Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

frisconick

Acura and Infiniti has sporty sedans. But G35 coupe is very hot. :shades:

blueguydotcom

Acura and Infiniti has sporty sedans.

What are you talking about? :confuse: The guy asked about sport sedans.

goddess_1

I know, I know! Sigh. But, the TL burns a little more fuel (mpg), has a BLACK steering wheel (hello - I live in the SW, and is tacky against the tan interior I like!), and sets my heart aflutter even less than the Volvo. Lexus body styling is all fad, not classic enough. Infiniti gets crappy gas mileage. I see old MBs and Volvos all over the place -- they can't be THAT bad for the long term . . . I guess I'm arguing more with myself than with you! The feedback is appreciated.

blueguydotcom

You're buying for body style? Okey dokey.

All the cars in this group get crappy mileage. They make big claims but the reality is that very few will see more than 22-23 on a normal day.

Volvos and MBs of the 1980s were made during a different era. Today MB and Volvo are part of american car companies and their quality reflects that.

gooddeal2

My uncle used to have a '93 Volvo 740 Turbo and I can say that it had more problems than any other cars that we ever owned, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan and Infiniti.

Styling? I think…only those in the 50s and up or very conservative people who like MB or Volvo.

goddess_1

Hah! Not even in my 40s, buddy - I just happen to have discerning taste for classic styling! :P If I'm going to spend more than $20K for something, I should at least like the way it looks. Or, at least not hate the way it looks. Otherwise -- and I absolutely mean this -- I would rather not buy ANYthing. Which is why I still have the car that I have . . .

frisconick

I lived in Phoenix for a while, and the color of the steering wheel man meaningless if your car is baking in the sun. I literally used oven mits at times to drive sometimes.

pat

It would be good if some of you could respond to goddess_1's specific question - she said she wanted to choose between the MB and the Volvo.

I know there are reliability questions for both brands and that she said reliability is a priority, but now that you've all told her to pick something she wasn't asking about , maybe you could give her some feedback on her original question.

habitat1

Fair enough, pat.

goddess_1 doesn't want to experience pain (excessive maintenance and repairs over 8-10 years), so she's asking us which is better, a sharp stick in the eye (Volvo) or bamboo under the finger nails (Mercedes). I too might have suggested a third or fourth alternative that required hardly any spilling of blood whatsoever, but if those are the only choices, I'd vote for Mercedes. I know a lot more people that have eeked 130k miles out of Mercedes than Volvos without getting nickle and dimed (or dollared) to death. And they look better in the process. But with either one, I'd be tempted to get an extended warranty.

You might want look at the used car lots of your local Mercedes and Volvo dealers for 6-8 year old specimens and think about which you would have been happier with, had you made this decision in 1999. I suspect Mercedes.

louiswei

If money isn't an issue then I'd go with C280, otherwise the S60 isn't too bad of a choice either. It's a toss-up IMO honestly. Make sure you go with your heart not your brain so you won't have buyer's remorse in the future.

I used to like Volvo back in the late 80's and early 90's but now whenever I see a Volvo I see a glorified Ford. :sick:

fedlawman

Only the new Volvo's have Ford DNA in them (mostly it's Ford's borrowing from Volvo DNA).

The S60 is a 5 or 6 year old platform (MY2001 I think) so that argument is moot.

I also don't buy into the whole reliability argument. Maybe the Japanese cars have a very slight edge in "predicted reliability" over the long haul, but all new cars today are pretty darn reliable. In all likelihood, a new Volvo or Mercedes, if properly maintained, will make just as fine a 10 year old car as a Honda or Toyota.

I work for a federal government agency, and we have a fleet of about 60 American cars assigned out to us. We keep all of these Dodge pickups, Ford Explorers & Tauruses, Chevy Luminas & Blazers, etc. for 7-8 years and 100,000 miles. In the 13 years I've worked for the feds, I've never seen a single car go out of service due to catastrophic mechanical failure - and we drive these cars hard. I've had more than a dozen cars assigned to me over the years, and I've never had a major breakdown. In fact, after I surplussed my M-B S420 last fall, I was assigned a beautiful '99 Ford Taurus. I've had it since July and so far, it's tight as a drum and trouble free.

I'm certain that a Mercedes or Volvo, driven normally and maintained properly, will provide years of reliable, comfortable service. Don't get sucked in by all the anecdotal hype you read here and elsewhere. Cars are machines designed and built by humans. No car is perfect, and any car can have it's share of problems. Buy the one you like best and enjoy it.

louiswei

after I surplussed my M-B S420 last fall, I was assigned a beautiful '99 Ford Taurus.

Just out of curiosity, how did you go from S420 to a Taurus? Are both of them provided from your agency?

ricka1

Drove the 07 TL and G35. The TL handled nicely even with the FWD. The G was somewhat tighter. Both had nicely appointed interiors. The TL is somewhat wider on the inside but not by much. My issue is the trunk. Didn't have my clubs with me but when opening the trunk--especially the opening--the G35 looked pretty small. The salesman said a full staff bag will fit though. Any golfers have an issue with this? I carry my bag a lot due to the job. Even if that fits, doesn't look like much else would.

I want to like the G35 because its styling looks sleeker than the somewhat bloated appearance of the TL. Since I buy a car about every 6 years it would feel good getting something that looked new.

I could use some help on this before trying the golf bag test myself.

ivan_99

If I were looking at a MB280 and wanted to keep it 8 years, I would wait and get the 08.

The current C class came out in 2001…so 8 years from now in 2015 you’ll still be driving a car that (looks wise) came out 14 years earlier (there’s classic…then there’s dated).

I don’t think the 280 engine has had a major overhaul…but it does deliver 30 more hp; so you may have to deal with first year model issues (but that’s what the warranty is for).

If I were going the S60 route I’d go with a 2 year old certified…you can save a bundle…

goddess_1

Pat - thanks for focusing!

Fedlawman - you said what this teeny, tiny voice in me was saying, but it was getting drowned out by the clamor of negativity & doubt (my own!) It's exactly what I needed to remind myself of a mistake I made years ago with a similar issue -- I bought a condo I hated that made "good" sense, then regretted it until long after I sold it. For many, there would have been no regrets, but I'm unequivocally my own person(!) who should know by now to listen to my instincts. Even when those instincts are about the size of an amoeba.

So, here's what I'm going to do . . . I'm going for the MB or Volvo from whomever offers me the fairest deal and does so without the schmooze and hi-pressure sales pitch. :P I'll let you guys know what happens . . . should I (or they) survive the experience.

louiswei

goddess_1, you can be really aggressive for the MB since the new C-class is just around the corner.

sprinkler13

In the sedan you should have no trouble with a golf bag. I had a 2003 G35 sedan and I was able to fit all of my hockey gear in there, and that was 2 full bags (one for goalie gear, one for regular gear), and a set of goalie leg pads, and the all my sticks running thru the pass thru. I now have an 07, and while the nav/6 disc changer takes up a bit more space, I have easily been able to fit one of my sets of gear and have room to spare. It might not fit both sets anymore, but I rarely need them both so it's a non-issue. Golf equipment shouldn't be a problem either.

fedlawman

"how did you go from S420 to a Taurus?"

The Mercedes was a seizure. The Taurus, like 90% of our cars, was a GSA purchase. I don't work the street any more so no more cool seizures for me.

"you said what this teeny, tiny voice in me was saying"

You'll get good advice here, but most people think of a car as an appliance to get from point A to point B. For most people, an Accord or Camry is all the car they'll ever need, so choosing the Lexus or Acura is a no brainer. You, on the other hand, have expressed some feelings about what you want. For you, you deserve a car that makes you feel good.

FWIW, I had a 2001 Volvo V70 wagon (purchased CPO in 2003 with 23,000 miles on the odo). The car was totaled after my wife was struck head-on by a van going 40 MPH. We didn't give it a second thought - replaced it with a new 2004 V70. Luxury package, rear-facing 3rd row jump seats, and 16" alloys where the only add-ons. Smooth ride, quiet interior, luxurious appointments, high quality materials - best minivan I never owned. I'm a very satisfied Volvo owner.

pat

Heh, listening to one's own instincts is a lesson too hard earned, I completely understand! Let us know how it goes.

qbrozen

so i take it you have driven both, right?

what you didn't share is what ELSE is important to you besides reliability.

The C280 and S60 are very different cars. The S60 is a bit bigger. If you get a T5, its definitely faster in a straight line. BUT, its fwd. The C280 will have better resale ... but in 8-10 years, that's not going to matter very much. Either car will only be worth a few grand, at best.

I'm surprised ... no, shocked ... they are the same price. Considering benzes are more new and have better resale ... are you sure you are looking at comparable vehicles and you KNOW the real price on them (not asking prices, as, in my experience, volvo dealers ask WAAAY more for their used cars than they are worth).

kyfdx

Not to mention...(okay, I will)

FWD vs. RWD

If that is at all important to you..

regards,
kyfdx
(not the host here)

qbrozen

i did mention that. :b

kyfdx

I have a very short memory...

frisconick

Geat advice, a used car can save a bundle.

joe131

the 2004 V70 may be the best minivan you ever owned, but its handling is atrocious, and it is slow.
The BEST minivan (under $100,000) ever produced is the 2007 Corvette Z06. Now THAT is a nice handling, fast minivan!

goddess_1

If I told what else was important to me in a car, you'd roll your eyes! :surprise: Since I feel like I nearly live in my car, I am looking for some serious creature comforts. Hey, I'm worth it. And, safety is a must -- I swear, it's like other drivers are AIMING for me!

As far as FWD or AWD goes, I'm sticking with FWD -- where I live, AWD is completely unnecessary in terms of use, and hence, expense. Rain? Snow? Forget it! (No offense to you ski lovers.)

HP, RPMs & torque are not my thing -- I expect to step on the gas and move along . . . not at a turtle's pace (my lead foot will take of that), but my ego isn't attached to my 0-60 time, either. If it was, I definitely would not be considering either of these vehicles! That's a major reason I won't go for a BMW -- it may be fast, but the ride is too rigid & uncomfortable for my tastes - I prefer to float along at the cost of some oomph & handling performance.

As for the pricing difference (or lack thereof) - I guess it comes down to the C280 being classed as MB's entry level vehicle, and the S60 as Volvo's mid-level class. In truth, the C280 is ~$2.5K-3.5K more, but I don't really consider that significant at this price range (hi $20s actual value, give or take.) Other people may view it differently. I'm finding both the C280 and S60 are offered at quite inflated prices (I live in a region that lives or dies by their vehicle class.) But, if I wanted inflated, I'd buy new.

qbrozen

well, that says a lot. If you do live in your car (ie, spend ALOT of time in it), I'd say go for the volvo. You won't find more comfortable seats.

fedlawman

Yes, it is slow but it handles better than the host of Odysseys, Tahoes, and Sequoias we looked at.

Did Chevy finally introduce the Z06 with the 3rd row split-fold seating option? I knew I should have waited for MY07!

redsoxgirl

Let's see. Female, under 40, single, lives in the SW (mostly in a car) where it doesn't rain or snow. And you are trying to choose between a Mercedes C280 and a Volvo S60? I doubt I'd want to trade jobs or cars with you, but as I'm slushing through the first snow of Boston while my 911 sits in the garage, I wouldn't mind trading locations for the next couple of months.

There were some inconsistencies in your previous posts. I assume you know that the Mercedes is RWD, not FWD as your previous post indicated you wanted to stick with. And, from what I've seen, the C280 would run close to $40k new loaded up with "serious creature comforts". And you alternated from indicating you were looking at 06/07 models (new) to "if I wanted inflated, I'd buy new".

I'm not exactly sure what you want and am hesitant to give advice, but...from a (barely) 30's something female to another, I offer two alternatives. A nice "certified" used low mileage 04/05 Boxster S, preferably in Speed Yellow, loaded with amenities for around $35k. It will get you better gas mileage and a boatload more smiles than the old folks cars you are considering.

Or, given that that suggestion is probably already in the trash can, search around for a used, low mileage 2005 E320 CDI. They can be had in the mid to high $30's (less than a new C280). The E-class is a big step up from the C-class. More comfortable, better built, lasts longer, etc. The CDI will give you considerably better gas mileage (35+ highway), with better acceleration than the other two.

I can't even pick between your choices. Way, way too boring.

Sorry, came over here because a friend is looking to get a ELLPS, as they call them. I'll get on with my other business.

goddess_1

You're right - I meant RWD! Used '07 C280s are already starting to show up here . . . fickle, ADD buyers around here. "Real" sports cars like yours are not suited for me, but thanks for your input. Hopefully, the winter won't last too long for you!

crkline2

I should have done this test, as I carry my clubs all the time! I am in Santa Barbara, so safe to leave clubs in the trunk all the time, e.g. does not get too hot. I need to have at least space for two sets of clubs. Mine and my playing partner. Ughhh, that was stupid of me to not check this out. Too late now, my car arrives in a month.

That is why I did not buy a convertible - none of them had a trunk big enough for more than one set of clubs, and most could not fit one set of clubs.

Cliff

joe131

Maybe that's because the Volvo is a station wagon and those others are minivans or trucks?

habitat1

Now that I think about it, I'll second redsoxgirl nomination of a used 2005 E320 CDI as a viable alternative to the new or slightly used 20007 C280.

My marketing director has an E320 CDI, the sales manager that works for her has a 2004 C240. We have driven both of them to lunch together on dozens of occassions. The E320 is in a whole different league above the C class. Frankly, even with the imrpovements and revisions for the 2007 model, the C class just seems too much like a mediocre car for those that must have the Mercedes badge. It is NOT on the same playing field as the BMW 3 series, which has tremendous attributes in its own right (i.e. separate from the 5 series) as the best performing, best handling ELLPS. The C class seems like it's simply geared to those that can't afford the E class. IMO, the C class is a definite notch down from the TL.

When you look at how well the E320 CDI holds its value, plus the great fuel economy and moderate maintenance requirements, it's not much more expensive, if at all, than a gussied up C280. I'd go for the real thing, especially if comfort is a primary concern. The E320CDI is silky smooth at 75-80 on the highway. The C class feels like a Toyota by comparison. Which is not bad, but not great.

Try to find some ADD sellers of CDI's.

fedlawman

The V70's handling isn't "atrocious." I'd say it's simply "not sporty."

It has a smooth ride that absorbs all manner of road imperfections, yet it corners with minimal roll. It leans and pushes through corners about as bad as a Honda Accord - not sporty, but not flaccid either.

We love it for it's suprememly comfortable seats, airy interior, light but communicative steering, and very nice leather and wood trimmed interior. The cockpit is very driver oriented, and it's a pleasure to drive around town and on long freeway treks. Of course the safety engineering built into it goes without saying.

Better tires and firmer springs/shocks would make it a sporty handler, but even stock, it's more than adequate for transporting 4 kids (+ equipment) to soccer practice or taking 2-week road trips down to California.

Anyways, it's by far the most comfortable, stylish, economical (30+ MPG hwy), and sportiest vehicle that I can think of that seats 7 or hauls sheetrock with the tailgate closed. It's got plenty of passing power in the mountains - even fully loaded, and it's been as trouble free as any Honda I've ever owned - and I've owned 5 over the years.

I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. You cannot have uncompromised comfort and sport in one car. I do think that, if you're willing to compromise, the ELLPS segment is as good a compromise as any, but I tried to live with an ELLPS and I didn't like it. For me, the only solution was to own 2 cars with very distinct personalities/functions. The Volvo V70 for serene errand running/family touring, and the BMW M3 for weekend canyon carving and racetrack lapping.

pat

Interesting, timely article: Finding Great Perks for Hybrid Buyers.

merc1

I had a 2006 C280 4Matic for a loaner car recently and it didn't drive anything like my CLK. I was shocked. It didn't have the Mercedes ride or feel. It is as if the C has been seriously decontented over the last few years. I drove a 2001 C320 Sport when the C first came out and I remember it driving way better than the recent C280. Strange.

M

m1miata

So the tax payers are subsidizing Toyota and other hybrids - wonderful. And they get to use a special lane on the freeway - wonderful. Why not just let the rich buy the lane use -- oh wait, they can not do that as well. Oh well, I am not living in a big city, only paying for the cars.

Yet another luxury car -- the special lane and free parking hybrid.

When those Prius cars reach the end of their life cycle, I bet they will make pretty cool skateboard ramps. A local dealership has over 20 in stock right now. Must no longer be in demand. Ah, but there is $3.50 gas pricing ahead for 2007 -- well maybe there is. That said, I still would not want such a beast.
-Loren

habitat1

Your experience is similar to what I have heard among my friends with Mercedes. Older "C"s, albeit always smaller than the E, were more substantial feeling and not nearly as much of a stepchild. More recently, the gap between the E and C has risen, at least in the subjective driving feel and "solidity".

The CLK, as best I can tell, notwithstanding it's links to the C, has always been a separate class and has not suffered the same degredation. I still remember my first time in an early CLK thinking this is what a "cockpit" should look and feel like in a sport coupe. It looked and drove better than the E class, IMO. Made me even consider giving up my requirement for a manual transmission! Unfortunately, it was way above my affordability level at the time.

habitat1

Actually, there is a pretty good case to be made that tax payers (federal income) are subsidizing all vehicles - especially SUV's - a hell of a lot more than hybrids.

Consider that Arnold Schwartzenager's 10 mpg 6,000+ lb Hummers qualified for 100% accelerated tax write-offs. As does your friendly lawyer's GX470, doctor's Range Rover Sport and Tiki Barber's Escalade.

Add the cost of the war in Iraq to the list of items that some say should be funded (or at least substantially so) with a federal gas tax, and we'd rip right through $3.50 a gallon on our way to $7.00. After all, you don't think we'd be willing to spend as much or sacrifice as much to promote democracy in a region that wan't sitting on trillions of barrels of oil, do you?

I hate partisan "politics". I believe in economics and free market capitalism. Unfortunately, the average mass market Joe is going to be just as fuel efficient as his wallet requires, and the auto manufacturers need to be shown the money before they work on fuel efficiency as much as cup holder design for Tiki's behemouth. If I have to pay $7.00 per gallon to fill up the tank on my 19/26 mpg 911S or non-tax deductable, 18/23 mpg MDX, so be it. I'm paying a shipload more than that now out of my income tax to subsidize a fleet of tax deductable $60k+ 10-14 mpg SUV's. Giving a $5k break to someone driving a 40+ mpg Prius is the least of my worries - and probably a step in the right direction in the long term.

merc1

The CLK, as best I can tell, notwithstanding it's links to the C, has always been a separate class and has not suffered the same degredation. I still remember my first time in an early CLK thinking this is what a "cockpit" should look and feel like in a sport coupe. It looked and drove better than the E class, IMO. Made me even consider giving up my requirement for a manual transmission! Unfortunately, it was way above my affordability level at the time.



Well the CLK430 Cabriolet has finally come down to my affordability level, specifically this 2003 example.

M

frisconick

When CA decided to demand an increase in mpg, Detriot spent millions lobbying against it, while Toyota created the Prius and is making a bundle on the car. Whan will Detriot ever learn?

m1miata

The same Arnie, worried about global warming still owns a Hummer? Not as I do, just do as I say, is the line for the day!

When the money runs down and things are looking tight for government income, my guess is that the VAT tax becomes the law of the land.

It is interesting to see a lot of luxury car owners, as in those with the thick wallets, bought the Prius. A new status symbol. The ultimate near luxury auto Funny looking thing, with what I could only imagine to have limited handling and fun factor. OK-ok, the impress your neighbors with the technology is the fun factor. Yeaaa, or whoopee :P They are staking up on the lot now. Guess they are all too common a car for the rich now to own. Next up is the SUV hybrid. It is good that they will be saving gas now.
-Loren

frisconick

I bought my 05 TL for 31k and the state tax was almost 3k!

ivan_99

The CLK, as best I can tell, notwithstanding it's links to the C, has always been a separate class and has not suffered the same degredation. I still remember my first time in an early CLK thinking this is what a "cockpit" should look and feel like in a sport coupe. It looked and drove better than the E class, IMO. Made me even consider giving up my requirement for a manual transmission! Unfortunately, it was way above my affordability level at the time.

I think the "old" CLK 98-2002 was based on the E class platform; and didn't use the C Class platform until after the new C class came out (01 or so).

So buying an older CLK you are ~in some way~ getting an E class.

m1miata

I am thinking of moving to Oregon some day = no sales tax. And gas is cheaper too, when compared to Calif.
-Loren

blueguydotcom

And everybody drives sooooo slowly.

merc1

I think the "old" CLK 98-2002 was based on the E class platform; and didn't use the C Class platform until after the new C class came out (01 or so).

Actually the first 1998 CLK W208 was based on the 1994 C-Class too, the CLK has always been based on the C. The last E-Class-based coupes were the 1988-1995 300CE/E320 Coupes.

M

pat

Isn't gas cheaper than California everywhere, at least in the States?

plekto

You *can* get a CLK in manual, though they are hard to find on a dealer's lot.

My co-worker has a CLK320(CLK230 with the big engine in it) and with manual, it's as quick as a Porsche. Agile as one, too - seriously overkill for almost any driving that you could want to do.

maximafan

Oh, Man, I remember the '84-'85 Supras. I was
in love with that car! I remember the wheels
looked so "Ffat" on that car. To me it was the
bomb back then!!