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I can understand why it felt slow...it can get to 60 in under 5 secs. :confuse The M3 will run rings around most cars especially the IS350, it is not meant to be a Lexus it is meant to be a BMW, which is why the level of luxury is different by design than on the IS350.
At any rate, you vote with your dollars and after all your opinion *is* your opinion.
And please, no more 0-60 nonsense! Why not a Subie WRX STi or Lancer Evolucion? Gee, they don't have the requisite levels of luxury, but sure are a kick to drive (fast)! Also cheaper to purchase than a 330i or IS350. There are enough options for today's buyer to purchase any narrow profile of vehicle they choose. What ever is best for you is what you park in your garage.
BMW's are built by people who relish driving fast. BTW, just wondering... what are acceptable performance stats to you? Don't equate price with "levels of luxury", but try "levels of engineering and quality of components".
Where do you get that? It's patently false: I own an e90 with comfort access (keyless ignition) and the fob never leaves my pocket. I walk up to the car, open the door and press START. That's all.
Is this really true? I test drove 3-series before at 3 different dealers but had never seen or heard something like that. All I rememeber was that you have to insert the key into the slot if you want start up the engine with a push button. Guess the keyless ignition thing you're talking about is optional and does not come as standards.
I was referring to the nominal relative price difference between a well equiped 330i and IS350. They are both in the same ballpark price wise. But they are quite different cars, with the former emphasizing overall driving dynamics, the latter luxury amenities. If one is already prepared to spend $40k +/-, I don't think most folks would disregard their preferences to save 5% either way.
As many others have pointed out, you are overemphasizing the importance of straight line acceleration to overall performance and driving satisfaction, at least among the demographic that has graduated from stop light racing. You can strap rockets to a soap box and get it to 60 faster than a Ferrari.
BMW's philosophy has always been "make the sespension faster than the car". If you don't buy that "nonsense" then GM and Ford have lots of cars just for you.
Has BMW "fallen" a couple of notches in power/acceleration? I don't think so. Others have tried to make 0-60 the metric of comparison. BMW makes a 5 passenger M5 that matches my 911S in straight line acceleration and runs circles around anything out of Japan in handling. The M3 that you "absolutely love" will still be a joy to drive for another 20 years, even if it's not the fastest car on the road then, just like a slower Ferrari 328 still is today. Mashing your foot into the floor of an overpowered, under-suspensioned automatic is a short lived thrill. And if your wife heads you in that direction because of her need for the latest in electronic do-dads and amenities, I wish you the good fortune to be able to afford two cars.
I will bring this back on track and ask is handling everything. Others have brought up reliability. I've brought up interior space. Many Lexus and G35 lovers like to bring up 0-60.
That's my question for the BMW 3 series sedan as well as others in this discussion. Is handling everything?
Not at all. Otherwise, we'd be driving elises, or we'd find some way to bring over an ariel atom.
For me, what's great about the BMW is the overall balance. The handling is superb, yet the ride is not very harsh. Power is good, but the engine is not thrashy and the car still achieves good fuel economy. The car is roomy inside(you may argue this) yet it maintains a efficient outside package. The reliability is good. The interior is quite good. The resale is strong.
IMO( again, just my opinion ) every other car in the category fails on at least one of these points, typically more, and for that reason, i wouldn't consider that car. The g35 gets bad fuel economy, the engine is thrashy, and it feels just a bit ponderous to me. The TL has nose-heavy FWD handling. The CTS has a pretty bad interior. The a4 is very nose heavy and the back seat is tight. All IMO and not reasons someone else shouldn't consider that car.
Think of it this way: Michael Jordan wasn't the best in the league at any one of his specific overall skills. But his overall package was tough to beat.
dave
Nearly. Roadfeel, feedback, glued-to-the-road feeling, oversteer, balance, composure, ease at 140+ - all of this is part of handling in my eyes. This is where the 3 series stands tall amongst the competition.
People buy for many reasons. What I wrote above is the exact reason I bought a second BMW.
I wasn't comparing an M3 to anything, I was just noting it was part of the 3 series (to some underpowered 3 series) and BMW has all the hp you want, just in a different dollar strata than Lexus. In addition, there was some commentary on the apparent "slowness" of the M3. Some of the hp issues will most likely be a non-issue with the arrival of the 335. With the G37 arriving the Lexus may be last in the 0-60 and hp category.
In this price range I'd rather have the Mercedes. Still king of the autobahn.
Also, BMW dealers treat you like a whale, and that is something you do not hear very often :mad:
If you ask me, I like MB's ride much better than any other cars and its limitation is not easily reached on any public road and in the hands of average drivers.
But, why buy a MB while I can buy a Lexus with all the saling points of the MB plus what MB is lacking, reliability :P
That is an opinion masquerading as fact.
"Also, BMW dealers treat you like a whale"
And Lexus dealers treat you like a shrimp, and Ford dealers treat you like a cow, and Toyota dealers treat you like a....
Far too small of a car for the price tag. I love driving a great car, but if I have to sacrifice being able to live a real-world life to squeeze into something that small, just not worth it.
He's right! I still have the scar from the harpoon!
Seriously, though, not only haven't I heard that often, I've never heard it. What does it mean?
Amen to that.
When I test drove a 330, within a minute I was telling myself I could get used to the tight fit. Like trying on a pair of Italian loafers when you know you got a wide foot, and trying to convince yourself it ain't that tight.
It's as if they'd choose rosanne barhr/tom arnold over petra nemcova/johnny depp. Size is what matters,right?
shrug.
From what I have heard, it seems to be the facts more or less.
Just keep in mind that the reliability is a relative measurement.
No comparison, no reliability issue whatsoever :P
I know every other car dealer in the world gives their vehicles away for just a handshake and your word.
Why are you here then? Most 'sedans' aren't small.
When was the last time you were in a car at 140+ mph?
I hope you don't commute anywhere near me !!!
He was doing a buck forty in his new 330i just a few weeks ago. Oh the joys of European Delivery (been there, done that, got the Tee-Shirt, can't wait to do it again). I seriously pity those that don't see the value in saving $5,000 off of MSRP and at the same time being able to drive their new BMW in its native environment. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I kinda have to agree with this. It's just that if the 330 is to small, than so is the TL and so is the G and so is the Lexus...etc. The CTS is the biggest vehicle, but the trade-off is the handling.
The downside --- on the Autobahn (the unlimited speed limit areas) when there is an accident the question is not number of injuries but number of bodybags (as I remember for the few years I lived in Bavaria, near Munchen).
Maybe I am just getting older and don't feel the need to pull those kind of G's...
I agree that most 'sedans' aren't small - but this is a "performance sedans" forum, and "performance sedans" are small.
I averaged the internal seating dimensions of the Infinity G35, Acura TL, Lexus IS, Mercedes C-Class, and Cadillac CTS and compared the results with the BMW 3-series internal seating dimensions:
Avg: Fr Headrm-38.7"; Fr Shoulder rm-55.7"
BMW: Fr Headrm-37.4"; Fr Shoulder rm-55.4"
Avg: Rr Headrm-37.2"; Rr Shoulder rm-54.8"; Rr Leg rm-32.8"
BMW: Rr Headrm-37.1"; Rr Shoulder rm-55.1"; Rr Leg rm-34.6"
So how is it that the 3-series is too small yet the other cars in this discussion are OK?
Regarding your "Downside", the AutoBahns in Germany have long been known as the number one safest limited access highways anywhere in the world. Period, full stop, the end. Even the statistics accrued here in the U.S.A. during the "Double Nickel" era were no match for the safety of the Autobahns during the same period.
As for body bags, I'm afraid your facts are in error here too. Those roadways are constructed in such a way that the vast majority of high speed accidents see all involved simply "walk away" from the wreck.
As for "Gs", ummm, I hate to tell you, but at 140 you're experiencing the same G forces as if you were sitting in your easy chair watching the PGA tour.
Best Regards,
Shipo
("western" refers to areas of the Autobahn in former West Germany (FRG).
"Rolf Fischer, a Mercedes test driver who was sentenced in February to 18 months in prison for reckless driving on the autobahn that resulted in the death of a young mother and her child. The ensuing media storm increased awareness of autobahn dangers..."
As far am I am concerned, the Germans can drive any speed they want. In any case, I don't want to be on a road where you or bluedot are doing 140+....(or any speed while you are figuring out iDrive).
Back to the topic, any opinions on what is coming in '07?
P.S. "you are experiencing 1G while standing still on the Earth's surface"
So can the claim of an anonymous person on the internet.
dave
Wow, I'm of the opinion the e46 and e90 are too large. The e46 was a bit too big for my tastes. The e90 is massive. It's the second biggest problem I have with my e90 - the first being that the car is way too soft even with a sport package. A salesman at my dealership said he loved the e90 because it felt so refined; that's thr exact reason I find the e90 pretty darn boring (compared to what I want from a car, compared to the competition, well it's got zero peers right now).
I hope you don't commute anywhere near me !!!
Throughout April I drove my car in Europe. 140 isn't unusual on the autobahn, autostrada, french toll roads, etc.
BTW, I've cruised at over 130 on my way to Vegas more than once. Short drive when you average over 100 mph. Same goes for the drive from LA to SF/Sac on I-5. Nothing out there.
What's the best price one can get on a TL? 31k? Edmunds says 32k for a TL with manual. Carsdirect offers 31.4k. I'll believe carsdirect. Good price. But remember service isn't included. We'll be nice and add only 1k for service over 4 years/50k miles. 32.4k. Good price. My 06 330i was 3.3k more expensive. Not 10k.
Personally, 3k is not enough to sway me toward fwd. Especially on a car as large as a TL. To each his own but 10k is stretching credibility...by alot.
Hmmm, a single report huh? Well you have to be very careful with your numbers. True, "roadway" fatalities between the U.S.A. and Germany are nearly identical and have been for some time. I'm currently looking at 2003 statistics and the U.S.A. actually has a very small edge in that we suffer roughly 9.4 fatalities per one billion kilometers driven versus 9.7 in Germany. That having been said, those statistics are for ALL roads in the referenced country. When you limit the statistics to just the "Motorway", the U.S.A. suffers 5.2 fatalities per one billion kilometers while Germany slides in at 3.8, a reduction of 27%.
Over the years I've read lots of reports from lots of sources and the closest that I've ever heard (from an anti-autobahn group no less) was about 20% fewer fatalities than the U.S. per given distance. So, with all that said, I must seriously question the veracity of the source you are quoting.
P.S. "you are experiencing 1G while standing still on the Earth's surface"
No kidding, just exactly like when your tooling along with the cruise control set at 140 or when you're in a 747 busting through the air at over 560 mph.
Speaking of AutoBahning with the Cruise Control set, a couple of years back, my wife and I were gliding along with the CC set at a buck thirty and the drama was so intense (Not!) that my wife (someone who doesn't like lots of speed) had no idea how fast we were going. When she found out, she yawned and returned to her book. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I pointed out i wasn't the one who was going to deal with the CHP in this situation, and i went back to my book.
Another time, i hit 137 in her saab. She didn't notice either.
The above shenannigans is less likely to get you killed that gabbing in your cell phone doing 55 on the highway or reaching back to smack your kids.
dave
The 3-series may not fit YOU, but the measurements are not subject to debate.
"maybe it has to do with the $10000 still left in your wallet choosing the TL over the 3."
Why stop there? The Toyota Camry costs $8000 less than the TL. Better yet, for $4000 less than the Camry, I've heard great things about the Hyundai Sonata...
Because those cars are NOT "entry level luxury performance sedans" :P
By no means am I saying that I follow the speed limit ALL the time, but seriously, I hope you or your girlfriend is no where near me or my family when you are driving in such a reckless manner! Personally, I would take my chances with a guy on his cell vs. someone driving that fast near me :mad:
Wow - great price. The dealer around here was about $10K more for a comparably equipped 330i vs. the TL. Hell yea I'd take the 330 for mid 35s. Just wasn't gonna happen.
Maybe the European delivery option will become more feasible down the road, but for now, the TL offers a lot for the money. FWD isn't that big a negative for me.
10k might be an misstatement- 5-6k is more reasonable IMO.
"But remember service isn't included."
True. But who wants their car in the shop every other month? By the time the 3er gets out of warranty or the 50k free maintenance program, oh boy... :P
Nobody does, but then again, who wants a tranny failure?
just checked edmunds with my zip in so cal - 32k.
Add in the cost of flying to Europe to pick up your 330 and those related costs and you are probably over 3k.
Noooo, that's called a vacation. If I didn't want to take a vacation to europe I could have flown in, picked up the car and flown out the same day for less than $700 from so cal - much less from eastern states. Of course frequent flyer miles can make the whole flight free.
True. But who wants their car in the shop every other month? By the time the 3er gets out of warranty or the 50k free maintenance program, oh boy...
I'll take in the shop once a month over FWD and a large size any day. My last 3 series spent probably a month total in the shop. I wouldn't have traded that for 5k in savings and a TL. Not a chance. there's that much of a driving difference.
The person doing 100+ passes you in a flash. If people in the USA obeyed the worldwide (save for the uk and those jerks in switzerland) view that the left lane is for faster traffic, you wouldn't have to worry. Left lane campers ruin driving and endanger everybody. If people would keep to the right we'd all be safer. Unfortunately, the cell phone people camp out in the left lane, talk with their kids, watch dvds and in general ignore everything going on behind them. And in front of them too!
Argh...nearing a rant. Regardless, I'm far more afraid of people involved in something other than driving - drinking, eating, talking on the cell phone. Those people scare the blazes out of me.
I never said anything about driving in a reckless manner.
1) I've had two repair on my 328i at 115K miles.
2) My overall repair cost is similar to friends who also track their expenses for their domestic/japanese cars. BMW's space the services out, so they individually cost more, but they cost per mile is not going to make the entry-lux buyer go broke.
dave