Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Numbers don't lie. According to my math, initial quality IS pretty much the same among manufactures. But long term reliability might be an entirely different issue.
And again, minor difference might have a big impact on consumer perception as you said, which is why I said CR's remarks might do a disservice to the public.
Read more here:
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/consume9_20040309.htm
Or here:
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0403/10/a01-86172.htm
And just for fun, see that Toyota also make sometimes mistakes:
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/toyot9_20040309.htm
I got the point when I tried to trade my 1995 Ford Windstar GL. No takers. Smart men - read the Consumers Reports which listed this as "one to avoid". On the flip side, I saw a post where 2001 Honda Odyssey sold via internet auction for just $7800 under its initial value in 3 years(I assume MSRP - Steve the Host posted it). This is listed as a "good choice". Thus, yes - you pay more up front for those foreign brands, but in the end you recover and do better on the resale - sometimes vastly better - more than recovering that purchase price adder.
"One has an 18% chance of getting a domestic new car with ONE problem, and 12% chance if he buys an asian brand. The difference is 6%, and we're only talking about your chance of having ONE problem here"
Yep - not much difference - but it really depends what that one problem is. I had a problem on my 1997 Nissan Pathfinder and replaced a $25 cruise control switch. I had a problem on my 1995 Ford Windstar at about the same mileage just out of warranty and it cost me $940 (at 34,500 miles and 39 months out). I could have lots of "problems" with my Nissan before it could equate to one Windstar problem.
Initial quality as an indicator of what to expect....
Most vehicles deliver a pretty flawless first 3 years. It's after that when the real costs of ownership show up, and these are the ones you need to focus on which is where I believe the brands really differentiate. My Windstar was pretty darn good until that head gasket failed. Then it was the transmission piston ($1200), tie rods, water pump, ball joint, fuel injection module, thermostat and so on. In the end it added up to $5000 in repairs (this isn't maintenance - this is stuff breaking)to make it to 125,000 miles. My 1988 Toyota Corolla FX cost me nothing more than basic fluids and filters, tires, a belts, and a battery over this same ownership life. Besides the monetary cost, the hassle of arranging rides, etc adds only to the aggravation.
In the end, I like Consumer's Reports method of indicating a long term reliability guess based more on the brand than a specific model by itself. Improvements and disimprovements just seem to be decade or half-decade trends. Hondas were rust buckets in the late 70's and early 80's but 10 years later became the brand to buy. Overnight domestics are not going to be better car companies. It will take them years to achieve this. Meanwhile, the "Asian" competition keeps raising the bar on quality.
Sorry to hear about your windstar problem laundryguy. It stinks when that happens.
ps:I don't know why my posts are often posted twice. Wierd.
The fix is to click on Recent Messages or go elsewhere in Town Hall and come back to the discussion after posting.
You can always delete your posts at anytime with the delete button next to the post title. And you have 30 minutes to edit your message after posting.
Steve, Host
Test drove a Sport model today with the odom. showing only 290km. The ride was quite good but I'm terribly disappointed when the Message Centre readout showed fuel consumption at about 18 liters/100 km or approx. 16 mpg (imperial gal.)
This is far below the 20 city/ 29 hwy rating for each imperial gallon. the 16mpg was also obtained
with mostly highway driving. Is this normal for the 4.2L engine when new ??
If you have to increase the rebates that much just to get your own employees to buy one, it makes you wonder. I would assume the next round of incentives for the general public will be equal or greater.
Read it here:
http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0404/02/b01-110657.htm
Last year's Windstar's March sales were 10,372.
Freestar's March sales totaled 9,111 this year.
Monterey sales were 1,508.
Not that I'm saying that together they are ahead 300 units, compare to last years (LAST model years numbers which are usually very low).
But what I'm trying to demonstrate are the number's, and how some people might have flocked to Mercury, yet number's are almost the same.
We can contradict this by saying that these models should be selling much better since they are newly revamped vehicles.
But showing an example...
It is a much improved vehicle over the previous Windstar, however it still lags behind the competition as sales figures and ever increasing rebates will attest. Any chance you can get the recently increased $4000 rebate from Ford?
The Freestar has preformed great. The engine cradle bushings are getting a little loose and cranky on the right front corner, making a pop occasionally when I put it in gear. No biggie, a common Ford problem. I am getting around 18-19mph, BUT I HAVE A REAL LEAD FOOT. I have a radar detector and scanner; I tend to drive fast (80+) on open roads. I live in central Calif and my job puts me on a lot of very desolate back roads. I can't believe how much quieter the Freestar is over my '02 Windstar. Great radio as well.
My wife now has a Merc Monterey after we got rid of the Freestar with the bogus paint. What a nice van. I drove it today and the seats that warm up my tail was nice. The only problem we have had on the Monterey was a radio that got amnesia once in a while when you started the car. Ford replaced it, done deal.
Remember, we drove the new Sienna and passed on it because of the weak finishes and what seemed to be an engine that liked to be reved up to do anything. We didn't drive the Honda because our 6 foot torsos did not when the seats were pushed back. The rest of the stuff didn't hold 3 carseats and all of the associated stuff.
After 18k miles, we are happy and would not have a problem recommending these units if the buyer was happy with the price. Remember, my Freestar is company furnished and our personal unit was purchased on x-plan so the price was good when we bought it. I realize that Ford/Mercury suffers on resale unless you keep them for a while.
Look at it this way, what looks better a '96 Windstar or a '96 Toyota van?
Good luck and drive safe,
Randy the Trainboy
come with both the 16" and 17" wheels for the 2004
Freestar. Not sure if you get a better quality tire if ordered with the 17" option.
"We didn't drive the Honda because our 6 foot torsos did not when the seats were pushed back. The rest of the stuff didn't hold 3 carseats and all of the associated stuff."
Was surprised by this as I found the Freestar much smaller than the Odyssey, particularly in the back seat where there is 6 inches less leg room and about an inch less in head room.
Since you got three tykes the rear leg room should not be an issue before you run the van into the ground.
I too - have liked Ford interiors. Just had issues with the reliability to the tune of $4500 to $5000 on my 1995 Windstar to get it to 125,000 miles. Freestar is probably much improved. New, stronger, better engine, tranny fixed in 2001 (so I have seen posted), and more space behind the 3rd row than the old Windstar.
Hope it treats you well. Hope you got the extended warranty unless this is a different Ford company from the one I knew only too well.
I also have a '02 Windstar which I like very much, but when I sit in the Freestar, I can't think how I will like this one. Most controls are very small. Starting by the very little numbers on the gauges (Windstar's is very large and clear), and tiny controls for the power windows and for the message center, tiny controls for AM/FM/Tape/CD, plus the new ugly steering wheel I can't look at it, and the rear seats so low, these things make me think twice before making a deal on a Freestar, and a little analog clock will not change my mind.
Steve, Host
I'm not that big lover of the Freestar, but I can't think that everybody is wrong and Edmunds is the only one right.
Anyway, I'm glad I bought my Freestar (SE). It's two months old now, and we love it. We bought it for several reasons.
Ford brand loyalty. The ONLY car I or my family has ever owned that gave us trouble was a GM piece of junk.
Safety. We're talking family taxi here, not a sports car. We're on the highway a lot in the summer, and safety was very high on our list of required features.
Price. Yes, price. At the time we bought it, only the Dodge Grand Caravan was cheaper, and not by much. This was because of dealer/Ford incentives, and the fact that my family has used the same dealer for over 30 years now. Given the other two criteria, saving an extra $500 for a Dodge wasn't worth it. Other minivans, especially the imports, were WAY out of our price range (which maxed out around $23,000). Some people have realistic incomes, although by reading comments on this and other car forums, you wouldn't think so! :-)
On the road: nice and quiet, smooth ride, although I agree at high RPM the engine sounds like a truck's. It also handles nice, for a van. I think some people's standars are unfair (we're talking grocery-getters here). Fold-flat rear seat is very nice, and all the other features make it a very comfortable van (we got the power driver's seat, the CD and Cassette "dual media" sound system, center-row storage console, and the captain's chairs for the middle seats).
Just one happy Freestar owner's opinions, of course!
Mike
The rear row set folding flat is nothing new, Honda had it first. What Honda can't do is fold flat with the head rest still attached. With Freestar, just pinch the little latch on the headrest support shaft and then push the headrest down against the seat top. Pull latch strap 1 and then the seat collapses. Pull strap 2 and the whole thing folds over into the hole. Done deal. What Honda can't do is fold over for tailgate mode. My kids love that when we are working in the yard. They sit it the reversed seat and read. By the way, what do you do with the disconnected headrests?
As far as the middle row captain's seats collapsing and folding over, who did the test, the Three Blind Mice? I can flip both of mine in less than a minute. They pull out easy as well.
With the trim, I agree it lacks a bit with the psuedoleather trim plastic dash. We have a Freestar SE company sled and a Monterey Lux mid class personal van. Same plastic, interesting though, the texture of the leather wheel in the Merc very closely matches the fake vinyl dash texture and color. What I do like is the Ford and Merc dashes don't have the glossy black stuff like the Toy Sienna. We drove one of those and that glossy black stuff was screaming, "Sticky fingerprints go here!" The Ford textured stuff hides fingerprints well, just like the textured skin on your refrigerator door.
As far as engine power, the Fords lack a bit, but who is doing the 1/4 mile stuff in the family sled? Only a teenager should complain here ONCE, before losing their driving privileges. I don't get to drive the Merc much, but the company Freestar with the 3.9 is fun without the kids in the back. It has a bunch of torque in the 2500-4500 rpm range; nice on country roads. I don't have any problems holding 75-80mph with the 3.9 L. Remember it is my company unit and I pay a flat rate for personal use; they buy the gas. If you want to pay more to have the Toy and then feed it premium petro, that is your privilege!
We didn't drive the Ody, because we are too tall for the seat pitch. The unit we tried, the seats wouldn't go back enough for us.
So what these rocket scientists can't figure out, is which van is the best one to lock your key into? When you have a litter of screaming kids pulling on your arms and you lock you keys in the car, you will be happy that you have a Ford product with a driver's door key pad. Since you locked you keys in, you probably locked you cell phone in as well. That doesn't do much for the free roadside assistance. To top things off, on the Merc, the driver's door key pad codes can be personalized, adjusting the interior amenities to match the driver. My personal door code sets the seats and mirrors the way I like them. Honda, Toy, Kia...???
Enterprise Rent-a-car has these for rent now. They are the SE, so everything gets better from there. If you are going for a test ride, drive a Merc as well. I think their package pricing is better if you are going upper mid line.
Good luck,
Randy
The trans shifts real nice, albeit ONLY four speeds. Who remembers "PowerGlide" and "Ford-a-Matic" two speed systems? I used to drive trucks with 13 speed manual, non-synchronized transmissions; 4-speed auto is just fine for the family sled.
We did not choose the extended warranty. My company drives Windstar/Freestar vans to 80k-90k miles. My last 4 Windstars made it to that mark without any major repairs. Personally, my choice it to trade at 60k, we kept our '96 Windstar to 80k, waiting for the new product. Unfortunately the '95's with the bad engine scared everybody. Ford has been good to us..
Drive Safe,
Randy
Sam, I do agree with you about the seats. They are low, especially in row 3. I have bench seats in the Freestar and buckets in the Merc. Go with buckets if you can, it make access to the 3rd row easier. On the previous Freestars, the 2nd row bench seat was offset towards the driver's side, leaving a tiny aisle on the passenger' side. On the new stuff, they centered the 2nd row bench seat or made it a bit wider, tough on the third row folks, unless they are under 5 yrs. old.
As far as the steering wheel, if you are looking at that, you are not looking at where you are going. Not much you can do here.
Wind noise is lower in both the Monterey and the Freestar, which is real nice if you drive a lot of freeway/highway.
I now have 12K on my Freestar company unit after 3 1/2 months. I am very happy. My company unit is an SE model. If you want to try one, look at Enterprise. You can rent one for a weekend. Ford also offered to let us take one for overnite. See what you can do.
As I have said again and again, try the Merc Monterey. I think that is a better value if you are buying high mid range.
Good luck,
Randy
So the power adjustable pedals is now standard on many models, but the dual sun visors - which was available on the Windstar Limited only - is not available in any minivan. Even Ford dropped this feature on 2003.
ANT, any idea why?
Another thing I like in my Windstar, is the design of the sun visor, so you don't need an extender (it's extended already), it covers the most important spots on the windshield and on the side window when turned sideways.
But now in the Freestar they stopped this, too, and offers a plain visor, and they try to make some black dots on the upper part of the windshield which won't do the trick. I could not figure why Ford should drop the few good points they still have.
I once rented a Grand Marquis, and I was impressed with what dual sun visors can do for you. I'm doing a lot of local driving, and on a sunny day you can't stop pulling and turning the single sun visors. Like Edmunds points out, the dual sun visors should be standard on every vehicle!
Can anybody explain why most minivans don't have neither visor extender and secondary visor? Chrysler/Dodge minivans always had an extender, but dropped'em for 2005. And both, the Ford Freestar and Toyota Sienna offer simple outdated sun visors. And so is GM. Honda is the only one still offering visor extenders, and who knows if they, too, will drop it for the new 2005 model??
And one more question: In the good old days, the mirror on the visor was big enough to look in. nowadays, most mirrors, especially the illuminated ones, are so small you barely can see your 2 eyes in it! Why do they make it so small? Was something wrong with the old big design???
Popping those features into Edmund's pricing system, it comes out at 23,104 after incentives/rebates. We got better incentives from our dealership (helped that we were purchasing off the lot).
I can't imagine why anyone would be surprised at the low price. Plus, I'm puzzeled why anyone would pay MORE for a minivan. Call me a cheapskate if you want, but the day I spend more than 30K for a car, it's going to be something sweet.
Mike
Although I have been known to replace sun visors before, with better one's. Specially waayyyyy back when, in a Mustang GT. Those things were a joke!
Mike
Steve, Host
I currently have a 2002 Windstar lease, which ends in 8 months. I was still undecided which minivan to buy next (I'll stay with minivans - I just love them - don't care about that image thing ;-)
But this week I got an offer from Ford that I can return my Windstar TODAY in order to get another Ford car. They call it "early bird" special, which let you terminate your lease, and the rest of the payments will be waived.
Now I've got a big decision to make. Should I keep my Windstar another 8 months, and then return it (and pay for everything not covered under warranty) and then decide what to take next (Toyota, Honda, Chrysler or... Ford), or should I take the offer and drive a new vehicle right now, which means stick with Ford for another 3 years (by that time I hope the new minivan from Ford will already be out - which should be much better than the Freestar).
I don't care about the engine stuff. The only thing I don't like in my Windstar is the noise levels and the 3rd row seat doesn't flush into the floor. Now the Freestar has both, a quiet interior and a fold-into-floor rear seat - although I want the split one (like Toyota or Chrysler), and the rear seat is very low.
Freestar has better steering and braking than Windstar, NVH is also much improved over the Windstar, controls are better looking (although I prefer the Windstars over the Freestars), and much more improvements.
Even though I think the Freestar's design is dated, I still like it more than the UGLY Sienna.
Anyway, I can't decide. I need help deciding!
Besides. I would like to know if my early lease termination will effect my credit. (Usually if you terminate a lease, besides the $1000's in fines, it will have a negative reaction on your credit score).
Thanks for any inputs!
Sam
Remember - the Freestar was also "All-New" according to Ford and its sales are lower than the Windstar's despite heavy incentives.
The Freestar will seem like a big improvement over the Windstar to you. If you are going to get one, just don't test drive anything else. And be prepared for the same resale and reliability history of the Windstar.
The new minivan will be brand new, and not just a carry over. It will have the new Duratec 30 engine as well.
You have to understand that Ford wasn't able to build a brand new van in a short period of time. The Windstar just got in trouble after the new Sienna and Quest came out, so they took the Windstar, updated the interior, made it quiet, and added a small 3rd row seat which folds into the floor, and gave it a new name (the name is all-new - err... actually just the first half of the name).
I couldn't care less about resale value since it's a lease. And about reliability, I haven't had any major problems the last 2 and a half years with my Windstar. It was almost trouble free.
Of course, the only way I would accept Ford's offer will be if I'll get an excellent deal. If not, I would rather take the (ugly) Sienna, since it serves better my purposes with the seats and smoothness.
It's too expensive of a platform for them to turn a decent profit. And the Mazda6 platform is much more flexible to increase it's width, as well as length, while being lightweight in comparison to the P2 platform which is heavier.
So based upon the exsisting platforms, and drivetrains, there was really no choice other than what you currently see.
They can't develop a totally new platform JUST for minivan use, it simply wouldn't be financially feasable. The only real engine they could have used would have been the 4.0L SOHC V6 "Cologne" engine found in the Explorer... And that itself isn't configured for FWD application.
Yes they could have used the P2 platform (as the Freestyle/500) but it's an expensive starting base to begin with. And because of how sophisticated it is, it would have to be reinforced structurally a bit more, for minivan duty, hence, weight. WEIGHT which needs to be propelled by an engine, that has not yet come to light, the Duratec35.
So the end result is the Freestar, which improves on the Windstar, but doesn't really set it apart from the rest of the pack.
Ford are now discussing names, like Freestar and Freestyle, so ford brand cars should have names that start with "F". Names don't sell cars you pencil pushing posers. Cut your overhead and put more content into your cars than the competition.
I've got a good name for most of your managment Ford, its two words and hey; it starts with an "F".
On another note, does anybody know how hard it is to pull the door panels and rear panels off to upgrade the Freestar's speakers?