Describe your GM, Ford or Chrysler classic muscle car

Mr_Shiftright

Really, if GM had taken a 1968 Nova, downsized it to 3/4 size, and squared it off Euro style and installed 4-speed floor shift attached to small inline 6 cylinder, it would have been an American Volvo in all respects.

andys120

speedshift

Interestingly enough, the Big 3 did offer that in the early '60s. Falcon, Nova, Dart, Valiant, even the first Chevelle. All of them were available at one time or another with the six and a four speed.

andys120

VWs were finished well and things were always lined up properly and such but I had a TR-4 that needed to have it's red coat buffed out every other year and my '65 beetle was just as bad.

Yes they were waxed (I did the TR nearly every month)regularly.

I miss seeing red cars with the color and reflectance of bricks (a common sight in those days).

Mr_Shiftright

I picked a 6 for the Nova because GM had a good one at the time. The GM fours were rough and I don't think would have competed against the Volvo.

But of course many Americans didn't want those whiney little foreign engines, they wanted (and got) power, which makes these muscle cars worth a hell of a lot more than an old Volvo today.

jrosasmc

From all my years observing the market for muscle cars, people really want the top-line vehicles, like '70 Trans Am 455s, Hemi GTX coupes, Mustang Boss 302s, and the like. Those cars will command top dollar if a restoration was first class and numbers were matching. But I have one question. What about the luxury versions of the old American muscle cars, such as the Firebird Esprit, Barracuda Gran Coupe, Camaro Type LT, Mustang Grande, etc? Even with the most powerful V-8 engines in them, will these unloved models ever command good money than their performance-oriented brethren?

speedshift

You forgot the Challenger SE.

The Camaro Type LT replaced the SS in 1973. The problem with this car is the problem with all Camaros from the mid-'70s: detuned engines. And since no one's ever heard of it the collectibility isn't there.

The SE and Gran Coupe options were available with the R/T and 'Cuda packages. You can tell them by the thickly padded vinyl top and small back window. I can tell you from experience that this window does not improve outward vision. IIRC the rest of the package consists of a cheesy overhead console and other cheesy trim pieces. I suppose it adds value in the sense that it's one more option on a 'Cuda or R/T but as a stand-alone option, it wasn't a big seller and no one's written a song about it.

andre1969

...if you want a late '60's Euro-style car, I'd take a '68 Valiant with a 225 slant six and a 4-speed. They're already squared off, and by '68, I'm sure they were smaller and lighter than a Nova or Falcon. I know they were about 188" long, compared to the Dart's 196". The Falcon may have been pretty stubby, but I think the Nova added a lot of length for its '68 restyle.

I remember reading an old Consumer Reports test of a '67 or '68 Valiant with the 225 and an automatic. It did 0-60 in 13 seconds. Laugh if you want, but they'd usually get more like 14-17 second times out of most compacts with the bigger six-cylinder engines and automatics back then And the smaller sixes, of the under 200 CID variety, were worse than that! And by the '70's, they were lucky to get 13 seconds out of most compacts with a standard V-8!

If somebody so desired, would you have been able to order a Valiant back then with a 225 and a 4-speed? I know a 3-speed manual was standard, and the vast majority of them had 3-speed Torqueflite automatics, but could you get a 4-speed, if you wanted?

andys120

What a peculiar combination.

sebringjxi

Seems I recall a more recent magazine article (in the 80's I suspect) that noted the fit and finish of the hand-hammered Ferrari was no where as good as the Honda Civic that cost fractions of the Ferrari. In the Ferrari it's called "character" in American cars it's called "sloppy". Also, wasn't there an article about some famous Aston Martin....one off job or something like that just recently that reminded the readers that a number of Aston's came out of the factory with one door 1/2 longer than the other, different guy hammering the aluminum--taking some liberty with the specs......

Mr_Shiftright

Well let the fool who wrote that article try to shape an aluminum body by hand and see if he gets it as perfect as a Japanese robot stamping machine!

The Americans had no excuse at the time. They had the machines but ran them ragged and also the assembly of the parts was very haphazard.

Besides, Ferrari himself said something like "you buy a Ferrari, you buy an engine, and we throw in the body for free".

The fit and finish on Ferrari engines, the castings and machining, is spectacular and nothing American or Japanese can touch it. So that's another angle on all this.

speedshift

I ran across a six cylinder '65 Valiant with a four speed. It was the only one I've ever seen--actually I heard it, it was next to me in traffic, and I saw the driver rowing through the gears--so I don't know if it was factory or not. I'd think it almost had to be--who would go to that trouble on his own?

Mr_Shiftright

I actually owned that very car, a '65 Valiant with a 4 speed. It was pretty fast, too, but rather crude compared to a GM product. You know, all the work of shifting an American 4-speed of the time, but without the real muscle under the hood to make it worth while! It was a factory setup but it felt like something someone installed--a Hurst shifter with that flagpole shift lever and scrunchy feel and long throws. We are not talking Jaguar Mark II here.

I think such a car could be modified to be far more pleasant and interesting. For one thing, the 99 turns lock to lock on the steering could be cut down, and some kind of short-shifter would be nice, and some soundproofing on the firewall and transmission hump for that rock crusher driveline. Or maybe the engine & flywheel could be balanced. That would have helped a lot.

speedshift

Was it white?

I imagine the four speed was the same wide ratio New Process (?) box they used behind the 273. Probably only available with the 225. A sleeper like that would really appeal to me and maybe two other guys.

Ironically a younger woman was driving the car, and really putting her all into the shifting--it probably took all the strength she had. Some car makers would buy the Hurst shifter handle but use their own linkage so the moving parts were the same stuff they'd been using since 1938 ;-).

Mr_Shiftright

Green and white as I recall. Now that car with a V8 and 4-speed would have been more interesting.

speedshift

I knew a guy who did have that car with a V8 and four speed, and it was the 273 four barrel. Great engine, as strong as the Mustang K motor but not nearly as expensive (or famous).

Mr_Shiftright

or attractive.

speedshift

That too.

speedshift

The real Hurst linkage is a real joy to operate. One of the many wonderful things about '60s Pontiacs is that they used the whole Hurst linkage, not just the stuff that showed.

Still there's no hiding the fact you're moving big gears around but I like a transmission that feels substantial. And a clutch that works out your left leg. And steering with some heft to it.

Not many of us old-timers left.

speedshift

Getting back to jrosas' question about luxury ponies, the problem with the Mustang Grande is that it only came as a notchback and from '69 on the notchback just wasn't hip.

None of the performance Mustangs--Mach I, Boss 302, Boss 429--were notchbacks. I saw a feature on a Grande with the 428 CJ but that's a rare bird.

Since it's performance image that sells Mustangs, the Grande doesn't have much of a chance.

gshumway1

I always wondered why my left leg was stronger than my right. Now I know. It was all that driving 60's and 70's GM Saginaw and Borg manuals!

andys120

This weeks Autoweek has an item on an auction in Massachusetts where a '74 Ferrari 365 GT/Boxer Berlinetta went for a little over $68k.

This is interesting in light of this winter's sale of a '70 Chevy Malibu SS 454/LS6 for a much higher price $172,000!

Even if the Ferrari was not as pristine as the Chevy something seems out of whack. Are muscle car prices going to sustain this high level (many more ordinary muscle cars sell in the $70-$85k range nowadays)?

speedshift

I think we're talking about two completely separate and unrelated markets, almost like parallel universes.

If two completely different market segments collect Ferraris and musclecars, collectors of each won't be cross-shopping the two for relative value. Maybe the very best of each, the "trophy cars", are compared by the super wealthy collectors, but my guess is that's it.

As to which car has the enduring value, my vote goes to Ferrari but appeal is based as much on memories and emotion as on engineering excellence.

You young whippersnappers will be around to see if anyone still gets weak in the knees about Hemi 'Cudas after we boomers are gone.

jrosasmc

It seems as if the 1967-69 Barracudas don't get any respect on the market these days. I will see one on occasion, but I am still waiting for the day when I'll see the famed, but rare '69 383 'Cuda S. Where are they?

andys120

I've never heard of a Barracuda S.

speedshift

It was the sporty Barracuda, going back to 1965 when it had the four barrel 273 standard. The '65 S had bigger drum brakes, HD suspension, wider wheels, tach, quick-ratio steering and the hot tire at that time, the Goodyear Blue Streak.

The 383 showed up in 1968 along with the 340. The 340 was more of a performance engine but cubic inches counted in those days so they shoehorned in the 383. IIRC the exhaust manifolds had to be smaller and more restrictive than on the intermediates.

Right at the very end of the 1969 model year I'm just about positive a few 440 'Cudas were built. I don't think the hemi appeared in production Barracudas until 1970 although I'm sure the factory built a few '68-9s with hemis to race in Super Stock.

The problem with all the Barracudas from 1964 to 1969 is that they looked more like sedans than pony cars. In 1970 they solved that problem by copying the '67 Camaro but by that time the pony car era was just about over.

speedshift

Speaking of small MoPars, here's one you've never heard of: the 383 Dart. I've seen a few but don't know much about them. Apparently they built them in '68 or '69. 340 Darts were fairly common and the 340 was undoubtedly a much better engine for a compact. A 383 Dart must have been a handful but for novelty value it couldn't be beat.

Here's a link to a great site I found, a very nice amateur effort:

http://home.earthlink.net/~keshura/

According to this guy they made almost as many 383 Torqueflites as 340 four speeds but he's only talking about GTSs. I think when you factor in the Dart Swinger and whatever else they offered the 340 in, the 340 was much more common. At least that was my experience. I will say that the only 383 GTSs I saw were Torqueflies.

ghulet

...who has a factory '68 Hemi Dart, but I haven't heard of the Dart 383.

andre1969

...why the word "musclecar" is diluted, just read this Edmunds review of the upcoming Marauder...

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/63937/article.html

They've got the word "musclecar" splattered all over that page! Better get on 'em about it, Shifty ;-)

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I give up. Hyundais are sportscars, 88 Buicks are classics so I guess full size sedans can be musclecars. Let's just call language meaningless and enjoy the rest of our lives.

lexington37

I have a 1977 Plymouth Roadrunner. I understand these cars are pretty rare .I know I am having a hard time finding parts for a restoration. The car is orange.T-TOPS ,Fender flairs and spoilers,rally wheels,360 engine auto transmission with console,black int.,am-fm 8 track that still works,Air conditioning,window louvers,think car has all options avail.Does anyone know company's that can get parts for this critter such as t-top weather stripping and such ,please let me know.And does anyone know what the value of this car would be.

corsicachevy

"Oh, I give up. Hyundais are sportscars, 88 Buicks are classics so I guess full size sedans can be musclecars." - Shiftright.

Could a 1988 Buick Reatta be considered a classic? Potential near-classic?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think so Corsica, since it seems that all the cars we now call "classics" or even "hot collectibles" were hits when they were new, cars that were loved and talked about and sought after. Reatta just fell off the table.

I'd say more of a "curiosity", kind of a back-shelf collectible of some limited value with no chance of ever gaining much respect.

lexington37

So what do you think of the 77 Roadrunner..Classic?..Muscle Car?.. Collectable?.. or what

Mr_Shiftright

Just a used car--a touch above a Scamp

speedshift

I've been in a Scamp and it wouldn't be hard for a '77 Roadrunner to be a substantial improvement. The horsepower isn't there like it was in '68, that's for sure, but there's still some torque plus what I imagine is some fairly entertaining handling.

Probably a decent package but it's not a Roadrunner. They should have called it something with a more small-block flavor like "Duster". Of course a number of the second-generation RRs had the 340 but the car is better known for its big blocks. Using the Roadrunner name doesn't do justice to either the '68 or the '77.

andre1969

...at the time though, those Volare-based Roadrunners were probably roadburners by comparison. I agree it was kind of an insult to the name, but Detroit is famous for that. It's very, very rare that a car name ever gets improved upon...usually it gets moved downscale (Bel Air, Fairlane, Impala, Belvedere, etc) and once it's down to cheap fleet specials or some other shell of its former self, it gets dumped.

Pontiac did something similarly evil with the GTO, moving it to the compact Ventura platform for swan-song '74. Standard engine was a 350. I think it had 180 hp by that time. I can't remember for sure, but I think those Volare Roadrunners and the Dodge Aspen R/T had 195 hp from their 360's. Sounds sad, but not too many cars could boast that by the '77-79 era, at least not from an engine that "small" ;-) I'd imagine the 360 4-bbl had one of the better hp-cubic inch ratios of the time!

speedshift

Wasn't there a small truck about that time that used the 360 and held the title of fastest car in America?

andre1969

...the L'il Red Express or L'il Red Wagon, that was sold in the late '70's. It was a full-size Dodge pickup with a short bed, and smoke stacks reminiscent of a big rig. I think the first ones had 440's, but the final models had the high-output 360-4bbl. I do remember reading somewhere that either one would whomp a Corvette of the time period. Then again, by that time, just about any police car could probably do the same ;-)

FWIW, I also remember reading that around '74-76, the Duster/Dart Sport 360's were the fastest cars in America. By that time, I think they still had around 220-240 hp, and were fairly lightweight, so I guess that's not TOO implausible.

lexington37

I think there was the LIL RED EXPRESS and ONE ALSO CALLED THE WARLOCK

andys120

Just about any old clunk with a V8 would outun the Dodge Diplomats that were the favored "police interceptor" of the era.

andre1969

...Diplomats were not used as police interceptors until around 1980-81. I'm sure that some Diplomats found their way into police fleets before that, but they would've just been the plain-Jane models with, at best, a 318-4bbl putting out about 155 hp or a 360-2bbl putting out around 150. The 195 hp engine went into the Aspen/Volare and the R-body Newport/St. Regis. A lot of these cars however, even though they were police cars, still got stuck with 318's or the low-suds 360. And by 1980, the 318-2 was down to 120 hp, and the 360-2 was a measly 130 hp.

Actually, I'm not sure if the 360-4bbl ever even went into an M-body (at least not "officially") By the time the police forces were using the M-body, they were mainly using 318-4bbls with 165 hp, which got bumped to 175 hp around '85-86 (or whenever they dumped the Carter carb for the Quadrajet). Still, some police forces still ordered 318-2bbls, or even 225 Slant Sixes (when they were still available)

As for the Warlock, I remember that name too, but couldn't remember if it was used on the pickup or the van.

andys120

I still stand by my assertion that any old clunk with 8 cylinders could out run mid-70s cop cars OR
a Dodge diplomat.

I had a buddy in the FBI. He used to switch back and forth between a Diplomat and a Malibu. He preferred the Malibu by a lot.

chris396

I spoke with an LS6 convertible owner. He said that there are only about 9 in existence that have any sort of documentation. He recently sold the car, and I was told by a Corvette restorer, that he got around $150K or more for it. It was a nice car but it was not perfect. The "ultimate" musclecar are selling for some outrageous prices. I was told that the Otis Chandler '71 Hemi Cuda convertible sold for $500K and there was a blue on blue Hemi Cuda convertible that went for $350K. '69 Yenko's are selling for around $80-100K and the aluminum motor ZL1's are going for $100-200K.

Mr_Shiftright

Some of these cars are incredibly rare, hence the crazy prices. But don't expect that all muscle cars are automatically going to hit these heights....they won't because they are not produced in quantities under 25 like some of the cars you mentioned. There is a BIG difference between a production of 7 Hemi Cuda convertibles and 1, 009 'Cuda convertibles. Americans think 1,009 cars is rare, but it isn't in the really hot collectible car markets, not at all.

Of course, rarity itself doesn't mean something is valuable. Somebody has to REALLY care about the car itself. Obviously, a lot of people care about rare muscle cars.

Personally I think paying $400K for a Plymouth is a bit over the top, because it is just an ordinary Plymouth with certain options, but you know, a car is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, and that's the bottom line.

stickguy

I remember the articles from the mid-70's in (I think) C&D where they looked for the fastest car in America (by top speed). The red truck and the dart 340/360 did beat the Vette I believe. I thnk the Dart took top speed, the truck might have been 0-60.

Only reason the truck was there: no emissions controls yet. The Dart was just a nice package (reasonable weight, decent power).

I always like the 340 cars. Better than the 6 cyl '73 duster I had (did the 3-speed stick make it a sports car? How about the sunroof?)