Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott

How about even my 75 year old Mom and my 5 year old grandkid know that FE sells

Yeah, as of about 2 years ago. Prior to that no one cared and we may return to that attitude, if gas prices stay at their present low level.

jeffyscott

I was very happy when gas hit $4-$5 a gallon here in the U.S. This forced all automakers to re-think the markets.

I was happy about that too, because I think it was starting to make things safer for those of us who drive mid-size cars, that are the topic here. But what it did was change the market because it forced vehicle buyers to re-think what they had been doing. Unfortunately with the low gas prices SUVs and trucks seem to have been taken out of mothballs, so there are more of them back on the roads threatening to kill me.

dave8697

I remember back in '92 reading about the Avalon VS a LeSabre in a side by side. Toyota set out to Lure Buick and C. Vic buyers from the D3. Now they want to abandon that size car? Avg LeSabre car buyers were 61 yrs old and gas was headed for 89 cents by the end of the decade. A few pounds doesn't cost that much in FE. I got 30 mpg on a trip with 1200 lbs in a 3650 lb car. Today's 3700-3800 lb cars get 26 hwy with 300 HP and the Yaris only gets 29 city with a manual, 105 ft-lbs and a 7 cu ft trunk.
Some want to turn tech advance into efficiency, some into acceleration, some into comfort, and some into conspicuous consumption.

bobgwtw

You're comparing an Elantra to an Avalon???

backy

Um.... no. Try reading the post that I replied to, it will provide the context.

dave8697

do you work in the auto ins industry and want to see less miles driven?
the real cost of fuel?
gas at $3-3.50 level is a cancer on avg people.
Food jumps $100-200 a month.
Large vehicles lose Billions in value.
Hundreds of thousands of auto jobs are lost.

Not everybody caught in paying $600 a month for gas last summer could afford to go buy a $17000 commuter with an uncomfortable back seat to save $80 a month in gas. 7 states are now looking at raising gas taxes. Mass. by 19 cents a gallon.

College for my son, taxes, health ins and 401k contributions leave me with 35k a year of my paycheck for a family of 4. My house takes the next 21k between mortgage and utilities. Then 7k more for food. After that, I 'm almost good with $1.67 gas that I saw yesterday. My $800 from the stimulus in '09 will go for interest on new college loans and a short vacation.

GM has 44 million more vehicles out there on the roads than the next nearest competitor. All totaled over 80 million GM vehicles out there. That's a lot of people not looking forward to problems getting service and parts going forward, that higher gas would cause.

bhmr59

I was very happy when gas hit $4-$5 a gallon here in the U.S.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on any topic here. What about the guy who drives 500 miles back and forth to work? You'd enjoy him paying $80 or $100 a week just to go to work IF he could average 30 MPG on his commute?

I drive less than 3 miles to work and only drive 6-7 K per year, but it hurt every time I put $65 in to the tank.

It that makes you happy, why don't you peddle a bicycle every day...and do it in a hilly area like New England.

thegraduate

Back in '92? The Avalon didn't even debut until '95!

lilengineerboy

That is the stupidest thing I have ever seen on any topic here. What about the guy who drives 500 miles back and forth to work? You'd enjoy him paying $80 or $100 a week just to go to work IF he could average 30 MPG on his commute?

Why does he live so far from work?

acdii

Gee dont you think some people might not be able to find a job down the street from where they live? I happen to be one of those who put 500 miles on a week going to work. Most cities and villages don't allow you to keep horses on your property, does that answer your dumb question?

dave8697

your right. It couldn't have been '92. The car went on sale in '94 so they didn't know most details about it until late '93.

mtnman1

Long live the SUV! I bought mine purely for status and the fact that I can crush mid sized cars. Oh Yeah! I hate small little cars. If only it didn't cost so much for repairs after I drive over one.

lilengineerboy

Gee dont you think some people might not be able to find a job down the street from where they live? I happen to be one of those who put 500 miles on a week going to work. Most cities and villages don't allow you to keep horses on your property, does that answer your dumb question?

Well, sort of. Why wouldn't you relocate or carpool? Right now its not worth it, but hmm at $5/gal, makes you kind of review some lifestyle choices, eh?

imidazol97

>I drive less than 3 miles to work and only drive 6-7 K per year

Six miles to work and home would be 1560 miles per year. Divide by 25 miles per gallon gives 62.4 gallons and a tank of 16 gallons running near empty would be 4 fillups (3.9 ) per year. That's not much to complain about a $2 or $4.50.

Perhaps your extra driving is the problem. That's causing an extra 11 fillups per year. Still not much to complain about.

akirby

Unique vehicles + low volume, with Lincoln (and Ford) getting the bulk of the investment dollars, doesn't sound like a winning proposition for Mercury.

But it will be a winning proposition for Ford (the company), and that's all that matters. As long as Mercury can share platforms and put out great vehicles with great styling and features then they can easily survive as a niche brand which compliments the mainstream offerings from Ford and Lincoln.

What else could Mercury possibly bring to the table? Rebadged Fords or decontented Lincolns just doesn't make sense.

mickeyrom

Gas prices will NOT stay at this level.Opec, and especially Venezuela,will make sure of that.

robsis

So, back a little more on topic (IMHO, where people choose to live and work is their choice and not part of an automotive conversation...), I would like to hear opinions on the press suddenly having a love fest with the Fusion Hybrid.....like the front page Yahoo link from this AM comparing it's drivetrain to a $100k+ Lexus hybrid....

Is this car truly worth the $30+k that we'll have to fork out for it....or is this just the latest 'in' car to write about, putting the Prius on the back page as 'old news'?

I liked the '09 non hybrid Fusion; however, thought there were waaaaay too many other sedans out there in auto land that competed against it that I believed to be more refined (speaking of the engines and drivetrains..)at a competitive price.....is this hybrid version that great, or just the latest press swoon? (especially since it is an 'American' car).

Thnx, in advance, for your discussion points....

stephen987

I think the newsworthiness of the Fusion Hybrid comes from (a) the fact that it beats the Camry Hybrid in EPA fuel economy at a time when potential buyers remember $4/gal fuel costs, and (b) it's the product of a US-based company at a time when US-based automakers are widely regarded as an endangered species.

backy

What else could Mercury possibly bring to the table?

What else indeed. You stated that Mercury needs to offer unique vehicles. You also noted that Ford's investment money was going to Lincoln. I would expect a lot would also be going to Ford, e.g. for the Fusion Hybrid, the new/revised powertrains, the new small cars. It takes investment money to design and build and maintain parts inventory for unique cars, even if they share a platform with other vehicles. It's very hard to recoup that investment at low sales volumes. So I don't see where the formula you laid out for Mercury--unique vehicles, low sales volumes, and investment going to other brands--is a winner for Mercury, or for Ford overall. Investing in unique, low volume vehicles for Mercury will just sap needed investment dollars from Lincoln (struggling to become a bona-fide luxury brand once again) and the mother brand, Ford.

I agree with the other poster who said Mercury should be killed. Farewell, Milan! We hardly knew ye.

iluvmysephia1

seems you've hit the nail right on it's head with your explanation for all the 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid praise. It does look to be the real thing, barring a test-drive, though. Ford, IMO, is drastically pulling itself up by it's bootstraps and getting all the more competitive these days.

cannon3

Wow, I took some flack for wanting higher gas prices! For me personally, I am all for user fees/taxes. I use it, I will pay for it. The U.S. for decades has paid way too little for gas. The REAL price for gas. The environmental costs, social costs, and so on.. Gas right now at $2 a gallon is a joke. For those who have went and purchased a new SUV/Truck for purely a status symbol, your in for a surprise in the next 2 years. Gas will go up to easily $3 a gallon in the coming 6-9 months. For those Americans with foresight and smarts. Their next vehicle will be a smaller car. The car companies that stick to better MPG vehicles will survive. India is yet to come online folks as a country that demands oil.
Ok, I'm done back on topic.. sorry...

dave8697

The recent stock market drop to 6 year lows. What was gas 6 yrs ago? $1.35? The stock market is an indicator of how the economy will be doing 6 months later. That means August will be a bad month for the economy. I expect gas to be no more than $2.25 unless a hurricane hits the gulf bad. Today it was $1.63 in my town.

stephen987

I didn't mean to imply that the Fusion Hybrid wasn't a good car--I think it's probably the best overall hybrid package out there right now. But I'm skeptical about hybrids in general, because they seem to entail a wide range of dynamic compromises: poor steering feel (due to electric power steering), poor braking feel (due to regenerative braking), poor handling (due to extra weight and low rolling resistance tires). It's true that there are ways to compensate for all of the above, but doing so reduces the hybrid fuel economy advantage considerably.

On the other hand, I'd dearly love to see what could be done if the money currently invested in hybrid technology were instead diverted into improved diesels. Imagine a Fusion powered by something like the VW TDI powerplant range.

canddmeyer

I will vouch that where I live there was at least 20% less cars on the road when gas hit $4+ a gallon. I saw less speeding, less accidents, and had less idiots to deal with. At the time it didn't do anything for car sales in my area as most folks were pretty much stuck with what they had, which were low mpg trucks and suv's that had low resale value. Public transit ridership increased dramatically.

So while I'm no fan of $4 gallon gasoline, I did see the side benefits firsthand. FYI> when it $4 elsewhere it was almost $5 here in California. Fillups were running me $80 versus the $40 I'm paying now for my suv. But because I live close to work, fillups were about 3 weeks apart.

I think people took the hint, as lately no one is buying new trucks or suv's around here. Used car sales however appear to be going well, and new car sales are slowly picking up. People are hanging onto their vehicles longer.....myself included.

Given the choice of paying $4 gallon gasoline versus $2 gallon with gas lines, I'll pay the $4.

akirby

I guess I wasn't clear. Right now Ford is pouring all it's resources into Ford first, then Lincoln. And that's the right priority. Mercury isn't getting anything except the new Milan, and that's only because the L/M dealers need the volume right now.

When I said niche and low volume I wasn't talking about something like the prowler - I was thinking more along the lines of a small 2 seat roadster based on the Miata or the Lincoln MKC concept - luxury small car. I also believe some of the European Fords headed this way might end up as a Mercury. As long as they have unique vehicles and not just rebadges I think they'll be ok. Lincoln will be the volume/profit center.

akirby

For those who have went and purchased a new SUV/Truck for purely a status symbol

Why does everyone say this? If you're talking about the ones that are all blinged out then fine, but that's the minority of SUVs, not the majority. The majority are usually used by families who simply want the extra room and flexibility of a large vehicle with multi-row seating. They're not status symbols for them. You could argue whether or not they need that much room all the time, but then again we could probably ask the same question about what you drive. If you drive a Camry, why not a Yaris or Prius? If you drive a Yaris then why not a SMART car? Why do you have any say in what others drive? It's their money and if gas costs $4/gallon then people might make different choices. But it's still their choice.

stephen987

Mercury could have a real future as an outlet for European Fords in the US--but only if that's all Mercury does. A Mondeo would cost too much to sell here as a Ford, but position it as a Mercury, with some exclusivity (no Ford-branded version), and it's a great companion for Lincoln. There's also probably room for the Euro Focus as an entry-level Mercury, but since that market is more price-sensitive, volume would be low.

akirby

The next generation Fusion and Mondeo will share the same global platform. You can't directly compare European and North American prices.

backy

Re-badging European Fords as Mercurys... that has a familiar ring to it for some reason. Does Merkur come to mind? How did that work out?

The Mondeo might be a good choice as a Mercury, since the price could be high enough to cover its costs, but that's one car--not enough to build a brand around. And it would be a car that would steal sales from the Fusion at the low end and the smallest Lincoln at the high end. I think Ford would be making a mistake on giving the European Focus to Mercury. Ford desparately needs to redesign the US Focus sometime in our lifetimes, and using the European model is the most efficient way to do that. Also, history had proven that small Mercurys don't sell.

bhmr59

Are you saying you have gasoline lines now?

dave8697

Exxon makes that without lines at the pump. I'd hate to imagine what their profits would be if there were lines. The new am/pm by me has 24 dispensing hoses and 2 other stations are at the same intersection. When I was in gas lines back in '73, most stations had 2 pumps operating and there was a 5 or 10 gallon limit.
It cost Saudi A. $6 to get a barrel of oil out of the ground and sent off on a ship to the US. Now they own a lot of the US. How would we drive to their hotels in Vegas if they didn't keep us in gas?

thegraduate

How would we drive to their hotels in Vegas if they didn't keep us in gas?

Do you want to drive to their hotels in Vegas, or to their hotels in Vegas?




:P

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

elroy5

We could go to Vegas, in Vegas, if we could find a couple Vegas. I haven't seen Vegas, or Vegas, in a long time.

lilengineerboy

We could go to Vegas, in Vegas, if we could find a couple Vegas. I haven't seen Vegas, or Vegas, in a long time.

Make mine a Cosworth Vega, 16 valve DOHC fuel injected motor in a mainstream vehicle in 1976. Sometimes GM blew it, but that, at the time, was pushing it a bit to get "engine technology" to come down-market. It was still pushing it when the came out with the the Olds Quad4 (although if that captain guy wants to talk about rough...). I think that was the foundation for the Ecotech I4 that they use in everything.

imidazol97

>How would we drive to their hotels in Vegas if they didn't keep us in gas?

Do you want to drive to their hotels in Vegas, or to their hotels in Vegas?

I don't know whether to give the ingenuity in punning award or to cry because it is so BAD! But that was great. You made my day and get a gold star on your chart.

acdii

So if they have a family, they sure aren't going to get a Smart car now will they? I thankfully am able to afford two car payments so I have a CUV, Hyundai Veracruz, and a Toyota Camry Hybrid, guess which one has the most miles on it! For the longest time all I had was my F350 Dually Diesel, and I drove that everyday to work, by myself, not car pooling, of course I was single then, and didn't have 3 kids, have several horses and a farm. I didn't feel the need to buy a little car, had no need for it, and diesel was cheap. I get married, diesel skyrockets, kids happen, and I need more room, so park the truck and get an SUV, I hate SUV's, so I get a Crown Vic, has room, but its just not enough when we all want to go somewhere, so we wind up taking two cars, so finally I break down and start looking for a 7 passenger car, and found the Veracruz, I like it, its an over sized station wagon. Hey why dont they make full size station wagons anymore? Those were great cars, got 20+ MPG even back in 1979 when emissions controls consisted of an air pump and catalytic converter and a carburetor. I have looked all over to try to find a late 80s station wagon in good shape, but they are hard to find, and could seat 8 or 9 people. Hey Detroit, drop those damned ugly suv's and make us some nice station wagons again, I'll buy one!

Oh I had a 73 Vega hatchback many moons ago, good little car for what it was.

thegraduate

Sorry, I know that joke was so corny I could shuck it. Glad it made SOMEBODY smile. Haha!

Back to your regularly scheduled sedans.

jeffyscott

The majority are usually used by families who simply want the extra room and flexibility of a large vehicle with multi-row seating. They're not status symbols for them.

I think they are status symbols in that case as well...or perhaps a better way of putting it is that they purchased an SUV, in part, for the image. If they were not concerned about image, and wanted multi-row seating, they'd have saved a bundle of money and bought a minivan back in the day when that was the obvious, lower cost, alternative to to the SUV that was to be used in the way you have described. Did mom really need a Ford Expedition or Excursion to take the kids to soccer practice or might a Windstar have sufficed, if only dad were not worried that he'd look like a girlie man when he drove it?

stephen987

Minivans offer comparable space and better fuel efficiency than full-size SUVs. Yet the conventional minivan has lost significant market share.

Midsize Sedans like my '02 Accord V6 can get an easy 22-25 mpg, while possessing vastly superior handling--thus superior accident avoidance capability. The fact that I can't carry a whole Little League team with me is also a plus.
(Note the gentle reminder regarding the topic.)

backy

And not only is the Vega you pictured not a sedan, it's certainly not mid-sized.

I am sure you of all people appreciate someone pointing that out to you.

thegraduate

I knew I'd hear about it from SOMEWHERE, I just wasn't sure where . I'm just happy the wahhhh-fest is over.

Anybody test-driven a new Fusion yet, or are they even on lots yet?

stephen987

Anybody test-driven a new Fusion yet, or are they even on lots yet?

I've been watching closely. I know I'll sound like a total geek when I say this, but I'm very interested in driving one with the 2.5/6MT combo. To me that one is more appealing than either the Hybrid or the 3.5 Sport.

Ford doesn't have the configurator up yet for the 2010 Fusion, and my local dealer is still packed with close to twenty '09s. In fact, they didn't get rid of the last of their '08s till about three weeks ago. I assume that the new ones will start to trickle out of Hermosillo sometime in the next month or so.

akirby

I guess we disagree on what a status symbol is then. To me a status symbol (whether it's a SUV or a mid-sized sedan ) is something you drive to impress other people. Choosing a large, comfy SUV with lots of room is simply a driver preference (Hummers would be the exception here - those are definitely status symbols). Some people like tiny sports cars, some people like minivans, some like pickups, some like crossovers and some like SUVs - all for their own individual reasons.

backy

I drove a 2006 Fusion S with the stick a few years ago, and I liked the shifter action. If the new 6MT is anything like that, plus with a higher (read "fuel saving and noise reducing") top gear, that would be pretty enticing (would just have to sell my DW on a stick). Plus with standard ESC on all trims (right?) for 2010, even a base Fusion with a stick would make a very nice ride. I'd just avert my eyes when approaching the car from the front.

cannon3

With the never ending evolution of the 4cyl engine by all manufactures. How long do you think it is going to be that the V6 mid-size sedan is going to be history? or manufactured in very low numbers? or only available in certain trim levels?
Todays 4cyl engine is now able to output as much as some V6 engines in both HP and torque and give good MPG numbers and admirable performance. I figure this trend is going to continue at a rapid pace in the next 5-10 years.
What is your thought?
:shades:

m6user

Just back into the garage and you'd hardly ever have to see the face.

I saw it at the auto show and it really doesn't look bad in person.

lilengineerboy

Todays 4cyl engine is now able to output as much as some V6 engines in both HP and torque and give good MPG numbers and admirable performance. I figure this trend is going to continue at a rapid pace in the next 5-10 years.

Today's 4 cylinders are as big as some I6 and V6 engines as well. My Accord has a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder and my Legacy has a 2.5 liter 4 cylinder, while my Contour had a 2.5 liter V6 (that was more powerful than either of the 4 cylinders).

(I expect full points for mentioning all midsize cars in my post. )

stephen987

The 2.4L four in the current Accord EX is within 10 hp of my '02 3.0 V6. I know someone will come back with "yeah, but it doesn't have the torque." Truth of the matter is that even the 3.0 Honda engine isn't a torque monster. But you can make up for torque with gearing, to some extent.

milkman1

since the Fulan main page has been hijacked by fuel economy types, does anyone know more on when the Fusion willbe in showrooms? The send me an email today making one think you could price a new one on the main ford page. You get there and it sends you back to the 2009's. Product department genius at it again. I wish we took product development seriously as a career path in this country. I am pretty convinced it's part of our troubles at this point.

phaetondriver

BTW It would be Vega's vs Las Vegas
I owned a Vega Kamback exactly as pictured but with the twin cam Lotus engine. It was a screamer and handled like a Elan. Loved that car right up till the engine melted.