Has Honda's run - run out?

gee35coupe · June 2004

I've been in love with that car since the day I laid eyes on it. So is the TSX. I'm actually scared to test the TL 6 speed cause it may put my Lexus in jeopardy.

ateixeira · June 2004

Hyundai did a pretty good job mimicking that Ferrari with the Tibby. ;-)

Among sedans I like the Alfa 156. Don't know how they do it, but they combine sexy and practical in the same design.

-juice

nippononly · June 2004

bring a 220 hp CTR to the States! Please!

c1rybick · June 2004

Short rear decks aren't necessarily a bad thing, though. I think that the Nissan Altima and the B5 and B5.5 Passats are beautifully shaped cars (ignoring the cheap interior in the Altima and the ugly taillights/headlights of the B5.5).

Now, short deck plus ugly taillights, aka the current Accord--yuck.

scape2 · June 2004

It was only a matter of time that reliability became a past issue. I feel Honda/Toyota made Ford/GM/Dodge improve because if they didn't they would have lost even more market share. My feelings are the consumer is starting to find out that Toyota/Honda no longer have the reliability/quality thing in the bag. I am living proof of this theory. I have jumped from the "imports" back into the "domestics" and have been quite happy with my last few purchases.. I believe Honda is going to have even a harder time now with the Koreans entering the picture. Hyundia is a huge corporation WITH backing from GM at that..

gee35coupe · June 2004

Honda built it's stellar reputation more from used cars than new ones. The only way Honda or Toyota will lose thier edge is when thier cars start looking and lasting as poorly as GM's cars after 10 years.

I have seen countless 90-93 Accords with 200,000 miles that look like they are still new. Look at the values of these cars vs. domestics of that era. It's like night and day. As long as Honda's have that kind of longevity they'll be okay. I know they won me over when my first few $1500 Civics amd Accords that were great refined cars that never felt like the penalty boxes that the domestics were putting out.

I mean honestly, there is no way anyone will look at the blandly styled Malibu or Taurus ten years from now and look forward to owning it.

Now Hyundai is a different story. If they ever finish trying to copy Jaguar and Benz and find thier own identity, they will be a force to recon with. But by then they will need a factory in the U.S. which will bring prices more in line with everyone elses reality.

miss66 · June 2004

I just read your message about a Honda transmission recall in April. Could you tell me a bit about this. I'm replacing my '94 dodge intrepid because of transmission problems so I don't want to go there again. Would appreciate any other honda accord info that might effect a buying decision. (I'm trying to decide between a honda and a toyota.)

nvbanker · June 2004

Well, Honda has had some recent (last couple of years) early transmission failures to everyone's surprise. They probably have it resolved now, but be careful of 02 & 03 models of the Accord & Oddessey. They seemed to die around 30,000 miles or so, if they were affected. Of course, all the Japanese companies actually can't believe they have a problem when one comes up for a long time, but Honda has finally acknowledged this one. Don't get me wrong, I respect Honda, I've owned a Honda and drove it for 180,000 trouble free miles. It's rare you find this in a Honda, which is what inspired the question of the topic. I didn't expect this from Honda. I'm wondering if they are starting to languish.

talon95 · June 2004

Relax about the Accord's transmission. The NHTSA site lists NO recalls of any kind for 2003 or 2004 Accords. The referenced recall from April affects Odysseys, Pilots and Acura MDX, NOT the Accord. The current generation Accord does NOT share transmission designs with the vehicles affected by the recall.

As I stated in another forum in answer to the same question, there are no major known issues with the new design transmission on 2003 and 2004 Accords, either L4 or V6. The transmission on the 2003 Accord is a new design compared to the 2002 Accord.

If the possibility of transmission problems is so high on your list of concerns, I strongly urge you to do your own research on the NHTSA site. While you can get much useful information in these forums, there's a lot of confusion and inaccurate information floating around regarding the Accord's transmission.

saugatak · June 2004

2003 MDX and on has new transmissions. 2002 MDX and below have faulty transmissions.

Pilots and Odys have the faulty transmissions.

2004 TL has new transmission.

TL Type-S have faulty transmissions.

nvbanker · June 2004

There sure is! Especially on the Accord thread - lots of owners really mad about how their Accord failed them.

NHTSA's recall list is only useful for "safety related" recalls, and this wouldn't qualify and... Honda never recalled them. Hell, they barely admitted there was a problem, in typical Japanese disbelief/denial fashion.

Still, I am not afraid to buy any Honda.

talon95 · June 2004

"There sure is! Especially on the Accord thread - lots of owners really mad about how their Accord failed them."

The question that I addressed was asking about 2004 (gen 7) Accords, although the post in this forum didn't specify that. I know this because the same poster specified the model year when asking the same question in the Honda Accord sedan forum. Look on the Accord forum and sure, you can find complaints, but with one or two exceptions, they all deal with gen 6 Accords.

nvbanker · June 2004

Fair enough.

grbeck · June 2004

gee35coupe: I mean honestly, there is no way anyone will look at the blandly styled Malibu or Taurus ten years from now and look forward to owning it.

The reason people value 10-year-old Accords and Civics isn't because of the styling, which was never exciting, although it has worn well. Mechanical reliability is what sells these cars. If the current Malibu and Taurus can match that reliability, then people will "look forward"
to owning one, despite the less-than-spectacular stying.

With few exceptions (the Aztek), styling isn't what kills the value of a vehicle in the used car market.

nvbanker · June 2004

There's styling, then there's bland, then there's ugly......

Styling - Chrysler
Bland - Toyota/Honda
Ugly - Aztek

grbeck · June 2004

...I've always thought Honda's designs wear well over the years. They aren't ever at the head of the pack, but they don't look out of date after 5-7 years.

nvbanker · June 2004

Moderate never goes totally out of style.

gee35coupe · June 2004

I know I wouldn't want a 10 year old Chrysler. I think the early Vipers look bloaty and cartoonish now. Guess I'll stick with the bland.

newcar31 · June 2004

You can mix those around a little bit depending on different models, but it's generally true. There are ugly Chryslers IMO, and good looking Hondas and Toyotas too. There are also ugly Hondas and Toyotas, especially recently, and ugly never ages well.

merc1 · June 2004

I might buy that there is at least one good looking Honda, the S2000. However I'm at a loss as to which current Toyota could be called good looking??

M

newcar31 · June 2004

I'm counting Lexus, and older models too. Right now, I think Toyota's trucks are decent looking, and I like certain Lexus models too.

And I don't agree that a car with non-bland styling doesn't age well. There are plenty of cars with non-bland styling that have aged well.

The second generation MR2 comes to mind. RX7s come to mind.

The 3rd generation RX7 could hardly be called bland and is arguably one of the most timeless designs to ever come out of Japan.

nvbanker · June 2004

I know, I know, but generally, although I only own one Chrysler, I think they make an effort to put some pizzazz into most of their designs. Hellovalot better than GM has done sans Cadillac of late. Any Intrepid, Concorde, even Stratus looks better to me than a Malibu or Taurus, Accord or Camry. Although, I will admit, the newest Honda and the newest Camry are growing on me. Or maybe it's the girl who drives the silver Accord that makes it look better, I don't know.....

varmint · June 2004

Most bold statements will go out of style eventually. Take the Hummer for example...

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0406/25/a01-194893.htm

There are designs that are regarded as "classic", meaning that we admire them accepting the time frame when they were built. There's a chronological context involved. But there are very few that are considered "timeless".

newcar31 · June 2004

"Most bold statements will go out of style eventually."

Most styling of any type will go out of style eventually. Chrysler K-car sedans were about as bland as you can get...and they are out of style.

badgerfan · June 2004

Just about anyone could predict that Hummer demand would slack off. It is a very niche vehicle and an expensive one at that. Once the initial demand is filled, sales figures are going to drop. Just like many others, such as the new Beetle, most 2 seater sports cars, the sustaining demand is going to be much reduced over the initial hoopla of the initial "Bold design" induced demand.

merc1 · June 2004

"I'm counting Lexus, and older models too. Right now, I think Toyota's trucks are decent looking, and I like certain Lexus models too."

Well lets see the only Lexus I see would be the 1992-1996 SC300/400, but only those years because for 1997 they completely destroyed the car with a long-overdue, but poorly done update. Other than that I really can't think or of see any other Toyota cars that looked like anything since 1990. Well ok, the current SC430 remains a "interesting" car to me. I'm still not sure how I feel about it's styling.

I of course disagree that bland ages well. Bland cars like the 1997-2001 Camry just become even more forgettable over time. If it wasn't at least good looking at first it never will be, imo. I guess I see "bland" as being out of or having no "style" to start with.

To me Japanese cars a road filler for the most part, rarely do they really hit a home run with styling.

I do agree that over the top design will age quicky. Vehicles like the 300C will likely age very quickly. It is already one of those cars that you either like or don't like. Cars from Mercedes, BMW (pre-Bangle), Jaguar seem to age very, very well, but I've not seen a Honda that the same can be said about.

Honda does do a better job at styling than Toyota in most cases, imo. I'm not sure what they were thinking when designing the 2003 Accord's rear, but compared to the Camry the Accord is only flawed at the rear, not all over like the Camry. Tall, bloated and wide the Camry is, all out of proportion.

I can't remember the particular RX7 you're talking about. Got a pic?

M

newcar31 · June 2004

"I can't remember the particular RX7 you're talking about. Got a pic?"

How could you forget?

Here's a pic from Edmunds, but IMO, this picture really doesn't do the car justice:

http://www.edmunds.com/used/1994/mazda/rx7/3026/photogallery.html- ?pg_type=Coupe%2FHatchback

newcar31 · June 2004

Is this bland?

carlisimo · June 2004

A little more variety of Hondas

http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/

(their lineup in Japan)

Pictures of the 2005 Odyssey in Japan

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message%5fid=143449&ne- ws%5fitem%5fid=143158

Maybe they think WE'RE the bland ones... (American buyers I mean, not our cars)

anonymousposts · June 2004

The 6 is a nicely designed car. But so is the Accord in my opinion. The only problem I have with the 6 is that it already looks "aged". It doesn't look like a 2003 design.

carguy58 · June 2004

I like it. It don't look aged. I don't see how. Yeah its agressive but its not 90's Pontiac styling or anything like that. The 6 looks like an 03 design. You think 10 years from now everybody is going to be look at a Cadillac CTS or Infinti G35? Those 2 cars will look old.

Everybody complains the way the Japanese style cars. The Domestic Big 3 made some ugly cars in the 90's. Just now they are learning not to do that. Everybody says how Honda is bland. In the 90's Honda's cars looked better than most cars. Pontiac, Buick, or Caddy in the 90's. Their cars looked horrible to me. Pontiac's looked overstyled and gimmicky. Buick=bland, and Caddy having an idenity crisis.

I look at the styling period of the 90's and I saw good styled cars from Mazda like the 90 Miata, 93 626 and MX-6, and the 95 Millenia. I look at the mid the late 90's period and I see good styling from Chrysler with the Viper, 1st gen Sebring, the Ram, and the 300M. Also Mitsubishi if you don't forget had a good line-up of styled cars from 94-99 like the 94 3000GT, 95 Eclipse, 97 Diamante, and 99 Galant(look like a scaled down 92-98 3 Series though.)

So 2 out of 3 the company's I just named are Japanese. The Japanese I don't think have problems styling cars. I mean ome on the new Audi A6 is a disaster in the styling department as are the new BMW's(the 6 Series is ok looking except for the rear.)

Finally, Honda has proven they can style good cars if they want to. Mazda is good with that. I think Toyota is what everybody is focusing on. Toyota;'s have always been bland. Toyota only takes chances with niche models like the Celica. Toyota styling lacks consistency. They are not like Honda or Mazda where they evolve a design from one generation of model from the next. I mean you take alook at the 92 Camry, 97 Camry, and then 02 Camry. They all look so different. Toyota just goes with different exterior design direction all the time. There is actually styling direction with the Corolla over the years but I don't like how it evolved with the new model. The 93-97 and 98-02 models were bland but respectable looking.

Everybody is saying how Mercedes and BMW outclass Honda in styling. Mercedes does conservative designs too that age well. I think Honda's designs of 10 years ago age better than most. Mercedes doesn't sell mass market cars like Civic or Accord.

Response to post 930(scape 2:)

Hyundai and GM have nothing to do with each other. Hyundai is their own independent company.

Lastly, for all the people that want to bash Honda over the tranny issue I don't get that at all. Just because Honda had problems with tranny's in their last generation of cars does mean they are going to have problems with their newer models. I can't say if the newer models will have problems but I know this much. Chrysler had problems with tranny's in Dodge Caravan's and nobody is like oh well I am not going to buy a Dodge again. If Honda has a problems all the pro-Domestic seem to jump at Honda. Why? Its not like the Domestic's don't have their problems too.

I admit the playing field for reliability has leveled out. More car sales are being dictated by exterior styling which I do happen to like.

carlisimo · June 2004

I was trying to stick to Honda, but oh well. After seeing those JDM Hondas I looked up Toyota's JDM lineup, and wow... they're not bland there!

http://www.toyota.co.jp/sp/corolla/newcorolla/runx/index.html (I can't believe it... I'm in love with a Corolla. And I am guessing that the Corolla Runx is what they call the hatchback.)

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Cami/index.htm- l (angry SUV)

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/AlphardV/index- .html (um... minivan?)

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/Ipsum/index.ht- ml (a more normal minivan)

http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/willcypha/inde- x.html (small car)

I'm guessing most edmunds.com readers will find them too strange, or offensive, though not bland. Toyota either thinks that Americans like bland, or they're scared to try to guess what we consider unbland. Maybe that's the experiment they're doing with Scion...

saugatak · June 2004

Lastly, for all the people that want to bash Honda over the tranny issue I don't get that at all. Just because Honda had problems with tranny's in their last generation of cars does mean they are going to have problems with their newer models.

Some of their newer models have the same exact transmission that has failed on older models such as the 2004 Odyssey and 2004 Honda Pilot. Why couldn't Honda put into the 2004 Pilot and Odyssey the "fixed" redesigned transmission that went into the 2003 MDX?

I can't say if the newer models will have problems but I know this much.

I feel comfortable predicting that the 2004 Pilot and Odyssey WILL have transmission problems. And it's sad, b/c the solution is there (starting with 2003 MDX), Honda just failed to implement it.

Chrysler had problems with tranny's in Dodge Caravan's and nobody is like oh well I am not going to buy a Dodge again.

Not true. All of the domestics have slowly but surely been losing sales to the Japanese, even though domestics are usually priced less. Why is that?

Maybe because people perceived a reliability gap between Japanese cars and domestic cars. So there are lots of people who have said, "I'm never going to buy Domestic Brand X" after having problems with a domestic.

If Honda has a problems all the pro-Domestic seem to jump at Honda. Why? Its not like the Domestic's don't have their problems too.

Misery loves company!

driftracer · June 2004

I work as an investigator/consultant/expert witness for lemon law and breach of warranty cases - we cover PA, DE, MD, NJ, and NY - THINK of the Honda population in that region...

I've seen ONE Honda transmission-related case in three years, with covering vehicles ranging from 1998-1999 to present models.

isellhondas · June 2004

Wow...amazing how things get overblown!

According to everything I've read, the problem rate is something like 2% or less. The vast majority will have no problems.

Still, 2% is too many and I'm glad the've got it under control.

robertsmx · June 2004

I find absolutely nothing exciting about the profile of the 6. It looks like virtually every other car on the road. Tell me, what is so different about it? And from that angle, the rear actually resembles Cavalier's.

Two of my all time mainstream favorites from styling perspective (in US, of course) have been the early 90s Legend, and the 2000+ Millenia. And the new TL is the latest I could add to the list.

anonymousposts · June 2004

But to be honest, it looks like a decontented Millenia. Take away some chrome and other trim from the Millenia and you have a 6 all day long. But I guess that would have to be case to keep brand continuity. Benz and BMW do it too. Can't tell the difference between a C, E, or S class unless you measure em.

saugatak · June 2004

I've seen ONE Honda transmission-related case in three years, with covering vehicles ranging from 1998-1999 to present models.

That doesn't mean the transmissions aren't going, it just means that when a Honda transmission gets busted, Honda is stepping up to "fix" it.

You only see the cases where (a) something is busted and (b) manufacturer doesn't fix it.

Sometimes the "fix" avoids lemon laws but it's a cruddy fix. At least for the TL-S, the "fix" is to put in a new/reman transmission which limits the top speed and revs so that the transmission isn't stressed.

I'd be pissed if I forked over extra cash for what I thougth was a 260HP car, got a busted transmission, and then the fix turned it into a 220HP car.

driftracer · June 2004

"You only see the cases where (a) something is busted and (b) manufacturer doesn't fix it."

Why would you presume to know what my job entails and the nature of the cases I see? You have no experience in my field or with the lawfirm I consult for, as we've never worked together. 99% of the vehicles I see are "fixed", but they're still eleigible for lemon law suits.

Makes that almost 100%.

nvbanker · June 2004

"If Honda has a problems all the pro-Domestic seem to jump at Honda. Why?"

Because it's so darn unusual, Carguy! And as to the Dodge tranny problems, don't think for a minute that people don't say they'll never buy another Caravan, they do say that, and they then buy an Odyssey or Sienna. I only bought a Caravan because I didn't want to pay the $4,000 premium to get a Previa or Quest. And, frankly, couldn't find any to buy anyway, they're so scarce on the used market.

saugatak · June 2004

I'm not a lemon law expert, but my understanding is that if the defect is fixed, then the consumer doesn't have a lemon law case.

Isn't it something like 3 strikes and you're out type of thing? Manufacturer gets 3 chances to fix the defect, and if the defect is a substantial one, consumer can win the lemon law case?

carguy58 · June 2004

Honda is just like Mazda both company's do the littke resemblnce thing all the time. Honda with the 03 Accord used headlights from the 01 Civic. As for Mercedes yes all their cars do look the same for the most part.

The Mazda 6 remind of me what the Accord used to be in the 80's and 90's. The other day while I was at the Jersey Shore I was walking back to the hotel and on my way back to the hotel there I saw an early 90's Accord and the current Accord across the way. I was looking at what makes the early 90's Accord more appetizing to me than the new one. I just think the design from early 90's one was more thought out in the design process out than the current model was. As for the rear of the 6 the current Accord looks like a Buick and somebody saying how the 6 looks like a Cavilier. Huh!

response to post 965(nvbanker:)

The Carvan still sells well. It looks like the transmission didn't hurt sales. You see Carvan's everywhere. As for the Sienna I would not touch the current one. I don't like the styling.

As for Honda having problems with cars I;m sure had they had problems with cars in the 80's. Every car company has its problems.

Response to post 958 on Honda tranny's(sugatak:)

People keep on buying Oddy's and MDX. The supposed tranny issue is not hurting sales. Believe me Honda is one of the best at taking care of their problems unlike VW.

Another thing I will include is this is 2004 everybody builds a solid car. Its not the 80's anymore. As a young person I understand this. Some people say I don't know about buying XXX brand because maybe I will have problems. I'm not like that.

BTW, what bothers me is mainly is the domestics have problems. The Ford Escape in its first year had all kinda of bugs to work out. The Ford Focus had 13 recalls. I find this discussion amusing actually.

The Germans Mercedes just had a brake recall. BMw has all kinds of problems with the new I-Drive. VW's get recalled for coil packs and everybody is bashing Honda. Its like shocking to me.

saugatak · June 2004

The Germans Mercedes just had a brake recall. BMw has all kinds of problems with the new I-Drive. VW's get recalled for coil packs and everybody is bashing Honda. Its like shocking to me.

Check out MB, BMW and VW boards. They're all getting bashed for the problems you mentioned, and deservedly so.

2% transmission failure rate is a MAJOR problem. Honda has earned its bashing, just like the German makes have.

nvbanker · June 2004

I don't see it as bashing at all. We just didn't expect to see Honda stubbing their toe, because they really have never done that before, and it's remarkable to us. We expect it from the Europeans and Domestics on a regular basis. We are not shocked that the BMW X-5 is now up to, what, 16 recalls? But for Honda to have anything at all to be concerned with, it's amazing. And then, I started this thread just because of the article I saw where their sales for the first time, are in recession. They've had an awesome run. The question is; is this temporary and they get back on their almost perfect game, or are they starting to come apart? I'm still betting on them, BTW.

gee35coupe · June 2004

Humans beings should have such a defect rate. I don't see the big deal in 2 out of a hundred. 20 out of a thousand. 200 out of 10,000. or 2000 out of 100,000. Sounds like 8000 out of 400,000 might go bad. Not really all that bad. Cept to the folk that get one.

But once it's fixed, chances should be in ones favor that they won't get another.

driftracer · June 2004

"I'm not a lemon law expert, but my understanding is that if the defect is fixed, then the consumer doesn't have a lemon law case."

No, that's incorrect - in MOST states, whether the car is repaired is pretty much irrelevant - the lemon law situation exists because of the fact that the failures and repairs happened at all, and are now a permanent part of the vehicle's service history, which affects the value of the vehicle when compared to others in the market with a clear history.

Now, you may not get a full-blown buyback if the car is repaired, but there is compensation due.

saugatak · June 2004

Humans beings should have such a defect rate.

I wish we were at 2%. Unfortunately, it's probably higher.

I don't see the big deal in 2 out of a hundred. 20 out of a thousand. 200 out of 10,000. or 2000 out of 100,000. Sounds like 8000 out of 400,000 might go bad. Not really all that bad. Cept to the folk that get one.

Well that last part "Cept to the people who get one" is key now, isn't it?

But seriously 2% is very high. And it's a MAJOR defect. Not only can it leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere, but if the transmission blows in the middle of a highway, and you stop suddenly, you can get rearended.

But once it's fixed, chances should be in ones favor that they won't get another.

Sometimes lightning does strike twice or even three times. Edmunds boards are filled with people who are very angry b/c they've had to have multiple transmission replacements.

saugatak · June 2004

So if my car has a problem, and the dealer fixes it 100%, I can still sue him for the knockdown in trade-in value?

That's crazy. I have no problem with lawyers making money when dealers/manufacturers don't honor warranties or do crappy repair jobs, but when they fix it up 100% . . .

How much can trade-in values be knocked down by a good repair job? I'd feel better seeing that a part is fixed.

talon95 · June 2004

"Not only can it leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere, but if the transmission blows in the middle of a highway, and you stop suddenly, you can get rearended.

Sometimes lightning does strike twice or even three times."

Your lightning metaphor is an appropriate one, since you're probably as likely to actually get struck by lightning as you are to experience the worst case scenarios you describe. These transmission issues are not of the type where everything is perfectly lovely and then BAM! Sudden total failure! The typical scenario is that affected units begin to exhibit obvious symptoms (changes in shifting and torque converter lockup behavior) that get progressively worse over time... commonly over the course of several thousand miles. Only if these symptoms are completely ignored is total failure of the transmission a possible or likely outcome.

And I know from which I speak... I owned an affected 2000 Accord V6 that had the transmission replacement done.

I agree that we shouldn't downplay the severity of these issues. By the same token, there's little to be gained by overdramatizing them.

saugatak · June 2004

It's not just the transmission. Too high a percentage of Accords and TLs have too many rattles and creaks.

I'm convinced that Honda's build quality has actually gone down the last few years.

Has Honda's run - run out?

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