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Toyota Tundra vs. Chevrolet Silverado
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Comments
a set of "dubs" 22s or "jordans" 24s would be a FABULOUS
addition to their vehicle. Along with spinnaz,fart can, and
a wing and would be right a home slo ridin' down any
"urban" street.
But for us folks that actually WORK their trucks that stuff
is about worthless.................
As far as the earlier post about LRs and LCs "offroading"
in far off undeveloped parts of the world.
HELLO.......Those vehicles bear little resemblence (spl)
to their American luxo-barge cousins................
Also a note about the 4 second delay with the GM engines.
Where did that come from???????????
I have owned SEVERAL of these 6.0 powered trucks and am
a member at several GM truck forums and never have heard
a peep about it. Torque mgmt. yes.............
Wanna read about REAL engine and transmission "delay"
issues check out the 07 camry and prius threads here.
REal posts from REAL owners not armchair cowboys like
MOST here.................
Where did that come from??????????? "
From the Edmunds test (which included dyno runs of the Tundra, Titan, and Chevy):
"Although the spike resulted in a peak of 297 hp at the wheels — about right for the rated 367 hp at the flywheel, once drivetrain loss is factored in — the Silverado's measured power appeared to be underachieving everywhere else in the rev range.
In fact, the Chevy produces significantly less power than the Titan for the duration of the dyno test until the Chevy finally surpasses the Titan's peak of 291 hp at the wheels.
As it turns out, the explanation boils down to an engine calibration strategy. GM calibrated the 367-hp 6.0-liter V8 to remain in stoichiometric "closed-loop" fuel delivery mode for 4 seconds after the throttle is floored. This fueling strategy helps keep emissions in check (and saves fuel) at the expense of reduced power — about 40 hp less at the peak. Once the driver lifts his right foot from the wide-open throttle position, the 4-second clock resets."
In other words, when you floor the GM 6.0, the engine-management system doensn't give you REAL full-throttle for 4 seconds. FOUR SECONDS. And it resets the clock EVERY time your foot comes out of the firewall.
Maybe you should mention the dyno results that Edmunds saw, AND the explanation of this that Edmunds received from GM, on those GM truck forums. When you guys aren't discussing 'dubs' and 'jordans' that is.....
Rocky
P.S. You can get Dubs (22's) from the factory on the EXT
Well I can see their point to some degree because I was able to have the good things in life as a child and teenager because of General Motors and the UAW. I guess they (my family)really believe in loyalty. I had one episode of disloyalty and probably won't ever walk down that path again and yes their are foreign cars I like still but I also believe in doing the right thing not only for my family but also for my country by supporting an american business and american workers that employ more americans than any other automaker.
Rocky
Thanks!
Dascrow
http://www.tundratalk.net/
If Toyota doesn't feel their truck is at risk of falling apart if you use full power, and GM does, than that's sayin' somethin'.
You reap what you sow.
Draw your own conclusions.
And the GM looks like the box the Tundra comes in.
(If the Tundra were smaller.) :P
DrFill
Where did that come from???????????
I have owned SEVERAL of these 6.0 powered trucks and am
a member at several GM truck forums and never have heard
a peep about it. Torque mgmt. yes.............
As rorr noted above Edmunds 'discovered' it in their Tundra, Silvy, Titan comparo last month. It was and is a shock to Silvy 6.0L owners. GM engineers confirmed it exists and is real; c.f. GMInsidenews forums. ( references upon request )
Conspiracy theory #2789: Edmunds received an anonymous tip. Do a dyno on the Silvy :shades:
Rocky
a 4 second delay in the GM engine. What it doesn't
say is that GM told them that................
What they "discovered" is the GM torque mgmt. program
that is programmed in ALL GMs 6.1, 6.2, and 8.1 engines.
Those motors are torque brutes with the low end power to
grenade drivetrain parts. Something those DOHC motors
LACK at low RPMs. Thus the TM program IMO.
If it works for 4 seconds, minutes, days, whatever its
been there..............
The explaination from the link I posted a few posts back
explains it all to me. I wonder if GMpowertrain.com site
has a description on it?????????
Just another Edmunds slant to put the crown on the tundra.
The fact remains that if it's on all the engines you decribed even I have to give the powertrain edge to Toyota, since they don't have to have this artificial feature to prohibit WOT acceleration. :sick:
Rocky
"Once you start down the path of the darkside, forever will it dominate your destiny."
What they "discovered" is the GM torque mgmt. program
that is programmed in ALL GMs 6.1, 6.2, and 8.1 engines.
Those motors are torque brutes with the low end power to
grenade drivetrain parts. Something those DOHC motors
LACK at low RPMs. Thus the TM program IMO.
Which was enough of a surprise that they had to call GM..twice..to get verification that their findings were correct. GM confirmed that they were correct. Interesting to say the least.
You might want to look at the Tundra's HP and TQ curves, with no 4 second protective buffer. They are higher than the theoretical curves of the 6.0L ( without the 4 second buffer ). Conclusion: Physics and mechanics are the same everywhere no matter where a vehicle or engine is built. If this massive torque at low rpms ( higher yet on the Tundra ) can possibly 'grenade' transmission parts then Toyota must have put some hellaciously strong parts into the new Tundra not to need the 4 second buffer.
Vortex Max curves
TQ is about 275 lb-ft @ 1200 rpm
Tundra ... iForce 5.7L TQ/HP curves
5.7L iForce curves
TQ is about 310-315 lb-ft @ 1200 rpm
1. GMC Sierra
2. Chevy Silverado
3. Ford F150
4. Toyota Tundra
5. Nissan Titan
.
.
1,450,000. 1979 Yugo
1,450,001. Dodge Ram
Let's start the next phase of comparisons, can we?
Buying big rims and tires for 1/2 ton trucks is pretty standard issue here. Everytime I go to the mall by my house or Costco, I see all of these trucks -- Silverados, Yukons, and especially Escalades all tricked out with massive tires. But try to find a 1 ton truck with that -- next to impossible.
Besides, everybody here was getting all hot headed about 0-60 numbers and "tuning" or super-charging the engines or using cold-air intakes -- but put big rims and all of a sudden we're in violation of some kind of code?! LOL, gimmie a break!!
BTW, I wouldn't have guessed you hated Dodge so much...
As for the entire package? I am opening that up to discussion. Let the people on here give their opinion on what's important to them other than 0-60 times and other power related items. That topic has run it's course (no pun intended). My point...There is more to the overall quality of a pickup other than HP and Torque, especially in the versatile 1/2 ton size. Of course, since these pickups both offer very similar options, most of this will be opinion based comparisons, but that's ok. I am just sick and tired of the power wars. Even though I do tow a boat with my truck, 80%+ of the miles I put on my truck are "empty" miles, so car-like options and amenities (like ride quality) are very important to me too. And I do know that GM is (and has been) light years ahead of it's domestic competition (Ford and Dodge) in the ride quality arena, don't know about the Tundra, never rode in one.
Why are you surprised that I hate Dodges? Doesn't everybody? haha I have owned one Chrysler product in my life and will never own another one.
I will say that I do like the OnStar system, though I have to say that I'm confused by how OnStar has radio advertisements where someone has locked their keys in their truck with the engine RUNNING! Sorry, but that is a MAJOR design flaw! Every vehicle I've owned since 1988 has had the feature of unlocking automatically when the key is in the ignition. You can only lock it from the inside with the door closed, or from the outside with another key. That doesn't prevent you from locking your keys in the car when they aren't in the ignition, but I thought GM wasn't doing themselves any favor extolling the virtues of OnStar making up for a design flaw.
Still the OnStar system is a great feature to have, especially with having a family. From the pictures, it looks like the 07 Denali is going to be quite nice! I wish that they had a CrewMax-type competitor -- that would virtually seal the deal with me provided the price wasn't too high. Right now, that is the most pressing issue for me; that interior room is valuable!
Someone mentioned in a previous post that the Tundra was wider than every other truck. I saw that, at 79.9" it is the same width as the Silveraldo, so that isn't a concern.
Peragon
It looks like a pretty good solution, but I don't know anybody that has one and would like to know how they like it (I know plenty of people that use caps, but not this...).
And if they are better why do they not offer the features that the Tundra does? You can't even get a F-150 with Vehicle stabilty control and traction cotroland its Standard on all Tundra's!!!!
My 2007' Toyota Tundra CrewMax 4x4 I just built was $52,171.00 :surprise:
The Sierra Denali has Onstar, Heated Steering wheel, Heated Windshield Washer Fluid, 12-way adjustable seats, real wood trim. to name a few that the Tundra doesn't have. I also saw no sliding rear window. The Denali has one that is power retractable.
It would cost me a pile of dough if I even wanted to go to the Dark Side. OMG !!!!! :surprise:
Rocky
The model you selected...
Feature Description Price
8372 4X4 CrewMax Ltd. Short Bed 5.7L V8 6 Spd Auto
$42,575.00
Interior & Exterior Colors
Exterior Color
Feature Color Name
0202 Black
Interior Color
Feature Color Name
LB44 Sand Beige
Selected Options and Packages
Packages
Feature Description Price
EI Dvd Headrest Entertainment System
-By Invision - Includes:
-Integrated Top Loading Dvd
-Two Simulated Leather Headrests With
-7 Inch Lcd Screens
-Video / Audio Input / Output Jacks
-Two Wireless Headphones
$1,995.00
E0 The Extra Mile Option Package E
-Custom Tape Stripe
-First Aid Kit
-Fabric Guard
-Bedmat
-Spare Tire Lock
-Wheel Locks
-Roadside Assistance (3 Yrs/36,000 Miles
-Road Hazard Tire Warranty
-The Extra Mile Service Rewards Program
-(3 Yrs/36,000 Miles)
-(5 Yrs/60,000 Miles
$620.00
TK Toyota Sport Series Edition
-Stainless Steel Exhaust Tip
-Door Sill Enhancements.
-20 Inch Chrome Wheel And Tire Upgrade
-Running Boards
-Custom Carpeted Floor Mats
-Toyota Sport Series Edition Badging
-(Factory Alloy Wheel Credit)
$2,439.00
OF Off Road Package
$70.00
P4 Vehicle Shield Package
-Lusterizing Sealant
-Sound Shield
-Sealant Cleaner
-Rental Car Assistance
$349.00
Miscellaneous
Feature Description Price
TS Custom Tape Stripe
SF Stainless Steel Exhaust Tip
FK First Aid Kit
MG Mud Guards
$60.00
ET Bed Extender
$320.00
BM Ball Mount
$69.00
SL Spare Tire Lock
WL Wheel Locks
DS Door Sill Enhancements.
W1 Molded Dash Applique
$369.00
WT Window Tint
$179.00
XM Xm Satellite Radio Package
-Includes:
-Receiver
-Antenna And Wire Harness
-Waived Activation Fee
-90 Days Of Complimentary Xm Service
$449.00
B2 Bed Liner (Under Rail)
$299.00
RT Remote Start
$529.00
NV Dvd Navigation System w/Backup Monitor,
$1,650.00
PV Permavin/Glass Etch & Limited Warranty
$199.00
Grand Total=$52,171.00 :surprise: -> after seeing it from shock :sick: (dead) :P
Rocky
Rocky
The GM's (Chevy and Sierra) both have Stability control standard on it's crewcabs...Who is comparing F-150's here?
My fully loaded GMC Sierra SLT I have on order has EVERYTHING the Tundra offers and more. And it's not even a Denali. Plus, it was UNDER $40K with the 6.0L and 20" wheels. 2 examples: Rainsense wipers and heated washer fluid.
I will admit the JBL, in the Tundra will sound pretty good. Better than Bose ? Well that is possible, but not likely. It however will be a bit more powerful as I'm not sure how many watts the Bose is. The JBL is 440 watts.
Rocky
I got every possible option except Rear DVD, Navigation, Rear Parking Assist and Power Adjust Pedals, and the price was still under $40K (invoice, which is what I paid). How much is the equiv. Tundra?
Ford and Dodge by far have the worst factory sound out of all the car company's. The Lincoln MKZ, Navigator, MKX, finally have a good system that is THX II Certified and does have 500-Watts of DVD-Audio power. Hopefully the next Lincoln Mark LT will employ this new system :shades:
Rocky
Rocky
Escalade's cabin quietness sets the stage for an extraordinary and unexpected multi-media entertainment experience. A standard Bose® 5.1 Discrete Surround Sound System uses six distinct channels to provide concert quality sound that replicates the experience of a home theater system. Pure sound without distortion makes prolonged listening a pleasure.
Our engineers worked closely with Bose® to design and configure the sound system, optimizing speaker locations and tuning the system specifically for Escalade's interior. The result is superb imaging and spectral response, reproducing the power and nuance of each instrument and voice and delivering music with clarity, spaciousness and detail—for each occupant of the vehicle!
The Sierra Denali has 7 speakers including subwoofer right ?
Rocky
My Denali is here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Whooooooooooooops" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shades:
Rocky
JBL isn't that great either, but a heck of a lot better than Bose and certainly worthy of installing in vehicles. Unfortunately really good audio companies have more interest in after-market sales as opposed to work with auto manufacturers. That is a shame because they could do really well for a lot of people.
9 here in the U.S.
Rocky
JBL, isn't better than Bose, IMHO
Rocky
I got all my info from Toyota.com belias. Go on their and configure one.
Rocky
Above is CrewMax 4x4 pal !!!! Go ahead and finish her up !!!!! :P
Rocky
In other regions you can get the same truck minus the following:
EO - Extra Mile Package..- $620
TK - Toyota Sport Pkge...- $2439
P4 - Vehicle Shield Pkg..- $349
PV - Glass Etch Pckge....- $199
Also the power retractable rear window is standard on the CM's.
So loaded up with Navi and Rear Entertainment should top out at about $48500... unless you want all that other 'stuff'. Do you think a 2007 Denali Crew is going to come in less than that with the same features?
I'm guessing your $7500 audio system is not Bose, because if it is, than you real don't have an appreciation for audio. There are speaker systems for half the price of a Bose system that sound 5 times as good. Pros easily spend $15K just on separates... Bose being terrible isn't some kind of industry secret. It isn't even an issue on audio forums, nobody except complete novices and newbies ever even brings up the question. It would be like asking if a 1992 Ford Escort was a good race car in a forum filled with Corvette, Porsche, and Z drivers. Now, I'm not claiming that JBL is great, but there is no questiong that it is WAY better than Bose. Everybody in the know with audio avoids Bose. They're over-priced under-performing speakers... they weren't even included in a comparison of bookshelf speakers at 1/4 of the cost because the sound quality of their system was awful. Take a gander at www.audioholics.com and check the reviews and forum there; it is overwhelming a known industry fact!
As for pricing out a CrewMax on Toyota's web site, IT ISN'T AVAILABLE yet. That is my point! And including things like every available "accessory" like sound-proof spray and such would give you as much padding to the price as the Silverado, never mind the Denali. Never mind that there is no option for two 7" headrest screens or a separate installation of the Nav system (it only comes in a package that costs $1100 more than the package without it and even that adds the 12-speaker JBL system as well as Bluetooth, steering wheel mounted audio controls, and the preferred accessory package). The highest configuration on the double-cab with everything comes out to $43,259. Please, explain, how the CrewMax adds nearly $10K to this as you claim. I'm using Toyota's site just like you stated. Even without CrewMax pricing available, Edmunds has it prices less than $1K more than the Double Cab.
This vehicle is being directed at 80-90% of volume to the individual worker/owner who will frankly beat the hell out of it and scratch it up with tools, gloves, sand, gravel, concrete, boots and the like. The big thrust is in establishing the bona fides of this truck in the work place. It's only 200K units out of a 2 Million plus market. It will never be all things to all people. Establish a solid foothold in the center of the market and work out from that.
MSRP should be around $44-$45000 so invoice should be about $40000 or just under, which is what I'd pay also.
BUILD YOUR OWN: Summary
Your Vehicle: 2007 Silverado 1500
Selected Style: Crew Cab Short Box
4x4 1LZ
Exterior: Dark Blue Metallic
Interior: Light Cashmere/ Ebony Custom Leather-appointed
Total MSRP: $47,124.00
MSRP:* $38,990.00
Color & Options: $8,134.00
Total MSRP:* $47,124.00
Dealer Installed: $0.00
Accessories: $0.00
*Tax, title, and license extra
Type
• Crew Cab
• Short Box
• 4x4
Style
• Features shown below are in addition to, or in place of, 4x4 Crew Cab 2LT features:
• Air cleaner: high-capacity
• Audio controls, rear: include volume, station selection and media type; dual headphone jacks (headphones not included) and power outlet
• Audio system: AM/FM stereo with in-dash six-disc CD changer/MP3 player, digital clock, seek-scan, auto tone control, automatic volume, TheftLock and auxiliary audio input jack
• Audio system: Bose speaker system, includes subwoofer in center console and eight speakers
• Differential: heavy-duty, automatic, locking rear
• Mirrors, outside: power-adjustable, power-folding, heated, body-color, include integrated turn-signal indicators and driver-side auto-dimming feature
• Remote vehicle starter system, factory-installed; includes Remote Keyless Entry
• Seating: Custom leather-appointed seating surfaces
• Seats: front, bucket; include 12-way power driver and front passenger adjusters; four-way power lumbar control; heated seat cushions and seatbacks; two-position driver memory; and adjustable head restraints
• Trailering equipment: heavy-duty, includes trailering hitch platform, seven-wire harness with seven-way sealed connector, high-capacity air cleaner and external transmission oil cooler
• Universal Home Remote transmitter
• Windshield washer fluid system: heated
• Wipers: Rainsense automatic wiper system
Color
Exterior: Dark Blue Metallic
Interior: Light Cashmere/ Ebony Custom Leather-appointed
Options and Packages
• Air bags, , head curtain side-impact, front and rear outboard seating positions, with rollover sensor $0.0
• Air cleaner, , high-capacity $0.0
• Air conditioning, , dual-zone automatic climate control, with individual climate settings for driver and right-front passenger $0.0
• Audio system feature, , Bose premium speaker system, with sub-woofer in center console $0.0
• Audio system with navigation, , AM/FM stereo with MP3 compatible CD/DVD player and DVD-based navigation, with voice prompts, seek-and-scan, digital clock, auto-tone control, Radio Data System (RDS), speed-compensated volume and TheftLock $2250.0
• Cargo management system, , aluminum front and side C-channel rails, located in the pickup box, includes 4 adjustable tie-down hooks $175.0
• Cooling, , auxiliary external transmission oil cooler, heavy-duty air-to-oil $0.0
• Cruise control, electronic with set and resume speed, located on steering wheel $0.0
• Differential, , heavy-duty automatic locking rear $0.0
• Door locks, , power $0.0
• EZ-Lift Tailgate Package, includes (A60) locking tailgate and (PPA) EZ-Lift tailgate $95.0
• Engine, , Vortec 6.0L V8 SFI, with Active Fuel Management, (367 hp [273.7 kW] @ 5500 rpm, 375 lb-ft of torque [506.3 N-m] @ 4300 rpm), includes (KC4) external engine oil cooler, (KNP) auxiliary external transmission oil cooler, (AXN) heavy-duty 9.5" (24.1 cm) trailering axle and a door badge that reads "Vortec Max" $1000.0
• Entertainment system, , rear seat DVD player, with LCD display and 2 sets of wireless headphones $1295.0
• Floor covering, , color-keyed carpeting, with rubberized vinyl floor mats (Extended and Crew Cab models also include rear floor mats) $0.0
• Fog lamps, , front, halogen $0.0
• GVWR, , 7000 lbs. (3175 kg) $0.0
• Glass, , Solar-Ray deep-tinted, (all windows except light-tinted glass on windshield and driver- and front passenger-side glass) $0.0
• Luggage rack side rails, , roof-mounted, Black, (does not include cross rails) $195.0
• Mirror, , inside rearview auto-dimming, with 8-point compass and outside temperature display $0.0
• Mirrors, , outside heated power-adjustable vertical camper, manual-folding and extension, Black, integrated turn signal indicators, 50 square inch flat mirror surface positioned over a 20 square inch convex mirror surface with a common head and lower convex spotter glass (convex glass is not heated or power adjustable) $55.0
• Moldings, , bodyside, body-colored $0.0
• OnStar, , 1-year of Safe and Sound plan, . Includes Automatic Notification of Air Bag Deployment, Stolen Vehicle Location Assistance, Emergency Services, Roadside Assistance, Remote Door Unlock, OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics, Hands-Free Calling, AccidentAssist and Remote Horn & Lights $0.0
• Pedals, , power-adjustable, for accelerator and brake $0.0
• Rear Parking Assist, Ultrasonic with rearview LED display and audible warning $0.0
• Rear axle, , 3.73 ratio $0.0
• Recovery hooks, , front, frame-mounted $0.0
• Remote vehicle starter system, includes Remote Keyless Entry $0.0
• Safety Package, includes (JF4) Adjustable power pedals, (ASF) Head curtain side-impact air bags and (UD7) Rear Parking Assist $715.0
• Seat adjuster, , driver 6-way power $0.0
• Seat adjuster, , front passenger 6-way power $0.0
• Skid Plate Package, frame-mounted shields, includes front underbody shield starting behind front bumper and running to first cross-member, protecting front underbody, oil pan, differential case and transfer case $0.0
• Spare tire lock, keyed cylinder lock that utilizes same key as ignition and door $0.0
• StabiliTrak, , stability control system, with Proactive Roll Avoidance $0.0
• Steering wheel controls, , mounted audio controls $0.0
• Sunroof, , power, with express-open, Extended Cab retracts above roof, Crew Cab retracts into roof, includes (UG1) Universal Home Remote $685.0
• Suspension Package, , Off-Road, includes 1.81" (46 mm) shocks, off-road jounce bumpers, 34mm front stabilizer bar, (K47) high capacity air cleaner, (G80) heavy-duty automatic locking rear differential, (NZZ) Skid Plate Package and Z71 decals on rear quarters $275.0
• Tailgate lock $0.0
• Trailering equipment, , heavy-duty, includes trailering hitch platform and 2-inch receiver, 7-wire harness (harness includes wires for: park lamps, backup lamps, right turn, left turn, electric brake lead, battery and ground) with independent fused trailering circuits mated to a 7-way sealed connector, wiring harness for after-market trailer brake controller (located in the instrument panel harness), and single wire for center high-mounted stop lamp, (K47) high-cap
The Build/Price functions are controlled regionally after the Base vehicle is chosen.
Note Rockylee's ZIP being 79029.
Not to ignore his concerns, but maybe we should agree on pricing from a particular area that is a good representation of the "norm" in the country, that may help settle some issues...
2007 GMC Sierra SLT/Chevy Silverado LTZ Crew Cab with the 6.0L Fully Loaded
2007 Toyota Tundra Crewmax Ltd, Also fully loaded.
These are equivalent vehicles. I think you will find the GM's are the better value.
Numbers please? (make sure to compare invoice to invoice and MSRP to MSRP). Although I seriously doubt you can order/buy a Tundra at invoice or below plus get at least $1K in cash incentives. And DON'T even think of telling me I can't get a GM truck for invoice, because I did!!! Plus I am getting at least $2K Cash back and maybe more depending on if GM has any more rebates come out before I take delivery in 3-4 weeks.
I paid $38,500 - $1000 cash back (Loyalty rebate) - $1000 cash back (Trade-in Allowance rebate) = $36,500
2007 GMC Sierra SLT Crewcab with 6.0L and 20" wheels. Fully loaded less Nav and Rear DVD.
Including electric sunroof which retracts into roof, not above it.