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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Is the Altima the only midsize that doesn't have stability control standard?
    I've seen reviewers write about whether or not a car has stability control or not. I've even seen a few things about how intrusive some systems are, compared to others. But I have yet to see anyone actually test the different systems, to see which are more likely to prevent a crash. Would the more intrusive systems be safer? Or is there more to it? Would a dealership let you test the system during a test drive? :surprise:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, Altima is now one of the very few w/o standard stability control. It's hard to find another mid-sizer that doesn't have that feature. I'm not sure the Galant does, for example. The 2010 Fulan has it. So that was apparently enough to draw CR's wrath.

    I've read some test drive reports where the driver intentionally tried out the ESC. I've driven many cars with it and I don't think I've ever activated it. Personally I think crash safety is more important than ESC, because I have control over how I drive a car and can teach my kids how to drive (although it doesn't mean they'll listen). But I can't control someone else driving recklessly. However, that being said I would prefer to have ESC than not have it. On most cars, it can be turned off if you don't believe in it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    who reads cr drive anything but a honda or toyota?
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Yes. I read CR and drive a Dodge truck, once a month or thereabouts. Of course, the rest of the time I do drive a Honda, but I've also owned two Chevys, two Nissans, a Fiat, a Mustang, two Ranger pickups, and a diesel Mercedes.

    Oh, and I also read Car and Driver, Road & Track, Automobile, AutoWeek, and National Geographic, not to mention Foreign Affairs and The Economist, as well as Wired and Vanity Fair and GQ. And People and Entertainment Weekly.

    What, exactly, was your point?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    do you contribute to their surveys?
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Yes, I do. So they've heard all about my Civic, my Accord, my Kenmore washer/dryer, etc. There are some problems with their surveys, but those problems are well documented elsewhere, such as the Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings forum here.

    For what it's worth, CR lists among the most reliable midsize sedans the Sonata and Fusion, and the Camry Hybrid, but not the regular Camry or Accord. So perhaps it might be more reasonable to ask why anyone who does read CR doesn't drive a Ford or Hyundai.

    I'm tired of taking trollbait. I'm outta here.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    thanks, i missed the download section. although i know they usually have it.
    the accord and the fusion have the exact same tire.
    the powertrain chart has some interesting statistics.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    sorry you feel that way and i don't see any reason to leave this forum.
    it is ok to have a different perspective than someone else.
    if they are going to print toyota camry, except v-6, wouldn't if be more accurate to report fusion I4 and V6, sonata I4 and V6, camry I4.
    i guess that subtlety is missed by most people.
    i'm sure if you asked most camry V6 drivers, they would think it is a cr recommended vehicle.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Accord is a reliable car but is it the best, not really.

    The dash is way busy, the handling is so-so and the looks are probably the most drab in the mid-size segment.

    I suspect CR doesn't like to take chances on a Mazda or a Chevy or a Nissan because they would rather go with the reliability they have stuck with in Honda and Toyota for 10 years.

    Fact is the CamCord juggernaut is not what it used to be. The midsize segment is full of good cars now. CR is not the place for enthusiasts to find cars anyway.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Accord is where it is because of overall solid competence for many years, and because of no major flaws (the biggest ones reviewers can come up with seem to be "road noise", "too many buttons", "too big", and "ugly").

    Interestingly, Accord is no longer one of the most reliable mid-sized cars, at least according to CR. Mid-sized sedans that have higher predicted reliability per CR are the Optima (yep, a Kia!), Fusion/Milan, and the Camry and Altima Hybrids. In another surprise, the non-hybrid Camry and Altima are just average in predicted reliability--bested by the likes of Accord, Aura, Malibu, G6 (I4), and Sonata.

    I agree though that the mid-sized sedan segment is full of good cars, and reliable ones at that. The only mid-sized sedans with below-average predicted reliability per CR are the Passat, G6 V6, and Avenger (the only one that is "much worse than average").
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Fusion gets the nod in the midsize category, Milan and Legacy get honorable mentions - I think those are all of the available AWD cars in the class. ;)
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    I am sure we will see more comparisons from many other car sites/mags since the Fusion/Milan are new this year. I just would like to see more apples to apples comparisons. Make sure the vehicles have the EXACT same or very, very close to the same trim levels, engines, transmissions and so on... Then, be UNBIAS. Give just the FACTS/Figures for each vehicle. This segment is so competitive now. Anyone who follows vehicles knows the Camry/Accord aren't really the top dogs any longer. With the Malibu/Aura, Optima, Sonata, Fusion/Milan, Passat/Jetta, Altima showing promise. Most know, competition breeds better. Toyota/Honda could not have hoped to hold the reliability card forever. But Hey, its good for the consumer! Test drives are free!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    how about volvo s60, audi a4, bmw 3x? maybe they in a different catagory.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    how about volvo s60, audi a4, bmw 3x? maybe they in a different category.

    I think those guys are up a price bracket, along with the Lexus IS and GS AWDs and the Infiniti G37
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    Agree so much with the statement that this segment is really full of good cars. We just went though the process of a new sedan purchase
    Was in no real hurry to buy my 04 Accord exl was just fine but seemed like the time to buy as we would have needed to trade in 12 months or so any how so why not now while the dealers are hurting than in a yr when things hopefully will be better. So started with this list
    accord
    camary
    fusion milian
    altima
    g6
    g8
    vibe/matrix
    sonata
    mazda 6
    forester
    malibu
    impala
    Think thats it we took about a month of test driving and narrowing down to the final 3 then took a second drive ALL WERE GREAT
    some that we drove some where taken off the list due to previous experince or dealers
    accord - its accord noise issues and the current ugliness shot it down
    camry-this was number one choice going in to final 3
    fusion milian Milan number 2 going in to final 3
    altima- just didnt like the interior seemed cheaper than accord and the price was out of line with camary
    g6-didnt like the looks
    g8-same here and we loved our 03 grand am
    vibe/matrix - great car for a one car family lots of space and good looks
    sonata - wife just couldnt buy a hynduai
    mazda 6 - same here bad experince wtih mazda dealers in the past
    forester - liked it but the 100% forigen build turned us off
    malibu number 3 going in to the last phase
    impala - old looking but a good solid car (my mother just had to trade her wrecked buick and got a new 08 and it is ok good milage and space but just looks a little old

    so Camry xle or SE V6
    Milian
    Malibu
    Where the 3 we started end to the last phase with
    Camry - xle nice car hated the stupid rear reclining seats vice split Hello its a camry not a rolls royce and the colors both choices were light carpet colors looks nice but not with teenagers in fact every new one we looked at the leather was already scuffed and carpet dirty
    Milan - only real complaints was the weak v6 and the rear seat head rests to low for normal people (the mercury dealer was GREAT)
    Malibu LTZ V6 Liked both the lt2 v6 and the lt2 4 cyl and could have taken either one but in the end the ltz won out esp with the pricing

    but unlike 5 years ago when we went with accord there were many good choices and what you were down to was littel things color seats and of course price (the ltz was over 4 k less than the best price on a camry the milian about the same price or within 1k

    No bad choices here really at all very inpressed with most of them and really with the new 4cyl engines they have came a long way in the last decade
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    Did you choose one? buy one? I read your review and could not see if you ended up making a choice? :confuse:
  • cannon3cannon3 Member Posts: 296
    The Accord styling is I know subjective and a personal choice. I have been a fan of the Accord for years. I liked the styling for years. However I believe the latest is going to turn more people away. Too many lines, too many panels going in every which direction. Honda I am sure will be able to see this and change this pretty fast. Honda is small and efficient enough to change with the markets.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    umm....

    Malibu LTZ V6 Liked both the lt2 v6 and the lt2 4 cyl and could have taken either one but in the end the ltz won out esp with the pricing
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    accord - its accord noise issues and the current ugliness shot it down
    g6-didnt like the looks
    g8-same here and we loved our 03 grand am


    Ok, I can understand not being in love with the new Accord's looks, but then to say you loved the 03 Grand Am's looks. :confuse: Boggles the mind.
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    Ok, I can understand not being in love with the new Accord's looks, but then to say you loved the 03 Grand Am's looks. Boggles the mind.


    Sorry excuse me lol!! hey at the time it was pretty nice we had the se ver with all the sports stuff on it. had it for 7 years and only was in the shop for 1 day the grand am was one of the sporty sedans at that time
    ... and in fact we sold it to a friend of the wife and she drove it 3 more years then was passed on as college car for one of her kids that still has it so far nothing but tires brakes on it
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    The ltz won out. got it on feb 20 so far love it just tried out the onstar directions and the onstar phone on saturday pretty neat and clear the directions work great hard to beat it with a 23444 otd price in virgina
    the camry was over 27500 otd
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    agree, was surprised at work that several guys had the same opinion on the currect accord (and acura tl as well) and yes all were currect accord owners or civic owners. its just something with the lines and the trunk as rich at work said "to much booty and im not eddie murphy"

    the inside was still nice and all the honda ness of it was still there sure it will be bullet proof car
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    :confuse: There's is a Chevy but no Pontiac.Sonata and and no Optima.Fusion and no Milan...Is there a rational reason for this?
    They all are mid-size sedans.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    If you were to go back into the deep history of this forum, you'd find that the moderators explained it basically as a lack of sufficient space to list ALL of the possible midsize sedans that could be discussed, and they simply chose to list the most popular at the time. No prejudice intended.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, maybe pretty soon there will be room for the likes of the Optima or Legacy et. al., since at least one of the cars on the right may be not long for this world. :sick:
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    Yes, the Aura does appear to be an endangered species. Then again, in this economy, almost everyone is vulnerable--even Toyota is scheduling "off days" for assembly plants because of oversupply.

    I have high hopes that cars like the Malibu and Fusion, which are fully competitive in the midsize sedan market, may be able to bring their manufacturers into a stronger position soon.

    If they don't, I suspect Hyundai/Kia will be in the strongest position to take advantage of the US brands' decline, since the US brands (with the exception of the Aura and the newest Malibu) have mostly competed at the low end of the midsize price range for most of the last decade. (Note: I'm talking about real-world transaction prices such as Edmunds' TMV or the actual selling prices found on CarsDirect.com, not MSRP.)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I really don't think the Camry is in any danger of disappearing anytime soon. We won't see 500k of them sold in the US in a year for a little while, though.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see the Aura, Galant, Sebring, and Avenger go bye-bye though. Personally I think the G6 should go before the Aura, especially with a slick Opel-based replacement waiting in the wings for the Aura and the G6 being the worst of the General's mid-sizers. Maybe it's Pontiac that should get the axe, not Saturn, since Pontiac doesn't have any unque products except the G8, and that could easily go to Chevy.
  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I agree--Camry and Accord will survive, on brand equity. The Altima is probably safe too. Anything else is hard to predict, but Hyundai is in a strong position to mop up after anyone else's failure.

    I had a rental Galant for a few days back in December, and it was nothing special. Mitsubishi is another brand that has depended on deep discounts and special finance deals (such as balloon notes), at least around here, and our local Mitsu dealer just vanished into thin air last week. I suspect that the local Hyundai dealer will pick up conquest sales here.

    It's starting to look like GM may be spinning off its European operations--if so, then the Saturn brand could survive as essentially the US dealer network for an independent Opel. But it would be tough--I think Opel's been part of GM since about 1922.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    had it for 7 years and only was in the shop for 1 day the grand am was one of the sporty sedans at that time
    ... and in fact we sold it to a friend of the wife and she drove it 3 more years


    When did you buy your 03 GrandAm, 1999???
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Personally I think the G6 should go before the Aura, especially with a slick Opel-based replacement waiting in the wings for the Aura

    There is nothing in the wings waiting for Saturn. Remember, GM is letting the brand die by 2012 unless the become an independent brand, or someone buys them....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What I probably should have said, to make it crystal clear, is that the Opel replacement for the Aura was all lined up BEFORE the recent talks of Saturn's demise.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Ya.. we ended up with a Malibu LT with the V6 option. I liked the rims and seats better and it was a bit cheaper. I also got a left over 08 and if I wanted an LTZ I would have had to buy an 09 with less incentives and a slightly higher sticker.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    The Opel replacement for Aura is going to Buick, likely as the new Regal.

    The pictures I have seen of the Chinese model are amazing.
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    sorry typo 93 not 03 did a special order via diplomatic sales for stateside delivery as we came back to the states
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    lt2 was great as well we drove both the 4 and 6 version of that and if the deal on the ltz hadnt gone thru and the price we wanted would have
    went with a lt2 v6 that another dealer had at about 1500 less but this ltz had been on the lot for 90 days and they really came off quickly on the price (total dicker time was about 10 mins and all i said was " how much off the costco price can you give me lol )
    which color did you go with we were between the silver and the grey and the silver was the choice for us this time.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    93? Ok, that makes much more sense. I was actually looking at the Grand Am at that time too. Back then, they were sporty looking.
  • surfgermanysurfgermany Member Posts: 24
    Yep, infact in 04 when we were shopping for the Accord we first went to look at the grand am or the grand prix didnt even take a test drive the sportiness was gone and the interior was so cheap looking that we dropped them off the list with one good look and we both liked the 04 accord looks (the first time we had really considered a honda) and other than the front brakes having to be turned at 5000 miles for shimmy under a recall or tsb its and a relay for turn signals its been ok for 70000 miles.
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    I had a choice between silver and silver. There was only 2 2008's left and they were both the same color. I probably would have gone with silver anyway. It matches well with the SS style wheels.

    I had no interest in a 4 cyl. even with gas where it was. I have always driven strong V6 engines, not going to stop now.

    Only things I wish I had were climate control and fog lights. Oh well.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I kind of thought it was a typo....just checking. I bought a 92 GrandAM(first year of new body style) and kept it for about 6 years. Had good luck with it...pretty peppy and nice handling.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I really liked the looks of the 1992+ Grand Am 2-door. In fact, I looked pretty seriously at buying one before I decided to get a smaller car instead. For its time, I thought it was a nice car for the money.

    image
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think this is more dated than the vehicle backy pictured, other than the blinkers in the bumper (which i still prefer over the headlight-integration). That's one thing I don't like about cars today - the headlight housing includes blinkers, making them MUCH less visible at night, when headlamps are on.

    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, the black car is a newer Grand Am than the red one.

    My wife encouraged me to get the 1992 Grand Am. I guess she liked its looks also. Instead, I went more practical and leased a '92 Sentra 2-door ($149/month, nothing down, too good to pass up). It was a good little car, just not as good looking as that Grand Am. One thing GM has done well over the years IMO is their sedan styling is, overall, quite good. I think the Aura, Malibu, even G6 are all good looking cars. And now the mechanicals and quality are rising up to match the styling.
  • bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    One thing GM has done well over the years IMO is their sedan styling is, overall, quite good. I think the Aura, Malibu, even G6 are all good looking cars. And now the mechanicals and quality are rising up to match the styling.
    Amen to that. And add the CTS (it's midsize) to the list.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That's my point. The older design looks better, and less dated to me.

    I know the one I pictured is newer!! :D

    One thing GM has done well over the years IMO is their sedan styling is, overall, quite good.

    They've had a few fumbles, I think, but overall, yes they've been ok. The 90s were a quirky period for some of them, while others were pretty dull!

    image
    image
    image
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    But the CTS is not a mid-sizer in the context of this discussion, as it's in the luxury class along with several other mid-sizers.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Look at those pictures again and you'll understand why GM tanked!
  • vanman1vanman1 Member Posts: 1,397
    Grand Am was actually a big seller. I never cared for it but I know many people that owned them.

    Aura and Malibu are both very nice looking cars, G6 is nice on the outside but doesn't have as nice an interior in my eye.

    My branch manager sat in my Malibu last week and said, wow! He was shocked by the quality of the Malibu interior. Thay was exactly my reaction when I first sat in one. I never would have dreamed I would buy a Malibu before the new model came!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,672
    Thank you for posting your comments about the Malibu. For years people criticized some GM products as needing better interiors because they didn't compare to whatever that poster's favorite car model was. The better interiors have been coming despite GM's financial problems.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • stephen987stephen987 Member Posts: 1,994
    I love the fact that the Malibu and Aura (and the Enclave, for that matter) have gotten away from the Asian preoccupation with grey and greige interiors. Some of the new GM interior treatments have almost an Audi look. The feel isn't quite up to Audi levels--but then we shouldn't expect it to be, since the Aura and Malibu aren't selling for $35k+.

    This is an area where GM has made tremendous progress. I hope to see more of it.
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