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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    The Accord redesign kept it one of the top competitors in the class, but I'd hardly call it "lightyears" ahead.

    I agree. While the Accord is competitive and does best most cars in this class in several ways the differences are pretty minor. Certainly not "lightyears".

    That's a pretty bold statement to make without backing it up in any way. I mean, was that statement purely media induced or do we have some hard facts to back it up?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855 dealer told me that I had to hold on to the loan for at least 3 months or else the rebate would be taken back! Oh well, my net was around $740 which still isn't so bad. I hate slimy dealers!

    Actually, your net might have been a bit higher than you think, since it sounded like you would have financed the car anyway. So your net rebate would be based on the difference in the interest cost between the MAC loan and the loan you replaced it with.

    All three places I shopped at told me it could be paid off right away. OTOH, I did get hosed on the rate...10.5% for me, with a credit score around 800. Not that it mattered much, given the length of time I had the loan :) .

    The dealer I bought from mentioned some places telling this 3 month story. The finance guy said no way would he do that because it is not worth getting in trouble with the state regulators.

    I have never seen another case where they gave a rebate only if you took a loan. It looks like they no longer are doing this with the it's $1500 instead of $2000, but no requirement to take a loan to get any of it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,229
    Magically it's a plus from the auto analyst that selling into fleets and rentals is going to be GOOD for the image.

    Actually Ford has been praised for selling Hybrid Escapes to fleets because it supposedly helps the image. The New York Taxi fleets using them comes to mind off the bat.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    But commercial fleets are totally different than rental fleets. Commercial fleet sales are longer term and don't result in a flood of used cars. They are also better maintained.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    We have enough midsize sedans to argue about discuss, we don't need to be dragging off-topic vehicles in here just to bicker over what fleet sales mean. ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I think the Fusion styling is unique, but bland. The taillights are ugly, the rest of the car is nondescript. Realizing however, that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I've heard this story also. And after two Fords...seems to be true.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Posts: 442
    re 2137
    Maybe some people have reached the point where they expect even more than excellent from everything. They won't tolerate even the slightest quirks,etc,regardless of what/where/why. A few years ago we couldn't even find a vehicle whose quality would match these of today. Almost every car in this category is miles ahead in the quality race, compared to say 10 yrs ago. Who knows why people respond the way they do to the various questionnaires ? I just don't think you can judge completely by any survey, you have to find out for yourself.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    now you think everybody should buy a Fusion because YOU think it looks better! As graduate says that kind of thing 100% subjective and probably should be the last reason to buy anything. IMO the new Altima followed by the Aura are the better looking cars in this class right now, but it really really doesn't matter at all.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    These are everyday consumers
    <<b>i>you don't know this and neither do I know that they weren't as kristie noted.
    Does it bother you BTW that both C&D and later, R&T were also being PAID by Ford as well, that Ford HAD to have them there to lend any sort of credibility to the result that they wanted, and that both publications came up with different results doing comparisons on their own? ENOUGH of this, believe what you want!
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Yes indeed "ENOUGH" - no more C&D Fusion comparo/ad/whatever, please.
  • thenebeanthenebean Posts: 1,124
    i'm sorry, but everyone has their preferences as to which car is best FOR THEM. but some people on both sides of the aisle seem to want to think that their car is the best and everyone should be driving one!

    honda, ford, nissan, toyota, GM...they all offer something different to consumers, and they are all fallible. you drive what you like, and others drive what they like.

    I like nissan - sporty, aggressive styling, fun to drive...not saying it is the best EVER - but the best FOR ME.

    like the subject line says...

    -thene :)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Yeah my only issue is the lack of standard ABS. Honda has it standard, I believe Toyota does too, and while not standard, its hard to find a Fusion w/o it, and its not a lot of $$.

    I would rather have ABS to avoid an accident than 27 airbags to explode once I am in one.
  • thenebeanthenebean Posts: 1,124
    believe it or not, when i was selling nissans, i'd have a decent amount of people ask for a car without ABS. either they didn't like it, or preferred not to have it, etc.

    i'm just saying...

    if i wanted ABS, then i'd find a car with ABS...its not that hard.

    but if i wanted a car without ABS, its harder to find those over the broad spectrum of cars...

    either way, the driving dynamics and styling of the nissans are more appealing to me than the other midsized sedans in this class. not that they are bad cars - im sure they are all fantastic! just not for me...

    -thene :)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that would be a deal! :D
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    I would rather have ABS to avoid an accident than 27 airbags to explode once I am in one.

    You're kidding, right? How is ABS going to prevent someone from hitting YOU? Especially from a side impact.

    ABS might allow you to avoid a small percentage of potential accidents whereas airbags will protect you in 100% of potential accidents.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,019
    Airbags protect you 100% of the time???? really?

    I'll remember that when you get T-boned by a 60,000 pound 70' long Semi-Truck while I use ABS to steer and slow down enough at the same time to avoid him!

    Let's see the airbags protect you there!
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    ABS might allow you to avoid a small percentage of potential accidents whereas airbags will protect you in 100% of potential accidents.

    Airbags protect you in 0% of potential crashes, they only help you in actual crashes. Further, ABS helps to prevent the need for airbags in everything except side impact, which relatively speaking is a small % of total accidents.
    One of the reasons the % of side impact accidents is increasing is because the number of rear end collisions is going down because of safety features like ABS.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    Let me rephrase that.

    ABS will allow you to avoid a small percentage of accidents that would otherwise be unavoidable without ABS.

    Airbags will provide some level of protection in almost all accidents.

    The statement was that ABS was better than airbags if you had to have one or the other.

    I say you need both.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,019
    Honda would never allow engine problems like Nissan did. They are in different leagues reliability and quality control wise. Only Toyota and Honda share the top rung league of reliability (which of course includes Acura and Lexus.
    Maintenance means little to nothing to a well built reliable and dependable car. My friend raped the hell out of his '94 Prism (Toyota Corrola with GEO emblem on the grill). He floored the little thing wherever he went. It was his first car, he was a teenage driver; you get the picture? He banged it up good, drove it like a madman, and maintained it lazily; he got it to 100,000 miles without spending a dime in repairs (other than maybe some bodywork for "accidents").

    I babied and pampered my '95 Neon, oil changes every 3K miles, all the maintenance under the severe schedule recommendations. I had to spend around 5,000 dollars keeping it running; and that includes getting rid of it at 65,000 miles. I can only imagine it might have taken the next owner at least another $10,000 dollars to get that car to 100K miles.

    If a car can't be driven agressively, (abused as you say) and still hold up, then it is a piece of junk. Plain and simple. Any high quality vehicle (like my 2003 Honda) can be driven as hard as you want w/o worry of any "problems," granted, you should at least follow a reasonable maintenance schedule if your going to be driving it hard.

    Reliability and dependability ratings should not only be based on "best case scenario" maintenance and BABYING it type driving, but also "minimum maintenance" and VERY AGGRESIVE type driving. That is what matters, that is what counts, and that is the true test.

    Either way, there is no reason to believe that not maintaining vehicles (because low income people might not do it) would affect reliablity rankings in a way that would make them unreliable data. All car brands and all car models would be equally mis-maintained over a large sample size. Also, Mercedes/Chrysler have reached the bottom of the pit in reliability, and last I checked low income people don't buy them. Honda's and Toyota's are fairly economical, and they are at the top......

    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I think the Fusion styling is unique, but bland.

    Wow, really. I don't care for the styling myself, but bland??? The excessive chrome grill is certainly not bland. I'm pretty sure if you look up the definition of that word, there is a picture of the current Accord there :P ;) .

    The best looking of these cars is clearly the Mazda6 :D ;) . This is proven by Toyota's feeble attempt to copy some of its appearance features into the new Camry.

    The Altima is not appealing to me at all. The only thing the new design accomplishes is to make the previous version look not so bad. Maybe if they did something to make the rear end not look so "heavy"...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    As for the Fusion making the Accord and Camry look "frumpy", park the Fusion next to an Aura, or Altima, or even the old Mazda6, and suddenly the Fusion looks pretty frumpy, in my eyes.

    I saw an Aura on the road today and I was reminded that it is a very slick looking car, especially the rear 3/4 view. Maybe because there is actually some sheet metal on the car, vs. all tailights and headlamps as on the Altima. ;) The Mazda6 is an old design now but I think it's worn well, especially the Special Value Edition available now with minimal ground effects, big alloys, and blacked-out lamps.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I say you need both.

    Oh if I get both by all means bring on the balloons to keep my head out of the grill of an SUV driven by someone the phone as they mow through a red light.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    The truth is, according to the data from JD Powers AND Consumer Reports, that the difference between cars in this category over a five year period is minimal, and the chances are that the problem that does occur is going to be minor which does not require immediate and emergency attention. So any talk about how much more reliable a certain car is without any verifiable statistics is baseless or at least anecdotal. Because the data that really does exist shows that the differences in reliability between cars in this class is quite small, and would probably surprise most buyers.

    I do understand your reluctance to trust a certain brand because of personal expererience... but working in electronics retail showed me that EVERY manufacturerer has problems so if every one of those customers with a bad experience means that brand was bad, well there would be no brands to buy. I will pay attention to blogs and forums to get a gauge of what areas are problematic, but I will always give more weight to studies that gather information from thousands of sources and not just one.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,019
    Furthermore, Ford, GM, and all other mfrs replace faulty parts under warranty. Why point out that Honda did too? It's not like they did anything any other mfr would have done.

    Incorrect!!!! You couldn't be more wrong. Dodge never offered to ante up for fixing my early death faulty tranny in my Dodge. Chrysler didn't come to the rescue either. In fact, when I asked the Dodge dealer why I had to keep coming back and why the car kept breaking down, the reply was, "cars just breakdown, parts just break down." So I was left out in the cold by Chrysler/Dodge. I will never buy an American vehicle again because of THAT tranny failure. The same thing happened to me again in my V6 Accord from 2003, but Honda stepped up and fixed it AFTER warranty technically expired. Not only did they pay to fix it, but they paid for the rental, ordered the new tranny assembly overnight shipping, and got me back on the road on Wednesday after taking the car in on Monday morning. I paid nothing. For the Dodge, I paid about $1,200 to fix it. I will buy a Honda again if I feel like it. I will never ever until hell freezes over and pigs fly on the same day buy a Chrysler made product.

    Honda stands behind their products, I have serious doubts about the Big 3. Heck, they might not even exist in 4 years when your tranny fails in that Ford, GM, or Chrysler product, what then, no one to go to for Warranty repairs! Think about that! They will go out of business and screw all of their customers in a heartbeat.

    Also, it didn't hurt that the Tranny issue was the ONLY mechanical issue in my Honda, meanwhile the Dodge had 100 problems mechanically, literally.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 9,019
    The 2003 Accord Coupe offerred me 240 HP with 30 MPG on the highway (EPA rating). It offered traction control, ABS, power driver's seat, built-in alarm/security system, 6 CD changer, and I got it all for 25K out the door.

    What other vehicle could I have purchased THAT MEETS or exceeds, get that... MEETS or EXCEEDS (not comes close in some area or other) in November of 2002?

    21/30 mpg, 240 HP, very good handling and interior fit and finish, excellent build quality.
    Toy '16 Audi TTS quattro AWD, Commuter '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6 Turbo FWD, Wife's '17 VW Golf All-Track SE 4-Motion AWD
  • thenebeanthenebean Posts: 1,124
    all of that is nice - but its not "lightyears" ahead of the other sedans available at that time...

    if that's what you consider "lightyears" though...i don't know what to tell ya...

    -thene :)
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    Oh Really?

    -You are aware that Honda's last gen. 3.5 engine, used in my neighbors Odyssey (and the reworked one is in my Pilot) was removed from the van as oil was not reaching a part of the engine. It was an engineering issue and req'd redesign. This was not publicized because Honda found the issue before it was reported. It req'd removing 22,000 Odyssey engines and shipping them for the work.

    -You are aware the last generation Acura MDX had transmission failure issues and so many brake failures that they faced recalls to change the master cylinder. The Civic has also had serious brake issues after 50,000 miles

    -You are aware that this generations Accord has had hundreds of thousands of center stack cluster failures (stereo units only).

    Consumers are seriously misled if they believe that a car manufacturer is bulletproof and their models are free from defect in engineering or design. Even the best manufacturers deal with recalls as they have to deal with part makers they outsource to. They also sometimes make mistakes in the engineering process.

    This is a fact: the level of quality between the best and worst manufacturer today is so small, in defects per 100 vehicles, that the over publication of 'quality' being owned by a few manufacturers is ridiculous. Do most people realize that we are talking about 1 problem (and that problem could be a seatbelt handle as in the Hyundai Sonata) per 100 vehicles between the best and worst. Yet JDPower is making millions publicizing this very subjective data. Fact is that Kia's are just about the same as Lexus's. If you dispute this simply study the data.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Maybe the issue then isn't so much the product, but how the manufacturer stands behind the product.

    In all the examples I've seen, Toyota and Honda stepped up warranties and did what was in their power to minimize the inconvenience to the customer. It was almost like they were ashamed or embarrassed about it.

    I am sure others can come up with examples of other manufacturers not taking this route.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    Maybe the issue then isn't so much the product, but how the manufacturer stands behind the product.

    A very keen observation.
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