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Is a little talk about the M3 truly off topic? It is a 3 series and an E46. I will try to minimize it. Pat drop me a line if you want me to cool it.
katkison: Thanks for the info. Sounds like the M can be had as quickly as a built to order 330.
jinglejill: I have been relatively unimpressed with the Houston dealers and like katkison I loathe the drive up to BMW North although I have heard some positive things about them. My E36 325 is from John Roberts in Austin.
soverypoor: I am not really sure what optionality means. What a story about your wife and the M roadster. I can't blame her though. I think it is pretty cool that she craves performance like you. My wife could care less about these kind of things. She doesn't really understand my constant rumination about the BMW, but she puts up with it. I may end up putting my purchase off for a while so that I can go with the M3 (although this changes daily as I read the debate on the board). The only benefit financially from buying the higher performance car is that it may have greater longevity than the 330. In 9 years when everyone's 2012 325i has 350HP and goes 0-60 in 5.3 seconds a 2003 M3 might still be able to keep up and satisfy the owner. What does everyone think? Is this reasonable? In my mind a reasonable lifetime for a new 330 might be 8 years, but I justify the M3 with a possible 10 year life.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
As for wheels/tires, any suggestions on the best place to get them? I really like the clean look of the standard 5-spoke wheels that come with with 325Ci (Style 43), and would rather get them than something aftermarket.
Personally, unless you race it, I don't think you'll outgrow a 2002 330i in terms of performance satisfaction. And, the idea that you would EVER outgrow a 2002 M3 is pretty far fetched.
I'm a fan of more horsepower,...to a point. I think the technology to make engines more powerful is growing far faster than the ability of the average driver to control, utilize, and appreciate that power. A 1984 Corvette had only 190 base HP. When I drove one in 1984, I felt like it was the fastest thing on the road. My '99 Maxima has 190 HP in a nearly 10 year old design, and I still think the engine power is more than adequate. (I'm trading it because it's boring, not because it under-performs).
I didn't mean to rant, its your decision. If your heart wants an M3, you shouldn't have to justify it with tortured logic about performance longevity.
I'd see if the dealer will sell you those standard wheels if you like them, and make an even trade (he just might). He'll probably have to order them, though - I doubt he'll just have a set sitting around.
Incidentally, the 1999 and 2000 323i SP came with only 16" wheels. And nobody complained about performance. I say this because like HP, I think wheel size has gotten grossly out of proportion to the level of performance that most drivers can appreciate.
Anyone going to the CCA driving school at the Glen in upstate New York this month?
Thanks
I was supposed to, but we recently learned that my kids go back to school on the 30th (that's a Friday with Monday being a holiday... go figure!) and my wife thought if I was taking their last two days of summer vacation off it would be better to spend the time with them. So it looks like I'm gonna be going horseback riding in the Pocono's instead. I haven't been on a horse in about 20 years... hopefully they're air conditioned these days. :-)
On a different subject, I just got back from driving around the Colorado rockies. All I could think of was how much fun the drive from Leadville to Aspen would have been in an E46. It would have been the ultimate test drive. Wasn't quite as much fun in a rental Hyundai Sonata. It wasn't too bad, until it started losing power and the Check Engine light came on halfway up Vail Pass on I-70. The light went out on its own later in the drive and everything seemed fine after that. I was even a nice guy and checked the oil every morning. I didn't want to be stranded. Good thing it has a nice long warranty. The poor guy that buys it from Hertz is going to need it.
I went to sign up this morning but I was disappointed to find out that it's sold out. I signed up for the NHIS Sept. 6 school instead. If you have not yet cancelled your registration, I'll be happy to buy it from you.
The MB CLK-Class (esp. cabriolets) is somewhat of a limited production car compared to the BMW 330CiC. The CLK (esp. cabriolets) have been in high demand (many dealers still have wait lists) since their introduction. I know the CLK sold at and above MSRP for a while. I've heard the launch of the new CLK was delayed due to the fact that the factory had so many orders to fulfill for the current CLK Cabriolet. High demand/low(er) volume vehicles like the CLK Cabriolet will command a premium on the used car market. BMWs actually hold their value quite well. If you're so concerned with resale value, have you considered the option of leasing?
As far as the X5 vs. the ML320...enough said:)
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
HP: 240, Torque: 236, 0-60: 5.6
2001 330 HP: 225, Torque: 214, 0-60: 5.9sec
Of course, the M3 was much lighter
Anyway, just an information bit for the board and leenelsonmd
(All values according to Edmunds)
-Colin
Well, I'll ask her if you can go too, but my wife is kinda tight with a buck so I think I'll be lucky if she agrees to send even me. LOL!
You are right about justification and rationalizations. I think this applies to any purchase, including the decision about options on the 3 series. If you crave the option and can afford it then go for it. You will be happier in the end. I have to agree that it is unlikely I would ever develop a stale relationship with a 330.
HP: IMO we are reaching the wall on performance until a major paradigm shift occurs in transportation -- like computer controlled vehicles or the like. What is the difference in a street vehicle that goes 60mph in 6 seconds versus 5 seconds or even 4? Owning a Porsche GT2 is like window shopping without any money. You can almost never take advantage of its ability. I do not want to say that there is no advantage in being a little quicker, but does it really make that much difference? Each tenth of a second that you shave off below 5.5 seconds is going to cost you a fair amount of money and it is unlikely that the average driver like me will ever really appreciate it.
I was concerned with the rear wheel drive and the Sport tires. I guess I will just have to purchase all season tires for the winter. We'll see! What is the online auction that you were mentioning? $500 doesn't see too bad. I checked prices around my area and it was right around $7-800 dollars. My winters aren't really bad, but, you never know around here. I live in Central lower Michigan.
-Chris
-Colin
About rationalization: I only use it to assuage the wife. And boy does it take alot of it! Deep down I know that I could function with a car that costs $10,000 less. I am buying my Bimmer because I want it. I've always wanted it, and unless I buy it, I always will want it. It's cool. Its fun. And, everybody will care about it. The truth will set you freeeeeee!!!
Peachie: Here we go again - more hardcore advice for the average driver. While snow tires are better in deep snow than all-seasons, the all seasons will be better (looks, handling, noise, ride) every single day of winter that you don't have to drive in deep or packed-down snow, which as your e-mail suggests, is almost every day. Afterall, you don't live in Maine.
I'll bet 90% of the cars where you live drive on all-seasons. Based on where you live, get the all-seasons, don't sweat it, and stay home on the two days a year that you get deep snow - afterall you don't want to be out those days anyway - somebody going downhill in an SUV might slide into you!
And, get some BMW wheels to go with them. Do you really want to spoil the look of your Bimmer for 6 months a year with non-BMW wheels?
you call it "hardcore" advice, I call it rational thought.
wheel styling is subjective. you can get OE wheels or aftermarket wheels that will look fine or like crap to different people-- I don't particularly care for the current Sport wheel myself for example.
but I totally disagree with your logic about all season tires! winter tires will perform just fine for normal driving when the roads are clear of snow and ice. most of them will lay down & die when you drive hard on dry road, but that's true of an all-season as well when you compare to a proper summer tire. the point Chris and I were trying to make is that if you bother to have second wheels & tires for winter, you would be AMAZED at the different winter tires make over all-seasons; even dry-road biased models like a Bridgestone LM22 will stomp any all-season. Specialty tires like a Nokian Hakka 1 drive well enough in the dry and make a huge difference in the vehicle's usability and driver confidence in icy and deep snow conditions.
But nevermind, go back to writing off everything I say as "extreme". Stay with the flock...
-Colin
If you are going to swap tires anyway, you might as well get the ones that are most appropriate for the season, i.e. winter tires for the ice, sleet, rain, snow, slush and lower temperatures.
Get the alloy wheels for looks if you need to but the winter tires are great for getting around - I got them 'cause I didn't want to be stranded anywhere.
I was wondering if anyone knew whether it would be worth waiting for the 2003 or just buy the 2002 now? Is there any design changes in the 2003?
When will the 2003's be available?
Wondering in New England.
Jeff
If this is not your first year ever behind a steering wheel, and if, you have not moved to a different geographic area since last winter, then:
Continue doing exactly what you have done in the past.
A. If your previous car was able to handle winter in your geographic area using all season tires, then use all season tires in the bimmer.
B. If your previous car required snow tires to be able to survive the winter, then, you will need winter tires in the Bimmer as well.
Although RWD, the DSC and TC will keep you secure on the road if you don't abuse it.
vkwheels: My first attempts at cleaning and protecting the surface of my black car was with wax (Meguiars). I did the whole process - glaze, polish, whatever was recommended bu the manufacturer.
After several hours of elbow grease - Meguiar's left the car looking and feeling like a well oiled metal sheet - which attracted a fine layer of dust that stuck to the surface. Maybe I used too much, and it was too hot that week, but overall I was not pleased with the results of all that effort.
So I bit the bullet and ordered Zaino. Did that whole process over a long weekend. It took forever between applications, but I have to say, the consequent applications got easier and quicker. (There's also an accelerator now so there is no waiting between applications anymore) Results: the car is not sticky at all. So dust doesn't stick to the surface. Tar, bug guts, road salt and grime wash off easily without much scrubbing. The car has a deep glossy shine that stays till it rains.
Shipo recommends Klasse which is also a polymer. It is not as time consuming as Zaino is initialy. I would probably switch to Klasse when my Zaino is finished, but I'll probably have a new car by then - a little goes a long way with this stuff.
So my take on polymer v/s wax: polymer all the way - much less elbow grease required for a deep glossy shine.
Maybe. Real winter tires transformed my ex-wife's Miata from a 9 month vehicle into something we wouldn't be afraid to use any day there wasn't >6" snow on the ground. That's rare around me, ice is far more common and it handled that with aplomb.
Electronic aids can't have near the effect that proper tires do. I think if you've never tried winter tires you should at some point just to see what you're missing. It's not that you can't "survive" without them.
-Colin
"Automatic and FWD are for wimps, Lexus lovers, and people who don't know how to drive. Everybody should have RWD, the stiffest suspension offered, and HP tires - and if you live where it snows, get Blizzaks on steel rims from Tire Rack for winter because it doesn't matter what the car looks or rides like - ITS THE 6 MONTHS OF PURE PERFORMANCE THAT COUNTS, STUPID."
When you get relatively little snow and ice, why not just "survive" on those few days a year when that happens, and have a better performing (and looking) tire every other day of winter? My brother has Blizzaks (SP?) on his 323 SP. I've driven it with the Blizzaks, and you can't tell me they don't compromise handling and ride noise from all seasons (I'm talking good performance all-seasons, not "Camry tires"). Then again, for somebody who wants to drive on HP Summer tires, those qualities might not be important.
I just can't understand how guys who are used to the performance of summer HP tires can live with SO MUCH compromise (of dedicated snows) for nearly half the year? And if there "isn't that much performance loss with snows", then imagine how much less there would be with a good set of all-seasons in winter.
Finally, if you live where there is the potential for deep snow 7-8 months a year(Buffalo, Maine, Denver, etc.), of course, get snow tires. But, that said, if I lived in that climate, I'd have AWD, and would seriously question whether a BMW was the right car for my real world lifestyle.
well, of course the blizzaks don't perform like the pole positions... that's not the point... the point is, is that the blizzaks perform virtually as well on the dry stuff, and blow the a/s away in the mucky stuff... keep in mind also that winter tires aren't just winter tires because they handle snow... the compound they are made of is made to work better at lower temperatures... so when it's cold (and i believe peachy is from michigan? i KNOW it gets cold there, and i'd bet they get as much snow as maine) the winter tires have that advantages over the a/s as well... so the argument of "the a/s are better on the dry roads you drive on 90% of the time in the winter, so get those" doesn't hold water...
i drove my 3er 140 miles every day for work for 2 winters... the blizzaks never let me down... yea, they make noise... guess what? so do the pp's... c'est la vie...
as far as the "better looking" argument... my response to that remains the same... would you rather stay on the road, or would you rather have the tow truck guy complement you on your nice wheels/tires as he pulls you out of the ditch?
-Chris
ps. div - those tars ain't worn out yet? sheesh... why don't you autocross that thing 2 or 3 times and finish them off????
Maybe we should start the Fernando Bimmer Wearers Club-FBWC. Our motto: "It is better to look good than to drive good..."
As far as performance, I feel the dry performance is more than made up for by the mucky performance. In other words, you'll have more fun in the snow because you can drive more aggressively and with more control.
As for rims, I'm not going to spend $300 for BMW rims when they're going to see tons of salt and sliding into a curb could trash them. I may upgrade to something better than steel rims, but I'm not that concerned with looks during the winter.
It's pretty easy to justify winter tires since one insurance claim pays for them. I'm amazed at how many people have AWD/4WD without buying winter tires. What's the purpose of better acceleration in slippery conditions when you can't stop or maneuver any better? More auto marketing I guess :-)
-murray
Consider the alternative: using HP tires for summer and All-Seasons in winter: does this really make any sense? No.
The best performance tire is a function of the environment its going to be driven in. The major environmental factors are temperature and water (rain, snow or ice). The former strongly influences the tire's compound chemistry and the type & amount of the latter influences the tread design.
For example, the true ultimate summer dry tire is a slick, but even if they were legal, very few of us would street such a car, because their horrible drop-off in performance in the rain.
There's really only two questions. The first if if you want a one set of "Jack of All Trades (and Master of None)" tires, or if you're willing to inventory multiple tire sets and thus, be more able to optimize them for different conditions.
The second part is what is it that you're going to optimize for. This can either be towards something, or AWAY from something (such as minimized weaknesses). For example, for a winter tire, you can bias towards optimizing its performance under cold-but-dry conditions, or you can take the "least vulnerable" approach and look towards making sure you don't have a very bad tire for the worst case conditions.
Personally, my choice for a winter tire is whatever performs best under what mschukar calls "Mucky conditions".
FWIW, awhile back, I had a car that I had two sets of tires set up for. The one set was winter snows. The other were summer HP rains. The basis of the seemingly odd summer tire choice was because on dry summer days, I'd drive an entirely different car. YMMV.
-hh
PS: Finally started to get some photo's from my Germany trip from last month scanned in. Here's Neuschwanstein, sized to be a nice Desktop Wallpaper; Enjoy.
If you lived in city X for the past 5 years, and you required snow tires to survive the winter, THEN, get snow tires for your BMW.
If you have survived winter on any previous car in the SAME city using all season tires, THEN all season tires is all you need.
Summer tires, as the name implies, are not designed for snow, and I would not drive a car with summer tires even with a 1/4 inch of snow on the ground.
Finally, if this is your first car, or you just completed drivers school, or you just moved from Florida to Michigan, then, the above does not apply.
To me, it's not about whether I can get by or not, but rather am I and my family safer with winter tires? The answer, I believe, is a definate YES. As I said before, one deductable payment pays for them and 2 hours a year to change them. For Wisconsin, it's a no brainer even though I could "survive" with all seasons.
OTOH, everyone can "survive" the summer months with all seasons, so why would anyone have summer tires, according to your logic?
-murray
huntzinger - did you hike up past the bridge to get that photo?
Now, waiting, waiting, waiting for my wagon.
325xit
5-spd
Steel blue with natural brown interior
SP/PP/CWP/HK/Xenon/Nav
So very far away...
Is anybody going to be safer in theory driving with winter tires if it snows in the area? Yes, I agree with you.
Do you need snow tires? well, where I live, you can get away with all seasons