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When I test drove the 850 non-turbo(w/ headlight wipers) in the early '90's, I was impressed by the car in every way from driving position, steering, handling, braking until the badly oscillating ride on the ripply concrete I-10 fwy by the Covina area in S California.
Early 90s? I don't know the road, I live in the Northeast, but some roads just don't work well with some cars. I've driven soft riding Camrys on concrete roads and their normally supplish ride, with a fair amount of movement, not only turned uncontrolled, but rough as well. I've been in sporty Mercedes that ride coarsely on certain types of roads.
The 95 -97 850 non turbos do an admirable job with handling the nastier roads in New Jersey and New York (even small potholes). I did not notice any osciallation out of the norm from these cars. The 17 inch sport models had a strange sensation of overly damped everything and the s70 seemed underdamped in springs and overdamped in everything else. Great feel until you hit bumps, then abruptness and some harshness.
For the most part I like the 850, but there may be roads that the car doesn't handle as well as it should. The s60 improves ride alot but I wish the s60 had the 850s room and turning circle.
Camry/ES? That's a pathetic car when comes to ride comfort anyway, at least till '01. The 1st FWD Camry in America actually came from my house in Palos Verdes California where Japanese engineers live & test drive prototype up & down the curvy hills. Some of them were trained to drive so fast, even in a minivan, when they discovered a person like me trying to chase it down to take a close look as it happened a few months ago. Some cars I saw never became available in this country. One that did was the '92 Lexus SC.
A Toyota engineer was leasing one of my parents' houses during '82 & told me about this future model -- the Camry -- & its technical highlights, which is "less friction in the suspension to smooth out the expansion joints".
We bought one when the car came out in '83, but the springs were even shorter than the Tercel's! Just imagine that. Even at 48mph on smooth road, passengers don't feel relaxed, let alone the ride over bumps at any speed.
Years later in the late '90's, my relatives' new Camry's still rode pathetically over larger bumps.
Back in '93, when I was comparing the 850 & the Camry SE, my best friend asked me which car rides better. Gosh, they're both bad, but the 850 has longer suspension travel. As I repeatly test drove these cars, including the 850 turbo, the non-turbo 850, despite not abrupt in ride motions, still couldn't impress me due to the fact that the final bounce over each bump is still as high as the bump itself. Maybe the tuning did change a few years later for the non-turbo, but I didn't get to experience those. All I know is that my Indiana relative's S70 AWD rode abruptly w/o the net-depth bump absorption.
Weren't these 850/S70's almost always come in turbos -- low pressure, high pressure & R-spec? As if the non-turbo 5-cyl engine is too slow or droning too loudly even for the little new S40?
Let me tell you about my Tokico experience w/ my '90 Mazda Protege LX. Despite them claiming that they tend to have "more rebound than compression control" than KYB's tuning, I find it otherwise. In addition to the already fairly taut compression, the rebound's (relatively)lack of control made the bounce so abrupt that I had to go complain & got my $ back after I replaced w/ different shocks again. Their demonstration car -- the "Protege twin" Escort GT -- simply rode almost like frozen concrete that couldn't even tell you if there's much of the long-ish 6.7"/8.9" of front/rear suspension travel, possibly due to the even firmer Escort GT's springs. & this is only the less aggressive non-adjustable twin-tube low-pressure gas model.
Bilstein sounds like a good cure for Volvo's. I went nuts solving the problem of my Mazda's too-quick rebound:
creakid1 "Focus Owners: Future Models" May 7, 2003 4:21pm
Understand, we were test driving the car about 3 miles from downtown Denver so if the reception was bad there, imagine how bad it will be when I get into the mountains.
Has anyone come across a nice looking after market option to improve reception?
Seems Volvo made the Euro's v50 too stiff, according to Car. They say stiff doesn't equal sporty. Is U.S. tuning any softer? Why can't Volvo get ride/handling compromise right? They have the platform in the Focus II. They can get handling good, or ride good, but have problems with getting both to standard. They always suffer in comparison tests by never being quite up to standard in handling and when they get it close to standard, the ride quality is unyielding. They need to import some chassis engineers and really burn the midnight oil in that department. R owners complain about the handling/ride compromise on their cars as well, even with the trick suspension and high limits both are not up to standard.
The funny thing is, I think that when Ford builds its new cars on the s60/s80 platform, that they'll have class-leading ride and handling or close to it. Just a few tweaks and the potential of the platform may be realized.
I was very favorably impressed with the handling. About half way to State Highway 35, I pulled in behind a BMW 325i and while I was not pushing the issue, the BMW wanted to run away from me. (It seems the BMW was annoyed that there was this Passion Red Volvo in his rear view mirror - can't imagine why... I wasn't following too close, generally 2 seconds following distance.)
To net out the drive, the BMW had a bad day until we got to State Highway 35 where we parted ways - they could not shake the S40. This particular S40 was the T5 with Geartronic and Sport Package. Guess which car I will be leasing when my S60 AWD lease is up????
Since '99, my test drives made a conclusion -- I'd buy the BMW 323i for its ride comfort alone!
What's worse, many idiots were wondering what's so good about a Beemer if, for the same price, everyone else, such as Nissan, is faster.
Exactly, as the 23 March 2004 AUTOCAR said about the T5 w/ 17"s, "Rapid progress will have poor surfaces thudding through the seat and kicking back through the steering rack; the T5 stampedes down a typical British B-road rather than flowing with poise."
But that's not something to worry about w/ the non-sport suspension, as this is what 24 March 2004 AutoExpress said about the non-sport S40's slow-motion suspension, "Furthermore, the more precise handling has not come at the expense of refinement, as superb damping ensures that the S40 remains very composed on undulating A-roads."
They did point out that the impressive low-speed ride "does become slightly more jittery and uneven" on the motorway.
I happen to find the non-sport T5's handling composed & calm. Only the ride may not be as deeply absorbent as in the league of Mercedes & non-sport BMW. Perhaps when comes to pampering you over tougher surfaces such as tall speed bumps or the British B-roads, the Focus or S40 can never match these 2 top RWD-platform Germans.
We'll see! As one Brit magazine pointed out that Ford will have to be ultra talented in order to achieve that on this Volvo suspension system.
"They did point out that the impressive low-speed ride 'does become slightly more jittery and uneven' on the motorway."
Slightly. I'll take that. Ideally, it seems Volvo needs something in between. I'd like an s80 t6 damping with the s40 t5s handling. It even gives deep absorption on nasty streets, at least at medium speeds. At low speeds its lumpy. But I'll take that over jarring.
Hopefully, Volvo will refine the suspension and maybe they'll be a Phase 2 s40. Upgraded and refined dynamics, upgraded interior. Ford needs to get together with Volvo and maybe lend them some chassis engineers.
The BMW has easy and controlled damping and progressive and planted springs. The geometry is true. The sounds are refined. It is one of the finest cars for the price, and remains the benchmark.
volvomax, how many S40's (the new one) do you have on your lot? are they selling well?
The culprit is the Focus's lack of very long suspension travel. The non-sport T-5 already has the ideal tuning for ride comfort. It's like no matter how you tune the Carisma's Japanese suspension on the old S40, there's no way it can ride better than mediocre.
If you're after the type of car like the G35 & 330i, which has the lowered sport suspension std since '01.5(CR tested the '01 w/o the sport suspension), they are not in the same "pampering-ride league" as the std 325i.
"I will probably get an S40 T5 AWD manual or a Subaru Legacy GT manual (after a thorough back to back test drive of both)."
The Subaru Legacy still lacks steering feel according to June '04 CAR's wagon comparison of V50/X-Type/Freelander/Legacy, which I just read at the news stand. Ride comfort's good, at least at higher speeds.
As benjamins mentioned, they found the V50's ride(w/ sport suspension & 17"s) too stiff.
They preferred the Jag X-type, which does well in both ride & handling. I believe it has the sport suspension.
Otherwise, the June '04 TopGear's diesel-sedan comparison had to rank the softest-&-quietest 16" non-sport X-type, which has the most cramped back seat & lowest quality interior plastic, behind the 2nd-place 17" S40 sport, which trails behind the 1st-place 17" A4 sport. Again, the S40 sport is badly criticized for it's ride.
Audi has the most steady steering. While the Jag needs "some extra concentration and a tight grip of the wheel" during cross winds, plus the most body lean & least predicable handling. The Volvo "feels the most compact car of these three on the road" & the most nimble/agile w/ "the liveliest and the most communicative" steering.
The comparison candidates chosen in these Brit car magazines are pretty much pointless. So the S40 sport has least comfortable ride & the best handling & steering ahead of both Jag & Audi sport. Big deal, we know the VW/Audi group no longer got much steering feel these days even w/ sport package.
Just like after the 3-series sedan became std w/ sport suspension since '02 in Europe, all the comparisons kept saying the Beemer got the best steering & handling, but the Mercedes & Jaguar got better ride comfort. The Brits can opt for the regular suspension as part of the special comfort package, but these Magazines didn't bothered to.
We all know that the S40's sport suspension is too uncomfortably busy, even more so than the BMW/Mercedes/Jaguar's sport suspension.
A truely comparable comparison is to pit the relax-riding S40 w/ non-sport suspension against these rivals, even the Jaguar w/ the non-lowered sport suspension & Mercedes w/ sport suspension, which has been lowered lately but the C-class got so many inches of travel to begin with, so it's still comparable.
I guess only CR will pick the S40 w/o sport suspension in the comparison test. Just like they're the only one did the G35/3-series w/o sport suspension, while C&D always picked the G35/325i w/ sport suspension.
We'll see! As one Brit magazine pointed out that Ford will have to be ultra talented in order to achieve that on this Volvo suspension system.”
There was a false rumor that the '08 Mondeo III will be based on the S60/80 due to its platform strength. Well, AUTOCAR just revealed that it's the Scorpio-size version that'll do that, just like the American Ford Five Hundred. So it's not too hard to beat the dynamics of the Scorpio as oppose to the superb Mondeo II.
The next Mondeo & Galaxy minivan will be have nothing to do w/ the Mazda6, which the American Futura, etc. will be based on, & will be based on a stretched Focus II. & the sketch looks very much like an enlarged new S40, although the final styling hasn't been finalized yet. Make sense, strength wise, the new S40 w/ the "Focus II platform" crashes as well as the S80! The Mondeo III's ride comfort is suppose to be a priority w/ the Toyota Avensis as benchmark. Sounds like it'll ride at least as good as the recent Camry(SE?) while providing better handling & steering.
The only thing Volvo-ish about the next Mondeo is that it will use the turbo 5-cyl's from Volvo instead of 6-cyl's, which will be reserved for the Scorpio-size Ford "S80".
http://autonet.ca/AutonetStories/Spotlight/Stories.cfm?StoryID=11- 763
Thanks.
Sales have begun to climb, the public is becoming more aware and Volvo is getting more aggressive w/ programs for the car.
The bodykit is available as a dealer installed option on the 2004.5's.
Factory option(part of the dynamic package) for the T5's.
While BMW is in the process of putting the finishing touches on the successor to the E46 (hopefully they don't bungle the styling like they did on the 5 and 7 series - you either like it or hate it, I am one of the haters), they presently have a product that is getting passed by new products from the competition. The second generation S40 is a credible competitor to the E46. In addition, BMW seems to have a continuing problem with the automatic transmission in the E46.
In my particular situation, the closest BMW dealer has a rather bad reputation for being able to fix mechanical problems. With the prospect of having to put the car on a flat bed truck and transport it to a dealer that is more qualified, I basically decided to pass on the brand.
Fortunately, the Volvo dealer that I have done business with is much more capable at repairing any problems that have occurred. (Although, in retrospect, I haven't really experienced any major problems with the Volvos that I have owned - the worst was a leak in the a/c evaporator unit that required removal of the dash to replace.)
And also why it is assumed that there are only aggressive and ambitious drivers on the road.
I have found BMW in general very potent and , admittedly, having very classy exterior, but overpriced, cramped inside, with the simplistic and not comfortable interior, and rather harsh ride, with the exception of the 745.
So, I will trade the BMW for the Volvo in any category, but 7 (where Volvo just does not have any representation, yet).
Since '01.5, the only 3-series tuned for supreme ride comfort is the 325i sedan w/o sport package. Since '04.5, the comfy std 325i can be special ordered w/ 1st class seating -- sport seats($550) & 4-way lumbar($450).
A couple years ago, CR compared the 5-series & E-class. Guess what? The 5-series w/o sport suspension outperforms the E-class in handling & steering, plus better ride comfort & quietness!
You have to know which Beemer to pick. Many people tried to look macho by getting the lowered sport suspension. That's why they're all over the dealer lot. They don't even mind the X3/X5 SUV's terrible ride comfort, which is inevitable w/ or w/o the sport suspension.
While BMW is in the process of putting the finishing touches on the successor to the E46 (hopefully they don't bungle the styling like they did on the 5 and 7 series - you either like it or hate it, I am one of the haters), they presently have a product that is getting passed by new products from the competition. The second generation S40 is a credible competitor to the E46."
I'm afraid not, except E46's loud ventilation fan. The steering feel, handling & ride are not being matched by the new S40, let alone beaten. Even the new FWD S40 is just as cramped inside as the old RWD 3-series sedan.
I mean, FWD cars w/ front-overhang weight becomes clumsier in handling, & hence needs a firmer less-comfy suspension to compensate. Even taller vehicles like the BMW SUVs can't get away w/ uncomfortably firm suspension for decent cornering performance.
The long-heavy-nose Audi A4 finally gave up & is switching to RWD next.
& stability control system is keeping RWD cars these days from spinning.
"In addition, BMW seems to have a continuing problem with the automatic transmission in the E46."
CR gave the E46 solid red(highest rating) in transmission reliability every year. No Volvo can do that!
Maybe it's really the exceptions from the S African-built 325i sedans w/ French-made transmission?
Don't know about CR's ratings of the A/T in the E46, but ironically, this past December, when I was curious about the E46, I visited the local BMW dealer and at the start of the test drive, I was able to re-create the condition that is causing the most controversy with the A/T in the E46. Specifically, in a cold start condition (in my experience, the outside temperature was approximately 50 degrees F and the car had not been operated at least overnight), putting the transmission in reverse and then immediately shifting into drive right after starting the engine resulted in a period of slippage of the transmission clutch pack(s) such that for about 15 to 20 seconds, the transmission did not appear to be engaged. It was as if the transmission was in neutral instead of drive....
The salesman's response was that the service manager would check into the condition that I had been able to replicate and that BMW cars came with a 4 year/50,000 mile warranty and that any problems would be fixed under warranty. (Not much that you can do in such a circumstance, when the customer has found a piece of dirty laundry, so to speak....) I replied that I would rather have a problem-free car at delivery and that perhaps I would check back in a couple of months. I then checked with some BMW owners that I know about the dealership's service department, and things went from bad to worse.
I rather doubt that a stability control system on a rear wheel drive car can do a better job of fighting a spin than a similar system (such as DSTC on the Volvo) in conjunction with the Haldex AWD system that will be available around the end of 2004 for the S40.
I would even favorably compare the Haldex AWD in the S40 with the AWD in the BMW xi models - the Haldex AWD is integrated with the DSTC computer, such a circumstance is not present in the E46.
I had been seriously checking out another BMW, this time an '04 325i. But for me, cost played a significant role in my decision. This time, I wasn't willing to pay a few thousand extra for a small improvement in steering feel and ride comfort. I also wasn't willing to buy a "stripped" BMW to try to get its cost down. (Leatherette in this Arizona heat?!!) Don't forget the little things, such as insurance costs, and the short BMW performance tire life when equipped with the sport package. ($600+ for tires every 17K-20K miles.) There is also the BMW "image" factor, as some people out here seem to truly detest BMW drivers!
No doubt, the S40 grew on me. I liked its steering, ride, and handling characteristics more than the TSX, A4 1.8T FWD, or any other FWD car I have driven. And this was without the sports suspension, as I wanted a strong balance of overall ride quality. I also truly appreciate the S40's exterior lines, especially in the black or dark gray colors.
I believe Volvo is offering some lease incentives. Thanks to some excellent number crunching by my salesman at Powell Volvo, I am looking at a total monthly payment well below $300. No, it's not a 2.5T, but the 2.4i with the leather, moonroof, power seat, and the other Premium Package extras. As fast as the 2.5T can scoot, I wanted to avoid even the slightest hint of turbo lag, after having grown disappointed with the non-linear acceleration of our former A4 1.8T. And, more importantly, I was attempting to keep my costs low. For my commute, the 2.4i is just fine. Engine noise is a bit loud during quick accelerations, but it seems relatively quiet enough at highway speeds.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The S40's residual value seems worse than the 325i, though. So last month, a 6-cyl $30k 325i auto was advertised at $2528 drive off @ $299/mo for 36 mo @ 10k/yr.
"As fast as the 2.5T can scoot, I wanted to avoid even the slightest hint of turbo lag, after having grown disappointed with the non-linear acceleration of our former A4 1.8T.'
We leased a Passat 1.8 turbo auto since Feb. Oh boy, forget this engine! Std lumbar for both front seats are highly praised, though.
Have you driven the T5's 2.5 turbo? It's whole lot more pleasant than that!
As always, people should drive anything they are interested in, and decide what they like (or more accurately, which compromises they are willing to make, since there is no "perfect" car).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
This month Volvo is advertising a base 2.4i lease with $2495 cap reduction, $595 acquisition fee @ $229/mo for 36 mo @ 10K/yr. Since I wanted the Premium Package, we went with a different lease deal through a local bank. But thanks to a Volvo cap reduction incentive as well as my salesman at Powell Volvo, my own lease is in the same "ballpark", or possibly even better, when considering the added ammenities. I totally suspect the S40 residual to be a little weaker than the 325i, but the Volvo lease incentive seems to definitely improve the lease pricing of the S40 versus this month's lease numbers on the 325i.
No, the Passat is really an Audi -- no VW engines.
This 2.8 is an Audi V6, not the VW 15-degree VR6 also labeled as V6 these days used in Jetta/Golf.
Even the 1.8 turbo is really an Audi engine w/ 5-valve per cylinder.
Since Audi now uses 3.0 instead of 2.8, CR pointed out that the Passat's 2.8 is the only engine w/o the coil recall that plagues everywhere in the VW/Audi family, & hence the car pretty much got the highest reliability rating of all European cars.
The FWD Passat is the only "Audi" left w/ the old rear suspension. Rest of the FWD Audi's are now adopting the multi-link suspension from the AWD models.
& of course, the upcoming new FWD Passat/Jetta/Golf/A3 got the Focus-type 4-link Control-blade rear suspension, just like the new S40.
The S60 rode better than the 3-series sedan in that Brit's CAR comparison because the lowered sport suspension has just become std equipment on all European 3-series sedans.
CR bashed Volvo's ride again in the June '04 issue. First, it was the S60 not being able to match the C-class & non-sport 3-series. Ride wise, this time even the new 5-series &, more so, the S-Type are being ranked 2nd-best behind the E-class. While the S80 is way behind, especially at lower speeds.
Sounds like the new 5-series only excels in quietness this time. They said the old 5-series scored better than the new one despite more cramped interior. & the E-class is the only one in the group that got rated high in routine handling!
It's no big deal if you're only trying to find a better ride comfort than the 3-series coupe or sedan w/ sport suspension, 'cause the S40 T-5 w/o sport suspension can do it. The question is will Volvo's have hard time just to beat the much-lower-price Honda Accord's ride/handling/steering compromise? I suspect that Accord's somewhat firm ride has got deeper absorption, as C&D pointed out that even the firmer Mazda6 uses up the spring travel sooner than the Accord!
The only thing that feels good about the non-sport S40's ride/handling is the slow-motion calm movement that's fun to play around as long as you're not facing the really big ones only the Mercedes/BMW/Peugeot can swallow.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm not the type of guy trying to impress my future mother in-law by being a boring dork -- "Gee, I may not be a skillful driver, but I have the Volvo as an guardian angel whenever I crash."
If I'm proud of the new S40, it's due to the car's bona fide inner strength. Perhaps this is gonna be the 1st Volvo that'll top CR's safety rating by outperforming other Volvo's in accidence avoidance maneuver. Most accidents can be attributed by the clumsiness of your car & driving skill.
How many times do I have to tell a student driver to "At least let go the gas AS SOON AS you see red traffic light or brake lights in front of you!" Nobody had to teach me this. Talk about fundamental mental instinct.
Thanks.
T5 manuals will be available fwd.
Do you know when the 2004.5 S40/V50 will be available for the OSD, and will it get the same kind of discount as the rest of the cars?
2005's can be ordered now, although we have no prices yet.
Delivery in Europe starting in July.
It seems they were even. European Automobile magazine had a different take. They thought the s60 had too little compression damping and that the damping relied on too much secondary damping resulting in "abruptness". They thought the sports suspension had the ideal damping. The writer stated his bias of not minding impact harshness and thought the s60 with sports suspension, although having impact harshness from tires, was the more fluid car in both ride and handling. It's interesting the differences that the professional reviewers have about cars.
"CR bashed Volvo's ride again in the June '04 issue. First, it was the S60 not being able to match the C-class & non-sport 3-series. Ride wise, this time even the new 5-series &, more so, the S-Type are being ranked 2nd-best behind the E-class. While the S80 is way behind, especially at lower speeds."
I expect CR to bash Volvos (and Saabs for that matter). They even bashed the xc90, a vehicle that receives a lot of praise from many publications. I take what they say with a grain of salt. Perhaps the s80's tires were overinflated, that's the only thing that can explain their coming to this conclusion. The s80 is definitely softer sprung and damped than the German cars, unless the new E is softer than the old (did they test the one with air suspension?). The s80's low speed ride suffers from some lumpiness but that's erased at moderate speeds. The s80 has very slow rebound and close to seemlessly checked motions, it doesn't handle great, handles OK, but it is a car that should not be criticized for ride comfort, IMO. Even Edmunds praises the ride comfort of the latest s80s. I also wonder why CR didn't test an s80 with 4C. Comfort mode is espressly for low speed driving. Sports for everything else. My compaints about the s80 is some more road noise on some roads than should be, sometimes flakiness in the cabins and electrics, terrible turning circle, steering feedback.
"It's no big deal if you're only trying to find a better ride comfort than the 3-series coupe or sedan w/ sport suspension, 'cause the S40 T-5 w/o sport suspension can do it. The question is will Volvo's have hard time just to beat the much-lower-price Honda Accord's ride/handling/steering compromise? I suspect that Accord's somewhat firm ride has got deeper absorption, as C&D pointed out that even the firmer Mazda6 uses up the spring travel sooner than the Accord!"
Hmmm. I think we should match sports suspension with sports suspension as the 3 series w/o sports suspension is mighty comfortable and calm, with a trace of a firm edge. It uses nicer materials inside than the Volvo, although the Volvo is certainly the most contemporary and bold of the two designs. If Volvo is in the same park as BMW, that's fine, but if it lacks suspension travel as you state, then certain roads will reveal this.
The Accord is a different beast. It's a poor man's Acura RL. It isn't as sporty as the Volvo even with the firmish ride it has. It is bigger. It may be quieter, especially the 6. If someone is looking for a family car then the Accord makes more sense than the Volvo but the Volvo is perceived as much safer. The Volvo's usual seat advantage doesn't come into play as much in the two cars. Maybe Volvo is more stylish, the 4 door Accord looks strange from the back and front, and OK from the side. The last generation Accord certainly didn't have a deep ride, for me it didn't ride as well as the Passat, big bumps and deep ruts upset it more than they did the Passat (which is also upset by these types of roads). Interestingly, the old s40 did OK, but sudden humps and potholes and deep manhole covers were met with pretty juddery reactions, much moreso than Accord or Passat. I think the Volvo is in a somewhat different category than Accord, the Volvo is with Jetta and TSX and other cars that sacrifice some practicality for style and performance.
Secondary damping -- that's what I've been suspecting all along about my aunt's AWD S70's uncomfortable abrupt ride.
So I wonder if the S60 w/ relatively highly-rated ride comfort compare to the 3-series sport in CAR was w/ the consistently fluid sport suspension?
I also suspect progressive-rate spring doesn't ride as well as linear-rate spring. The idea of progressive-rate is when a flat-riding sport spring is too firm for comfort, they change the first-inch(or so) compression to soft just to keep the superficial harshness away. But a bad result is when more people/cargo are loaded, the ride height drops immediately compare to a linear-rate spring w/ the same average firmness. That ruins the ride comfort 'cause the remaining spring travel is lessened.