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BTW, congrats on the family addition.
Also, does the 4WD add anything else besides the moonroof for $1100? Although that does seem like a fair price for this upgrade.
I'm thinking EX w/side airbags, just can't decide on whether 2WD is safe enough.
Thanks for all the great tips! I love this board!!
Can we get aftermarket Hitches and Balls, if so were. At $500 is worth more that the boat.
Couls someone advice...and finally what was the towing max on the E? Doeas anybody know????
Thanks
http://www.handa-accessories.com/elementext.html
I bet Honda outsources production of that type of accessory. I know Subaru does, then they mark it up. Even then I paid $180 for mine, OE Subaru. $500 is insane!
Do they include an oil cooler and a power steering cooler? I know they do for the Odyssey. That might explain it.
Edit: looks like no, Handa had it for $212. They say even list is under $300. That dealer is trying to rip you off.
Towing capacity is 1500 lbs for the Element.
xweb: you'll only find out FWD was not enough if you get stuck. Do you really want to wait until you're stuck? Get 4WD. In the snow and mud you'll benefit from it.
-juice
I thought the CRV hitch was a joke to install!!
Subaru uses "all wheel drive" where a portion of the power is always sent to the back wheels - this helps much more on curves and snowy roads.
The main advantage to 4WD of the Honda variety in California, is that it will save you having to put on chains when the "chains required" signs are up in the mountains. Even though in those conditions the 4WD really doesn't help. (In the midwest and eastern USA, people get by without 4WD or chains all the time.)
I have been told that "traction control" systems that prevent wheel spin and slides by selectively activating the ABS system on a wheel by wheel basis are almost as good as AWD in keeping you out of trouble on snow and ice; and also that snow tires on FWD cars are better than regular tires and 4WD or AWD.
So there are a lot of ways of approaching the 4WD issue. (Of course 4WD is essential for off-road use, but the Element is not really an off-road car, with or without 4WD.)
The Elements 4W is totally useless on wet roads - it simply doesn't activate in a timely fashion. The Subaru AWD, VW 4 Motion, and Audi Quattro systems are designed for wet roads. They use all four wheels, all the time.
Do you have a Trick Trucks or a U-Haul near you? Those types of places do it. Even Pep Boys does.
-juice
RT4WD is a reactive design. That's true. However, it is much faster and more effective than you seem to expect. The rear wheels will kick in after the front tires spin about one quarter of a turn.
The main advantage is that it allows the vehicle to remain in FWD mode when power to the rear is superfluous. The drivetrain is more efficient this way, which promotes good fuel economy and acceleration.
Traction control systems will help you accelerate in slippery conditions by preventing power from "leaking" out one side of the differential. They don't do all that much for cornering and handling. (They don't do anything unless you have your foot on the gas.) You need a stability control system that manages all four wheels to balance a car in a slippery turn.
I agree that proactive or full-time AWD is the best in terms of absolute power distribution. But your paper assessment of reactive systems is considerably weaker than experience has shown.
My friend leased a ML320 and actually turns it off in the snow, he thought it was a nuisance.
Also, a FWD vehicle going up a steep hill is a recipe for disaster. All the weight transfers to the rear axle. The fronts have no traction and aren't likely to get it even with traction control.
Consumer Reports' test a couple of months back had AWD better than even snow tires on FWD, IIRC. The advantage was slight, but imagine both with the same tires.
-juice
I do agree that the main benefit of an AWD Element for me is to go around the chains required checkpoints. I currently use a Wrangler to do that, but have discovered that its system doesn't help much on icy roads.
Of course, over here, the roads are cleaned pretty quickly, and the car I have right now, a 15-year-old Opel Kadett hatch (FWD), has not given me any trouble, although I am very careful to drive slower when it's wet or icy or snowy.
micweb, varmint, ateixeira--thanks for the material to think about! It does sound like the AWD system would be somewhat helpful, but perhaps I could make do with snow tires. Of course, then I'd be spending as much for a second set of winter wheels and tires as the AWD costs anyway!
I used to live in Montana, had a 1984 Toyota Tercel wagon with 4WD I engaged with a lever. It did help, but I still managed to slide into a curb when I took a turn too fast (driving on packed snow). Then I had a 1991 Nissan Sentra 4WD (full-time) which was great in winter driving but otherwise a lemon. I liked having the flexibility of 4WD, and it came in handy a few times when parked on muddy logging roads.
Plus the weight penalty of AWD for performance--it doesn't appear to affect the gas mileage much, but the extra couple hundred pounds must have some impact on performance. Anyone driven both versions?
I'd absolutely love to test drive an Element, but unfortunately there's only one military-related dealer, and they have none in stock--whenever they get one in, it gets sold immediately!
I guess I'm leaning towards 4WD now, even though I can't get it with a stick through this dealer.
Anyone ever ship a car overseas? Maybe I can buy one in the States and have it shipped over if it's not too expensive.
You all are lucky to have all those Honda dealerships to test drive at! Maybe I need to make a special trip just to go test driving.
Of course, then the 2004s will come out and I'll be confused again. Thanks everyone, you all make this one of the best forums I've seen.--x
Bigkahunafl - I don't think it's an OEM accessory, but you can try Handaaccessories.com. FWIW, I've read articles describing how to create your own mesh covers. The best looking one I've seen used gutter-guard material with a nice aggressive-looking diamond pattern. I've also seen an "Element of the month" with two riveted metal plates up front.
Send me an e-mail for details.
I think FWD with snow tires is pretty easy to deal with in the snow, our big RWD van was OK probably because we took it easy and had enough weight to keep the tires planted, and the Mid-Rear Fiero was awful on only 1 inch. I have never driven AWD in the snow, so I figure I'll be fine with Front and snow tires.
I'd still pick good all seasons with AWD over FWD with snow tires.
-juice
Haven't crashed or gotten stuck yet, though I had a rough time once before I got snow tires on going up a steep hill from a standstill. And I don't stay home when it snows either, unless it's really bad.
I bought a 4WD EX green a few weeks ago and am really enjoying it! Everyone I show it to loves it too.
Thanks for any feedback.
Had the Element for 3 months now (3400 miles) and still love it. It's great for my family of three and any outings we take.
Steve, Host
this is my first time posting a message, because i am quite intimidated by writing/chatting online in open forums, particularly when everyone is seemingly so well informed and you(that'd be me)don't know much about anything. anywho, i will try to be brief, though i probably won't be:o/... i'm a working class, middle aged broad that does not purchase a car every 4-5 years, vowed to never ever purchase a brand new car again, and is(was)quite happy to be rollin' in my PAID FOR! hooptie...that is...until i saw the ad for this stupid car in nov'02...i was pretty much done for...by dec'02 i learned of this discussion board and i've been checking in ever since...thankfully you guys talked me down from my Element induced high that had me wanting to buy the first one off the production line(lack of funding is a pretty good buzz-buster also:o|)...blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda, yadda...okay, so today i signed about ten undotted lines for a:
EX 2WD Automatic(G/Green)
Fog Lights
Wheel Locks
Splash Guards
TOTAL sale price: 20,600.00
so, from 1 to 10, ten being "You go girl!" and one being "Dude, you got jacked!"...send me a some numbers kindly people...
thanx in advance for all of your input, because i probably won't be back...again this was my first time In Life! jumping on one of these thingys and i am really just completely out of my element:o|...yes, cheesey pun one could see coming from down the block and around the corner was fully intended...tee hee...sorry folks...thanx again...okay...bye...
I can't give you any idea about what type of deal you got compared to other people - I haven't talk money to anyone yet. However, here's how I think about it: if you want that particular vehicle more than you want the dollars, then you've done the right thing. I love my 5 year old (and also paid for) Wrangler and while I only got a fair, not great, deal on it, it has been worth every cent I paid for it. We also own a 2000 Tacoma, which I dislike intensely. I got an excellent "deal" on it but for me it certainly isn't worth the money I'm paying for it. If I could afford to take a huge loss on it, I would dump it in a heartbeat, but it isn't yet worth what I owe on it, and I can't afford to take such a hit.
Bottom line is if you are happy with the vehicle, you got a good deal.
BTW my parents have paid full MSRP on every car they've bought (I'm old enough now to tell them what they should pay - thanks to Edmunds). And they never thought to do anything else, so really no matter what you paid, there are people who got burned worse out there! Elements are a good value even AT MSRP.
Better change your spiel; consumers are getting better educated every day, thanks to people like Zenzikora.
I do agree with you about the time factor. That's why I negotiated my last two cars via fax and email. The less face time with a car salesperson, the better.
Steve, Host
If the dealer treated you with respect, you are happy, you like the car and ended up with what you wanted, that's a 10.
Congrats.
You keep your cars forever so you probably won't even remember what you paid for it in 8 years.
Say you could have saved $200. 200k miles later, that adds up to 1/10th of a cent per mile. Whoop-de-doo.
Enjoy. )
-juice
Now I'm stuck. I need a car, much sooner than October (before the one I'm driving quits on me). I'll probably look into any 5spd Foresters I can find, or Automatic 2wd E's and CR-V LX's.
So, people with Automatic E's, Do they have enough Get up and Go to keep ya happy?? Still fun to drive?
Peppy to one person might feel slow to another, and vice-versa.
-juice
The dealer that said they couldn't get any till Oct. had told me they looked around and tried to get one in. As it is I will have to drive almost an hour if this place really comes through. They did seem very willing to trade cars to get the right color etc., so if they can get me a 5-spd at a good price (still important, I'm not rich), I am ready to drive. . .
edit: he just called and said he does have one in stock. I can come test-drive whenever I want. Yay!
-juice
And YES they make them, just not many I guess. . . And I realize most people will want more equipment (though in this case it's only 4WD or an auto that we're talking about, the rest is standard anyway), but if they really want the target demographic to be able to buy this thing, it doesn't seem like only stocking 4WD auto EX's is gonna help much, right? I can't see for me spending the extra 1400 when I would only want 4WD maybe 3 times a year; I don't want it unless I am actually slipping in the snow, and that's not that common really here in PA. This last winter was an exception of course:-o
Besides, you can build a 2WD 5-speed Element on Honda's website.
It's very fun to drive..the stick shifts like butter.
I'll tell you what though...if I could go back and buy again I'd get a 5spd 4WD.
The stick 4WD's were not available when I bought my element and since I live in LA I thought I would never need it but I wish I had it sometimes.
The 5spd Element has a fair bit of torque and I find it can be somewhat squirrely on gravel driveways or when going up a steep hill and whenever I take a corner.
There's no limited slip differential and the lack is apparent.
It's not a big deal. It's not as if the E is not going to make it up the road or anything but I think it would have been nice to have power to all 4 corners and to not have to modulate the throttle to avoid wheelspin sometimes.
Anyway I may be buying my E on Monday if I can get my father to go along with me (to co-sign for credit)
Poked my nose around one today at the local dealer but the salesguy I got was like a limp noodle :-o He couldn't even fold the back seats up against the wall. Then he pretty much just sat there, no explanations or sales pitches, then when I asked him if he could get the car I want (diff dealer than the one that has one) he says they don't do dealer trades, but he could get one if I leave a deposit. They are also closed on Labor day.