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Dude, if that's what you are looking for then I'll have to say that you are looking at cars in the wrong segment then. Maybe you should check out the ES350 or MB C-class. An Acura TL should probably do it for you as well but some would argue that the IS350 has a softer right than the TL.
It is funny that you said you want a smooth and quiet ride but at the same time the 2 vehicles that you are comparing have the least smooth and quiet ride within the class.
Kind of like going into a French bakery looking for the lowest calorie breakfast. Get a Lexus ES or Toyota Avalon. Add pillows on the drivers seat.
I agree with nyccarguy in that I am scared of owning a BMW with iDrive out of warranty. I know that at least one of the BMW faithful on these boards has stated that he only leases BMW's for a similar reason.
Would an extended warranty make you guys comfortable with owning a BMW longer-term? Or is the issue more that routine maintenance is also very expensive and that is only covered for the first 4 years regardless of extended warranties?
I would also not use the three of four opinions here as a benchmark for the reliability of any manufacturer.
Repairing a Lexus and BMW for a similiar problem will have similiar costs. Estimating a brake job on a 4year old 335 vs a 4 year old Corolla, will obviously have very different costs associated with it. If you believe the extended warranty will cover the areas prone to failure the extended warranty is a good deal.
I really love the new coupes also. I leased an '06 330xi last December. As in very nameplate, the cars improve each year but also get more complex, ergo, warrantee gets more valuable as we move through the years.
I would definatly get extended warrantee to cover ownership for any of the higher cost cars. They are expensive, however. If you calculate the cost of extended warrantee over an additional 4 year period and add in the routine stuff not covered, I'll extimate $100/month is fair guess over the period.
You pay more to lease but do not pay extra for the maintenance since you trade before warrantee expiration. If you buy the car, you need to keep it at least 6 years to be ahead of the lease on average. But if you get a major problem without coverage, the pendulum swings the other way.
I always purchased but changed to the lease option exactly because of this. Also, I know I pay more (depending on miles driven) but I do not worry about major issues and the BMW warrantee is top shelf. Then at the end, the fun is choosing a "new and improved" model.
Have fun and hope you get the car you enjoy and best of luck.
I always purchased but changed to the lease option exactly because of this. Also, I know I pay more (depending on miles driven)
Are we talking crazy high miles? Because 15k lease is far cheaper than the actual depreciation hit a 3 series takes. My last BMW lease saved me at least 2500 compared to the cost of selling the car after 3 years of ownership.
For my part, ending up with an Avalon Touring after shopping both the TL and G35, the Avalon and TL both at about 30k the G35 a few thousand more. The G35 definitely the only one that I would define as a performance car, it is a hoot to drive but at the price of the fit/finish and luxury levels found in the TL/Avalon. The TL, a muuch rougher ride - the Avalon the surprise I didn't anticipate - a car that will run with either of the other two (until the road gets really curvy), much larger and more comfortable, trading off some of that 'handling' for a far better ride. The Touring model definitely the trim line of choice, more tightly sprung and perhaps a little more 'fun'. Not sure though that 6 second 0-60 or 100 mph quarters necessarily makes it a 'performance' sedan though - don't think that is possible in a FWD car.
You are on target on price. Is350 the same as the 335, TL coming in at about $34, with the base G35 at $30Kish. Of course no one will ever get a base G35.
Add automatic, leather, keyless start, and metallic paint to the 335i sedan, and you're already looking at $43,100.
P.S. 3 is the most reliable out of all BMWs, I would be comfortable with owning one.
Pretty simple math:
330i - MSRP of 43k. I negotiated a sale price of 39.9k. If I bought the car that'd be 44k out the door.
My lease was 485 a month for 36 months, for a total of 17.4k.
At lease return my model was selling for 24k but the residual was 24.6k. That's a 19.6k hit.
I see a $2200 difference there (not including loan interest if I didn't buy the BMW for cash).
P.S. I too prefer to lease but found it more expensive then buying for cash and then trading the car in for a new one.
If buy you pay taxes. If you lease you pay taxes on the portion you use. So, when I compare the two options, taxes play a huge role. Buy the car, you're down 44k, lease the car and you pay only taxes on the portion you use.
Taxes aside and lets say the selling price after 3 years is 24, would make the difference of 15.9 (39.9-24).
No. You have to pay the taxes. No way around it. Not sure what planet you're on but if you buy a 40k car, you're paying those taxes up-front.
P.S. I too prefer to lease but found it more expensive then buying for cash and then trading the car in for a new one.
no way. If you negotiate a crappy lease, sure. But given BMW's propped up leasing model, I come out ahead easily on leasing. BMW overvalues their cars residuals and usually gives you a decent MF. Bimmers lose about 20% of their value in year 1 - taxes included because you can't avoid paying them on a purchase.
Secondly, trading in a car you lose even more. That's giving thousands away. Trading-in a car you're talking about another 2-3k difference in price from private-party resale. Trade-in value of my 03 330i was hovering in the low 20s. I woulda taken a bath: as will any person who trades-in a late-model car to a dealership.
Again, if you lease you always pay more, at lease the money factor if you are good negotiator.
Could never understand the logic of leasing unless, of course, you really don't drive much or really want a new car every 3 years or so. Many of my friends have cars on leases and will usually brag about that fictious lease 'sales' price, and then find halfway thru the lease or so that they can't use the car nearly as much as they want to, and ultimately are hit with mileage and/or damage chargebacks at lease end that forces the refinance of the residual on an actual purchase for several thousand more than what the car is really worth. Or is all rolled into another lease - a self-perpetuating problem, that sooner or later, has to be bought out of.
In any event, although a good lease can minimize your monthly out-of-pocket, it will never be cheaper than an actual purchase, and a cash price remains really the only way to determine a car's actual sell price. And you are right, the only thing that dealers like better than late model trades is the service depts. - this is where they really make their money.
Not replying directly to you captain2, just continuing the trail.
The true financial advantage on leasing comes from, as blueguydotcom pointed out, the saving on sales tax. Unfortunately, even this saving is often largely offset by the so-called acquisition fee ($600-$900) up front and termination fee ($350 to $600) at lease end. In some States, sales tax is levied on the selling price of the vehicle.
Leasing can be a better deal than purchasing only when there is factory subsidy that is not available/applicable to purchase (for example, artificially high residual). Otherwise, lease is almost always more expensive than purchase. The reason is plain and simple: no dealer or bank would share with you the cost of ownership of a vehicle.
But for individuals, leasing is "virtually 100%" more expensive in the long run over a purchase.
If you buy and keep the car over 6 years, you probably are flirting with 100K so depreciation levels out in the later years but basically the maintenance/repair costs increase fast. The resale is low and hit is high vs. original cost.
The savings in buying comes after year 6 but the car is basically getting tired in at least some major drive train parts. But if the car stays sound, you start saving in repair costs.
Rocky
any car these days should have minimal maintanence costs at 6 yrs/72000 miles, if that is the assumption on miles driven and length of loan. Unless, of course, you are driving something like a BMW or MB, which owners should trade off before the warranty/free service periods expire.
A friend had an older 328 (before BMW had to offer their service program). Nothing really wrong with the car, took it in for the 40000 mile 'scheduled' service and got it back $2300.00 later - absurd - since when do 'simple' brake jobs cost $1200.00 and 'simple' tuneups $600.00! Although the German cars do maintain high values used, the gross dollar hit is ludricrous compared with most of the 'Japanese' makes - the reason why the lease rates tend to be much higher. But, in any case - most of the real money saved by purchasing is actually realized after the vehicle is paid off, so that from a financial standpoint it does make sense to accelerate that process as much as possible, even if your monthly bill is doubled.
That's dependent on state. In CA your trade-in does not count for squat on taxes. Trade in a 40k car for a 40k car and you're still down 4k on taxes.
Second, the residual value after 3 year lease is very close to trade in, for BMW that is.
I've owned a couple BMWs now. There's a pervasive myth they don't lose much value.
And please don’t quote me KBB or Edmunds as they are not even close on some models and makes. I spend my share on dealers auctions and I can assure you BMW in a good condition will bring good money.
Not from what I see. BMWs lose insane amounts of value quickly. After year 3, like everything else, the slide slows.
Again, if you lease you always pay more, at lease the money factor if you are good negotiator.
Babble that's just ignorant. I've proven you wrong already... you're talking but not making any sense. You're using terms like "always" and yet you don't seem to understand them. My last lease, I saved thousands leasing. Expressly because the car took a huge hit on depreciation and the tax savings.
Check the bimmer boards. People have been getting over-invoice deals on the 335i already. BMWs are a commodity, just like a Honda Fit. Massive competition - essentially anyone paying MSRP for one is getting taken for a ride.
2007 BMW 335i (zip code: 30360, Metro Atlanta):
MSRP: $41295 (including $695 destination charge)
TMV: $41295
So yes, apparently for right now the new 3-coupe is selling around the sticker.
I know people like blueguydotcom will come back with the ED option which allows one to get one below invoice. However, I think with the ED, one should also take the airplane ticket, hotel cost, and any misc cost into consideration. I am pretty sure that if one can get a good deal on the ticket and hotel the overall cost should still come below the non-ED price but it would not be that significant.
It's not that people are lazy to pick up their cars in Europe. However, I don't like the idea that I have to wait 3 month (or is it 6?) for my car to arrive after I picked it up. Also, a trip to Europe is just not as attractive to me comparing to a trip to China or Taiwan. But that's just me.
Living in socal we've got BMW dealerships on all over. There's so much competition that a car like the 335i starts getting negotiated prices below MSRP before they're ever delivered.
I agree with you on that if people truly want to land a great deal they should shop around the coutry. When I bought my IS350 back in April I found out that I can get probably another $1000 to $1500 off the deal I got in Atlanta if I buy it from dealers in Cali. However, with the school and many interviews lining up back them, a trip to Cali to pick up the car just seems not logical to me. Also, since I was planning to finance my car for at least 4 years, $1000 difference (about 20 dollars per month) is just not that significant after all. The bottom line is: would I want to get a better deal than the one I got ($1500 off MSRP)? Yes. But after taking everything into consideration, it seems more reasonable for me to buy it from my local dealership.
(1) I agree that you need to draw the value line somewhere when it comes to saving money. My business partner, with a net worth in the solid 8 figure range, considered importing a Honda Accord from Canada a few years ago to save an extra $1,000 on the exchange rate. Needless to say, he's a great lawyer and investor in our company, but I handle the financial decisions. That example aside, I have found it unnecessary to go accross country or outside the country to do a little arbitrage bargaining.
(2) Leasing vs. Buying: blueguydotcom may be an exception, but I always seem to have the strongest negotiating position when I can write a check for an in-stock car and dare the dealer to rip it up. Edmunds TMV on my 2002 S2000 was $36,000 (yes, $3,200 over MSRP). The Saturday before Thanksgiving in 2001, I walked out with one for $32k even. The discount on my 2005 911S Cab was even more substantial. At one year and 10,000 miles, I could sell it for, at worst, $8-9,000 less than I paid for it (about 50% of what the annual lease payments would be). I am in a lucky state that recognizes trade in values on taxes. I am of the general opinion that when you introduce another party to a transaction - i.e. a leasing company or financial institution - they need to make money to stay in business. If, in fact, they have a cost of capital that is significantly below mine, they might be able to do that and still offer me some value in return. But, for a lot of people, that internal cost of capital could be a 6%-7% home equity loan, with the interest being tax deductible. That's hard to beat.
Actually had a dealership tell me straight up if I financed through them and then paid off the loan instantly they'd sell me the car at a lower price. Weird but true.
I totally agree that quite often leasing for the short-term buyer quite often really isn't a great deal without a tax deduction. But there are exceptions.
What bmw board(s) would you recommend?
It will be interesting to see when people start modding the 335. That's one of the beauties of turbo engines! I must admit I would be a bit leery of chipping a BMW--at least if the electrical issues I keep hearing about are true, and especially in a 1st year model which typically get new mappings in subsequent years (which can over-ride the mods)
I was not aware of that, I live in NY and we only pay tax on the difference of the selling price and trade in. You might want to elect a new governor next time around, this is rip-off.
I've owned a couple BMWs now. There's a pervasive myth they don't lose much value. Not from what I see. BMWs lose insane amounts of value quickly. After year 3, like everything else, the slide slows.
I’m telling you how it is in NY, CA may be different. Still don’t get where you getting this from, do you have the data to support your argument , or is it coming from personal experience?
Babble that's just ignorant. I've proven you wrong already... you're talking but not making any sense. You're using terms like "always" and yet you don't seem to understand them. My last lease, I saved thousands leasing. Expressly because the car took a huge hit on depreciation and the tax savings.
I guess you did not read my post or decided to ignore it. Your $2000, so called savings came form $4000 tax, which would not be the case here in NY. How should I know that you getting ripped-off on taxes in CA?
I’m telling you again depreciation is generally in line with residual for BMW. I find it strange that you are so good in negotiating buying price for a new vehicle, but can not negotiate good selling price for vehicle you are selling.
Rocky
Rocky
Replay what you are saying. If the dealer makes MORE money if a buyer finances a car, that must mean the buyer is paying so much in financing costs as to allow the fiancing company to give a kickback to the dealer. And I agree, that may be the case. But when my cost of funds is under 4% after tax, I sure as hell am not going to pay 8%+ on a car loan or a lease money factor that translates to that kind of interest rate.
I haven't tried the idea of financing a car so the dealer gets his cut up front and then paying the loan off immediately thereafter. But I suspect the financing company would get wise to this tactic pretty quickly and put the kabosh on it. Or have a substantial pre-payment penalty / loan fee to the buyer to cover the kickback.
It's pretty simple, really. There is only one source of revenue in this equation - you the buyer. How many businesses do you want to support with your revenues? I don't even deal with sales people any more and, surprise, always get a better deal directly from the sale manager by cutting out that middle person.
Again, I think we agree there are particular circumstances in which you can game the system to your advantage. I wouldn't mind sticking it to a finance company if it didn't cost me anything and the dealer gave me a piece of their kickback. But the payoff needs to be good enough or the free cocktails strong enough for me to spend a couple of hours with finance guy that probably struggled through high school math.
Unlike you, I have financed cars at the dealer, only to pay off the note a few months later. He wins, I win & the (stinkin') bank loses. Boo hoo. I always ask if (& read the fine print to verify) there's any pre-payment penalty. Anyone remember the rule of 78?
I paid straight cash for the car I drive now, but got a better deal on my wife's (newer) vehicle by financing it (for a short time) through the dealer's bank.
Wow - if you need to finance a car thru a lender that's precomputing (front loading) interest (probably illegal now) then you probably are in deep ship financially.
And BTW, banks RARELY lose. They work with the golden rule. He that has the gold rules. As it should be....
And in any case, tell us about your Lexus with no problems that drives like a pig, and BMW owners will tell you about driving.
I have a 2006 e90 330i right now. The brakes grind. The AC stops working. The comfort access works intermittenly.
My 03 330i had a laundry list of problems and some BMW could never fix. Don't patronize me like I'm some kid off the street who has never been around a BMW.
I know exactly one guy who swears by one of his BMWs - an e30 352. His e39 540 on the otherhand has cost him thousands upon thousands for tranny, electrical and brake work.
In my experience going to the salesmanger has saved me hours of time that I could be out spending with my new ride, instead of watching the salesmen ice me with the back n' forth tatic.
Rocky
The new car though has decent performance. Wish ya could get a stick and a bit more power in a high performance version. Perhaps in the near future ? Didn't this car lack pwr seats or something which was a major gripe ?
(off my memory)
Rocky
I know a loaded Passat can well be as nicely equipped as any cars that we discuss here but it just doesn't belong in this group because:
1. VW is not a lux brand
2. A little lacking on the performance side
If we are to add Passat into the discussion we might as well add the followings too:
Honda Accord V6 Manual
Subura Legacy
You honestly don't look at VW as a entry lux-brand like lets say a Acura ? :surprise:
I will be honest and say I'm a lil' bit surprised some would say that. :surprise: I guess when you see the wood interiors and the 3.6 putting out 280 hp. with zero to sixty in 5.9 secs. I guess I'd ask the question of what is a entry performance lux-sedan ? :confuse: I guess I look at VW, as a more upscale car than a Accord or Subaru. The Spec B one could argue belongs couldn't they ??? So this isn't a luxury performance car either ? :surprise:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=208060148&dealer_id=593623&car_year- =2005&search_type=both&num_records=25&make=VOLKS&transmission=&model=PHAETON&dis- tance=0&make2=&address=79029&advanced=&certified=&max_mileage=&max_price=&bkms=1- 160567820950&sort_type=priceDESC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&sta- rt_year=1981&drive=&engine=&fuel=&doors=&style_flag=1&cardist=864
Rocky
A "little"? That's an understatement...
LOL
Rocky