Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

dhanley · May 2006

No sweat. I've made statements i've had to retract lots of times.

There are some options on the infiniti that you can't get on the 300C. And, doubtlessly the infiniti interior will be higher quality. Just saying that power and economy and the majority of features aren't really differentiating factors. And, it is impressive to me that chrysler puts that thumping pushrod v8 in a car (390 lb-ft!) and matches infinti's mpg. Heck, a subaru legacy GT gets 19/25 with it's 2.5T and manual tranny.

I'm not too big on bose, but i'd have to hear the systems back to back to judge. The stereo in my (aging) bmw sucks. My old saab SE (harmon-kardon) was much better. A good sterio is on my list of must-haves for the next davemobile.

As for my choosing between these two cars and the 8K price diff, my preferences run to stick shift & smaller & sportier. I've been considering boxster vs z4.

Maybe if i needed to haul things i might consider a mangum?

dave

esfoad · May 2006

One other thing no one's talked about. Resale values. I'd wager that the Infiniti will hold it's value much better than the 300.

billyperks1 · May 2006

I think BlueGuy put the nail in the coffin- the gas mileage was horrible for my driving stlye.

I will still keep it on the short list for now.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

A V8 and me would = 15/16 mpg.

laurasdada · May 2006

Being a happy 300M owner, I was looking forward to the next iteration. When I first saw the 300, I was just beside myself. What had they done!!! Like you, though, once I saw one up close and personal it wasn't as horrific as it appeared in the initial pix. But still not my cup, either.

But, props to DCX for being bold. I mean, look at the Ford 500...!

dhanley · May 2006

"One other thing no one's talked about. Resale values. I'd wager that the Infiniti will hold it's value much better than the 300."

Hard to say. A 300c awd 36-month residual is 58% right now. The m35x's 36-month resudual is 56%. Of course these are mfgr leases, so these values may not be 100% real world, but i doubt they are willing to take a bath, either.

esfoad · May 2006

Interesting that Chrysler has the residual so high. Maybe they are hoping that the car will keep the interest of the public and therefore the value. Unfortunately, Detroit vehicles, whether good or not just don't have the desireability of foreign cars, new or used. At least not yet. I hope for Chrysler that they are right.

ivorypearlg · May 2006

So I'm guessing you guys / girls have seen the new Infiniti G35 Sedan if not link : http://www.infinitihelp.com/Infiniti/Models/2007/G35%20Sedan/Description.htm

Anyway I like the new G35 Sedan a lot better then the previous G35, although the current model is great, the new exterior looks more classy and refined. The interior looks more upscale also, and doesn't look like pieces of choppy plastic. I have also heard that the sound system is going to be excellent with its own hard drive. see here : http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/17/2007-infiniti-g35-gets-in-dash-with-drive-and- -cf/

Technology is going upscale for this entry-level lux/sport sedan... I guess to push ahead of the BMW 3 again ? ( opinion )Personally I don't think that BMW's are as great as everyone says they are. .. .

Anyway the new Sedan will be ready to purchase this November and you can guarantee you will see me in the line.

Also the new G35 Coupe will be available next May I believe, so I will have to squeeze one of them into my budget also, as long as it looks similar to the photos here - http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_shows/naias_2006/0602_infiniti_g35_coupe_conce- pt/

So what are your opinions on these redesigned G's ?

aaargh · May 2006

Sounds like an Infiniti salesperson. :surprise:

blueguydotcom · May 2006

No kidding.

I too hope the new G is great. But I also am realistic...Infiniti and Lexus keep missing the boat. If they build a better car, I'd be interested.

kdshapiro · May 2006

"Technology is going upscale for this entry-level lux/sport sedan"

Putting a hard drive in the car for the radio means Infiniti is cruising ahead of it's competitors? I'm interested in innovations that make the car drive better, faster, smarter...not the subwoofers.

ivorypearlg · May 2006

I think that Infiniti gives there automobiles technology to make them drive better, faster, smarter, and safer. Although they might not be inventing these features they still are featuring them in there cars. Such as Active Head Restraints ( Thank Saab for that ).. Rear Active Steer ( Porsche ? ) ... And many other things... One thing the G class will have is the VQ35DE which was on Ward's best engines since 2002 ( Since it's first inception )... I don't know, but I own a 03' G35 Coupe and the car does drive better, faster, and looks sexier then the 3 Series... Of course that just my opinion .... And no I don't work for Infiniti nor' any other automobile company, and yes I own other brands besides Infiniti ..

kdshapiro · May 2006

"I don't know, but I own a 03' G35 Coupe and the car does drive better, faster, and looks sexier then the 3 Series... "

It does not seem to be an opinion that is in general shared by the rags and mags. In addition, the new 3 series has earned top honors in crash tests, even above the Infiniti. You can check them out for yourself at iihs.org. Maybe next year will be different.

ivorypearlg · May 2006

I'm sorry but I don't recall saying that the Infiniti G35 was safer then the 3 Series, just that Infiniti features items that make the car safer, and so on... Anyway if your looking for a car in this class and safety is your main concern overall wouldn't it be wise to look at the SAAB 9-3 or Volvo S-60 ? And my opinion belongs to myself, that's why I stated that it was my opinion, and I wouldn't want my opinion to be shared in general with everyone... But then again who cares about being mainstream.

kdshapiro · May 2006

"But then again who cares about being mainstream."

But the Infiniti is mainstream.

As far as safety goes the IS and 3 series earned top picks in it's class. That's a good match for me, because BMW would be my choice of sedan. No way taking anything fron the G, we vote with our dollars.

ivorypearlg · May 2006

That's why I am ever so surprised I bought one.... As I was a loyal SAAB owner ..

ivorypearlg · May 2006

And mainstream was referring to every ones ideas ... Not the cars, as it is so hard not to be mainstream, because people feel the need to be the same or be better ... And I never said that Infiniti's were safer..... Can you read ? I said they feature many safety features in there cars... I said that SAAB was a safe car hands down ! And I don't think you can disagree with that .... Link : http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx

As you see SAAB received a Gold while the BMW & Lexus recieved a silver rating...

And you never answered my question .. Do you own a BMW ?

kdshapiro · May 2006

"Can you read ?"
"I think that Infiniti gives there automobiles technology to make them drive better, faster, smarter, and safer"

That's exactly what you said. Faster, smarter, and safer than what?

As far as Saabs, I only said the IS and 3 series earned a top pick as did the Saab. For me, the IIHS top pick means all the cars in that list are safer than other midsize, and I wouldn't pick a Saab over BMW because the rear only got an acceptable vs good. That for the most part would not make a Saab safer overall. It would be the active features, passive features and overall handling, combined with crash test ratings that would make a BMW safer. The BMW would run rings around the Saab, as would the Infiniti. Being able to make an emergency maneuver with confidence is just as important as surviving a crash.

In answer to your question, check my profile.

billyperks1 · May 2006

You are asking KD if he owns a Bimmer?
That has to be a rhetorical question.

gordonwd · May 2006

Some years back, I took part in a marketing "focus group" session to discuss AWD vehicles. Everyone drove a different vehicle, from me with an A4 Quattro to people with Subarus, SUVs, etc. (we found out afterward that the study was commissioned by Subaru, and their people were observing our session).

Anyway, when the subject of safety came up, I was really appalled to hear people say things like "my wife and I both totalled out our cars last year...", and the general focus was on all the safety equipment. When I was asked if I felt that AWD contributed to safety, I responded that "the best way to survive an accident is not to have the accident in the first place", and I went on to say that I felt AWD to be a safety advantage in allowing me to more easily steer around a situation or otherwise maintain control. The others mostly just stared at me...

After the session finished, some of the observers came in to chat informally. One of them came up to me and said "I can tell that you are the motorcycle rider in the group since you're the only one who talked about safety in terms of avoidance instead of survival!" He was entirely correct about that, and I took it as a definite compliment. My A4 has turned into a 325i now, but I still consider the handling responsiveness of the car to be one of its primary safety features.

v_lad · May 2006

I still consider the handling responsiveness of the car to be one of its primary safety features

Unfortunately 50 y.o. mommys won't understand that or make use of additional control.

moose123 · May 2006

Gordon

How do you like the switch? I'm finally moving on from my 98 A4 quattro 6 cylinder, and waiting for delivery of my 325i, which is now on the ocean....

Thanks!

primetime79 · May 2006

I bought an IS 350 about a month ago since I bought my car my friend is now really pushing to get himself a new automobile. So he asked everyone at his work which should he buy. 330i or IS 350 7/7 girls said BMW over Lexus. I don]t know why I find this interesting. I never realized it but for whatever in terms of sport sedans girls generally speaking have a much stronger preference for BMW over Lexus. Does anyone have an explanation to this pheonomenon? I recommended him to stick with Lexus since he is more in the market for a luxury vehicle which will be reliable for many years to come.

goodegg · May 2006

Buy the Lexus

dhanley · May 2006

Funny. At a party recently we had a simialr conversation and the result was the opposite. I suppose it's a matter of local culture. I'd definitely get the 300i, but i'd alos prefer to wait for the coupe next year with the turbo-6.

dave

blueguydotcom · May 2006

My current girlfriend saw my car the first night we went out and said simply: "oh cool, we had a bmw." Then she saw the manul and added, "A stick! You really like to drive."

lexus_jn · May 2006

I'm surprised because I thought it's the opposite. While there's a split of opinions among the guys, most of the girls that I know seem to prefer Lexus more than other brands including BMW. However, IMHO, Lexus is not as agressive as BMW & Porsche when it comes to pure performance. Both brands (Lexus & BMW) have strengh and weakness and if your friend is a smart buyer he would then pick the BEST car for himself. Following the crowd is just a bad gesture.

Talking about the "luxury" thing, you're right on. Lexus along with Porches & Mercedes are rated the most prestigious automobile brands by America's wealthy.

http://www.strategiy.com/automobilesnew.asp?id=20060417062103

gordonwd · May 2006

How do you like the switch? I'm finally moving on from my 98 A4 quattro 6 cylinder, and waiting for delivery of my 325i, which is now on the ocean....

The only time you'll miss your A4 is when it snows, and then only if you stick with the stock all-seasons on the 325i instead of full snows. I have yet to put real snow tires on mine, and it's still been acceptable here since we have had little snow the last two years (Detroit area). OTOH, I am not sure how the run-flat all-seasons do on the newer models.

The 325i will also be an upgrade in terms of various cool gizmos and features that weren't around in '98. BTW, I envy you your new-car anticipation -- I really like ordering a car to my specs and then watching and waiting for it to be built & shipped.

sacul · May 2006

Hello all,

I am currently looking for an AWD entry-level luxury sedan and have narrowed my search down to the following vehicles:

Lexus IS 250 AWD
BMW 325xi
Mercedes-Benz C280 4Matic

Any feedback regarding price, dealerships, performance, safety, etc. is welcome.

Thanks in advance for your input, it is appreciated.

Luke

lovemyclk · May 2006

The MB is about at the end of it's platform cycle with a new C-Class on the horizen. New engine series (280/350) has been a major plus. A fine sedan that has been around to have most kinks worked out. Interior design getting a bit dated compared to the BMW and Lexus.

The Lexus and BMW are brand new platforms and both are appealing in distinct ways. I must say that the Lexus is designed for humans that are not much over 6'tall up front and "Hobbit-like" in the rear. Rear seat is useful only for your briefcase or groceries... in other words, practically useless.

The BMW has a more friendly cabin size-wise and exemplifies the superb BMW driving traits of overall performance balance they are known for. Everything works in harmony (steering, braking, engine, handling) to deliver a terrific driving experience. The Lexus is its own interpretation of the BMW experience that may also appeal to you.

That said, I'd certainly drive all three under conditions similar to your real-world requirements to develop your own opinion. Imagine living with each one and using in a manner that best reflects your needs... hauling additional people, kids, cargo, etc. Beyond that, imagine each of the three sitting in your driveway and determine which one most appeals to you given the right color and option combo.

Also, bring a reference CD to test the sound system during your test-drive as well. I'm sure the total dealer and test-drive experience will help to tilt you in the right direction for you.

tayl0rd · May 2006

...in comparison the Chrysler ... does not have memory settings for the steering wheel or a power adjustable steering wheel...

...Chrysler 300C AWD- 41,051.00 Includes CD Navigation System...

Where are you getting your information? All of that is incorrect and I'm surprised that NO ONE caught that! The 300C does have memory settings/power adjustable steering wheel. It also has DVD based satellite navigation.

Something else it has that the Infiniti does not (as standard OR optional) is power adjustable pedals, Displacement-On-Demand, a V8, etc. So, please try to keep the M35 propaganda to a minimum; especially when you're touting incorrect information.

wco81 · May 2006

Doesn't Benz still have reliability issues?

I was looking between the BMW and Lexus but both have drawbacks, at least from my POV.

BWM is too expensive to repair and maintain past warranty and those run-flat tires are a drag.

Lexus is too cramped in the back and its tires also sound like they have limited durability.

lovemyclk · May 2006

WRT reliability issues for MB, this is the last year for the current C-Class platform and it is not going to leave you stranded. The New C350 is a real performer in "Sport" configuration.

If you plan on keeping the car more than 4 years, then long-term reliability can be a deciding factor. You still have to live with whatever you select every day of those 4 years, so select what you really "want" to drive.

The BMW will not cost you a cent to maintain for 4 years - not for brakes, windshield wiper inserts or oil changes. Not sure if the RF tires are an option, but BMW did tune the suspension for the firmer sidewall characteristics.

The Lexus is just too small, but is a decent design and is a high quality piece. BTW, so is the BMW, so it boils down to selecting what best fits your driving/passenger/performance needs. I'd personally select the BMW, but if not in a hurry, I'd wait to see the next-gen MB.

primetime79 · May 2006

OVER THE LAST FEW HOURS I HAVE SCANNED NUMEROUS DISCUSSIONS AND REVIEWS ABOUT LUXURY SPORTS SEDANS. I KNOW ALL YOU BMW FANATICS THINK BMW IS " THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE," BUT DON'T YOU THINK THE 330I IS A BIT UNDERPOWERED. IT'S 0-60 SECONDS TIME IS ABOUT THE SAME AS A HIGH END 2007 TOYOTA CAMRY AND MY WIFE 2005 NISSAN PATHFINDER (6.6 SECONDS).
$$ FOR $$ I THINK THIS CAR IS WAY OVERPRICED AND UNDERPOWERED.
DOES ANYONE AGREE? MAYBE WITH THE UPCOMIN RELEASE OF THE 335I, BMW HAS TAKEN NOTE TO THIS?

potemkin · May 2006

Shhhhh.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

People who bray on and on about the cost of BMWs haven't put much effort into getting one. I paid less than 36k for my 06 330i with an msrp over 41k (leather, sport, comfort access, pdc). I couldn't even order an Is350 with a manual or any options i want and certainly not for less than 36k.

Which company has the overpriced car? yeah, Lexus. by a long shot.

mikeinmd · May 2006

Regarding pricing and value, specifically between Lexus IS and BMW 3 series, here is an example (from a reviewer) worth noting:

"The IS 350 I drove, with $8,000 worth of Luxury Package, 18-inch wheels, Nav, and Mark Levinson audio, was $44,000. This suggests that Lexus is going toe-to-toe with BMW.

But this isn't really the case, because it doesn't take into account the significantly higher level of content on the IS. Even the base IS 250 with a price of $30,580 has leather, 10-way power seats, keyless access and ignition, a CD changer, an auto-dimming rearview mirror, and metallic paint standard. All of these are optional on the BMW 325i. Adding just the leather, keyless system, and metallic paint to the BMW boosts its price, already $1,000 higher than that of the Lexus, to $3,400 higher than that of the Lexus. Adjusting for remaining feature differences boosts that gap even further, to $4,400.

The gap is even larger, about $5,000, with the uplevel engines."

blueguydotcom · May 2006

Like I said, I ordered an 06 330i with 6 speed manual, leather, sport package, xenons, power seats/roof, comfort access (keyless ignition/entry) and pdc (park distance control) for less than 36k - MSRP of 41k. The exact car and color I wanted.

Now, try going to Lexus and ordering an IS350 with the sport package and xenons. Best of luck on getting that car. When I visit the Lexus site it won't even show me a sport package equipped car. I called dealerships and they all offered to order the car for me - with a deposit and zero info on its delivery time. Better luck still getting that car in the exact color you want and for less than msrp.

You're looking at over 39.7k - assuming a dealer will try to "order" (can't really order a Lexus) an IS350 for you that way. Of course he's gonna demand a deposit, it may take from 4-8 months to get the car and service isn't free (add at least another $1500 for service - brakes, oil changes, tune ups- over 45k miles).

So, no the Lexus IS350 isn't in the same ballpark as a 330i as I wanted one. It wasn't even close. My 330i cost considerably less than the IS350 with sport/xenons, which if it ever arrived would have been crippled by an automatic transmission.

habitat1 · May 2006

With all due respect to those that might shop both the IS350 and 330i and make the decision based upon price, I think you're in the minority.

Neither of these cars are inexpensive and the purchase decision is likely to be based upon personal preference, not a couple thousand dollars. With respect to the IS and 330, at least to me, they are very different in their driving character. I really don't think these cars are seriously cross shopped as much as this forum might suggest. Casually cross shopped, maybe. But if you prefer BMW handling, steering and driving dynamics, it's unlikely that 300 hp stuffed into an automatic sedan with a Lexus suspension is going to get you to switch your preference. And if you prefer Lexus interior aesthetics and ample electronic do dads, along with exceptional relability, you're probably not going to switch your preference to a more spartan drivers car.

So, my guess is that the price/value debate is more of a friendly joust than a real factor for 90% of buyers. Lexus could sell the IS350 for $20k and I won't buy an automatic sport sedan. Not picking on Lexus - I wouldn't even buy the $85k M5 SMG for a similar discount.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

Hey, I wouldn't have bought the lexus if it were 8k cheaper then my 330i. I hated the way it drove - zero roadfeel, numb steering, understeer, soft-suspension, etc. That it was more expensive and couldn't easily be ordered made it easy.

wvelez · May 2006

May I ask how you were able to get such a big discount, and from where? Thanks.

blueguydotcom · May 2006

European delivery. I was taking a vacation there anyway...decided to pick up a car.

mikeinmd · May 2006

My last post was simply addressing the MSRP vs MSRP discussion. If you want to talk handling and auto tranny, those are separate discussions.

Price is not a "real" factor to "90%" of buyers? I think your percentage is unrealistic. In my opinion, folks with no regard for price are probably looking at DB9's (I would be).

Specific to BMW pricing, paying north of 40K for a car and then having to pay extra for "metallic paint" and leather is a financial slap in the face - I would not buy it on principle.

I know these companies try to max their profit, and if someone whated to pay 50K they would be happy to take it....even with the CD changer in the glove box or "keyless" ignition that requires a key to be inserted, etc.

P.S. I do not own a Lexus, but probably will in '07, and I have, previously, considered/test drove a 3 series.

kdshapiro · May 2006

" Price is not a "real" factor to "90%" of buyers?"

When one is talking 42K and beyond price a few thousand here or there will not make a substantial difference. MSRP to MSRP is meaningless because it says nothing about how much the car actually costs OTD in your situation especially in a lease vs buy scenario.

Most people do not cross-shop only on price, generally feature/function/form enter the decision as well. As blueguy noted above, he picked up his 330i for 36K. Try picking up an IS350 for that. If Lexus was your thing you'd end up with an IS250.

mikeinmd · May 2006

As blueguy noted above, he picked up his 330i for 36K. Try picking up an IS350 for that.

Would I have to fly to Japan?

MSRP is only "meaningless" if someone does not like the BMW comparison. It is not meaningless to me - and the content, dollar for dollar, was clearly stated in a previous post.

We all have our own defination of "substantial" (difference in price).

Bluedot has been promoting Euro delivery for (at least) the two years I have followed these forums...
But, why should someone have to fly to another continent to get a "decent" price on a car? A "reasonable" price should be available here in the US.

Again, if I would pay more for a Lexus (vs. Euro delivery of a BMW) it looks much more reasonable (to me) due to the features/content, build quality/reliability, customer service, etc. (not based on my opinion but the hundreds of opinions available on Edmunds forums and across the Internet.

When all is said and done, the BMW owners (like yourself) will find their personal reasons to buy a BMW and Lexus owners/admirers will do the same. (and, of course, these market forces help to keep a healthy competition (price and otherwise) - to our benefit.

Happy motoring

kdshapiro · May 2006

"It is not meaningless to me"

My guess as to why it's meaningless is that you actually pay MSRP. As I don't pay MSRP, I evaluate feature/function/form/price. In other words I decide whether a vehicle is worth it or not.

"But, why should someone have to fly to another continent to get a "decent" price on a car? A "reasonable" price should be available here in the US."

The idea of a European vacation to pick up your car at a discount is a very appealing one indeed.

"Again, if I would pay more for a Lexus"

We each have our own priorities. I would pay for the BMW for the exact reasons you mention.

"When all is said and done, the BMW owners (like yourself) will find their personal reasons to buy a BMW and Lexus owners/admirers will do the same"

Yes agreed.

primetime79 · May 2006

I GUESS EVERYONE IS HUNG UP ON THE WHOLE MSRP AND VALUE THING. I GUESS THE BOTTOM LINE IS VALUE IS IN THE EYE OF THE PURCHASER. THAT BEING SAID NO ONE ADDRESSED MY QUESTION ABOUT BMW BEING UNDER POWERED. I PERSONALLY THING THIS IS A LEGITIMATE CONCERN. A 330I IS NOW RELATIVELY AS FAST AS A 2007 TOYOTA CAMRY AND NOT MUCH FASTER THAN MY WIFES 2005 NISSAN PATHFINDER. WHATEVER HAPPENED TO "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE." TO JUST MAKE UP AN EXCUSE AND SAY THAT THIS IS ONLY ONE ASPECT OF THE DRIVING EXPERIENCE IS INADEQUATE. BMW NEEDS TO STEP IT UP HERE. PERSONALLY I THINK THEY HAVE TAKEN NOTE OF THIS WITH THE NEW 335I. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? THIS WAS ONE OF THE PRIMARY REASONS I DID NOT BUY THE 330I BESIDES THE UNDERSTATED INTERIOR. THE CAR FOR A COMPANY OF THIS CALIBERS REPUTATION FEELS EXTREMELY SLOW ON ACCELERATION.

lovemyclk · May 2006

Please stop YELLING! Why not consider a used Camaro Z28 if 0-60 is your criteria? BTW, I would be thrilled to take an '06 330i to any circuit you desire and run it against any flavor of Camry. 1st, the BMW is much quicker than you seem to think and the second the road changes direction... buh-bye.

My '03 530SP is not only quick, but one heck of a driver's car. Enough so that everyone who has ridden in or driven it comments favorably about the total experience... from acceleration to handling to steering and braking. The 330i is a lighter vehicle and will only add to this.

If you don't get it after reading this forum, nothing any of us can say will convey our reasoning to you. Oh, BTW, guess all the world's auto journalists must have their heads in the sand as well ;-)

primetime79 · May 2006

Just the response I exepected... I am not discounting any of the other areas BMW excels in. I am merely trying to get everyone else input in terms of the power/acceleration of the car. BMW builds and excellent car, but this is one area IMHO they can historically have always led in but have now fallen afew notches in my books. So please no more mountain, curvy, wavy road nonsense. I don't when last I drove on a windy road that I can actually open up my car. SO please don't get defensive and address the power/acceleration concern specifically...

kdshapiro · May 2006

"So please no more mountain, curvy, wavy road nonsense."

Obviously there are varying points of view out there. BMWs are not underpowered, I wouldn't think of the new M5 as being underpowered in any sense of the word. The M3 is not underpowered, the new twin turbo 335 isn't underpowered, the 330i is not underpowered nor is the 325.

It doesn't seem like you have had the opportunity to really see what the 330i is capable of. You should give it a shot, instead of relying on raw HP ratings to derive a sense of how the car really drives.

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