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Those things can be argued ad nauseum.
I can counter (as I did) that even in the cheapest trim on Honda you still get the same nice engine and all safety features as stability control and three-row side impact airbag.
That's why those marketing droids are on payroll. To find people who are fascinated with the cheapest possible doodad to pay the highest possible price. We are all sucke...^H^H^H consumers.
I will leave that discussion at that. (My marketing/product launch meetings are over... Less time to browse the net and flame. Hate those folks in my outfit..)
That's all nice and good. But I don't believe that is really what sells a van or a car to many women and that is who mostly drives them. Chrysler doesn't make them standard on their vans, saying not that many people ask for them. They want the electric doors and hatch. Good price and good looks. Can you imagine the vans Chrysler would sell if they dressed up their inside a bit. I doubt you would have anymore asking for side airbags. They want those power sliding doors and hatch. and all those goodies. You can bet if people were bugging Chrysler about side airbags, they'd make them standard. Or at least have a bunch on their lots.
I agree. But Chrysler, along with GM and Ford are in a money crises. They are going to put on their vans what they think will better sell them and it isn't side airbags. Did you know my 2005 Dodge has an airbag for my knees, under the dash? Chrysler didn't feel it important enough to even advertise it.
As it is, they stripped a lot off my van that my brother has on his to save money. I have no pin lights on my door for any of the switches except my window. Key ring light is gone, they took one of the two lights on the vanity mirrors, one of two lights off the rear hatch, glove box light, and de-icer off the bottom of the windshield. My brother's van has all of those. To many people buying foreign.
I like the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger that has been available on almost all DC minivans but the strippers made for rental and lease. This nice feature had been a comfort item only on the very expensive luxury vehicles until DaimlerChrysler made it available for the common man. Same with the nice complete overhead console with compass/outside temperature and trip computer. The first I heard of this was when a friend told me about it being on his wife's Cadillac.
Odyssey EX has that and you make it sound like that is something exceptional nowdays. Is it?
Many good ideas appear first somewhere. I really found no correlation between current quality and features and being first to the market. All minivan innovations appeared somewhere first. But for historical interest it does not matter much - except for high inestment high tech items, as suspension, or engine, or electrical subsystem: were long good track record does count.
Ergonomic features are too easy to replicate to be in this category.
Yes, a Stroller with all capital letters. Those things are humongous. :sick: I am thankful to have a 5'9" ex-gymnast and an avid rockclimber handling them.
I can totally understand why many will find it extremely burdensome to load them.
Dang.. I promised to quit posting today..
I think the modem is going out for this computer. The lights keep going out on it and I have to wait a few minutes and plug it back in to get it to work again. I sure don't want to go back using a phone line and AOL again. I guess I'll pick one up tomorrow.
My friend in Australia would have no idea what an Alabama build Odyssey is like. He would buy a quite another Odyssey (entirely different car is sold outside US). Those Hondas and Toyota's around here are quite american down to all the bolts.
The real "foreign" Odyssey. Quite a nice and practical vehicle it seems. Still winning comparisons .
Toyota Avensis Verso GLX, Holden Zafira, Kia Carnival LS, Toyota Tarago GLi, Hyudai Trajet GL - WTF are those competitors. :confuse: And Chrysler Voyag'r SE LWB got the lowest mark - though mostly for value...
better view
Interesting site site to browse BTW. Quite a different picture out there...
Does not seem so. Just a simpler model.
I either rent a van (usually Dodge GC) for bike trips in Utah and such, a Jeep Wrangler on Hawaii or a convertible, which is frequently a Chrysler, elsewhere, inluding cold Boston, . That experience turned me off that brand completely.
Now I need to be gone indeed. Best luck..
Now, when did anyone expect to hear THAT as an argument for getting a DC minivan product? My the times they are a changin'.
I have to agree with dae about the dual climate control.....yeah, DC had it early on but really....who cares. It's not like they invented it, it had been on plenty of other vehicles before. And I don't think that is a must-have feature for most people anyway. The majority of the time, there will be one adult driving and a bunch of kids in the back rendering it quite useless.
As for side curtains, I think that IS an important feature that will sell minivans. I know when we were at the dealer, it was a major sticking point for at least 3 families there. Honda had it on all the vans, Toyota had it on some (though you couldn't find any optioned with them because they had all been sold already), and DC had it sparingly as well. At least in my area, it was a major selling point.
Like I have always said before, these vehicles cannot compare with the "sporty" handling, fun to drive, and energetic way the Ody drives. Always glad to come back home to my Ody!
But $45+K for a 2.5L 4 banger!
Wow!
I don't know for sure what the currency exchange is.
But we can get the Ody LX (255hp VTEC V6) for about half that in USD!
Must be the taxes(VAT) in down under!
We should not complain here about prices - we are spoilt!
Decisions should be driven by facts. In this case, with
T & C vs Ody
Low miles vs Very High Miles
2001 vs 1999
Previous earlier 1990 Tranny Problem Fixed(?) vs A Known Tranny beginning 1999(Fix done?)
Low resale value(Easier to bargain) vs High resale value(Difficult to bargain)
Driver does not care about fun to drive, sporty handling, refinement, etc
Based on the above facts, the T & C looks more attractive.
2)"They are going to put on their vans what they think will better sell them and it isn't side airbags."
1) I think the same thing could be said of Nissan, Mazda and most any other manufacturerer. It seems like the overall quality of parts/materials isn't up to the high standards from 10 years ago.They feel like they have to cut expenses(competition), so they use a cheaper plastic, or cheaper upholstery,parts or carpet. Things they think most people won't notice. Or, take out all the nice little extras as you mentioned.
2) I agree that side or knee airbags may have little effect in the sales of pickup trucks. But, think it would be important in the sale of minivans...or people movers.
Don't know if knee airbags would cause any reaction other than curiosity.
Australian. US$34K
We indeed should not complain about prices here. Especially on gazoline.
My wife DID NOTICE that the Odyssey EX is MUCH NOISIER than either the GC Sport or the T&C LX. :sick: She also noticed that the glove box of the Ody intruded into her knee space and that the Ody did NOT have the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger.
On the other hand, I noticed that the Ody seats are more comfortable for me than the seats of either the GC Sport or the T&C LX and there is more cargo space behind the 3rd row of the Ody EX than either the GC Sport or T&C LX.
That's is odd. How tall is she? I am 6' and my wife 5'9.5" and it is seemed plenty of knee space on 2005 EX even in the most forward position.
Not enough difference in power and handling between an Ody EX and GC Sport or T&C LX to notice.
11s on the 180hp engine vs 8.5s 0-60 not enough difference? Yard smaller turning radius? 15% more lateral road holding? 10ft smaller stopping distance from 60? What is enough difference then?
While many other fine points about DC vs Honda vs rest people do argue about, driving dynamics is usually the one thing everybody agree in the Odyssey's favor.
Ody did NOT have the separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger.
Mine 2005 EX most certainly does have this feature. Yet to use it.
If you are talking about the DC T&C for that quote then I think you missed my point. Mid to late 90s DC minivans were pretty much famous for horrendous transmission woes. I basically pray everyday that my '98 Expresso will not dump its tranny.
I was just pointing out the fact that it is funny to hear someone flip the argument and choose the DC offering over the Honda in the area of drivetrain reliability. Obviously DC has won back that customer's trust.
Those that drive with no energy/vigor will not. So it is difficult for them to understand and appreciate that superior energetic and dynamic performance.
My '04 Ody was measured at an even faster 7.5 sec for 0 - 60mph by C & D June 2004 minivan comparo vs 9.6 sec for the 3.8L 215hp DGC. A full 2secs that many car enthusiasts know is a significant number! C & D even said that the DGC would not cut it with this engine. Infact I take great pleasure whenever I can in whopping these DGCs and T & C whenever I can find them on the road!
Based on my 60 minivan rentals of mostly DGCs and T & Cs(some loaded with less than 10 miles on the ODO) over the past 2 years on business trips, I do know the performance capabilities of these vehicles and they just don't cut it like C & D says vs the Ody in terms of performance. It is always a pleasure to get back to my Ody and drive it like a sporty car( the superior driving dynamics). Edmunds.com is very accurate in saying that the Ody is the BMW of minivans in terms of its superior driving dynamics.
The melodic sound of the Ody's highly refined engine may be what some may be referring as noise. Boy, you should hear how awful those rentals sound when you try to make go faster at above 70mph - It sounds like a rebellion saying, "Don't push me anymore". Sometimes while driving the rentals, I forget that I am not driving my Ody and try to do corners quickly like the Ody only to take evasive measures when realities set in.
Yes, I know the 2005 Ody EX and Touring have separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger that has been available on most DC minivans for about 10 years or more. The Ody EX still does not have the nice overhead console with compass/outside temperature and trip computer that has been available on DC minivans for many years.
Yes, the 01 Ody EX 3.5L V6 has more HP and torque than the 3.3L in the 02 GC Sport and 02 T&C LX but ther performance does not feel like it when driving any of the 3. The Ody EX also gets the lowest gas mileage of the 3 but the extra cargo space behind the Magic Seat is an advantage.
If I were going to buy a new minivan now, it would be difficult to choose between the 2005 Ody EX (cloth) and the 2005 GC SXT as each has items I like that are not on the other one. The choice is so close it would depend upon which salesman I like at the most friendly dealership. Currently, the Honda dealership seems to have the least pushy salesmen that I would prefer dealing with.
BTW, did you read Edmunds data on the new 2007 Mazda MPV? Keep your eyes posted for more data from Edmunds.
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2007/mazda/mpv/100531777/preview.html?mktcat=vans&kw=HTML&mk- tid=NL990385&DARTmail
"What Edmunds.com Says: Forget smaller and more nimble, the next MPV will attempt to compete with the best in the segment with a larger size and more amenities."
"What We Know: Mazda will be completely redesigning the venerable MPV, with a tentative release date scheduled for the fall of 2006. The new MPV will be somewhat larger than current and past models in order to distinguish it from the likes of the new Mazda 5. Mazda has elected to use the Mazda 6 platform as the basis for this upcoming version of the MPV."
Still, we don't feel sorry for Dodge, as plenty of folks will be won over by its combination of agile handling, comfy ride, spacious interior, stylish looks and iconic presence in the minivan segment.
http://www.automotive.com/2005/43/dodge/caravan/reviews/driving-impressions/index.html
The 3.8-liter V6 available for the Grand Caravan delivers strong power. This big V6 is responsive when merging into fast freeway traffic, accelerating from intersections, or passing on two-lane roads.
http://www.epinions.com/content_132442394244
To Chrysler’s credit, once the headrests are raised the second-row buckets feel very good considering their size (Chrysler credits high-tech foam), but a full-size seat would be better still.
http://www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/45-int/minivans/dodge/caravan/2005/index.html
On the road, the Dodge Grand Caravan and Caravan offer a smooth ride and responsive handling. These are family-friendly vehicles that offer the features and flexibility most buyers want and there's a model for every budget. Most models come with a powerful V6 engine that delivers strong acceleration for merging onto hectic freeways
From any reasonably objective review one could cherry pick the positives (or negatives). Nobody (really) claims that DC products have no virtue, and for sure, there are reasons to chose them, from price, to particulars of equipment available. (Not sure I can say that about the sorry GM products)
The claim was that in the relative comparison, every single test (out of at least dozen of most reputable ones) picked up Honda and then Toyota as a clearly superior vehicle overall for the task at hand using both objective performance criterias and a dazzling variety of subjective analysis of its practicality and appeal.
After all, this thread is named "Minivan shopping", not just "Odyssey" or "DGC". It is all about comparisons.
P.S. I think Honda should pay me. (But that posting spree was just to end up some quite thorough research)
True dae, but how many people do you think pick a van or car because one van is a little faster, has one more gear in the tranny, can make a U turn a few feet shorter than another or etc.?
They go by looks first, then they look at what features the van offers and the price they're asking. If that all sounds good, then they take it for a test drive. If it has enough power, rides nice and is quiet, they'll usually buy it. If it's got a bad reputation, people usually won't even go look at it.
Chrysler sold an all time high number of minivans during the month of May. If people were all reading C.R or some of those other magazines and saw how Honda was faster, has a five speed instead of Chrysler's four speed, saw that Honda turned shorter and etc. why did they choose Chrysler over Honda and Toyota? It couldn't be all price.
When I bought my Dodge GC, I could care less what the other vans had that was better or worse than Dodge. I liked what I saw, knew how I wanted to use it, it rode quiet and had a smooth ride and a lot of power and the price was right. I own a Honda Civic, but never even considered a Honda as I felt it was over priced, didn't have all the goddies I wanted for a fair price and didn't have on it what I needed to use the van for.
What would be the prices on each of those purchases Hans?...taking into account rebates and incentives offered on each. I bet in a close call like that....the checkbook would be the deciding factor.
That would be correct marine. Social Psychologists have indicated that people choose a vehicle much as they would their mate. First on looks(interior/exterior styling etc), then personality(engine pep,loud or quiet/performance ) and lastly money(socioeconomic status) Just because dae likes a girl for her attributes doesn't mean you or hans will.
I think most people when looking at the Dodge, Toyota or Honda, would say all three are nice looking on the outside. I think the Honda is the better of the three in looks inside, with the Toyota second. With that said, Honda andToyota have a big advantage on the Dodge. What would sway most woman and some men away from them and to the Dodge would be the extra goodies that Dodge offers that woman want and price. I think that is what Dodge has done with giving the extra goodies, droped the price by thousands and come out with Stow-N-Go.Most women could care less if it shifts four times, instead of five, if it has the high tech engine or U turns a few feet shorter. For some on this board to keep stating these advantages of the Honda over the Dodge, means little or nothing to them. Most, that bought the Honda, I'm sure did it because they fell in love with the interior and reputation for quality. Same with the Toyota.
I just read that Hyundai is coming out with a minivan they will call the Entourage. It will be a cousin to the Kia Sedona. Will arrive in 2006 as a 2007 model. Will come loaded with saftey features standard...airbags everywhere. Will have the 3.8 V6 engine.So, should be interesting.
Now you're getting childish again. When I want driving pleaseure, I drive my 9-3 SS. When I want to drive my family around safely, I drive my T&C. I laugh every time I think of someone looking for "fresh meat" in his Ody. Freakin hysterical.
The same for the other 4 cars in the family. The SRT8 with its 435+hp looks very interesting to hunt the Pontiac GTO!
Again, let the accollades/awards speak for themselves
Once a couple has experienced the ultimate comfort of separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger, there is no going back to the old fashioned "One temperature fits all". In addition, my 02 T&C LX has a third different temperature for the rest of the vehicle and the coveted overhead console with compass/outside temperature and trip computer.
Some who like the Magic Seat and more powerful engine with 5 speed AT of the Ody should feel just as strongly that their Ody is just right for them.
Jipster likes the "just right" size and Zoom-Zoom-Zoom of his Mazda MPV.
The trip computer is pretty nice to amuse yourself with on a boring trip (long drive in the midwest for example), especially the instant mpg calculations. Also, the "distance to empty" function is helpful when you are wondering if you should grab gas immediately or if you can safely wait for that next rest stop another 50 miles down the road. I have to admit that it is somewhat disappointing to be without that in a new minivan.
I think the Ody drives much better than the GC however. The pitifully small engine differences are basically meaningless as far as I'm concerned but I do enjoy the Ody's relative nimbleness for a minivan. And the engine sounds good when wound up (it IS a Honda after all) but really.....it's a minivan. I don't plan on trying to whip any unsuspecting cars at a stoplight or on the freeway. And I disagree with mackava more with the way he said things than the facts behind them, but there is a certain threshold of performance people want in even their minivans. My '98 Plymouth Expresso is totally gutless, and it's downright dead (acceleration) over about 50mph....this even with the largest V6 offered that year. I think all three minivans for '05 pass muster for engine performance....but would agree that Honda has the most agile of the 3 entries. And in many places (NYC area especially) that is a big plus.
As I have posted, we've just purchased a Quest. She liked the Quest's looks the most, power doors, and then its many cleverly designed storage spaces. But she was mostly (I was too) concerned about the price! Interestingly, she absolutely fell in love with GC's stow-n-go, especially the 3rd row split seat, which she thought would make storing a double stroller a breeze. For this single reason alone, she would've thrown everything she loved about the Quest out the window...if it weren't for the GC's $1K higher price tag.
There's NO WAY we would pay $28K for a Honda, even if it's light years better! Who cares when it's that much more expensive!! :mad: Even though we're quite affluent incomewise, we've got a huge mortgage and quite a few mouths to feed (who doesn't?).
I think Honda and Toyota have great minivans. Their down fall, as far as I'm concerned, is value for the buck. They're priced to high for what many people are willing to pay and what they offer, that people want.
Outside of inside good looks, the features they offer and really excel in, make little difference to the average minivan buyer. The things the average buyer wants, they charge a heck of a lot of money for and price themselves out of the market to many buyers.
Reading some of the complaints on the Toyota threads, it seems quite a few paid around $40,000 for their minivan. I don't know about most of you, but their is no way I am going to pay anywhere near that price for a minivan even though I could afford to do so. Especially if I can buy something else that has all the features on it the Toyota has, but might not be quite as nice looking, but sells for a good $15,000 less. I'm willing to bet in 5 years, if wanting to buy another, they're not going to give me $15,000 more over a Dodge, Quest, or even a Ford.
Top of the line Chrysler, even with $2500 rebate of invoice is about $33K ($38 invoice), while Odyssey Touring can be had easily for $33.5K. Reasonably equiped EX is $26. I do not think then are so vastly different in price as you imply.
I'm willing to bet in 5 years, if wanting to buy another, they're not going to give me $15,000 more over a Dodge, Quest, or even a Ford.
That's an odd way of thinking. Cars depreciate proportionally to the intial price. So if they lose 50% in 5 years, 15K difference in paid price results in $7.5K difference in remaining price.
Not that this hypothetical $15000 difference is grounded in reality for comparable products, as I mentioned above.
You're a bigtime flamer, but I don't wish you ill will, and truly hope you don't run into problems while thinking that your minivan can do things that it wasn't designed to do (the things that a GTO or other like vehicles can do)
Others may be paying more as you mentioned, but that holds true for any car purchase. An uninformed buyer walks into a Dodge store and wants to buy a Caravan and assumes the sticker price is what he pays, I'm sure not too many dealers will try and talk him out of it. Comparing apples to apples (as best as possible) the DC Caravan SXT, Sienna XLE (base or with package #3 if you want all of the safety options) or Honda Ody EX cloth, the invoice for each will be within a couple thousand of each other. The DC has the most incentives true, but Toyota has been offering more lately, and very good financing as well. The Ody is too new for them to offer much incentives yet. Although I found one local dealer quickly offering a lower price that I expected. You can also load up all 3 vans and pay well over $30k, you are right, even close to $40k if you want every bell and whistle. I did not need, want or could afford all the bells, but felt the Sienna as I got it, had everything I needed at the price I wanted.
What is helpful about this forum, is that it allows all of us to include the "deals" we got, or our experiences in a manner that benefits others. What others helped me with, was finding the Darcars and Fitzmall webites, to use as comparisions to my local dealers. I literally saved thousands by going to MD, than I would have if I stayed locally. Not everyone is going to do this, but I did, and I thank the others who had shared their experiences by doing so.
I don't pretend to think that the Sienna is a cheaper van than the DC vans, for me it was. It depends on a lot of factors - where you live (for taxes), the dealers that are good or bad, and the model you want with the features you want. If I hadn't gone to Fitzmall, the DC van may be in my driveway now. Or if the leasing deals had been better at Honda, I would have gone that route. But in the end, the Sienna had the right combination to win me over.