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Not always. Some bodyshops do a better job than factory. Lamettreys here in Mpls does better than factory work. They're the people who will paint your Ferrari if it needs it, but they'll also do your Honda. When I took autobody in high school, the motor cycle tank I painted had a better finish than any of your average cars' factory finishes. Most factory finishes have at least a little orange peel. You never know. There are excellent bodyshops, and then there are so-so body shops, and then there's Maco. The same goes for dealership service departments.
"Let's wait and see how many people actualy have to get new transmissions before we compare it to the Mazda6 which actually had the rust problem."
And Hondas ACTUALLY have transmission problems. If Honda needs to alter the design of the transmission, then there IS a problem.
But one time, I had a buddy of mine try to spot the body work on my car. Damned if he didn't find every factory flaw on the car (which if you look closely enough, just about ANY car will have plenty of them...it's just a matter of whether you can spot it from 6 inches or 50 feet!) But he never could find the spot where it was repainted.
My car's silver too, which I hear is a real female dog to match up properly. Also, silver's a real famous color for early fade, especially as a repaint. After 4 years, mine has held up admirably.
It's also been appraised on two separate occasions, when I thought about trading the car in, and neither time did was any mention brought up about the body work.
It's the same thing. You could argue the doors will never seal as well as the originals installed at the factory. You could end up with wind noise, water leaks, a less solid thunk when you close it.
Non-factory paint might mismatch, peel, whatever.
Still, I'd rather have a new door than a noticeably stained one, IMO.
Honda isn't telling you that 1 million owners that they *must* replace the transmission. That's your choice, surely. At least they are offering it, and extending the coverage.
Did Mazda at least extend the corrosion protection? Offer to re-skin or re-paint? I don't actually know, but I'm curious.
-juice
I guess Earl Scheib isn't even worth mentioning. You might as well paint your car with a brush!
Now back to our topic...
That would suck. I wouldn't want new doors, but then again, I don't think that I need new doors. If the doors *needed* to be replaced, that would be grounds for getting rid of the car IMO.
"You could argue the doors will never seal as well as the originals installed at the factory. You could end up with wind noise, water leaks, a less solid thunk when you close it."
I would be concerned about all of those things. I agree.
"Non-factory paint might mismatch, peel, whatever."
Factory paint might do that too. Most companies still haven't been able to perfectly match painted plastic bumper covers with regular body panels. Most people can't tell, but I can.
"Still, I'd rather have a new door than a noticeably stained one, IMO."
Noticeably is the key word there. I'd rather have what I have now than new doors.
"Did Mazda at least extend the corrosion protection?"
No, but IMO, I think they should extend the warranty for the affected areas, if it really isn't that big of a deal.
Not all bodywork is equal. A new hood and fender aren't that big of a deal to me if they're done right, and I would definately rather have that done than have the transmission replaced on a brand new car. OTOH, if the car needs to go on a frame rack, that's a whole nother' story.
Now, if I can do it right (well to do it right, I probably should have replaced the hinges too, which were starting to sag), I'd like to think a competent body shop could!
The only cars I have seen drop a tranny faster, were GMs with the Metric 200. Both were Oldsmobiles.
For the most part, they are the best. They also have super loyal customers that many times "see no evil, hear no evil" when it comes to their beloved Toyondas. Toyotas and Hondas aren't perfect, and they do have problems, but many of their followers minimize these problems and crucify other manufacturers when they have problems.
If Mazda or any other company issued the same recall, we wouldn't hear the end of it. Since it's Honda though, the recall is being regarded as simple preventive maintenance that isn't really necessary. Honda didn't screw up, they went "above and beyond".
Honda doesn't need to deny anything, their loyal customers already do.
I think most everyone does that. Not just "Honda followers"
How else could one type post after post about the voluntary transmission recall while minimizing the "staining" of their own Mazda6?
I'm not minimizing the "staining" of my Mazda6. Like I said, I'm not happy about it, but it hasn't gotten worse, and it's been through a salty winter. I know one thing for sure, I'd be more confident in buying another Mazda that doesn't have the "staining" problem than buying an automatic Honda. And I realize that every company has loyal followers that minimize problems. I dealt with Mazda folks like that in the Mazda6 thread. Remember? I'm sure you're familiar with that....but I'm not sure what Mazda's issues have to do with Honda's latest recall.
Anyway, IMO, Honda and Toyota followers are the ones most likely to look past or minimize problems only because "it's a Honda" or "it's a Toyota".
Mazda just doesn't have the reputation to earn such fiercely loyal and sometimes blind customers.
My point is, the SUT can succeed if they price it carefully. It should cost the same or perhaps a little less than the Pilot.
Also, I bet there are more LX models, fewer EXs. I think I've only seen one Pilot LX in my lifetime, hundreds of EXs. One dealer had 100 in stock and 93 were EXs.
A more utilitarian pickup might mean we see more of those LX models.
Price it $1000 lower than the Pilot and they will easily see 40k sales. If it's $1000 higher I bet they struggle.
-juice
Don't kid yourself... we haven't heard the end of the gen 6 transmission problems, and we won't hear the end of this one, either.
There was much speculation as to the cause of the slowdown in Accord sales early this season. Some attributed it to the soft market, others posited that the Accord had "styling challenges" that were driving away customers.
Well, the past 2 months seem to be an indication that the soft market was the main culprit. Accord sales were up 10% over June of last year, which was itself a record. And the June sales volume has brought YTD sales of the Accord to within 1,800 units of last year, less than 1% behind. Honda has almost completely caught up from a 14% YTD sales deficit for the Accord over the past 2 months.
What effect will this recall have on the Accord's sale momentum going forward? Of course, only time will tell, but the Odyssey had record June sales despite its recall for the same reason that was announced in April. Pilot sales also set a record, again despite the April recall. To me, this indicates that the general public perception is that Honda is on top of the recall issue, so confidence in Honda quality is still high and the recall isn't negatively affecting purchase decisions for most people.
As for Acura's sports sedans, sales for both the TSX and TL are up around 40% over last year. So although these cars may not be exactly what the hardcore enthusiasts want, it seems that they ARE what the public wants.
Ah, I guess you're right on that one. I guess what I mean is that if Ford issued the recall, people would say "just another piece of crap Ford".
Honda is doing the same thing here. While it is all well and good for the Honda defenders to laud them for preemptively reacting to this transmission design defect, Honda is not doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They have discovered a design defect, (not a random small percentage type part defect) that could cause premature transmission failure in a very large amount of vehicles. Thus they have no choice but to do the recall. Either they pay for the recall expenses now, or pay even more for failed transmissions and loss of consumer confidence in Honda later on.
All manufacturers are being more proactive than they were in the past as they are all trying to preserve or improve their perceived quality and reliability. Thus we see a lot more recalls in recent years than in the past, even though virtually every manufacturer has been building higher quality and more reliable vehicles now than in the past.
I don't think many people are trying to say that Honda is doing this out of the goodness of their heart. I'm a Honda fan, but I'm not blind. I realize that this is a recall to correct a design defect, not an attempt by Honda to elicit a group hug among its customers. And I'd hazard to guess that most Honda fans understand this recall for what it is. It's just that a proactive stance that attempts to nip a more serious problem in the bud is reassuring to many of the owners whose cars are affected. While the proactive recall is certainly in Honda's best interest, it's in the customer's best interest as well.
But let's keep things in perspective here. So far, there don't seem to be that many failures in the real world. And if Honda is issuing a recall to protect its image, at least it realizes that it has an image to protect, and this sort of fiasco can ruin it in a heartbeat.
How many other manufacturers would stonewall or do this quietly, fixing each problem under warranty (the failures seem to be happening rather early in the vehicle's life), never making an announcement, and then leaving owners with failures outside of the warranty cutoff to fend for themselves?
And let's compare Honda's recall to the actions of other manufacturers. How many Ford owners suffered through Taurus and Windstar transmission failures before Ford finally agreed to step up to the plate? How long did it take Ford to own up the weak head gaskets on the 3.8 V-6? There are entire websites devoted to owner complaints about Ford's initial refusal to own up to these problems!
And let's not forget the fragile transmissions in Mopar minivans. That has gone on for over a decade!
Hey, I like Ford and Chrysler. Even though I own an Accord and like Honda products, I don't automatically look down on Ford and Chrysler products as "domestic junk." If I needed a truck, I'd buy an F-150 over any Toyota or Nissan. But I also have some knowledge of their past foul-ups, which keeps things in perspective.
Isn't that exactly what Honda did with the other transmission issues for a while? 98-02 Accords?
"In all, Honda is recalling more than 1.1 million Accords, Acuras, Odyssey minivans, and Pilot and Acura SUVs. That's nearly 90% of the company's total annual U.S. sales for all of 2003 (1.35 million)! So relatively speaking, the magnitude of Honda's recall is about three times as significant as the numerically larger GM recalls that we wrote about here earlier this year."
I would agree. Honda is no longer a small company, but they are nothing compared to the conglomerates like Ford, DCX, and GM. A recall of this size is going to sting.
I see a Type R grass-slayer in our future.
Nah, they'll probably keep the Type-R mowers in Japan and Europe. They always get the best lawn mowers. People in the US don't seem to care much about lawn mowers, they just see them as appliances.
I'd love it if they brought the Type-Rs here. I can't imagine what mowing the lawn would be like when the VTEC kicks in.
The second recall was a little worse...the bolts holding the driver's backrest in place were too weak, and could break.
But still, another buyer of a 2000 Intrepid might have a different experience. Another buyer might not have been affected by any of those recalls, but perhaps yet another might have been affected by all 5!
I don't think there's much to worry about here.
If I had a dollar for every time some ignorant Honda fan has said to me, "Do you know how VTEC works?" . . .
When I say Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, MB, Audi, VW, et al use VVT or VANOS or other variations of VTEC in their cars, the reply is: "No, you see, Honda has VTEC."
It also seems as though we are holding Honda to a much higher standard than other carmakers, at least other non-luxury car makers.
How many other car makers are going to replace a part or component that has not failed and showed no signs of failing, unless it is a safety related matter?
Before she married my brother, my sister-in-law bought a brand-new 1996 Dodge Neon. The head gasket failed in 1999, which was quite common with first-generation Neons. She was still fighting with Chrysler over the reimbursement in the year 2000 (the year she married my brother).
In view of her experience, I'm quite satisifed with the way Honda handled POSSIBLE transmission problems with my Prelude.
That's just it - Ford, Chevy or Dodge have NEVER been proactive - their components fail, they install a reman trans or engine, and they press on down the road. I applaud Honda and Toyota for their recent "step-ups" - the domestic manufacturers won't do this sort of thing and will continue to be outranked by imports, unfortunately.
I'm going to three DCC lemon law trials in two days (today and tomorrow, two in NJ, one in Philly) - all great cases, all should have been immediate buybacks, but after nearly two years, the cases are hitting trials - why? Because DCC won't step up and do the right thing - they'd rather fight tooth and nail over obvious defects than take care of business the right way.
Better late than never. :-)
I don’t think of recalls as a bad thing as long as the problem gets identified and fixed and that there aren’t too many of them on every bit and pieces that go into a car. It is simply impossible to be perfect.
Some manufacturers continue to insist there is “no problem” until forced upon by an external agency/lawsuit. The Firestone fiasco was a great example of mudslinging. I would also put Toyota’s sludge issue along similar lines, where the company appeared to blame it on customers instead of its design.
OTOH, some manufacturers will acknowledge problems that they exist, even if they aren’t sure at the moment of the root cause, and that can take some time.
Obviously, I’d appreciate the second approach.
If there aren't that many failures to be concerned about, Honda should have never sent the letter in the first place.
If it was me, a letter like that would only make me paranoid. It wouldn't make me feel better about my car. It would make me constantly wonder "when is this tranny going to die?".
Of course they're bigger now and can't afford that with each recall. They dragged their feet with the sludge thing, too.
-juice
And in part, I can understand that argument somewhat. Honda/Acura sure seems to be getting different treatment from some here about the tranny issue. Yes Honda doesn't have the rep that Ford does for recalls, but it does seem odd to me.
-juice
I didn’t see much hoopla (or participate in one) regarding Focus, but if Ford did take the initiative, I would appreciate it just as much as I would, for any other brand.