Toyota Highlander vs GMC Envoy

jblaze13 · October 2001

That's what I've said several times already. You misqoute me as well. I never said the Highlander is of better construction than the Envoy. I SAID the Highlander is "far more likely" but "only time will tell". I ALSO SAID of GM processes "in the past" and "who knows what the future of GM quality holds". Because as an IE I KNOW that processes change. Furthermore, I was sharing my opinion on the diferences between Japanese and Amercian automaking processes which have a direct affect on the quality of their products. As I suspected, you didn't read my statements. I'm usually a very low key person until someone tries to tell me about something I know. Ironically, I've clearly agreed with what you state is your view but it doesn't seem so because you clearly didn't read what I stated. Oh well.

heatwave3 · October 2001

jblaze13: actually I never quoted you. If I did I would clearly use quotations. The theme of your posts was clearly your belief that the HL is of higher quality in manufacturing than the Envoy.

You supplied no data to support your view therefore I simply repositioned your comments as opinions not facts. In fact, given the safety recalls on the Highlander brakes and the Envoy having received best new SUV of the year by several magazines, there is a good case to suggest your opinion is not only unsupported but wrong.

jblaze13 · October 2001

You changed what I said to fit a point you were trying to make. In case you haven't noticed the Highlander has received several accolades from many magazines as well. Big deal. What you also failed to mention is the GM triplets being recalled for suspension problems on top of the recalls already mentioned. There was only one recall on the Highlander. I'll let you count up the recalls on the Envoy. My comments are about the quality of the two vehicles. Quote a magazine that even suggests the Envoy is of higher quality than the Highlander. In fact, most of the write-ups on the Highlander mention the fact that it is built on the same highly reliable platform as the Camry. Suggesting that these publications believe the Highlander will prove to be reliable as well. Even Edmunds road test says "This Toyota's impeccable build quality became readily apparent...". Edmunds review of the Envoy states "the cabin was fraught with various rattles and squeaks from the dash and empty cargo area, gap tolerance variances abounded...". It seems that I'm not the only one who believes in Toyota quality and that the Envoy has to prove it is up to par. The very source that is allowing us to communicate with each other agrees with my view of the quality of these vehicles. THERE'S YOUR DARN SUPPORT!!! WHERE'S YOUR SUPPORT (heatwave3 & ibthedog)???

lbthedog · October 2001

That's it. One recall of approximately 6k of the triplets. You're trying to lump the old model in with the new.

P.S care to know how many actually had a problem? 3, all caught at the dealership before delivery.

spfotey · October 2001

enuf on the cat fight -- let's move on.

I would like some feedback on those who have compared these two fine vehicles. Personally, i've never bot a GM vehice but i am willing to consider a change fi they are really that good. The highlander turns me off because i promised my kids that we would have AC in the rear ((we live in arizona)).

lbthedog · October 2001

But there is a third model in the mix. Not that you can get one yet but if you care for a bit more room, the stretch Envoy is only a couple months away. You will see a bit of a difference in options between the TrailBlazer / Envoy this time around and if you so desire, the Gen 3 V-8 will be an option. Not going to say the triplets introduction was perfect but since then, there have been a few changes, mostly software related, and all things considered, they are fine vehicles that are earning a good reputation quickly.

hsvillage · October 2001

I believe these forums are a good source of information for people,such as me,to learn about the many vehicles on the market today.I read a number of posts and eventually bought a 2001 Highlander.I will not defend my decision- since I am the one that signed the check.I respect everyones choice to buy whatever they want because I dont have to pay for it or put up with the consequences, but I will relay some facts.In the Oct,2001 edition of Consumers Reports,page 53,in Recommendations "If your looking for a mid-sized SUV,the refined and well thought out Toyota Highlander is an excellent choice.It slightly outscored its costlier cousin,the Lexus RX-300.The smooth powertrain provides quick acceleration,normal handling is sound and responsive,and the ride is comfortable and quiet.Access is easy...etc".On the same page is a table listing 12 SUVs/Station Wagons,in decending order of overall performance.The HL is 3rd and the Envoy is 12th.The two cars rated ahead of the HL are the Audi A6 & the VW Passant.They were rated ahead of the HL for emergency handling.This was resonable since cars have a lower center of gravity than SUVs.The HL was noted for its reliabilty-much better than average.In the Sept,2001 issue of CR page 55 there is areport on the GMC Envoy.CR gives good marks for ride,quiet interior,acceleration and access.There is also a comment on the towing capacity-6100lbs highest in its class.The Envoy was not rated on reliability since its a new design.The HL is a recommended SUV,based on comparison to the other vehicles in the test including the Envoy.The Envoy is not recommended for the same reason.I also noted the HL has a larger cargo volume-41.5cf v 39cf.I consider Consumer Reports one of the few unbiased,reliable sources when buying a car.I would also refer you to www.auto.com/industry/cowger10_20010810,it is an article by Jeffery McCracken of the Detroit Free Press titled TOYOTA GETS GM CREDIT.It quotes Gary L.Cowger GM group VP for manufacturing "The roots of our improvement is the Toyota Production System.We learned from them.We've got to give credit where credid is due."This is quite a statement from a GM VP but it takes a big man to give others credit.Like I wrote I wont defend my choice but I consider the Highlander the best engineered,best built, most reliable mid-size SUV on the U.S. market today.Obviously others do to.

stever · October 2001

On that note, what are the most important factors in your car-buying decisions? The Chicago Tribune is looking for a ranking of concerns such as safety, price, monthly payment, styling, quality, etc.

Please send your response to our media person, Jeannine, at jfallon@edmunds.com. Thanks!

Steve
Host
Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

heatwave3 · October 2001

hsvillage: thanks for the data based response. All good information and valid for making a buying decision. I used to be a long standing subscriber of Consumer Reports but have found their approach to vehicles and overall subject matter covered in their magazine far from unbiased and discontinued my subscription some years ago.

When they started running articles on pharmaceutical benefits and why abortion should be supported, they went was over the top in my book for a "consumer" magazine.

Once they moved to their rollover tests with outriggers without full disclosure of the incident of rollover in the real world, readily available in insurance data, they became nothing more than a mouthpiece for the left wing and far from providing an independent view of vehicles.

I have come to trust publications like Popular Mechanics, Motor Trends and Car & Driver (even with their ads) far more than Consumer Reports. Any magazine that has resorted to 30 sec sensational sound and video bites prepared for the evening news in order to generate news stand sales is worse than a publication accepting good old fashioned advertising...which is the American way in my book (pun intended).

Are you aware of any Car Magazine that has chosen the HL over the Envoy in a comparison? Even most car mags comparing American brands to European or Japanese cars have chosen the non-American vehicle, however the Envoy has received numerous accolades over its competition.

jblaze13 · October 2001

hsvillage, thanks for the information. That further backs most of the things I've said and supported on this topic. I'd consider Edmunds a good source as well. The addition of the "real" center console and the rear center armrest should make the Highlander even better for 2002.

brad_22 · October 2001

"Once they moved to their rollover tests with outriggers without full disclosure of the

incident of rollover in the real world, readily available in insurance data, they became

nothing more than a mouthpiece for the left wing and far from providing an independent view of vehicles.

I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that CR is a left wing publication. Are you next going to tell us that the liberals and in cahoots with Consumer Reports to hype a certain SUV over another? Take a step back and think about what you're saying. Why does it seem like every source of information that disagrees with your POV becomes a "left-wing conspiracy"?

In any case, even though I enjoy reading through Motor Trend, take their recommendations with a grain of salt.

http://www.autoextremist.com/archives/991012/index.shtml

heatwave3 · October 2001

brad22: As I stated, IMO Consumer Reports has become a Left Wing rag. I was a subscriber for over 20 years and I agreed and disagreed with many comparisons they published. It was data-based and while I questioned some of their methodologies they appeared at least honest in their approach.

Over the past 3-4 years the editors became very liberal in their opinions, which in my view had no place in a Consumer Magazine. When those opinions spilled over into subjects like abortion and asking their subscribers to write letters to elected officials in support of Clinton's Social medicine experiment, it became too much to bear. Many others discontinued their subscription as their left wing editors that took over carried the rag over the top.

In order to stimulate newstand sales they went big time in their efforts to destroy companies and products without full disclosure and clearly with a sensational bent to their reporting in order to get on the evening news.

Why haven't they shared any of the real world rollover insurance data as a comparison to their experiments? I'll tell you why...because it would clearly show the methodology is invalid to determining risk the the suv owner. The fact that a vehicle with a higher CoG has a greater risk of rollover than one with a lower CoG is evident to any 8th grade student of physics. That doesn't make it a relevant risk in the real world if the incidence of the event is insignificant.

But this is all just my opinion and has nothing to do with the fact that their view is different from mine. Its all in the honesty of their motivations which I have come to find very suspect if not fraudalent.

brad_22 · October 2001

"Its all in the honesty of their motivations which I have come to find very suspect if not fraudalent."

Heatwave,
Even if what you say is true, I still don't see the correlation between CR editorials and the actual vehicle tests and comparisons. I've referred to Consumer Reports numerous times, and, like you, sometimes disagreed with their assessments. But from my experience I find them to be a highly-knowledgeable and honest source of information. The idea of CR promoting a Toyota vehicle over a GMC one for political reasons is a bit hard to swallow. CR's review should carry the same weight as any other magazine or source out there (especially Motor Trend's).

Back to the main issue....
I think it comes down to this - the Highlander is a car/SUV hybrid that offers a smooth ride with ample power and plenty of storage. Toyota reliability and quality is a plus. Many rave reviews. If you don't plan on boulder-bashing or towing a yacht, this vehicle might be for you.

The Envoy has the advantage of strong towing capacity and being more capable off-road (no stats on this, but I'm assuming the mags didn't make it up).

heatwave3 · October 2001

brad22: your post above was on the mark. Both vehicles appear to be good vehicles. I would recommend avoiding broadly painting the Envoy with the quality issues of GM's past, just as I would avoid broadly painting the Toyota with the quality successes of their past, since both are new models.

Thanks for listening to me rant on the issue of Consumer Report. Just P.O.ed about the fact that at one time it was one of my favorite mags and now because of their occasional inappropriate leftist articles I find reading the entire publication intolerable. Just my issue to deal with.

hsvillage · October 2001

First of all I dont have an ax to grind with either GM or Ford.I believe the improvement in American cars is because of the competition of foreign car companies.Mr Cowger said it better than I could, "The roots of our (GM) improvements is the Toyota Production System".Also I thought we were discussing the merits of two SUVs not the political ideology of a consumer magazine.I took your post to heart and looked thru the back issues of Consumers Reports, but I could find no reference to "abortion" or "Clinton's social medical experiment".Perhaps you could cite your references for these statements.-Liberal-"Tolerant of the ideas or behavoir of others".The American Heritage Dictionary p753.

ronsexton · October 2001

Definitely! I can't believe some of the stuff they say in their assesment/opinion of cars. They seem biased in their opinions. On the other hand Edmunds it one of the best seemingly unbiased resources around and we are lucky to have it. The other car mags are iffy sometimes but provide a lot more information so you can decided more for yourself and way better than CR.

xcarnut · October 2001

IMO - hsvillage did the best job of convincing which of the two car companies does actually have a better quality control manufacturing. Its very clear Toyota is far ahead of GM when it comes to manufacturing and quality control to bring forth a better product. The GM VP said it to the auto trade publication how GM has learned from Toyota to improve the quality. What better support does one need to see which of the 2 companies are ahead in manufacturing and quality control.
To those nay sayers about the Toyota quality, remember why NUMMI was born ?
GM wanted to learn from Toyota how to build a quality, reliable, inexpenisve fuel efficient cars.
Also, anyone wonder why in backroads of Australia and Africa people use Toyota LandCruisers ? Its PROVEN RELIABILITY AND QUALITY.

robz3 · October 2001

I still would buy a Envoy over a Highlander. The Envoy has better comfort and seems stronger than Highlander.

If Toyota would build a SUV that I liked then I would buy from them. Maybe Toyota designers should get back to the drawing boards.

lbthedog · October 2001

But who sells the most vehicles in Australia?

GM. Sure wish we could buy Holdens over here, no one in their right mind would buy anything else.

heatwave3 · October 2001

hsvillage: Even though I tried to drop the political subject you appear to want to keep it alive.

Your welcome to whatever source of definitions you wish regarding liberal versus conservative philosphies. I think most people know the difference when they read or hear someone elses view without having to resort to a dictionary, that's why we have clearly defined political parties. When was the last time you voted for a Republican National candidate? That's typically the best barometer for me of whether you are a liberal or conservative.

With respect to the Envoy vs Highlander, as I already stated, they are both good vehicles, however I would trust any of the car mag comparisons over Consumer Reports for the reasons I have already shared.

wwest · November 2001

I can't say anything one way or another about the Envoy, but it should be against the law for Toyota and Lexus to market the Rx and the HL as AWD vehicles!!!

The viscous clutch pre-load and rate of incresed viscosity with temperature is so low that virtually no engine power is EVER delivered to the rear wheels.

If you buy an HL or RX then buy the FWD models, that's all you will get with an AWD model anyway.

buccaneers · November 2001

I bought my Envoy SLT on October 10, after 2 months of shopping for an SUV. I tested everything, literally, and the only difficult part of the decision was deciding if the Envoy was really worth the $1500 premium over the TrailBlazer. I think it was. The reason that I am posting this here is because I am a former Camry driver who was happy with the outstanding quality of my Toyota. However, the two Toyota SUV's in the same price range as the Envoy (the Highlander and 4Runner) did not measure up to the Envoy, in my opinion. Even with rebates, the 4Runner is probably the most overpriced vehicle on the market. It comes up short on interior room, power, and comfort. The Highlander is a Camry wagon, and that suits the needs of many, but not me. Another reason that I posted in this forum is the assertion that Consumer Reports is a "left-wing" or "liberal" publication. By someone's defintion, I am a liberal, because I have not voted for a national republican candidate since 1988. OK, so be it. However, I did not consult CR before I made my decision. I based my decision on what I liked and disliked about each vehicle, along with its perceived value. Anyone who purchases a vehicle based solely upon a publication's recommendation will probably be disappointed. However, after I bought my Envoy, I was proud to see Motor Trend name it SUV of the year, though it would not have swayed my decision.

tidester · November 2001

bucanneers,

Personally, I think it is silliness and highly irrelevant to be labelling people as conservative or liberal in relation to car ownership or publication of data.

In the case of Consumer Reports, either the data is reliable or it isn't. If it's not, go to another source rather than casting cheap political aspersions!

Use your own best judgement in making a decision to buy an SUV. It's your money and who cares about any old repressed political hack?

tidester
Host
SUVs

heatwave3 · November 2001

tidester: Being new to the discussion the political label involved a publication not folks buying a vehicle. The issue revolved around the view that Consumer Report was somehow a more reliable information source than Car mags because it didn't accept ads.

My view was that it was less reliable because it has a substantial incentive to sensationalize and create hysteria as they have been inclined to do with their outrigger rollover tests in order to generate magazine sales.

Additionally I went off on a tangent on how the magazine lost substantial respect from me when their editorial staff changed some years back and coverted the "mag" into a "rag" with their efforts to support Nationalized Healthcare and also tried their best to destroy one of the "gem" industries of the US...namely the pharmaceutical industry. Both of which were clearly a timed effort to support the Clinton administration on issues that were clearly left-wing and flawed.

tidester · November 2001

heatwave,

Thanks for the clarifications. People and organizations said and did a lot of less than admirable things during the eight years in question!

tidester
Host
SUVs

tlauro · November 2001

It's a fair comparison. It's all going to depend on what you need in a vehicle.

If you need the room of a minivan but are shy about driving one...the get the manvan Highlander.

If you need off road/towing ability along with the room, get the Triplet of your choice.

The Highlander is basically an AWD Camery with more room, where the suburban family will be drawn. The triplets too draw a suburban crowed, including myself, but I use the vehicle for towing and off road too. No highlander can go where I need to take my SUV.

Just my thoughts after looking at them all.

tim

2002 Trailblazer LTZ

http://www.timlauro.com

budhinckley · November 2001

I'm 6'3" with a 33 inch inseam and a LONG torso. I used to have problems with legroom in cars - but now I have more problem with HEADROOM than
legroom!

I'm in immediate need to purchase a fully loaded SUV - tried out the Toyota RAV4 and Highlander. Even in the Highlander, my head was slightly bumping the moonroof. (Same in an Avalon - the new Camry was the best of all of them I sat in!)

Are there any decent decked out ($30-35K) small/medium SUVs that have decent headroom (and legroom)?

Side note: I had to special order a Nissan Maxima and waited 5 months to get it WITHOUT a moonroof - I would rather NOT go through that again. And I need to get my hands on a new SUV by the end of the year.

[Also, I am trading in a 2000 Toyota Land Cruiser - about $36K trade-in value.]

Bud Hinckley

tlauro · November 2001

If the maxima was good for you, then the Trailblazer/Envoy or Bravada would fit.
All three are the same inside and when compared to the Maxima, they all have the same headroom, more shoulder room, same hip room, and the same front leg room.
Good Luck

Tim
2002 Trailblazer LTZ

d2000one1 · November 2001

Bud,

I agree with Tim. I'm 6'4 and I feel that the headroom in the Envoy is excellent. It is one of the roomier midsize SUV's out there. Give it a try!

mrprescott · November 2001

I've never been big on GM cars, but when my friend bought the Envoy, it seemed very impressive. Tightly build, smooth ride, lot's of features: all made me able to look past the typically plastic GM interior. She's had the car for 6000 miles and had nothing but trouble. They cannot seem to get the gas guage to work, the doors have come out of alignment, and the 4wd system locked up, causing her to spin out and nearly get hit by a semi.

So much for GM redeeming itself. I tried to keep an open mind, but the Envoy has proven to be even more poorly built and unreliable than I would have thought.

I'd rather have a Highlander, or especially and Acura MDX, any day!

tlauro · November 2001

I can understand you impression if a friend has had issues, but to me it's a bit steep to say the Envoy has proven to be even more poorly built and unreliable based on her vehicle.

Doors rattling..sure, I had one do that....tightened up before I took delivery and it's been fine since.

The interior thing....sure it's plastic and vinyl, but then even the highlander and Acura are too. It's just perhaps an appearance thing/preference.

The 4WD lock up...who knows....sounds like a one off issue, not a design issue.

I had so many little issues with my last Camery, that I was thinking they were all crap too...but it was perhaps just my car. But in the end, the carpet was nothing but fuzz, the wood grain...plastic, the paint, thin and the dash...never did stop squeaking in the 30 months we had it. Can't bash the entire line up though.

Sure, I like the MDX, but I'm not paying $40k for one, they wouldn't discount them anywhere and in the end, it's off road limitations would have limited me too much.

brian125 · December 2001

SORRY GM PRODUCTS HAVE A LONG DISAPPOINTING RAP SHEET OVER THE YEARS.IHAVE HAD MY SHARE OF THEM AND I WOULD RATHER PAY THE EXTRA NOW FOR CAR WITH A GOOD TRACK RECORD THAN A TIRED GM CAR/SUV THAT HAS BEEN REFACED WITH THE SAME PROBLEMS. WINDOWS DOORS, RADDLES SQUEAKES MAKES ME SICK. NISSAN, TOYOTA, HONDA'S ARE WORTH EVERY PENNY COMPARED TO THE GARABAGE GM, FORD CHRSLYER ARE MAKING.THIS IS JUST MY 2 CENTS,AND I KNOW I EHCO THE SAME AS MANY PEOPLE.32 GRAND FOR A ENVOY HELL NO. I WOULD SPEND ANOTHER 8 GRAND FOR A MDX OR THE RX300.WHEN THE AMERICAN CAR COMPANIES GET IT RIGHT THEN MAYBE THEY WILL GET MY MONEY.UNTIL THEN

rljslick · December 2001

I'm really sick of people knocking Consumers Reports because of their review of cars. If you didn't read this or hear this, this year Consumer Reports picked nothing but imports as their automobiles of the year, and there are a lot of people mad about that. Is CR bias about the cars they choose? Sure they are! Consumer Reports is a consumer magazine first and a car guide second. The must important thing they will look at is the reliability of a automobile first.
Some other magazine, like the very good Car & Drive magazine is a automotive magazine first and a consumer guide second, so reliability may not be the most important thing to them. So with that said, then sure I can see why imports do so well! Let face it, American cars have a long ways to go before they can match the reliability of Toyota, Honda and Volvo.
Try this, don't read the reviews at all just look at the reliability of each of the cars, and my point will be understood.

tlauro · December 2001

I understand your point about American Manufacturer's rap sheets over the years, but I grew up in a GM Family who had Olds, Caddy, GMC franchises and while may be a bit biased, still drove tons of imports...heck I drove what ever I wanted to. Believe me, they all have issues. I personally owned a TT300ZX, Maxima, and an M3 recently. They too had problems. The Z had turbo issues, the Maxima was good overall, but little rattles and what not were constantly there and the M...well, damn expensive to get any normal work done but that goes with the territory.

Even the imports that are refaced have issues. My camery is just one example...my buddy at work's new Altima is another...it's cheap inside and even he admits for $26k it is. But style and features sold him.

Just my 2 cents is that I'll keep the $8k in difference and deal with the warranty issues as they arise.

I'm not saying all domestics are better or don't have problems jsut like the imports, and certainly none of the vehicles out today are worth so much money, but my point was just that the MDX...sure isn't worth sticker and since I know not to buy or finance a new vehicle(that's not for this forum), I'll live with a much less costly domestic for 30-36 months and move on from there.

brian125 · December 2001

i do see your point also. and i do agree about the mdx.i like to upgrade every 4 years.but back to cars with bad rap sheets. i'm retireing in 4 years, so i bought a 1997 kia SEPHIA knowing fully aware it was probably a piece of junk. just to get back and forth to nyc. for 10 grand i figured what the hell. GUESS WHAT I SHOULD OF WENT FOR THE EXTRA 4 GRAND FOR THE TOYOTA OR NISSAN.i already went for air compressor, master cylinder, whole exhust system, 2 alternators,seatbelts, gas cap,and front end problems along with other little problems.I AM A FIRM BELIEVER IN CONSUMER REPORTS ON CAR MANUFACTORIES PROBLEMS.I also owned a 93 maxima sold it with 45,000 not a raddle or squeek.BRAKES AND OIL CHANGES THAT WAS IT. FOR THE MOST PART I STEER CLEAR FROM AMERICAN CARs, and it kills me to say it we should keep our money in america.but until GM, AND ALL THE CAR COMPANYS WANT TO PRODUCE A BETTER PRODUCT i will look else wear. i work to hard for my money to be insulted in thinking the american car companies can't compete with japan or germany.as long as there making money they will keep putting out a inferior product.

d2000one1 · December 2001

It's not just American cars that have problems. Here is a copy of the long-term update on the BMW X5 4.4i from the current Motor Trend magazine:

"BMWs are known for solid engineering and exceptionally high build quality. But that didn't prevent a quartet of service issues from attacking our beautiful-in-all-black X5. A clunk of some sort showed up in the steering, especially just off-center, with a sound and feel not unlike the plucking of a cello string. Culprit: Bad steering shaft, replaced under warranty. Then the self-leveling headlights locked in their lowest position. Culprit: Defective lighting computer module, replace under warranty. The X5's Steptronic trans started making a clunking noise of its own, especially when manually shifted into second gear. Culprit: Faulty transmission-selector switch, replaced under warranty. Finally, the plastic cover over the rear-deck latch microswitch popped off and disappeared. Result: replaced under warranty. Granted, our One-Year tester is an early production unit, and our dealer advised that several of these issues have been addressed as running productions improvements. But we still didn't expect problems ot come four at at time. Otherwise, the X5's performance still makes it one of this staff's favorite weekend rides."

As you see, any manufacturer can have it's share of problems, including BMW! Add the 4 issues listed above to the 8 or 9 recalls on this vehicle... well, I'm sure you can see my point!

PS This vehicle only had 14,322 miles on it and it's MSRP is $57,910!!

brian125 · December 2001

ist and 2nd year models do have kinks to work out but i would bet my life any minor or major problems bmw has with the x5 will be corrected.most american cars will mask the problem or wont even make any major effort to fix. example dodge chrysler minivans alot of there vans have trany problems.why wont they make a better product.the consumer lets them get away with it.IF YOU SCAN THROUGH THE DODGE CHRYSLER BOARDS YOU WILL SEE ALL THE COMPLAINTS. I TO TRADED MY 95 PLY. VOYAGER IN WITH 47,000 MILES AND A BAD TRANY.IM SORRY BENZ, BMW INIFINITY LEXUS, HONDA,NISSAN, TOYOTA'S ARE THE WAY TO GO UNTIL AMERICAN CARS ARE UP TO THE LEVEL OF THERE COMPETITORS. JUST MY THOUGHTS, AND I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE SHARE MY VIEW WHO ARE MIDDLE CLASS INCOME.

tlauro · December 2001

"SORRY BENZ, BMW INIFINITY LEXUS, HONDA,NISSAN, TOYOTA'S ARE THE WAY TO GO UNTIL AMERICAN CARS ARE UP TO THE LEVEL OF THERE COMPETITORS. JUST MY THOUGHTS, AND I KNOW ALOT OF PEOPLE SHARE MY VIEW WHO ARE MIDDLE CLASS INCOME. "

Not sure I'd put Benz, BMW, Infinity and Lexus in the middle class income of available options. Sure they have low end cars, but still not middle class income cars. For the money, those guys better be 100% on with engineering.

However, the rest......still have issues too. I'm not one for a Urinary Olympic Event on the issue as I value everyone's opinion, but I will stay with my Trailblazer over the Toyota for now. I do like the drive system in the Highlander better than the A4WD in the TB, but for me it's not an issue. There are tons of other areas though where my TB won me over and so far....minor problems haven't been too much of a concern.

PS......what's with the use of CAPITAL LETTERS in posts?

tlauro · December 2001

"i'm retireing in 4 years, so i bought a 1997 kia SEPHIA knowing fully aware it was probably a piece of junk."

You should have went with something else....besides Kia??? My God man what were you thinking???

For the record.....I wouldn't put any of what I'm saying about GM in the same class as Kia....I don't care if they are associated with GM or not....not for me.

tlauro · December 2001

"1st and 2nd year models do have kinks to work out but i would bet my life any minor or major problems bmw has with the x5 will be corrected.most american cars will mask the problem or wont even make any major effort to fix. "
-----
Well regarding the GMC/Highlander topic and looking at GMC and the other two of the Triplets, GM is in the 1st year of kinks as many are, however, not many kinks have been found or vehicles affected.

So far, they have not only fixed them, but my dealer has given me a loaner for even simple one day fixes as GM wants the new triplet owners to be 100% happy. Thus far I am.

Thus, the "masking of the problems" related to the triplets would not necessarily apply to them.

brian125 · December 2001

my sephia was just a point i was making. should of went for the extra $$$ but for 10grand with no loan i figured what the hell. well shame on me. i'm a firm believer in the consumer reports on cars they are dead on with car problems past an present. well that said good luck with your TB,TLAURO

john_lise · December 2001

Man, you guys crack me up! The Envoy is the SUV of the year (Motortrend)...don't forget so was the Grand Cherokee...guys and gals, do yourselves a favour if you are going to buy the Envoy, buy the longest (unlimited mileage) warranty you can....GM sucks in customer realiability (statistical fact). What makes anyone think the Envoy is any different? Oh...I know it looks good!!! Talk to me after 3 or 4 years when I am driving my HL and it still is as tight and realiable as the day I bought it. I will wave when I pass you by at Mr Goodwrench!!!

In regards to the recall. Toyota wanted to avoid problems in the future....if this was a North American product they would have waited a couple of years...had a few deaths, denied any problems and then be forced by Govt to recall the vehicles.

DO YOU THINK I HAVE A SOUR TASTED IN MY MOUTH WITH GM PRODUCTS?

For all you disbelievers....ask 10 Toyota owners if they are happy with their vehicle...then ask 10 GM owners....you'll get your answer.

If you still want to buy an Envoy....better yet Lease it...if it turns out to be a lemon, you can give them the keys and walk away.

Good luck to you all...I'm heading back to the HL discussion (take a look - it might change your mind and save you future GM grief)!!!

tlauro · December 2001

Reliability is yet to be seen in both vehicles so post back when there is a track record. Then if you're not in a new vehicle after 2-3 years let alone 4, my condolences...but that's another forum.

I'm not bashing the HL, looked at it strongly, but for money and what it offered me I chose one of the triplets. Essencially I found the HL to be a station wagon/Mini-Van/SUV blend. A "Man Van" I call it. I needed a true SUV not just a vehicle that offers on road use/safety.

brian125 · December 2001

i gotta love people like JOHN LISE. IF more people like john and myself tell GM, FORD AND ALL THE REST OF THE AMERICAN PEANUT GALLERY CAR COMPANIES YOUR PRODUCT sticks.why bother rebadging these cars change a fender shape the backs, its all the same tired product with bad track records.wake up america.IF CONSUMERS SEND A MESSAGE AND STOP BUYING THERE CRAPPY PRODUCTS. I BET THERE TUNE WILL CHANGE REAL FAST.

tlauro · December 2001

"why bother rebadging these cars change a fender shape the backs, its all the same tired product with bad track records"

if this comment is directed at the triplets, there isn't any carry over from previous designs. most of the new GM cars that are released contain consideral improvements over the past gens and are not just sheetmetal improved vehicles.

lbthedog · December 2001

Just back from engine sludge topic. Why is it only Toyota owners are complaining? That many first year owners? Just back from Vibe topic, some whipped guy said he can't buy a Pontiac because his wife doesn't like them. Are all you Toyota people castrated? Hey try to laugh. This is just another one of the boards loaded up with people trying to feel better about turning their backs on their neighbors.

brian125 · December 2001

12 car owners 4 yrs or more of owner ship. all toyota honda an nissan everyone loves the car and will purchase another. 12 american car owners 4 yr old cars or older 9 people said they would not buy again 3 said they were happy. these people thought me and my son were nuts but the facts are in. i can sleep tonight big dog. nothing we didn't know already. try the survey ask people who own american cars for 4 or more years.

tlauro · December 2001

Here's a snip from a recent Automotive News Artical regarding one month sales.

GMs total utility sales of 99,027 and medium utility sales of 47,612 are the best single month figures ever. The Cadillac Escalades sales of 2,522 units for the month helped GM again lead the industry in full-size utility sales. Additionally, the all-new Chevy Trailblazer, GMC Envoy, and Oldsmobile Bravada gained significant sales increases over the market leading Ford Explorer.

So regardless of how many people participate in your survey, they are showing where they stand in the sales dept. GM still leads the way, especially in the world of SUV's and Light Trucks.

lbthedog · December 2001

What "Survey"?

Though this is not truly related to this topic, I found it interesting that today the per share value of GM stock passed the per share value of Toyota stock. That does not mean that much except that the Japanese financial market is in such total and complete shambles that the health of any Japanese corporation can be considered questionable. Yep, even Toyota.

spdmtr5 · December 2001

Going through the posts I see the HL does not have a 4high or 4low lockup.What a surprise those folks are going to have in a real snowstorm!

Toyota Highlander vs GMC Envoy

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