Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

habitat1

I'm in the market and would appreciate some input

Just remember, somebody else's input or test drive experience will never be as good as your own. There were things that I noticed back in 2004 when comparing the G35, 330i and TL 6-speed that may not have mattered to others. Example, coming out of a Honda S2000, I was spoiled by perhaps the best short throw gearbox in any car. Both the he 330i and TL 6-speeds were very good, but the G35 was below average (at that time, hopefully improved since).

Also, I have found that a single test drive is not enough when you are considering 3-4+ different cars.

louiswei

Don't know what's a 350i but here are the links to my posts while I was on the "test drive spree" during the Chrismas-New Year break.

G35 & 335i

TL-S

quasiactuary

I think by 350i he means Lexus IS350

frisconick

Also, I have found that a single test drive is not enough when you are considering 3-4+ different cars.

I agree, different cars have different strengths, and it depends on what the driver is looking for.

frisconick

Comparing Porsche and a Lexus is really apples and oranges in the extreme. :P

ponderpoint

I agree.

This is probably the biggest "duh" I have seen in these forums. Don't even go to the level of a Porsche, even the lowly little Miata will blow the doors off an ELLPS if you're on the "twisties" to Shamokin or the "narrows" in PA. It's like comparing a prize winning dairy cow at the state fair to a panther in the wild.... Who even brought this up?

The Acura TL I just got rid of (With its brain-dead navi, but that's another thread) could not possibly keep up with a REAL sports car (in the curves Francis.... Nobody cares about kiddies in their tuners on straightaways), even if the sports car had a lot less horsepower.

As always - rain slicked roadway and/or AWD doesn't count, you're not driving for pleasure anymore, and I will not argue the point.... it's dumb.

frisconick

TL is too big and heavy to be a sports car, but love my TL. :shades:

ggesq

The Acura TL I just got rid of (With its brain-dead navi, but that's another thread) could not possibly keep up with a REAL sports car (in the curves Francis.... Nobody cares about kiddies in their tuners on straightaways), even if the sports car had a lot less horsepower."

I think that's the overall theme with the responses- none of these cars can.

frisconick

I would like to Acura put out a RWD coupe, that is smaller with improved handling. I really believe the TL would look great as coupe :shades:

plekto

What a silly statement.

Porsche is a whole different animal. Mostly because it weighs close to 500 lbs less than the new IS350.(almost 3600lbs!) It's also a matter of the engine being right over the driveshaft. It digs in hard - almost too hard for most divers to handle. Handles like a professonal racecar.

The only thing comparable to it driving-wise under 100K is probably a Lotus Elise - of course the Lotus is *tiny* and a whole other take on the same formula. Pure driving and eh - the rest is a very distant 4th or 5th place.

Me, though - I'm looking at the PanAmercia - the new/next generation 928. Someday I know I'll have one
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/FVDP/Preview/styleId=100542363
Oh wow, that's beautiful.

skyclad

someone said in a previous post that automatic BMWs were good for 80k...then what?

I can drive a manual but am tired of it and would much rather drive an automatic.

I know and appreciate the control the manual offers but I also know and appreciate the comfort the automatic offers.

The other thing is that in the 4 bmws i am considering the manuals next to them are more expensive and 2 door. I need to mention i have two kids growing like weeds so a 2 door small car would be replacing what i have right now with the same kind of car, same color even, especially with the manual tranny.

blueguydotcom

The other thing is that in the 4 bmws i am considering the manuals next to them are more expensive and 2 door.

What? Are you buying off the lot or something? All BMWs in this class come with manuals at no-cost. You can, and should, order a BMW exactly as you want it. Unless the lot happens to have your exact car, you gain little to nothing by buying off the lot at this time of year. October-november there's usually dealer money so lot buys work nicely but otherwise, buying a bimmer off the lot...don't get why.

circlew

Here is a test of the quickest cars C/D did for 2007 on a moderate budget - A/T is for drag in the Sky/Solstice, M/T for control... AWD/M/T wins hands down in the EVO even though at the top end of the $30K limit for the test

Tenth Place: Subaru Forester 2.5XT
Ninth Place: Pontiac Grand Prix GXP
Eighth Place: Pontiac Solstice GXP/Saturn Sky Red Line (manual)
Seventh Place: Chevrolet Impala SS
Sixth Place: Nissan 350Z
Fifth Place: Mazdaspeed 6
Fourth Place: Subaru Legacy 2.5GT
Third Place: Pontiac Solstice GXP/Saturn Sky Red Line (automatic)
Second Place: Ford Mustang GT
First Place: Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution RS

blueguydotcom

What does this prove? Baffled. :confuse:

FWIW, the test is flawed as the WRX and Mazdaspeed3 aren't on it and both those cars will run sub 6 second 0-60 times. And offer better handling than many of the cars listed.

circlew

Just info...I always preferred the Evo, though. 5.1 0-60.

blueguydotcom

If I could live with a Mitsu car, the Evo would be the one.

joe131

Not flawed, but limited to cars tested in 2007 he said. No fault there.
What were the times and speeds?
Is it on the web anywhere? What issue?

joe131

Interesting maybe, but some will surely argue not a single one is an ELLPS.

frisconick

I think he said there as a $30k limit in those tested.

joe131

yeah, a test of the quickest cars C/D did for 2007 on a moderate budget ($30,000)

frisconick

CHEAP

plekto

They seem to have forgotten the RX-8, which is closer to 25K.

The Sentra SE-R Spec V also should be in there - it's quick for $20K.

Of course, they also forgot the MX5 and several others, like the Mini Cooper S-Works edition(yeah, it's jsut a tad under 30K kitted out with all the suspension and performance options)

joe131

...if those cars weren't tested in 2007.

pat

Guess I'll be the one to say that none of them are entry level luxury performance sedans...

Maybe we could move on?

qbrozen

maybe rocky posted this and i missed it ... a quick search didn't turn up anything for me ... but the new C&D says the new CTS will be available with either 260 hp or 300 hp ... and both versions with a 6-speed manual!! This could prove interesting.

mz6greyghost

Cadillac almost had to make the 6-speed stick an option on both powertrains, since I'm sure I wasn't the only one that was disappointed with the lack of a manual on the V8 model on the prev-gen.

circlew

The powertrain should be better but is suspension world class?

IMO, I can't get past the looks of this vehicle even with the new design. The front facia reminds me of i-robot-like futuristic looks. The interior is better, however.

Regards,
OW

plekto

The suspension has been tweaked a decent amount.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=117275?tid=edmunds.- il.home.photopanel..1.*
That should pull up a nice video of the 2008 CTS-V running at the Neuburgring. I'd say the M5 has a serious problem.

Drives like "The Stig" on Top Gear, actually - just hammers it into the curves. No fear - and the car isn't complaining much, either.

allargon

Huh... The V8 model on the CTS is the V--not ELLPS. However, that is definitely available with a manual. It doesn't have an automatic. No slushbox posers allowed.

The current gen (no previous gen CTS model) has 6-speed stick available with both the 2.8 and 3.6 V6 engines AFAIK.

The only car in this class AFAIK doesn't have manual available on the top engine is the two-seater with four doors Lexus IS350.

plekto

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/videos/spyshotvideos/203740/cadillac_cts.html

This is the read video. CTS going faster than you'd EVER thing a GM car could go. Nice.

goddess_1

Happy Ending . . .

I got a screaming deal this weekend on the 2006 S60, lo miles, right color, etc! I am happy I didn't go with the MB C280. Plus, now I have a lot more $$ left over for my Starbucks habit. And shoe habit. And . . . :shades:

BTW, you HAVE to check out the 2009 Volvo XC60 "concept" . . . should be a different forum, but I saw it in Popular Mechanics and have fallen in love.

jimjai

Hi guys, I just bought my new lexus and I am so disappointed with the MPG system, I am getting average 10.9mpg which is extremly low. The estimate that Lexus have is 22 for city and 28 for high way and obviously I am getting half of it in the city. Any reason?

blueguydotcom

Lighten up on the go-pedal.

Just kidding. Take it in to Lexus. Maybe there's a problem with your ECU.

jimjai

blueguydotcom I am pretty stupid when it comes to cars, what's ECU?

allargon

The EPA estimate is 22/28. Is it cold where you live right now? Cold weather seriously hurts mileage. Also, is it hilly?

As someone said--ease up on the gas pedal.

blueguydotcom

ECU = essentially car uniqueness. No, engine control unit. The car's brains, in other words. ECU may be monkeying around based on temp or maybe the ECU's just wacky.

jtla

I am so disappointed with the MPG system. I am getting average 10.9 mpg which is extremely low. The estimate that Lexus have is 22 for city and 28 for high way and obviously I am getting half of it in the city.

You may want to calculate the MPG the old fashion way, and compare the result with the trip computer's number. That should help the diagnosis.

tayl0rd

A lot of tire howl, but it looked very composed. Impressive.

mz6greyghost

How many miles on the Lexus? I wouldn't worry so much about fuel economy until at least 1000 miles or so. Fuel economy usually improves after the engine gets "broken in".

circlew

The V looks good, however in this forum, the regular 6 versions will no doubt be on the lower end of the performance ladder vs. others, IMO. Cheaper yes. Desirable? Eye of the beholder.

Regards,
OW

readerreader

Cadillac almost had to make the 6-speed stick an option on both powertrains, since I'm sure I wasn't the only one that was disappointed with the lack of a manual on the V8 model on the prev-gen.
------------------------------

What are you talking about?
Th current CTS has only one "V8 model"--the CTS-V and it only has a manual.

bruceomega

OW,

I assume you're talking about the 2008 CTS. I was wondering why you think the 6 cylinder versions will be at the lower end of the performance ladder versus others? The more powerful of the two V-6s is advertised as 300 hp.

Thanks
Bruce

circlew

Bruce,

The total performance has power as only one aspect. I refer to the whole package. I think the 335, IS350, A4 and the G will outclass the CTS if considered from a total performance perspective.

Regards,
OW

plekto

A lot of tire howl, but it looked very composed. Impressive.

I wonder that that guy in the VW thought to see a Cadillac come up on his bumper like a M5.

Yeah, RWD, 6 cylinders, 300HP, and a manual gearbox... Most high-end V8 musclecars frmo the 60s and 70s didn't put out more power. Certainly didn't handle as well, that's for sure. 300HP is more than enough to smoke the tires if you want.

circlew

Muscle cars blew their rears quite often also. The CTS-V seems to have this in common. Hopefully the '08 CTS 300HP can keep the parts in the car.

Regards,
OW

circlew

Here is a post from a Surgeon in CA with additional problems:

James
Marina, CA

Reply »
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Flag for Review
Mar 31, 2006

I have an 05 CTS-V which had 19,450 miles on it. I am a surgeon, and I drive an enormous number of miles each week to operate at multiple Northern California hospitals.

Recently, while rolling to a stop, the conroller arm FELL OFF the car, causing my front end to dig into the ground and grind to a halt. Needless to say, had I been going freeway speeds, I wouldn't be writing this right now, rather one of you would be writing my epitaph.

Cadillac/GM treated this like a normal warranty repair. Apparently, a bolt that holds the control arm to the frame was not properly put together! They simply put it back together, and told me everything was all right-- and wanted me to drive it away. They claim this was a freak accident, and the car is now completely safe (despite no way of knowing whether the steering column, engine mounts, air bags, etc., are not properly assembled).

You can imagine that I was not interested in getting into a 400 HP car and driving when I can't be sure the thing won't fall apart on the road. I'm selling, at a huge loss. GM would do NOTHING for me. Wouldn't buy back the car, wouldn't give me something else to drive. In fact, the local dealer was more interested in his payment for an oil change rather than the fact that this car almost killed me.

To hell with Cadillac and GM.

DON'T BUY THIS CAR!

bruceomega

OW,

Yes, I agree with assessing total performance and not just power.

I don't recall seeing any information about the design of the chassis, suspension, etc. on the 2008 CTS, or any test drives, so I'm going to wait until I form any opinions on it.

Thanks
Bruce

habitat1

A surgeon buying a GM? Hopefully, not a brain surgeon. That poor judgement would be enough to have his medical license revoked. :surprise:

circlew

Agree. What was he thinking? At least a Z06 if he had to but domestic.

The point is that a recall for the problems turned out to be the wrong metal for the washer used in the control arm assembly. Also, rear axle assembly was a problem for the early V's, vis-a-vis wheel hop. Typical GM/Ford/DCX stuff.

You can't Wal-Mart your suppliers to death and achieve high-quality products.

Regards,
OW

dfc3

Congratulations. I missed the earlier thread (which I've now read), but ironically, I traded my 2004 Volvo S60 in for a 2006 MB C280 9 months ago. I, OTOH, am very happy with the tradeoff.

But... it all depends what's important. The S60 was too big; had too wide a turning radius; didn't operate all that well (relatively) in the snow/ice (I'm in Northern Illinois). The MB C280 is narrower (I live in an urban area), has a great turning radius, and with the 4-matic, I'm leaving others to flounder in our current snow-covered mess.

Congrats on your decision; I think the comments on the board earlier gave a good viewpoint.