100+ pounds?

What gives?

kdshapiro

Even I think that's a bit porky. Seems like 1 series is the 3 series of old. The 3 series is now where the 5 series was. Some models got downsized, the vehicles in the ELLPS segment all got upsized. Isn't competition wonderful?

louiswei

Is there a possibility that BMW will make the next 3er all aluminum frame just like the 5? I personally think it's ridiculous that the 530i weighs about as much as a 335i.

shipo

"The 3 series is now where the 5 series was."

Hmmm, my old 530i tipped the scales at a touch under 3,500 pounds, fully three hundred pounds less than the 335xi. Yeesh!

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

I replaced my 330i today with a 2700 lbs Mini Cooper S. Let BMW fatten up their 3 series; I've got something nimble, small and fun. My fiancee said I'm driving happy again; like I used to with my 2003 330i.

I'm sure within 2-3 years i'll be picking up an ELLPS (probably BMW will have a 335i ZHP model by then). Or the 1/2 series. Either way, I'm halfway out of BMW for now.

meateater

Nice ride...but if a Suburban plows into you they'll never find you.

shipo

"Nice ride...but if a Suburban plows into you they'll never find you."

You'd be surprised. I witnessed an F-250 plow into the back of a Cooper last year, and I was surprised how well the Cooper did. Not only was there no occupant compartment intrusion, but anytime something as large as the F-Series starts leaking coolant, you know it took a pretty good hit. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

habitat1

Congrats on the Mini Cooper S. Did you lease or buy? What kind of deal/discount did you get? Not quite ready to replace my 911S, but it looks like we will be building a new house and ....

dewey

Slushboxes maybe taking over our roads. But there is still some hope in our bathrooms.

Gear shifting toilet plunger
Story posted on: March 29, 2007

link title

Heck, this toilet plunger has even more speeds than my car. Boasting a six-speed shifter at the top, you will be able to remove virtually any item clogging up the toilet while imaging yourself speeding down the highway with wind blowing through your hair and a beautiful blonde sitting beside. Of course, once you get the offending bits out, reality beckons and all you're faced with is no Ferrari but a porcelain throne and some brown floating bits. Those interested in the chrome-plated plunger will be able to acquire one by forking out $32.

nyccarguy

Congrats on your new Mini Cooper S! What colors/options did you get? Are you posting your experiences on the MINI board here on TH?

circlew

I would think there are many ways to cut down on weight with new materails each year.

It looks to me that BMW is adding more models between past offerings to make sure everyone gets what they want.

Regards,
OW