Toyota Prius

falconone

Get him a Subaru with AWD. Very dependable and not too expensive. Prius is excellent in the snow with VSC/Trac BUT only if you use good tires.

tagman

If you think to go as small as the Subaru, you would be well-advised to consider these alternatives: Go for the BETTER RELIABILITY of the Toyota RAV4 or the Honda CR-V. And, both are available in 4WD, with bigger dealer network if your son drives a bunch.

falconone

Subies like the Outback are on par with the CRV and RAV (better performance too). A college student doesn't need a huge vehicle anyway. Subarus are extremely reliable and cheaper than Tagman's suggestions.

heyjewel

Curiously, no one here in the hybrid area has suggested the Ford Escape or Mercury Mariner. Both hybrid AWD SUVs getting over 30mpg.

tagman

F1,
With due respect, Subies are OK, and I don't want to knock the Subies, but the RAV4 is simply a better vehicle with BETTER reliability. That's a FACT. Study it a little further if you need to. I don't need to disagree with everything you say just to pick an argument, but you seem to do a lot of that ever since I've indicated that I'm not as big a Prius fan as you. I've noticed you have a fairly good knowledge base, but when you argue just for the sake of an argument, you tend to dilute yourself. Get it? You DO have an agenda to promote the hybrid, and that's fine, but keep a balanced view. Stay with the facts, and you will look a lot better in the long run. BTW, what's the deal on that HUGE Prius recall?
TagMan

falconone

I believe you are the one with an agenda, but I won't go any further than that. Sure I like hybrids, but other cars as well. I suggested the Subaru as it has better winter driving dynamics than a RAV4 or a CRV. Their 4 wheel drive systems were merely an afterthought. Having owned a WRX, I feel I am qualified to comment on the Suburu's superiority over the Toyota and Honda AWD systems. My suggestions in no way were an attempt to get a rise out of you. I have better things to do with my time.

RE: Recall for the Prius. Are you referring to the software upgrade? Funny how there is nothing in the news about it anymore. I'd be more concerned with Ford plant closures, GM falling into deeper obscurity etc etc.

Hybrids... gotta love it!!!!! :shades:

tagman

My friend, YOU DO INDEED have a stated agenda that you have placed in your bio. At one point, it was to "further the hybrid . . .", etc. I have no agenda in spite of your remark. Your little signature "Hybrids...gotta love it!!!" is also your constant agenda. It's pretty obvious. Like I said, stay balanced and you'll get a lot more respect in the long run. You're a resourceful contributor, but YES, you sometimes argue just to argue, or further your agenda.

falconone

Absolutely only argue when necessary and to refute inaccurate information. I do NOT argue just to argue. As to my tag line. That's all it is.

Hybrids...gotta love em!!!!

pdubois

I know this is hardly a statistic but I had a Subaru when I lived in Quebec 25 years ago and kept it 4 years. The only repair I needed was to replace the universal joint rubber boots. I presently have a 2001 Outback H6 VDC and, so far, besides oil changes I have the brakes to replace soon. I consider the Outback a very reliable car. All my other cars have been Toyotas and Hondas and all had great reliability as well. I still have (actually I gave it to my daughter) a 1992 Camry 4 cylinders, 170,000km which works like a charm. I am going to buy a Prius because I like the concept, the low gas consumption and the specs. I am not crazy about the shape (I realy like the back and the car viewed sideways from the back but I don't like the front too much. It's still not bad enough to detract me from buying it. I will miss the 4 wheel drive, even though we only have snow very sporadicly in Vancouver BC! I looked at the Highlander Ltd H and the Lexus 400H but they are way too expensive and the real world city driving mileage (in the 20s) is not much different from my Outback right now!

midnightcowboy

Hey Falconone,

Did you ever get your Prius . I know for awhile you were counting down the weeks and then some brake issue.

Here is my dilemma. About a month ago I put my name in for a 2006 Prius package #6 for MSRP. Well I got a call today I can have it in two(2) weeks if I want it. Actually three(3) weeks would be better pushing is past January 1. Okay the cost is :

Base Price $21,725
HK Package #6 3,830
Destination Charge 580
=======
Total $26,135

Now the dilemma a Civic Si is $20,540 The difference is $5,595 big $$$$ difference

Now assume you can get a tax credit of $3,000 the difference is only $2,595.

Let's see Civic Si 23/32 est=26
Let's see Prius 60/51 est=52

If I drive 15,000 miles a year and gas is $2.50 per gallon

Civic Si gas cost = $1,442
Prius gas cost = $ 721

Difference per year = $ 721

Number of years of suffering before payout+

$2,595/$721 = 3.6 years

OKAY OKAY this is just an estimate, yes maybe the Prius will get better than 52, maybe the insurance on the Civic Si will be higher and yes the Civic Si reqquires premium.

But think the Civic Si has performance, handling and a 6-speed manual shift and comes in Rallye Red.

Wait, Falconone, hold on don't answer. I think I have self-discovered it

Shift'n through 6 speeds,

MidCow

falconone

I was considering the IS, but the dealers aren't dealing. I was reading R & T last night and saw the Mazdaspeed 6 with 274 HP!! Whew!!!! Came back to my senses. Picking up Mr. Prius 2nd Saturday in January!!

tagman

MidCow,
I 've been known to challenge the Prius from time to time. I've given it great credit where it's due, and I've been willing to point out it's weaknesses. The Prius forum can sometimes be a risky place to be critical of the Prius, of course, and I've had to stand my ground on occassion. But I read your analysis of your decision process and I just wanted to say CONGRATULATIONS to you! While you would have enjoyed the Prius, you'll absolutely enjoy the '06 Motor Trend Car of The Year. And, it's a GREAT-LOOKING car for the money, especially in red!
Good Luck with it.
TagMan

tagman

interesting perspective:
Governments Wonder Whether Hybrid Cars Are Worth It

by Patrick Walters
Associated Press

. . . Officials in various cities estimate that choosing a hybrid vehicle costs an extra $3,000 to $8,000, depending on the model and which gasoline-only model would have been bought in its place.

Officials in Ann Arbor, Mich., decided not to add hybrids to their fleet after determining the costs would outweigh the benefits. Ann Arbor has other types of alternate-fuel vehicles, but found that hybrids just weren't cost-effective, said David Konkle, the city's energy coordinator.

Konkle estimated the hybrids would save $300 to $500 a year each in gas, making it impossible to make up the difference in purchase price, which he said was $8,000. . . .

kdhspyder

see my post #4108 in Hybrids in the News forum.

tagman

I read your post. Not all the Prius posts are as balanced as yours. Well done. You are realistic that the Prius will NOT save $$$$ for the reasons so many people think. The main consideration is really whether or not the Prius is a value, based upon it's features as a vehicle. A loaded Prius is within a few dollars of $30,000 for '06! There are some other AMAZING cars out there for that kind of money! Sure the Prius is amazing to some, but there are definately OTHERS to consider, especially when you get HONEST about the premium price tag of the hybrid and how it can actually COST MORE to operate a hybrid than its gas counterpart!
I am impressed with your honesty.

kdhspyder

Tks..

Oh and in the first 1000 mi I am getting about 50% better FE than my last 2 Camry's. 45-46mpg vs 30-33 mpg driving 150 mi/day at 57-63 mph. I'm keeping detailed records by week and weather. Keep ya posted.

pdubois

I have debated for a long time whether or not I should buy a hybrid. My driving is 90% city driving if not more. I do a lot of those short trips so it adds-up. Most of the "fuel efficient" cars I have seen so far do a great job on the highway. My own Sunbaru Outback gets very good mileage on the highway and is basically what the EPA estimates. However, in short city driving trips I only get 12mpg (instead of the 21mpg EPA). So, for me only a hybrid or a diesel gives me decent fuel economy in city driving unless I go for a tiny car with no side airbags etc... like the Yaris. Diesel is not an option right now as the new low sulfur gas is coming and I don't want to be forced to add additives next year to keep my engine runing safely. I am also concerned about the amount of polution from the diesel engine...

I looked at the Civic and the Accura CSX (only available in Canada) but I am too tall for the car and fuel economy is OK for city driving but not exceptional... I know the loaded Prius costs too much but it seems a good compromise for what I want in comfort and luxury and, on top of that, it has great city driving mileage. My son has been trying to convince me not to buy a hybrid but so far has not offered me any other option that would fit what I am looking for...

day9

just want to point out that loaded car cost much more than the base for almost every car. :shades:

falconone

I'll be getting a loaded Prius (no leather) for 25k (net) because of the nice fat juicy tax credit c/o good 'ol Uncle Sam. Considering all the goodies the Prius has and I'll be getting close to 50 MPG I am a happy camper. If the Prius were not available, I'd end up getting something more expensive. I did briefly consider the Lexus IS but the back seat is too small and dealers aren't dealing. Granted it's more luxurious, but I am happy with my decision. Prius.... gotta love it!!!!

backy

How about a used hybrid, say a Prius or HCH? You should be able to buy one of those for about what a new Civic or Acura CSX costs.

kdhspyder

Just so that you are not disappointed if you do opt for a hybrid be aware that the EPA city numbers are artificial due to their false assumptions about what city driving is.

In their world city driving is crusing/crawling at a constant speed like 50 km/h with little or no stop lights/signs. If you can replicate these conditions on lengthy driving periods such as 30 min at a time then you might very well get 60 mpg (3.92 l/100 km ?)

For short in city trips of 10 km or less the vehicle doesnt really have a chance to warm up... like every other ICE vehicle.... you will may only get ~35 mpg ( 2.29 l/100 km ).

OTOH 35 mpg is better than 12 mpg so you would definitely save in this case.

JBaumgart

"How about a used hybrid, say a Prius or HCH? You should be able to buy one of those for about what a new Civic or Acura CSX costs."

You're right - you SHOULD be able to buy them for that, but unfortunately the market price for a late model, lightly used one is nearly the same as new. Right now they are strictly for those who are so desperate to buy a hybrid that they aren't willing to wait in line for a new one but are willing to pay about the same price.

tagman

I read a couple of posts that mentioned NOT buying a particular car because the "dealers weren't dealing". If that is a truthful fundamental reason to not buy a car, I must ask then, are the dealers dealing on the Prius? It was my impression that they were generally holding to full MSRP.

kdhspyder

It was my impression that they were generally holding to full MSRP.

Yes you are correct... with a few exceptions. I understand that certain dealerships are charging above sticker in certain regaions but I think it's isolated. Don't pay it.

If you happen to stumble on the perfect situation you might be able to get a discount on a new one if your timing is right and you are flexible.

backy

I am wondering whether there will be deals to be had before Jan. 1, when the big tax break kicks in.

kdhspyder

Trick for the future. If you happen to want a 'hot' vehicle like the Prius try buying it on the 15th or last day of the month when the dealership has to report ( RDR ) its sales. It's the last sales opportunity before the next allocation comes out and every store has a 'turn and earn' burden.

If a store gets 4 Prius', but sells only two, they can only replace the two that they sold. If however they can sell the last two before the reporting date then they can get 4 again or maybe even 5. It's how Toyota stores grow.

Even on a hot vehicle a store may be flexible on price in order to report another sale and thereby earn an additonal new vehicle on the next allocation. But You the consumer has to be flexible as well in taking the precise vehicle that they have in inventory; model package and color.

falconone

I was lucky to pay $500 under MSRP. I am quite happy with that price considering I am getting such a high tech automobile. I mean..where else can you get a car with all those features for 25k net after my tax credit. Gotta love it!!! Will take delivery 2nd Saturday in January. Will post my impressions shortly after.

tagman

May I ask what was the price of the vehicle itself, before and tax incentives, and did that price include navigation and leather interior?

falconone

Package sans leather. One below the top. However, I may have a change of heart. Just read C & D and read the writeup on the new RAV4 with the 3.5 ltr V6. I can have AWD, 0-60 6.3 and mid size SUV versatility. Mileage isn't that bad (high 20's). Price... < 30k. Still on the fence. :confuse: :sick:

tagman

I get the impression that this decision is a difficult one for you, or somehow you are anguishing a little. There is no perfect choice. I recently mentioned the RAV4 to another poster, and I think you recommended the Subie. Would the Subie be a good choice for you, perhaps? I imagine your circumstances are different, however. I still believe the RAV4 to be an excellent choice. An associate of mine bought one earlier in the year and absolutely LOVES it, being so incredibly versatile and having top-notch reliability. In fact, the RAV4 has the TOP spot in CR's reliability rating, with the Honda CR-V a very close second. Dealer's WILL deal on a RAV4 as well, and I imagine you could get a GREAT vehicle there for a great value. Certainly the Prius would be fine for you, since you seem to appreciate its virtues, but I will openly admit that if I had to choose between THOSE two vehicles, I would honestly seriously consider that RAV4. But, if you did buy the RAV4, would you always be feeling that you should have gotten the Prius all along? Can you still feel comfortable to admire and respect it without actually having to OWN it? Anyway, my friend, it is not always easy to make a choice. Maybe a little less intellectual approach and a bit more F-U-N perspective would help? Good luck. I mean it sincerely. (There's always a future of fun on one of the SUV forums, too!)

ahujasu

I too saw the new V6 RAV 4 in the latest C&D. Awesome vehicle and as they said at the end of the article that vehicle may answer the question...If I could only have one car... I am considering it as well, but the Prius comes first as the commute car and the minivan may go as a trade on a new RAV 4.

I expect the Prius in January in time for the big tax credit and early enough to get the carpool stickers in CA.

tagman

If the vast majority of driving is a lengthy (not a short one) commute then it makes sense to place the priority on that type of driving. If, however, there is a BLEND of driving requirements, then the priorities for the vehicle change considerably. Some people will dedicate a vehicle as the "commuter car". Most, however, have many uses for their vehicles and will look at the versatility of that vehicle to fulfill MOST of their driving requirements, not just one. Also, sounds like you will have more than one vehicle. Some folks like to have just one vehicle that is extremely versatile. The RAV4 could EASILY come close to a "one vehicle does all" type of vehicle.

falconone

I am going to take the RAV for a test drive once they are in dealer's hands. You probably are correct regarding the ability to deal. Initially there may be some resistance from the dealers upon the launch. I will miss:

Smart start/entry
Bluetooth
NAV

Granted I don't have them now, but I like the built in NAV feature the best, I suppose I can go aftermarket. I guess it now depends on my test drive. I'll keep you posted!

P.S. Subie would have been a contender, but NO stability and NO V6. The V6 performance (in the new RAV) is better than the Mercedes C320 I used to own!

P.P.S. Can't beat that Toyota reliability. Even VW wants to be like Toyota! Have you seen the new butts on the Jetta and the Passat. If you can't beat 'em join 'em.

tagman

If you like NAV, I am compelled to tell you that I have two different built-in NAV systems and one Magellan "road mate". There are other after market nav units, and the cell phone folks are releasing nav on your cell phone! So, the point I want share with you is that IF (big on the "IF") you expect to use NAV often, the built-in nav is very nice! If nav isn't a big consideration, then there is no concern.

I am very interested in the follow up on this, and I am very impressed with your open-mindedness. You may be taking delivery of that Prius after all, but the RAV4 is a GREAT choice if you don't.

falconone

...and what are you driving now??

backy

Before you decide on a SUV vs. the Prius, figure out how much you really need the size and capabilities of a SUV. When I made that decision for myself nearly two years ago, I figured that I needed that kind of capacity maybe 2-3 times a year. So I could rent a larger vehicle in those few cases. So I decided to get a Prius-sized vehicle, but ultimately decided to save $9000 up front and get a different 5-door hatchback instead of a Prius.

falconone

I probably can get by with the Prius, but the decent gas mileage and excellent performance of the new RAV4 are compelling to say the least. I can also do quite well with the new $12,000 Hyundai Accent. I just have to live with the car, so I have to make the right choice. We'll see.

tagman

F1,
I'm well known among my friends and associates for going through cars like sneakers. It's ridiculous. My current views and past vehicles are quite different at times. Part of the equation is that I have a wife and two kids, and lead a somewhat unusual lifestyle in California. I have lived in Hawaii and have vacation property. The reason I say all this is that my driving habits have not been typical for almost anyone I know.

I recently completely changed out some of my vehicles. Specifically, I owned an "original" (I was #5 on the original list) '97 Boxster until last year when I dumped it and my E-class Mercedes in order to finish a large project on my home. I don't remember the model year of the Mercedes, but it was recent with the V8. I received a Mini Cooper S (loaded with nav and EVERY option) as a birthday present two years ago, but it was too small for my active family, but tons of fun for the while I had it. BTW, too many little repairs on that car. It got GREAT mileage. I just traded a Denali in for an '06 Pilot loaded with leather, NAV, 4WD, satellite radio, basically everything they could put on it (needed the eight seats and room. My kids are into surfing now, among all the other more typical sports, and interior room is critical) I got it for cost, as I know the dealer. The '06 Pilot is awesome so far. I had previously needed that gas-hog Denali to tow a MasterCraft ski boat around the country, and it went through THREE front differentials. Fortunately, I had the extended warranty. I buy the extended warranty on EVERY vehicle. I even own an old full-size Bronco that I keep at my vacation property, and it is exactly like OJ's Bronco that was on TV when he was in that crazy car chase. I got a lot of teasing that year. I also own an '03 Limited Edition Jeep Rubicon maxxed out for off-road fun. The wife and kids won't let me sell it, even though I always threaten to. They say it's too much fun, especially with the top off. It drives like a pogo stick, however. I also own an '05 Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas, with the rear multimedia (DVD and TV built-into the headrests). It's a great ride and you can be SURE I have as much warranty on it as I could buy, just in case. Risky, but gorgeous. Of course it has Nav w/ voice-command, and it is good, but the '06 Pilot NAV w/ voice-command is incredible, and I go on record to say it is the BEST NAV of ANY car at any price I have ever seen.

I've owned Ferrari in the past, and MANY other cool and crazy cars. I told you this would not be typical by any means. I've driven most EVERY car, go to the car shows, personally know dealers, and read about cars all the time. Bottom line is, I LOVE cars. If it weren't for the wife and kids, I'd have more of them. But I'm finally getting more realistic (maybe?), and the '06 Pilot is a smart family vehicle at this point. The Rubicon? Nothing wrong with fun for the kids, but I don't love it that much. I'm always threatening to get something else, but I don't know right now. The Jag? Well, I'll keep it around until it stabs me in the back too many times. I probably should take it easy for a while, don't you think?

Does THAT answer your question! Ask me again in the not-too-distant-future and you'll get a different description of different cars, probably. I do like the '07 S-Class, but I'd have to trade-in the Jag. See? I should just get a Prius, and be done with it all.
TagMan

falconone

WOW... Sorta like me. I've had quite a few cars in these past few years as well. Since you do frequent this particular thread your interest in the Prius intrigues me. Your last sentence says it all However, I know the feeling when it's difficult to make a decision. I am going to take a nice extended test drive in the RAV V6 once my dealer has one to test. This dealer lets me take the car for the weekend, so it should be interesting.

tagman

F1,
We have more in common then than we would have originally thought. The Prius, of course, interested me as it does you. Very different. I was focused on this forum and went back and read many of the threads. I checked the car out and found some areas of disappointment, as I have expressed here. I occassionally sparked a discussion to understand the various viewpoints. I recongnize that at the peak of "high gas prices" people were more likely to want to empower themselves, even at the expense of being rational or logical about the Prius.
You appear to really be intrigued by the Prius, however, and I sure hope that if you were to get that RAV4, you can be settled about it. You wouldn't want the Prius to keep "itching" at you. There is no perfect decision with cars, as you and I know very well.
I hope your RAV4 test goes well and settles the whole thing for you in a DEFINATIVE manner.
Take care,
TagMan

falconone

Thanks... been doing a great deal of research and the journalists seem to all be in agreement regarding the next gen RAV4. I'm only interested in the V6. I'll miss some of the goodies the Prius has, but before I do anything, the test drive will be important. I am going to give it a good workout. I will also go 65 or so on the highway and see the mileage results. Hopefully it has an internal computer, otherwise I'll have to fill up to the click and do it manually. If I don't get low to mid 20's I may be a little upset. That's what I'm getting now, but I'll have much more comfort and versatility. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted. And yes... I'll continue to contribute here as I am still a fan of the HSD technology. Toyota REALLY knows how to build cars.

midnightcowboy

Falconone,

I still think you need to go for the Upgraded Prius. After all it is still really a Toyota , even though it is called a Lexus.

If you are looking for the RAV4 I think you need the Legacy GT wagon or the WRX wagon.

Prius is slow and has bad handling and doesn't have a manual shift. As I have said before give me a Prius GT with a 6-speed maual shift, HSD2 with 45/40 and I will be happy and buy one. P,S, Toyota so would a couple of thousand or so other people.

Cheers,

MidCow

falconone

Midcow:

Already owned a WRX. Subies are nice cars, but not as solid as a Toyota. It's hard to pass up AWD, 270hp, Sub 7 sec 0-60 , SUV versatility, under 30 grand. Have a call to my salesman, so he knows what the deal is.

revka

Join other Prius enthusiasts in Edmunds.com Toyota Prius Owners Club!

tagman

It's hard to pass up AWD, 270hp, Sub 7 sec 0-60 , SUV versatility, under 30 grand.

well said.

falconone

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051221/law075.html?.v=37

Gee... I hope they have room to display all the awards this car has won!!!

Gotta love it!!

Kirstie_H

A reporter from a large daily newspaper would like to speak to current hybrid vehicle owners. If you would to speak with the media, please respond to ctalati@edmunds.com with your daytime contact info., city/state of residence and how long you&#146;ve had the car no later than January 3, 2006.

midnightcowboy

Have a dealer wanting to sell me for $500 under MSRP for 2006. A month ago he wanted $2,000 over. H'm Has the latent demand finally been satisfied or is this just the year end numbers game knowing that NO ONE will buy until January 1, 2006 becuase of the $3,100 tax credit.

It is really funny, all these snotty un customer-oriented salesman are begging, yes begging for sales.

Ha! HA! You hybrid suckers !

Your Choice,

MidCow

P.S.- I wonder how those who paided $2,500 over MSRP feel now

donzi81

I read an article in a LA newspaper that dealers were asked by their customers to hold off their purchase until next week. I guess next week they'll be calling us suckers! They are getting a nice deal. I am wondering if I bought a TDI if I would qualify for some tax benefit. They did mention something about diesels.

jrct9454

....have to meet the stringent 50-state emissions standards. To my knowledge, none sold in this country right now can do that, because of our dirty diesel fuel. When nationwide low-sulfur diesel beccomes available [late next year], then things could change. VW is the only one selling diesels in any numbers, and their current engine doesn't make the cut; MB has already said its current 3.2 CDI doesn't, either. All will have new-technology engines available for the 2007 model year - until then, the tax credit is basically a hybrid-only game.