Midsize Sedans 2.0

captain2

guess youi must have owned that same Mazda 6 that one poster was claiming was worth more than he paid for it because silly Edmund's said so? It does surprise me thought that the depreciation hit would be as severe with the Mazdaspeed, a niche vehicle if there ever was one.

captain2

the prices seem about right for both, and both cars with a manual tranny be ready for a little tugging at the steering wheel. The Altima rates near (or at the top of its class -including Accords) depreciation wise - so if you are not likely to be keeping the car for 7+ years,the Altima should win hands down from a cost to own perspective. The Nissan VQ is still perhaps the most proven and reliable V6 available , while I'd be hesitant to buy a turbocharged anything.
And yes, I own a 03 3.5SE (auto) 25-26 mpg overall, 75k, and never been back to the dealer for anything - the way it should be. EXCEPT for some collison repairs after my wife got rearended - which is how I found out about the resale values, the darn insurance co. wouldn't total it because THEY thought it was still worth substantially more than the $11k it took to fix it. The wife, of course, had her heart set on a new 07 model at the time and STILL DOES even though they did a good job on the repairs. Somehow, I think I'm going to lose this battle - again!
I did get a chance to drive the new 08, found that the interior quality/fit & finish had improved tremendously - thought the CVTs behavior was a bit disconcerting, although I know she would love it - it is smoooooth. MTXs, of course, in big city traffic, out of the question for her and me.

akirby

Same basic engine is true - it's the same block and maybe bottom end, but as you can see there are multiple versions with very different top end components.

advequityguy

A niche car like no other. About 22 grand at best once it rolls off the lot.

jd10013

I am torn between these 2 cars and looking for input.
They are both approx $24k plus tax, tag and title.
2007 Altima 3.5SE manual
2007 Mazdaspeed6 Sport manual

boy, that is a tough one. If its performance you want, I'd have to go with the altima. Gotta love that VQ. But, if your primary concern is price, you'd almost deffinitly get the 6 either for less, or same with more options.

lilengineerboy

boy, that is a tough one. If its performance you want, I'd have to go with the altima. Gotta love that VQ.

I would definitely reverse that. For performance I would go for the AWD/Turbo. It runs like a mild mannered grocery getter until you get into boost, and then you feel yourself getting pressed into the seatback mmm.

plekto

I am torn between these 2 cars and looking for input.
They are both approx $24k plus tax, tag and title.
2007 Altima 3.5SE manual
2007 Mazdaspeed6 Sport manual
****

You could also look at the Subaru WRX TR. Cars Direct has them for about 22.5K as well, and it's a much better choice than either of those two, IMO. That also leaves enogh room to get a couple of handling and interior goodies thrown in and still be under $24K.

#2 of course is my favorite, the RX-8. It's the best car for $24K than you can get aside from *maybe* the WRX. Loads of fun and still pretty decent for commuting - it won't beat you up like a 350Z or Mustang.

$24,271 including delivery via cars direct(Pasadena, CA). that is for a base model with the performance package - limited slip, foglights, and stability control. Other options? - maybe get a spoiler thrown in. The car is pretty well equipped as it is.

goodegg

Plekto - those are hardly midsize sedans. Especially not the RX8 with it's sardine can interior. The Subie is sweet, but small.

What about a 2008 CTS with a 6 speed? Could be worth the wait, altho kinda pricey.

bhmr59

Resale value is just part of the car sales game, invented decades ago by GM. (Buy a GM and you'll get top $ on a trade in.) That was before many people knew about how to buy a new car. The GM guy would give a top $ trade-in value against the MSRP (or near MSRP) of a new GM car. Trade-in a Ford, Chrysler or Rambler on a GM and they'd hose you on both ends of the deal.

Peopel who plan on keeping a new car for 5 or more years shouldn't be concerned with resale or trade-in value. In my state, CT, if a car is totaled the insurance company has to pay retail used car value.

A couple months ago I looked at retail value of my '05 Sonata and it was only ~ $2,000 less than what I paid in April '05.

I paid $4 or $5K less than a comparable camcord would have cost. Tell me where I'm taking a beating on depreciation.

elroy5

A couple months ago I looked at retail value of my '05 Sonata and it was only ~ $2,000 less than what I paid in April '05.

Yeah, too bad YOU can't sell it for retail. :surprise:

plekto

The RX-8 is fine - really, even in most midsize sedans, is it really useable in the rear for more than two kids or small adults? A 2+2 car the size of an Infinity G35 is just fine, IMO.(and yes, it's actually as large as a Mazda 6 or 350Z/G35). Midsize sport sedan with a silly amount of visual trickery and tweaking going on to make it look like a small coupe.

The Subaru is a real driver's car and will do just fine for family use. It's about the same size as an old Volvo 240, which was considered a fine family car back in the day, size-wise.

m1miata

You do realize that people pay $1,500 to more an $2K less than sticker for Toyotas and Hondas, as well as, finding deals on Hyundais. You may indeed pay less and if you feel the car is as good, then you have made a good deal. When talking dollar value, wait until the car actually sells to determine the difference from buy to sell. The retail value could become meaningless. Or surprise :surprise: you sell the car for a good sum. Let us know.
Loren

zzzoom6

guess youi must have owned that same Mazda 6 that one poster was claiming was worth more than he paid for it because silly Edmund's said so?

captain, I love how you selectively quote what others write so as to misrepresent what they really say... nice try. what I said was that I did an appraisal of my car on Kelly Blue Book and found that the retail value of my mazda6 after owning it for 18 months and having 20k miles on it, it was coming up that the suggested retail price was higher than what I paid for it. The bigger point I was making was that when buying certain cars that were/are being discounted heavily, this can help reduce the impact of depreciation if a buyer was concerned about buying a certain car because of bad resale value. There has been lots of talk in this thread that buying a camcord has the added advantage that resale values are higher thus the true cost to own calculations benefit camcords... but my experience shows that if a buyer is able to buy a car that is heavily discounted, this benefit can be flipped where the advantage is actually with the heavily discounted car, in this case, my mazda6 has an amazing resale value because I was able to buy it at a hugely reduced price. Since you don't know what the advequitguy bought his Mazdaspeed6 for relative to MSRP, you can't possibly have enough info to draw any useful conclusions.... and in the future captain2, I'd appreciate if you'd make an attempt to characterize what others have written accurately rather than twisting their words to make a point that they weren't.

mz6greyghost

If its performance you want, I'd have to go with the altima. Gotta love that VQ. But, if your primary concern is price, you'd almost deffinitly get the 6 either for less, or same with more options.

Have you driven the MS6? Trust me, the performance edge in this comparison clearly favors the MS6. A turbo 4-cylinder feeding AWD is my choice compared to a nose-heavy FWD. Don't get me wrong, the VQ is indeed a great engine, but the handling of the Altima leaves a little to be desired compared to a regular Mazda6, and a LOT with the MS6. The previous-gen has terrible torque-steer, which gets a little unnerving in a corner. The '07 has toned down the TS, but it still floats more on the highway and rolls more than the 6 in the twisties.

For a sedan with good performance, practicality and a broader appeal, the Altima is your choice. For a sedan that handles better than some sports cars, a powerful turbocharged engine with AWD, and still can seat 4 comfortably, pick the MS6.

BTW, it isn't difficult to get a MS6 Sport for $1500 less (or more) than the Altima...

captain2

what I said was that I did an appraisal of my car on Kelly Blue Book and found that the retail value of my mazda6 after owning it for 18 months and having 20k miles on it,
other than KBB instead of Edmund's, is there something wrong with the English language? The situation you claim, a car being worth more 'retail' (according to anybody) after 18 months and 20k just plain doesn't happen, and especially not to Mazda6s and even not to Camcords. Believe your KBB if you wish, they are wrong (as those numbers tend to be when any cars starts selling at big discounts) AND as indicated by that other poster that said that he had a great deal of difficulty getting any kind of reasonable value back on his Speed6.

kdshapiro

In my world the backseat of a MiniCooper has more room than an RX8. I guess different strokes for different folks.

kdshapiro

The MS6 is not in the same ballpark, size wise, as either the Forester or Legacy. It depends on what you are looking for in a vehicle. For a sedan that combines broad family practicality, with the best AWD system and great handling the Legacy turbo can't be beat.

kdshapiro

When you buy a used car you have to understand the market. There is a lot of room for negotiation on cars that are consistently heavily discounted or can easily be had for much less msrp or that take a huge depreciation hit the first year. KBB and ALG can help you understand the market, but it's a crap shoot. Buying a car with the intent to sell it in three years based on what you believe to be the future asking price can lead to some surprises.

mz6greyghost

The Forester is a crossover, so obviously, it's not in the same ball park as a sedan.

The OP also never asked about the Legacy GT, only about the MS6 against the Altima 3.5SE. The LGT is indeed a great-handling sedan, but you're right, it's bigger size-wise than the MS6, and IMO it constantly reminds you of this when you're driving as well.

captain2

it's a crap shoot. Buying a car with the intent to sell it in three years based on what you believe to be the future asking price can lead to some surprises.
all true, you have to wonder how these leasing cos. can project residual values (and therefore lease payment sizes) reliably when a particular car is just out. I just can't imagine that even Mazda/FoMoCo) would have had any idea a few years back, that the 6, for example, would be having to be sold at $6k+ discounts and thus, the residual values would be in the dumper. Guess it must get to be a function of Mazda/Ford (if they are the lessor) "taking it on the chin" much in the same way that they do when they discount it that much to begin with? Buying any brand of vehicle with a 'suspect' past in terms of future values is a helluva gamble but at least we do have a 'red flag' - that being that that it is being sold for any number significantly below invoice.

bhmr59

1) I don't want to sell the car. It's been fantastic.

2) Too bad practically no individual can sell their used car for retail, regardless of the make and model. :surprise:

kdshapiro

Absolutely, but the Legacy doesn't pretend to be a sporty car. It's a sporty crossover. I was responding to the prior comment about the Subaru, not the OP comment.

elroy5

Too bad practically no individual can sell their used car for retail, regardless of the make and model.

Kbb has "private party" sale value, which is closer to what you can get for the car. Retail value is what you can expect at a dealership, and is usually $1k-$2k more. I think the "condition" of the car, and how "in demand" the car is in your area, has more to do with what you can sell a car for than any number on kbb.

lilengineerboy

Absolutely, but the Legacy doesn't pretend to be a sporty car. It's a sporty crossover. I was responding to the prior comment about the Subaru, not the OP comment.

I think you might be confusing the Legacy with the Outback. I found the Legacy to be more sporting then the Honda, as sporting as the Altima, and less then the MS6 (although about on par with the comparable Mazda6). If you compare the Spec B with the MS6, things might be different but I haven't driven a recent Spec B.

plekto

In my world the backseat of a MiniCooper has more room than an RX8. I guess different strokes for different folks.
****
Actually, it's about as large as the CTS or other midsize sedans if you ignore the wasted middle seat area. (which most people just use as an armrest by putting down the center console when sitting back there). The RX-8 just made that a full-time armrest/storage area.

It's not too bad to actually sit in.

Plus, 95% of the time, people are driving alone or at most, with one kid in the rear. Even a Buick LaCrosse is miserable with three people in the rear. Needing a big car to commute in seems a bit of a waste to me. I'd rather get something sporty instead.

kdshapiro

"It's not too bad to actually sit in."

We talked about this. I don't really care what the specs say, (imo) it's absolutely claustrophic to sit in the back of an RX-8. Different strokes for different folks. One man's palace is another man's shack.

kdshapiro

I drove the Legacy, it's a very civilized vehicle with a bunch of creature comforts and the ability to pile stuff in the back and on the roof. With a turbo and 250hp it's plenty fast as well.

alpha01

As my dad owns a Legacy and I have significant experience with it, I think its an often overlooked gem in this segment. Great purchase prices, AWD confidence and enthusiastic handling, good reliability, fantastic interior design and materials, etc. Heck, the Legacy SE is equipped more or less the same as an Accord EX 4, but sells for less, plus you get AWD and better IIHS overall ratings. It just hasn't fuel economy or room....which leads to my next point...I'm surprised at the talk about size, Legacy is much closer in interior volume to the Mazda 6 than it is to the Camry-Accord-Altima-Sonata crowd.

kdshapiro

You are right, I mixed up my models. I was thinking of the LegBack model. :confuse To me Subaru has the most confusing model designations....don't know why. Somehow 3,5,6,7 seems to work very well, while Legacy Spec B means nothing.

benderofbows

Not a Mazda6, but a real-world, private-party scenario.

My 1998 Mazda 626 ES V6 had an original MSRP of $23,240 and an original invoice of $20,933. The car had the standard manual transmission, sunroof, leather, power seats, BOSE CD, ABS brakes, and alloy wheels.

In June of 2001, with 50k miles, the original owner attempted to sell it for $12,500 but had no interest. He sold it at his reduced asking price of $10,500. This represents approximately 50% depreciation in 4 years.

I drove the car 2 and 1/2 additional years and put another 45k miles on it, selling it in December 2003 for $5,700, or 30% of it's original value. That figure was just below KBB "excellent" private party value at that time.

dudleyr

"The MS6 is not in the same ballpark, size wise, as either the Forester or Legacy"

Not true. The Mazda6 is certainly bigger than the Forester and Legacy, but not by much.

Cu ft
Legacy 93
Forester 95
Mazda6 96
Legacy wagon (outback) 97
Mazda6 wagon 98

For perspective the Civic is 91 and the Accord is 103.

andres3

I certainly think that a 20 year history and track record is about 20 times more reliable than a 1 year track record and history.

When the Fusion's been out as long as the Accord, then it will have legendary status similar to the Honda, but only if it can maintain the first year performance longterm!

daedalus34r

I perceived the legacy [gt i sat in] to be notably smaller than the mazda 6. Im about 5-11, In the legacy I need to move the seat travel all the way back ... and then I can barely fit in the seat behind me... dont even ask about comfort. I dont understand how subaru can make such a small backseat ... dont they realize people come in much larger sizes than me? lol. Almost all of my friends are taller, some upto 6-5, putting them in an LGT would be worse than guantanamo bay lol.

I can easily sit behind myself in a mazda6, comfortable for like 2~3hr car ride easily. After that it gets iffy even in any car in this segment.

these are just my observations. If the legacy had a bigger back seat, it would be my #1 choice hands down [im lookin for manual transmission car]. Another problem with the legacy backseat is the C-pillar that forces you to contort your body to get in.

kdshapiro

Forget the Legacy, the 6 is not bigger than the Forester in terms of usable area. You cannot a good part of the 96 cubic feet in the Mazda 6, while you can use a 100% of Foresters' 95 cubic feet.

captain2

whule I certainly agree with your historical perspectives, the Duratechs have been around for well over 10 yrs. if you also include the original 2.5s. Say what you want about the 'competitiveness' of the current 3.0, but reliabilility and durability of it has gotten quite good. It's when Ford decides to (or is able to) replace the engine with something truly new that I'm guessing those teething problems would logically appear.
The 3.6 in the Saturn is a truly new engine that did fortunately spend some time under CTS hoods much like the Camry V6 had already spent some time under Avalon hoods (and others). As such, the jury must still be considered out on those particular engines especially relative to things like the current Honda V6, the 'ancient' Nissan VQ, and yes, even that 'ancient' DT.

moparbad

The Mazda6 has more legroom for the backseat than the Forester.

joe97

per model year change press release; otherwise, minor changes at best for 2008 Mazda6s

This means the new 6 will arrive as a 09MY (perhaps 08.5MY but likely 09).

moparbad

April-May 2008 arrival for the 2009 Mazda6 is the consensus opinion.

dudleyr

The Mazda6 wagon is a better comparison to the Forester and it has more space 98 vs 96 and also uses "100%" of the space.

joe97

Timing sounds about right for the US market. It will have its world debut staged at Frankfurt, and then either LA or Detroit as US debut.

alpha01

MZ 6 Wagon may not be a better comparison; it and the MZSpeed 6 are cancelled for '08.

zzzoom6

some new spy pics of the (2009?) new mazda6! I'm liking the interior but the outside looks a bit bloated...hard to tell though with all the cladding on it. one things for sure, I can't wait til september to see it when it's supposed to be unveiled at the Frankfurt Auto Show.

here's a link for some more pics and rumors about the new mazda6: link title

zzzoom6

Forget the Legacy, the 6 is not bigger than the Forester in terms of usable area. You cannot a good part of the 96 cubic feet in the Mazda 6, while you can use a 100% of Foresters' 95 cubic feet.

which is why it's nice to have an option to buy a hatchback or wagon (until it is discontinued next year) in the midsize sedan class. those who want to be able to have the convenience and comfort of four doors yet have the flexibility to haul some pretty large things can buy a Mazda6 in it's different styles so a buyer can get much more usefulness out of a midsize sedan.

I posted this pic before, but I am still very happy with what I can fit in the back of my hatchback. for those who don't recall, that's 3 highback office chairs with arm rests in the back of my Mazda6 hatchback...

kdshapiro

Hatchbacks are very useful, I had one myself. Some of the reasons I didn't go with the Accord is I like to haul stuff, lots of stuff. There is a lot of very useable space and the cabin is wide open. There is room for 5 big adults without any issue whatsoever. I also wanted AWD, and wanted the turbo. There are tradeoffs the XT premium doesn't have 5 gears and I like my windows framed. But the sunroof is awesome and the Forester has had a very good track record. That track record is reflected in the extended warranty which I bought which only cost a few hundred dollars extra.

zzzoom6

other than KBB instead of Edmund's, is there something wrong with the English language?

apparently there is something wrong with the english language for you, cuz you can't seem to quote or paraphrase people correctly...lol

The situation you claim, a car being worth more 'retail' (according to anybody) after 18 months and 20k just plain doesn't happen, and especially not to Mazda6s and even not to Camcords. Believe your KBB if you wish, they are wrong (as those numbers tend to be when any cars starts selling at big discounts) AND as indicated by that other poster that said that he had a great deal of difficulty getting any kind of reasonable value back on his Speed6.

Did I ever say that I thought I could sell my car for the suggested retail amount that is listed in Kelly Blue Book. No, I didn't. Once again, you are suggesting I said something that I never have. And if you were to read my original post, I listed the private party value for my Mazda6 which was $2200 off what I paid for it. Not bad for 18 months and 20k miles... but oh yeah, you don't like to paraphrase what other people write correctly, so I'll make it clear to everyone else.

Here's where I take issue with your disputing KBB's valuations of cars. On the one hand you bring up the advantages of certain cars by mentioning Edmund's True Cost of Ownership, which uses (among other things) used car values to determine the TCO. So in this situation you accept these used car values to draw conclusions about the cost of owning one of these cars. But in this instance, you are now saying that these used car valuations are junk and should be ignored... well captain2, you can't have it both ways. And as a side note, when I got preapproved to get a loan for a used car, guess what the bank used to determine the maximum amount that they would loan me for a certain car... you guessed it, Kelly Blue Book.

Regarding your mentioning that person with the Speed6 and his inability to get what he wanted from a dealer on trade in... First of all, when does a dealer ever give a fair trade in value at first... pretty much never. And how do you know how far into the negotiation he got? And how do you know how good of a negotiator he was anyway? Second, you have no idea what condition his car was in... was it damaged or abused? Third, you don't know what the dealer offered him. Maybe that guy has the idea that he should get all of his money back and anything less is unreasonable... of course to expect this would be absurd, but how do you know if this guys expectations are realistic or not? Fourthly, how do you know what he paid for his car in the first place? If you don't know that, how can you judge what "reasonable value back" is? And you have not tried to dispute the point in the three responses you've written to my first post that brought up the point that the more of a discount you get on a car, the less of a hit you will get when it comes to resale. Since you have not tried to dispute this, you must agree that you have no basis to judge whether the amount offered for his used car was realistic, fair, or reasonable.

zzzoom6

Yeah, I love Subies... the car I owned prior to the Mazda6 was a 1996 Legacy GT wagon. I have some very fond memories of driving it in Southern Cal on hwy 1 along the windy roads overlooking the pacific coast... that was a ton of fun (except for all the stuff in the back that was sliding from side to side...a half gallon of water must have sloshed out of my cooler lol).

Here in the NW there are tons of subies around and this demand kept me from getting the deal I wanted on a 05 legacy gt. Really an amazing car. A friend of mine just got an Outback (non turbo) and it's really nice. As a side note, my legacy had 160k miles on it, and I sold it for 5.4k and it was advertized for less than a day.

ilikecars23

Based on the latest spy shots of the Mazda6, it appears this car will be a real looker in the midsize segment, even in full camo the car looks great. With its larger portions i fully expect great things in the handling department also.

backy

It's kind of hard to tell with the cover-ups, but the lines of the new 6 remind me of the Altima.

zzzoom6

I'm thinking the spyshots of the next generation Mazda6 shares a lot of the lines along with headlights and taillights, of the lexus IS... which by the way, I don't think would be a bad thing.

jeffyscott

My 1998 Mazda 626 ES V6 had an original MSRP of $23,240 and an original invoice of $20,933. The car had the standard manual transmission, sunroof, leather, power seats, BOSE CD, ABS brakes, and alloy wheels.

In June of 2001, with 50k miles, the original owner attempted to sell it for $12,500 but had no interest. He sold it at his reduced asking price of $10,500. This represents approximately 50% depreciation in 4 years.

What did he actually pay for it when new? If it were discounted like the Mazda6, perhaps he paid $5000 (or more)below MSRP, as a number of Mazda6 buyers have. That would mean he would have paid around $18,000 and depreciation was about 42%. This was also a manual, which makes selling it a lot more difficult.