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Renault R5 Revisited

imperial67imperial67 Posts: 4
edited March 9 in Renault
I just ran across the now-expired thread about the Renault R-5. Having inherited a '76 R5 and putting 188,000 miles on it over 22 years, as well as having experience with dozens of other cars, from Fords to Lamborghinis, makes me qualified to comment ! The main problem with the Renault was a lack of competent mechanics in this country and a "couldn't care less" dealer network which didn't want to be bothered learning the car or the replacement parts system. It's French, and it required a whole new way of thinking about its repair. The R5 did not have head gasket problems. Nor did they have rust problems, at least in coastal California. Parts were scarce and expensive ($ 300 for a water pump !) but it was a reasonably well designed car. It used a timing chain, rather than a rubber band as its competition did. It had a number of minor bugs in the electrical system which were easily overcome. It required super grade fuel and even pinged on that, unless the timing was retarded more than factory specs. Yes, they were ugly, but there are even more hideous 2003 model cars by GM and the Japanese on the streets. At least my R5 didn't have the unbearable "LeCar" logo on the doors ! The Achilles' heel of the R-5 was the camshaft, which drove the accessory belts. Replacing the transaxle required removing the pulley from the end of the cam, and using an impact wrench would crack or shatter the camshaft hub at the pulley end(ever seen an engine running with the belts all stopped ?). Many a hapless mechanic finished off an R5 this way. All in all, the problems the R5 had were no more significant than modern cars costing twice as much (example-take a look at Ford Taurus 3.8L complaints on the web, or the Cadillac variable cylinder 8/6/4 engines, or the Oldsmobile diesel cars of the 1980's). The R-5 could carry more stuff than a full sized American sedan, and long items could stick out the sunroof. Would I want another one ? No way, but it was really just a car which got a lot of bad press and incompetent mechanical service from ignorant people.
Geoff Fors, Monterey CA
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Comments

  • merckxmerckx Posts: 565
    Except I think it was a very attractive design-had a lot of charm. I espically liked the long wheelbase to short overall lenght ratio. It gave it a really fantastically commodious cabin-the back seats were quite reasonable. I almost bought a new 1981 as my first new car. My local dealer was also the East coast importer,so they were quite common in my town.
    But to get the huge canvas sunroof,you had to buy the deluxe model,which made it a little pricy,and at the time I was really against "loaded" cars back then. Bought a new Citation for about the same money and kept it for 12 years...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    I hardly think all the problems you mentioned are just "bad press". The car had many inherent engineering issues, as you say, the head gasket. It was a real pain to work on, and, as you say, parts were expensive.

    Certainly Renault, a company with many years experience, could have designed a better, stronger and more accessible automobile.

    Let's face it, it was a nuisance to own, and while there are other cars that are a nuisance, at least with most of them you got great performance or fabulous good looks. With an R5 all you got was the nuisance and a few "Awwww...how cute".

    On behalf of all the tortured R5 owners who suffered under this car, (not you, fortunately!) good riddance to it. The car even had a bad reputation in France. It's the R4 that everyone there respected.

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  • I am not sure where the headgasket issue is coming from. The R-5 did not have headgasket problems unless it was boiled over. What it did have was a wet sleeve cylinder design, i.e. pistons were in liners which sat in the block and were sealed at the bottom with a paper ring and by the headgasket on top (as in Caterpillar tractors.). The bottom paper rings could fail with age, and were torn if you removed the head vertically without rocking it sideways first to break the seal with the liners. Electrolysis also affected the liner seals. Hard to work on ? Yes, especially the starter, which required removal of the engine and transaxle. The R-5 was supposed to compete with the VW Rabbit, which is what most people bought instead. The Rabbit had some cheaper mechanical designs but certainly held up better. But as I said, there are plenty of other cars I have worked on which could give the Renault R-5 a run for its money in the bad-design department. Let's take the Lamborghini Countach carbureted version, for example. You cannot change the air filter elements without removing the entire, intact, intake manifold assemblies from the engine. But then the engine or the head-to-water jacket seals would usually fail long before the filters needed changing anyway... Or the Jaguary XJ-6 with its rocker arm mounts which fall out of the head with age, and Jag's ridiculous solution in the form of added metal fingers to keep everything pushed in place. Gads, what memories !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Oh, you are so right about those other cars...they had some features that were diabolical. But at least you got something for your torment with a Lambo or an XJ6.

    This is why people today are restoring XJs and Lambos and why R5s have long been turned into lawn furniture on Taiwan.

    I'll probably get into big trouble for saying this, but I think Imperial is right about the head gasket issue. They gasked blew after the first overheat, and the reason so many were allowed to overheat was I believe (gulp) because the R5 was purchased and driven mostly by women who did not at the time have much car-consciousness as they do now, nor the instrumentation to help them. So the red zone in the temp gauge (or was it just one of those 50 lights across the dash that you were expected to memorize?) was merely the suggestion to "pull over sometime". Renault should have installed a factory whistle or air raid siren on the temp gauge to warn drivers, both men and women, that an overheat on an R5 was fatal----there was NO SLACK in these cars. A similar situation probably killed of the RX7 twin turbos ( I mean the "no slack" issue).

    The inboard rear brakes on the XJ6 were real fun, too, and on some mid-engine Ferraris of the time you have to remove the engine to service it.

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  • merckxmerckx Posts: 565
    I'm not debating these problems,just suggesting that compared to the leaf-sprung Chevette or Datsun B210 the R5 had a lot going for it.
    as the Lambo or XJ6 cost so very much more,of course they offered the car entheuist a lot. But compared to the "Opel by Izuzu" or Pinto,the Renault,even if not as long lasting,was a good car,Mazda GLC(was that one really good?)notwithstanding.
  • The Renault R-5 just had a red light which was shared by several functions and was called the "broken belt light" (!). If the alternator belt fell off, it lit. If you overheated, it lit. So you really didn't know what was happening unless you stopped. Another light was "EGR", and it was hooked to a taxi-meter-like clock in the speedometer cable and went off precisely every 30K miles (wasn't hooked up to anything else !). One problem I encountered was a water pump pulley which was just pressed onto the shaft. It would fall off at speed and there you were, stranded. But after re-engineering something for twenty years, it becomes like your child and you find it hard to find fault with it. One time I ordered a new R-5 camshaft and it came from Saudi Arabia. It was almost a foot longer than the whole engine and the box had all sorts of Arabic graffiti all over it. It took 2 months to get the right one. There is a website called Katriina's Renault World (Sweden) and they are nuts about Renaults, and you can see all the latest models there. I was giving tech advice there for awhile but just got worn out. You can buy a really nice collector car in the USA for what they are buying derelict Renaults for in Europe. Oh, on the suspension - the R-5 used torsion bar suspension with rear trailing arms, a very advanced design, however I always got the sensation I was going to fall over when making a high speed turn.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Yes, they could roll their bodies.

    Torsion bar suspension was developed by Packard in 1955. It's an old design. Chrysler products used it long before REnault as well.

    I can't imagine anyone restoring an R5 or paying more the $300 for one. I'm sure if there was a lucrative market for them in Europe someone in the US would be buying them up and shipping them over in container loads. I never have heard of such a thing from all my imported buddies, and I'm sure they'd be on it if it was a real market.

    Geez, choosing between a Chevette, a Datsun B210 or an R5. It sounds like some kind of hell that car lovers are cast into.

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  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    It sounds like the 1970s, and your description is apt.
  • My comment about torsion bar suspension being advanced didn't refer to the time of use but rather the quality of the design. The first patent on torsion bar suspension was taken out in Germany in 1936 and then copied by all and sundry. There aren't very many cheap cars which feature it, to my knowledge.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Well the '55 Packard wasn't cheap that's true, but many of the 60s Chrysler products had them, and they do appear on many other inexpensive cars.

    I didn't know the idea went back as far as '36, that's interesting. Probably for the Citroen Traction Avant, right? I know Morris Minor had them in 1948, also the Citroen 2CV very early on, Porsche of course, Renault, DKW.

    Of course, torsion bars have many different designs and uses and some worked better than others.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,880
    That no matter how lousy the car, every make and model will always have a small group of diehard fans who will defend it.

    And I happen to think that's a good thing!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Oh, I have no problem at all with them loving lousy cars, even restoring lousy cars, as long as they don't start revising history and start touting them as great cars. Don't put fake ears on your mutt and start asking for AKC papers is all I require :)

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  • merckxmerckx Posts: 565
    The "Le Car" forum is back up!
  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    To replace the starter on an R5, all you had to do is loosen the engine mount and jack up the engine (carefully). Despite the information provided by the host, the R5 has been hugely popular not just in France but everywhere. The first version sold 3.5 millions.

    I would not say it didn't have some problems. The drum brakes wore out and were not replaceable; this lead to hand brake problems. Concerning the head gaskets blowing, if you replaced your coolant every two years, it was not an issue. They were hard to work on, but were much more complicated here than elsewhere, because it's hard to bring a small, carburated engine to smog compliance. The R1228 (75 to 79) had a 1300cc engine while the R1229 was beefed up with a 1400cc. That engine was used in the R5 TS, the really sporty version in Europe, but here, after the addition of the antipollution devices, it was barely adequate. I never paid $300 for a water pump, they were available at any part store. I agree with the fact it was hard to find a good mechanic. The dilemma was that you had a very cheap car, with mechanics that commended BMW prices. Many an R5 was sent prematurely to the junkyard because the ownerbalked at the price of new clutch. The later edition, BTW, had a bearing at the end of the camshaft which required a special puller to remove.

    I sold our R5 3 months ago. The engine in it at 200000 miles and the car about 160000. It no longer was safe as a daily driver after being thrown against the sidewalk while parked. In addition, the machine shop botched the intake valve angles which had made idle problematic.

    There is another thing that this discussion completely missed about the R5: they were fun cars. Not powerful, but fun.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Maybe lots of people bought one, but not too many bought another one--at least not in the USA.

    The French are very chauvinistic about their native cars, so I'm not surprised they would be popular in France.

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  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    The R5 never sold huge numbers here, between 20 and 40,000 per year. It was part of a (mostly failed) strategy of reviving the brand that led the purchase of AMC.

    Far from me to deny that most people who bought them had problems. However, in my mind, it was due more to circumstances beyond the car design itself. The fact that they were available at a low prices made it a great car to have if you knew how to maintain it. As recently as 2 1/2 years ago I drove our R5 from LA to Gallup and back.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Well, hey, a clever person can keep any car running. I've owned plenty of verified "turkeys" and had good luck with them because I kept after them. I've driven MGBs cross country and used cars like a Peugeot 504 and Audi 100LS as everyday reliable drivers. Even a Triumph Herald if you can believe it.

    I must say, though, that an R5 would keep even a very good mechanic very busy, much less a clueless owner who bought an R5 because it was "cute". Had the R5 looked like a sports car, it might have fallen into more capable hands, but as it was, most cars went to young women, most of whom were not very good do it yourselfers, to be further preyed upon by unscroupulous or talentless Frenchmen and Italians with 25 scrapped R5s in the back 40.

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  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    I got away for years with nothing but regular maintenance. A friend of mine got her in 1984 (a 1982), she sold it a couple of years ago. I doubt she could have found another car that would have given her less trouble, especially in proportion of the expenses incurred.

    I am not saying that your comments about mechanics was unjustified, although a worse case scenario was your friendly corner gas station mechanic.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    Every person I ever knew who had one had a disastrous experience with them, and I believe their experiences are probably more typical than yours or your friend's. The spectrum of ownership of every car has its extremes of positive and negative, which statistically we must disregard.

    Fact is, the car is despised in America and I don't think people are just making these stories up, so I'll have to respect public opinion in this case as the rule rather than the exception since the Nays are so overwhelmingly ahead of the Yeas.

    I don't always follow the herd regarding car opinions, by any means, but in this case I believe the R5 really was a pretty bad car for most owners and I'm going to continue to recommend that people stay away from them. (That's better for you, of course, because then you get your pick!)

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  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    I am not dissagreeing with your statement that the R5 really was a pretty bad car for most owners. What I am trying to tell you is that the car itself, which was a design breakthrough when introduced, was not necessarily to blame. There were flaws, which car does not have some, but it was also, for most of its career in the US, the cheapest car available.

    As for owning one now, getting parts is near impossible thanks to Chrysler. If you read what I wrote, we "sold" ours a few months ago to a collector.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    You'll pardon me, I'm sure, because you seem to be a very nice calm person, but the idea of
    "collecting" R5s makes me want to smile. "Collecting" in the back yard seems more suitable.

    However, all kidding aside, the R5 was fun to drive and an efficiently designed package. But under no circumstance should an automaker allow their customers to take on the role of the R&D department. If a Renault can't hold a head gasket in the US, and it seems like few of them could, then the car is surely at fault for this.

    But I agree with you, things like parts distribution and lack of service facilities are not the car's fault, even though they contribute to the car's downfall and bad reputation.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,880
    Some people will collect anything!

    Now, I firmly believe this!
  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    You are yet again postulating without knowing dear sir. I didn't write that the guy collected R5s, I just said he was a collector. He's interested in European daily drivers, not in sports cars.

    You also have the tendency to be very US-centric, he you forgive the expression. The R5 was sold pretty much worldwide, including, nearby, in Mexico. When it was introduced in the US, in 1975, the car already had several production years below its bumpers. Renault sold it here because it was its best selling model. By then R&D had long been over.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    I'm not sure I understand the distinction, sorry.

    My point was that calling himself a "collector" seemed rather pretentious in the case of such a car as the R5. It just struck me as odd since I am used to the term being used as in "collecting fine things", that is, a connoiseur of something.

    But in reality that is true, one can "collect" whatever one wishes--Hummels, leaves, marbles, manhole covers etc. Like Isell says, "one can collect anything". I stand corrected!

    The LeCar did make the "Ten Worst Cars of the Milennium" List on a popular write-in vote-- but didn't win, so that's something: the Yugo took top honors.

    http://cartalk.cars.com/About/Worst-Cars/

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  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    I have a lot of respect for Tom & Ray, and try to listen to their show when I can. What does a list established by a comedy show prove?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,880
    I guess that no matter how bad a car, someone will like them.

    Personally, I can't think of too many worse cars, but that's only my opinion.

    What could be worse than a Renault? Yugos? Lancias?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,692
    It's not Tom and RAy that "proved" anything. This was a survey.

    Anyway, I like Renaults. I even have a pair of genuine Dauphine cufflinks, which I may sell on Ebay once the Dauphine market picks up...maybe around the year 2050 or so.

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  • prlamzprlamz Posts: 78
    To me this forum is a place where knowledge can be exchanged. I have learned a lot here, and it greatly helped me buy my current car. Silly, misinformed comments do not further anything. The reason I restarted this post is because it, as well as it predecessor, was full of errors and miss informations.

    The next time you buy a used car for $400 and put over 100,000 miles on it (only one major repair: head gasket on original engine at about 145,0000), before reselling it, then please tell me about it.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 17,880
    Were meant to be tongue in cheek...however...

    You have had incredible luck with a car that wasn't known for reliability.

    My point was...and I probably did a poor job of stating it is, no matter how bad a car's reputation, some people will still like these cars and will somehow avoid the normal problems associated with them.

    Kinda like walking in a rainstorm and not getting wet.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Posts: 1,704
    Do you still remember the Alliance/Encore line? What did you make of those cars when they were new?
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