Midsize Sedans 2.0

elroy5

This is repair number three in four years(yet none have been deemed my fault!).

Haha, I know what you mean. My old BRIGHT RED TRUCK, seemed to be invisible to other motorists, because they were constantly pulling out in front of, or running into the side of it. :confuse:

bhmr59

I haven't seen bumper covers "refinished" before (which mean repainted). Any gouges will remain visible, they'll just be painted over. Be careful on the hood as well, since you don't want nice paint on a deformed hood.

Having said that, as long as the shop will 100% guarantee the work, don't worry about it. You want the car fixed properly whether the cost is $1200 or $2,000 (but you don't want the car totaled.)

thegraduate

Nothing is actually dented other than the quarter panel, and I'm getting a new one of those. The shop has a good reputation in the community, so I'd be inclined to believe I won't have too many problems with them (knocking on wood as I type).

Everything still aligned properly. He hit me "just right" in that only one panel of the car was affected. He was higher than the bumper of my car, and lower than the hood. Just perfectly even with my parking light (as you can see).

zzzoom6

For some, 5 year reliability may be a good test. However, my personal test is 10+ years under normal driving conditions.

I'd have to agree that expecting 5+ years of reliable service is what I would expect when buying a new car, but I can't see where I could make the assumption that since I, or someone else I knew, had a reliable 10 year old car that the same make and/or model would necessarily be just as reliable. First, I don't know of any 10 year reliability date to use so coming up with decent data to draw any conclusions from would be difficult.

Second, every new model with substantial changes from previous generations usually will have unique strengths and weaknesses that are sometimes impossible to forsee until lots of time goes by. Just because a ten year old ford had a good 3 speed automatic tranny, has nothing to do with whether the current gen 6 speed automatic will be as good.

Third, companies change. Mercedes used to make very solid cars. While they seem to be improving from the recent woes lately, they were having some quality probs for several years. And Hyundai... changes as extreme as what they have been able to do in just a few years (granted, drawing a firm conclusion may still be a tiny bit premature), just goes to show how quickly a company can improve.

While I understand what you're saying...some manufacturers have a long track record of consistently making automobiles that rank high for reliability over a 5 year period (which I think is the longest period for which reliability is tracked by major organizations - plz correct me if I'm wrong here). But the trend over the last 10 years has been one of increasing quality by the vast majority of manufacturers to the point where the difference is often less than a single problem over a five year period.

This is the great thing about buying a car now... for the most part, a person can focus on things like ride quality, funtionality, style, or whatever that is important to them without getting overly obsessed with manufacturing quality. Instead of making just a "safe" choice and compromising on what they really want, buyers of midsize sedans can now safely make a choice that better reflects their desires and personality. I'm not saying don't do your research, but at the same time, don't put too much weight in colored circles without knowing exactly what those colored cirles mean and the numbers they actually represent.

targettuning

"I'm anxious to see how the Sonata ages with say, 85,000 miles on it. If this new generation car passes that long term test, I think you'll see more and more Sonatas on the road."

"That's what will sell me at least. Car's just coming out (Sonata, Fusion) and getting these great initial reviews, when everybody knows its what happens in years 5+ that define the car. Camcords have passed that test."

Based on our family & co-workers experiences with Hyundai they will be running along just fine @ 85K miles and many more. We own a 2000 Elantra which my son drives to work (100 mile round trip daily). It currently has 158,000 miles and the total repairs aside from routine items e.g. brake pads/rotors..tires...timing belt replacement was a new alternator and battery about 10,000 miles ago and a new flex joint in the exhaust system, which is original otherwise. Three co-workers have Hyundai products and I keep abreast of their experiences due to my own interest in the company and its products. Anyhow, there are two Santa Fe's and one newer Elantra in that group. Both Santa Fe's have over 100,000 miles (one 4 cylinder and one 2.7 V-6)and as far as I have been told both are trouble free.The 2004 Elantra goes about 80 miles a day round trip and currently has over 60,000 miles. It had a faulty digital instrument when new and Hyundai replaced the instrument cluster and aside from tires that's it.
So, I believe the Sonata will be just fine with miles and time.

shepsan1

I ask for recommendations . . .

Over the years, I have owned American, European and Japanese automobiles. Today, because of my age, I am looking to buy what is most assuredly my final car. I want it to be a American brand mid-size sedan.

This is my criteria; I want the car to be luxurious and comfortable, have excellent performance, provide creature comfort technology such as bluetooth and rear camera and lastly, be pleasing to the eye.

I have these things in my present Infiniti M45.

Is there any American automobile that meets my criteria?

Your recommendations are solicited.

Thank you.

louiswei

Let's see...

Since this might be your final car it tells me that you are definitely over 60, if not 70 or even older.

You want excellent performance and gadgets such as bluetooth and backup camera.

You do care about how the car looks

(Wow, I wish when I hit your age I can still have this kind of passion for cars)

Here's my verdict:

You probably won't find any vehicle that fits your "excellent performance" criteria among this group of cars. Subaru Legacy and Mazda6 are the closest you'll get but they are just above average performers and neither are American. My recommendation is to check out the upcoming 2008 CTS, which looks very promising and should be reasonably priced (expect to pay 3-series+ price for a 5-series type of car). Another alternative is the refreshed 2008 STS. The cosmetic changes have made the exterior more aggressive and interior more pleasant to look at. Oh, and don't forget Caddy dropped the new 3.6L V6 with 300HP to both the CTS and STS.

captain2

a dumb question - why would you possibly even want to get out of your M45? One of the finest sedans out there. It can't be that old.
The logical suggestion amoong the American branded is the STS (or CTS) if you've grown accustomed to the bling, Caddy styling is definitely love it or leave it, but there is also the Lincoln MKZ with a better engine in it than the Fulan/6. Don't think any of the three will have the dynamic qualities of your M, however and also don't believe that the FE savings would amount to much if you put a pencil to it. How much you want for your M? Never mind probably couldn't afford it anyway - the Ms supposed to have great resale values.

baggs32

Subaru Legacy and Mazda6 are the closest you'll get but they are just above average performers and neither are American.

The Mazda6 may very well be more American than the Fusion and any other car compared in this thread though. It is built in Detroit next to the Mustang and the company who's badge is on the grille is controlled by FMC.

A MAZDASPEED6 would probably better suit his needs but it is built in Japan making it a lot less American.

shepsan1

Responding to a number of questions, my Infiniti M45 is the best car I have ever owned. But, it is time to trade it in.

I am closer to eighty than seventy years of age and am an American who served seven years in the Navy during my youth.

At one time, our country produced every item that I purchased. Not today, It seems that today almost everything I buy is made somewhere other than America. My watch is foreign made, my car is foreign made, my tv is foreign made, even most of my clothing is foreign made. As I said, almost everything I own comes from somewhere else.

I would like that my last large and significent purchase be an American automobile so that my final splurge of cash pays the salaries of Americans.

Many readers may not understand or agree with my thinking, but I have earned the right to think this way and feel very strongly about it.

Kirstie_H

I don't think you'll get much of an argument about your wish to buy American - it's only when one suggests that their choice is correct for everyone that the hostility heats up.

You know what you want to do, so I'm hopeful that we can help you find a vehicle that fits your criteria! Have you looked at the Buick LaCrosse?

lilengineerboy

I would like that my last large and significent purchase be an American automobile so that my final splurge of cash pays the salaries of Americans.

GM has more vehicles that are designed and built in the US, while Ford has cars designed here and built elsewhere. An M45 is a pretty big ride, were you thinking along the lines of the Caddy SLS/STS or CTS? Lincoln MKZ? Mercury Motego?

I really don't know how to classify Chrysler, but the 300C seemed to make a big splash when it came out, and the hemi V8 responds well to a boot.

imidazol97

I'd suggest a LaCrosse with the 3.8 or optional 3.6 L motor and the Lucerne with 3.8 or Northstar. Drive each one to see which you like.

mz6greyghost

There are a few choices. The LaCrosse mentioned is a possibility, but you may want to check out the Buick Lucerne as well. The Northstar V8 version is powerful, yet it's also big and comfortable.

For Chrysler (btw, are they now considered American again?), check out the 300C, but stay away from the lesser versions of the 300.

As for Ford, the '08 Taurus (Five-Hundred) or '08 Sable (Montego) with the new 3.5L may be up your alley. I'm not sure if they're out yet, but I did see an '08 Taurus with non-dealer plates parked at an apartment complex this past weekend, so they may be slowly trickling into dealers.

Hope this helps.

backy

Yes, the '08 Taurus is out, I saw them advertised this past weekend in my local paper. Funny thing is, I like the front end on the Five Hundred better.

mz6greyghost

Yes, the '08 Taurus is out, I saw them advertised this past weekend in my local paper. Funny thing is, I like the front end on the Five Hundred better.

Not me. I thought the Five Hundred styling was too much like everything else out there. I like the new front end of the Taurus, and it fits well with (and here's my on-topic reference ) the Fusion.

Let's hope that Ford markets it well, especially with the 3.5L.

dudleyr

I would say the Lucerne is a better fit than the Lacrosse. More room and more features, also quite nice looking. A coworker has the Lucerne with the northstar V-8. It is fast and smooth. It even has cooled seats - you can feel it blowing air on you.

The Saturn Aura is also quite nice, not sure about all the features.

backy

The chrome bars look better on the Fusion to me (although I'm still not crazy about them). On the Taurus, I think they make it look like a chromed Tempo.

mz6greyghost

The Saturn Aura is also quite nice, not sure about all the features.

Aahh, I completely forgot about the Aura. I'd avoid the XE and go straight to the XR.

baggs32

When are you looking to buy your next car? Weeks, months, a year?

If you can wait a little while the Lincoln MKS will be available. It is slated to be assembled in Chicago, starting Feb. of '08, with the Taurus and Taurus X as they all share the same platform.

bv050506

You currently have a very nice car. My guess is you'll end up with a Cadillac mostly because it is sexy and can duplicate the features you have with the M45. The Buick Lucerne with the Northstar V-8 and dual pipes is also a nice big car, perhaps larger than you'd like. When it's all said and done, you'll ask yourself "why'd I ever get rid of the "M". Good luck!

mz6greyghost

When it's all said and done, you'll ask yourself "why'd I ever get rid of the "M".

Not if it was the first-gen M45, a car that wasn't exactly setting sales records (or any other records, for that matter).

akirby

But it sure made nice taxicabs (in Japan).

captain2

a statement out of ignorance? Taxi cabs? The Infiniti M generally rated higher in V6 or V8 forms than the corresponding German sedans and for less money not to mention Cadillacs etc. You need to drive one before you liken it to a taxicab!

captain2

exactly. My Avalon apparently 92% American made parts and 100% American labor. Don't believe there is another American branded car that can say that.

akirby

Ignorance? I think not. It's a well known fact that the Japanese version of the ORIGINAL M45 was used extensively as taxicabs in Japan.

From a 2004 article:
Considering that the current iteration of the M45 has been on sale for in Japan for years, often serving duty in taxi fleets, it’s not hard to see why the M45 has been a flop.

http://www.automotivearticles.com/123/Infiniti_M45_Europe_Has_a_New_Challenger.shtml

captain2

I think the man specifically said he wanted to put as much money as he could into "American salaries" on a specific car purchase, didn't he? Would guess, the economic impact of the Fusion is far greater in Mexico than it is in Michigan. At least your 6 is still built here from mostly American made parts.

Our erstwhile host, BTW, will NOT want us going here - it is apparently OK to talk about buyer motivations and obviously the cars themselves but it is NOT OK to talk about this particular motivation for some reason :confuse:

captain2

while it is not clear whether the M in question is a 2005 or later, this is the car I was talking about - the first version unremarkable (and also smaller) as you suggest. The 2005+ one damn near revolutionary and certainly the best 'taxicab' known to mankind!

Kirstie_H

Folks, the original poster didn't seem to be looking to get into a debate about what makes a car "American," but if he wants to, he can find a lot of those moved posts over at Buying American Cars - What Does It Mean?

akirby

It was clear that the post I was replying to was a picture of the 1st gen M45. Had nothing to do with the original question.

kdshapiro

Actually the 5 series was and still is the benchmark of the Luxury Sedans category.

captain2

the latest crop of BMWs and MBs have rated relatively poorly recently (for them) primarily because of egronomic issues.
Considering the 550 a benchmark, however, is probably correct in as far as it is what any mfgr. of cars this type strive to match or beat - whether it really still is, probably a matter of opinion. I do have some 'gadget freak' friends that actually LIKE 'i-drive'.

andres3

Like the mechanic says, "pay me a little now, or a lot later".

Serveral of you have given great example of how ATROCIOUSLY negligent and careless maintenance can ruin a vehicle.'

However, getting my transmission fluid changed at 15K intervals (or 30K intervals in the Honda) didn't help either faulty automatic transmission. In fact, it probably hurt, as one died at 60 or so thousand miles, when it was due for it's 3rd or 4th change, and the Honda tranny started to fail at 42K, 12K after the first auto tranny fluid change. A lot of problems are from design, engineering, and build quality issues, not maintenance. I mean, what causes head gaskets to go at 40K miles? That's "virtually brand new" condition on a Honda.

The companies that tell you "tough luck" are the one's I like to say "tough luck" to when they are fired or laid off due to downsizing.

andres3

If it was out of warranty then they had no reason to. Honda's tranny failures were of a different nature and happened early on in the vehicles life in a lot of cases which prompted them to extend the warranty. That's why your Honda transmission was replaced.

Dodge's trannies didn't last significantly longer than Honda's transmissions, I can assure you of that! My Honda was most definitely out of warranty, having 42,000 miles before problems surfaced. It was a 3 year 36K powertrain warranty back then. They stepped right up to fix it. Why? Embarrassment, character, integrity, honesty, sense of fairness, and wanting me to remain a customer; forward thinking!

Dodge's auto tranny problems were early failures, and happened in numerous cases, same thing as Honda. Just a different response.

Honda: we'll fix it, we'll extend warranties, we'll cover you.

Dodge: parts just break down, cars just break down, tough luck!

jiamin

My co-worker told me that he heard in Germany lots of taxi use MB cars. They are so unreliable that Taxi drivers refused to use MB because drivers would lose business if the car often quits...

elroy5

However, getting my transmission fluid changed at 15K intervals (or 30K intervals in the Honda) didn't help either faulty automatic transmission. In fact, it probably hurt,

Unless the transmission was power flushed, I don't think it can "hurt" it.

A lot of problems are from design, engineering, and build quality issues, not maintenance.

I agree that some failures will happen, no matter what you do. I don't want to add "lack of maintenance" to the reasons why it could fail though.

captain2

the other place I saw a whole lot of MB cabs - Hong Kong. Don't know if they've changed because of reliability issues, but you might think they would do better with those plain vanilla antiquated Crown Vics. In the far east cab driving would be a job that one aspires to!

jd10013

Your right, plenty of cars fail because of bad design, engineering and build quality. But usually, those types of problems will show up well before the warranty expires. But at any rate, it does happen. My only point is that newer care, if properly maintained, will last damn near forever. as other people have said, the difference between the best cars, and the worst; has narrowed significantly.

I mean, what causes head gaskets to go at 40K miles? That's "virtually brand new" condition on a Honda.

an engine running hot will often times damage the head gasket.

andres3

an engine running hot will often times damage the head gasket.

But if the reason the engine was running hot was because it was low on coolant because the head gasket was leaking coolant? What then... chicken and the egg?

neteng101

BMW should get Apple to redo iDrive for them... the rest of the industry will be in huge trouble then.

baggs32

Dodge's auto tranny problems were early failures, and happened in numerous cases, same thing as Honda. Just a different response.

Honda: we'll fix it, we'll extend warranties, we'll cover you.

Dodge: parts just break down, cars just break down, tough luck!


I'm pretty sure Honda's transmission failures were being looked into by the NHTSA though, simply because of the nature of the failures. One thing Honda seems to do well is avoid recalls by taking action before a recall is issued if they can. I think these transmission issues were a perfect example of that.

IIRC the Honda failures in the Accord and other models induced wheel lock regardless of where you were or what speed you were travelling at. That's not so safe if you're on the highway. :surprise: If the NHTSA deemed the vehicles safe enough that Honda could get away with an extended warranty rather than a recall then I have no problem with that. Just don't believe that Honda or any other company is out to help you out. They had their best interest in mind, with the tranny situation and all the others as well, as a profitable business and you can take that to the bank.

I knew three other '97 or '98 Civic owners who bought theirs shortly after we bought our '96 and all of them had problems with the driver's side window and the exhaust system. Each part failed like clockwork. It was rather interesting to be able to predict their problems and see them just shrug them off like I was crazy. They were known issues to all forum regulars so why didn't Honda step up there? Do they sell so many Accords that they didn't care which mid-sized vehicle we stepped up to?

thegraduate

IIRC the Honda failures in the Accord and other models induced wheel lock regardless of where you were or what speed you were travelling at.

Not sure about that. I had always heard the trannies defaulted to second gear.

zzzoom6

some spy shots of the Accord interior

zzzoom6

is that a 6 speed? drool...

neteng101

Not sure about that. I had always heard the trannies defaulted to second gear.

Drops to 2nd gear or total disengagement (ie. no more power, but no wheel lock either).

http://cl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98260

I had something similar happened on my old Ford Taurus - that's why I got rid of it... not sure if it was transmission or something with the engine/fuel delivery, but it wasn't totally terminal in my case. Just total loss of power when accelerating while at speed (it would happen at times, and never from a stop), so like power dips to zero, and in 2-3 seconds it comes back, so it was disconcerting and rather dangerous (since you're typically accelerating when you need to).

kdshapiro

OK. I know this is off-topic but have you seen what edmunds said about the 535? If you read their commentary, they did not rate it poorly, in fact quite the opposite. And if you are referring to anything else, the 5 series has been eating up the competition in sales. So whatever has been said about the 5 series, the hapless consumers don't give a hoot.

I happen to like i-drive. I learned to navigate it in about 15 seconds doing 50 mph. :shades

baggs32

Drops to 2nd gear or total disengagement (ie. no more power, but no wheel lock either).

I may have been going by the recall notice below but it was a long time ago that I researched this issue. I recall stories on Accord threads of wheels locking up on the highway as well but we have to take those with a grain of salt of course.

Recalls Summary

Make / Models : Model/Build Years:
ACURA / 3.2CL 2001-2003

ACURA / 3.2TL 2000-2004

ACURA / MDX 2001-2002

HONDA / ACCORD 2003-2004

HONDA / ODYSSEY 2002-2004

HONDA / PILOT 2003-2004

Recall Number: 04V176000
Summary:
ON SOME MINI VANS, SPORT UTILITY AND PASSENGER VEHICLES, CERTAIN OPERATING CONDITIONS CAN RESULT IN HEAT BUILD-UP BETWEEN THE COUNTERSHAFT AND SECONDARY SHAFT SECOND GEARS IN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, EVENTUALLY LEADING TO GEAR TOOTH CHIPPING OR GEAR BREAKAGE.
Consequence:
GEAR FAILURE COULD RESULT IN TRANSMISSION LOCKUP, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.
Remedy:
ON VEHICLES WITH 15,000 MILES OR LESS, THE DEALER WILL UPDATE THE TRANSMISSION WITH A SIMPLE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE TO INCREASE LUBRICATION TO THE SECOND GEAR. ON VEHICLES WITH MORE THAN 15,000 MILES, THE DEALER WILL INSPECT THE TRANSMISSION TO IDENTIFY GEARS THAT HAVE ALREADY EXPERIENCED DISCOLORATION DUE TO OVERHEATING. IF DISCOLORATION EXISTS, THE TRANSMISSION WILL BE REPLACED IF DISCOLORATION IS NOT PRESENT, THE DEALER WILL PERFORM THE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON APRIL 21, 2004, FOR PILOT, ODYSSEY, AND MDX OWNERS. OWNERS OF THE ACCORD VEHICLES WILL START RECEIVING LETTERS ON JUNE 28, 2004, AND ON JUNE 29, 2004, FOR OWNERS OF THE TL AND CL VEHICLES. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT HONDA AT 1-800-999-1009 OR ACURA AT 1-800-382-2238.



Here's one of the complaints related to the recall. You call this "good will"?

Make: HONDA
Model: ACCORD

Year: 2003
Complaint Number: 10143399
Summary:
A RECALL NOTICE WAS RECEIVED BY ME FROM HONDA. I TOOK MY CAR TO HONDA AND THEY SAID THEY WOULD INSPECT THE TRANSMISSION. AFTER INSPECTION THEY SAID THERE WAS NO DAMAGE AND THEY SAID THEY INSTALLED A SUPPLEMENTAL COOLING JET. 9 MONTHS LATER I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INTERSECTION AND THE TRANSMISSION FAILED. HONDA REPLACED THE TRANSMISSION WITH A REBUILT ONE BUT THEY WILL NOT COVER THE LABOR COST AND THEY ALSO WILL NOT VERIFY THAT THE REBUILT TRANSMISSION IS ANY BETTER DESIGN THAN THE ORIGINAL WHICH FAILED. THE RECALL ID # IS 04V176000. THE HONDA CASE # IS N012005-09-2200467. *NM


This one resulted in an injury. These are all on the NHTSA's site if you search for complaints on the 2003 Honda Accord.

Make: HONDA
Model: ACCORD

Year: 2003
Complaint Number: 10149685
Summary:
TRANSMISSION FAILURE RESULTING IN LOCKUP AND IMMEDIATE, UNEXPECTED STOP. *NM


I know other mfrs have had their issues too but please stop believing that Honda is some squeaky clean company that is out to save all of us. What level of service you receive all boils down to the dealer IMO.

Are we done with this yet. Does anyone still doubt me?

kdshapiro

"Are we done with this yet. Does anyone still doubt me?"

Not quite. Out of the millions and millions of cars sold by Honda, there is no way 100% satisfaction can be achieved. No manufacturer will have 100% satisfaction, you can always find one consumer who thinks they were wronged in some way.

I'm of the opinion also that Honda generally stands by it's products, from what I've seen in the past. That item is now four years old, if that complaint was registered this year, I think it is a fair deal on both sides, considering the vehicle is four years old. At least, unlike a similiar Ford issue, Honda did not say: "Nothing I can do".

zzzoom6

well looks like someone removed the picture of the interior... search for the temple of vtec and you can see some pictures. Looks pretty decent to me, though some are comparing it to the Civic. Personally I think it's a bit better... at least the dash isn't a parking lot. I like the design of the doors... not too generic and some good flow though somewhat complex yet simple. Steering wheel has gotten kinda out there, but I like it. Hope it drives well!

baggs32

There are Ford dealers that don't say that. Ford sells a LOT more vehicles than Honda and has a lot more dealers than they do. Obviously you are going to hear more complaints for Ford but I think most dealer satisfaction surveys show that Ford dealers are better.

All mfrs pay for repairs out of warranty if pursued to do so in the right way by the right people. That's where a great dealer comes in. All mfrs also extend warranties on common problems like the Accord for Honda and the Focus for Ford for example.

It is very misleading to someone who reads this thread looking for advise because they might be led to believe that Honda will fix anything for them at any time during the life of the car if they buy one. That's plain false. It's case by case and that's for any mfr.