NHTSA told them it was OK. They corraborated on the investigation and came to the same conclusion. Sure the fires start IF the oil is changed wrong. But wheels fall off IF the lugs aren't tightened. You car CAN catch fire from static electricity at the fuel pump. Brakes CAN fail if the bleeder valve isn't tightened. BUT we trust all those technicians to do the job correctly. If the oil is changed correctly, Honda and NHTSA says there will be no fire.
can still be negated by design therefore the problem is still a design problem. your car can catch fire by static if the atmosphere contains the proper conditions, this is not by design. This condition can be corrected if all cars are supplied with an anti static pad and the people use them before pumping fuel. 9 of 27 fire were the result of double filters. What was the remaining?
going to wait until a child burns in a car seat before the proper correction is made? The simple fact still remains that human error can be removed if the company is willing to take the proper steps.
You are still driving on the roads with cell phone users and others of that ilk.
If human error is the cause of the fires, I don't think it's Honda's job to correct it. Like I said before, if Jiffy Lube can't guarantee they can correctly change the oil, they need to omit CRV's from the list of cars they service. That would omit "Jiffy Lube" error from the mix. Like this one... http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/incidentresponse/weekly/may03/5-19/defaul- t.htm "Forgotten oil cap sparks fiery incident on SR 16" Maybe we ought to put a tether on the oil caps.
I'm sure there are cars that won't catch fire when the oil cap is left out too. I know the 1988 Celica engine won't because it happened to me. But there will be no fire if the oil cap is placed where it belongs. Same with the oil filter.
"The simple fact still remains that human error can be removed if the company is willing to take the proper steps"
Did I read that right? I guess I did. Someone is suggesting that we should make products smart enough to keep stupid people from doing stupid things? Then, we can sue the companies because we're still stupid and we get ourselves hurt?
Do you REALLY need a warning label that tells you not to try to remove a fan belt from a running engine??
I'm sorry, but I'm a BIG fan of common sense - everyone else should be, too.
My interpretation of the posts about Honda fixing the "design issue" is that people feel they should add some layer of protection to minimize the chance of a fire in case of an oil leak (whether from a poorly executed oil change, or even part failure (bad gasket?). If they know that a leak has a high probability of turning into a fire, and they can't move the filter, than maybe a heat shield could be added.
Yes, cars are inherently dangerous if they are maintained properly (such as tightening lug nuts), but there are some reasonable steps that can be taken to mitigate logically anticipated occurances.
if you really want to blame someone (or thing), start with the government. The emissions regulations have led to many of the engineering feats that come into play with these fires. That is, the need to get the exhaust (cats) as hot as possible as soon as possible, so you end up with real hot exhaust cmponents right up by the engine. A little oil leaking on an exhaust pipe might not do anything, but oil on a cat sure can.
Sounds like negligence to me. If your job is to check such things is to do so and you don't, you should get sued. At best you could toast an engine. At worst you could toast a person. Either case it was YOUR negligence that caused the damage.
Here's the problem with your statement. Let's say I take my Honda CR-V to Jiffy Lube for an oil change and they screw it up. The CR-V blows up killing me.
My wife and son would rather have me alive and well (I think?) than the money to be obtained from suing Jiffy Lube.
Get the point? Lawsuits aren't the answer for something like this. Proper design to prevent FORSEEABLE negligence from being life threatening is.
According to the report, NHTSA and American Honda Motor Co. agreed that oil from the filters most likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting.
How does this disprove my statement that TV reports were passing along NHTSA safety warnings about the CR-V blowing up?
If Jiffy lube can't guarantee the work they do then they should not work on this car. It is squarely on the back of the employee whether the fires occur. They either guarantee the work or risk a huge lawsuit from negligence.
I've already detailed my problems with the lawsuit answer.
If a do it youselfer doesn't do the job correctly, the blame is still the same. He didn't properly change the oil. Just as if in any other car the engine siezes from improper maintenance. It ain't Honda's fault.
WRONG. IT IS HONDA'S FAULT. Nobody else is making a car that blows up in your face after a bad oil change.
People shouldn't have to risk dying or getting severely burned due to a bad oil change.
This has been some amazing reading for the last 80+ posts.
I must say that if this were GM, Ford or Chrysler or even VW everyone would be saying that these companies are up to more of the same, building junk.
However since this is Honda its a mistake and thus can be overlooked and more interestingly it isn't even their fault. Of the millions of cars on the road and the many more oil changes all these cars have had in say just the last 5 years, how many botched oil changes do you think have been performed without the car catching on fire? There probably have been hundreds of thousands of botched oil changes by guys at oil change places all over the U.S and by Joe America who didn't know what he was doing, at least the first couple of times, but there hasn't been any widespread or even mention of something like this before. Wonder why? If various Honda's have the same powertrain etc. and only the CRV is affected then it would *seem* that something about the CRV is amiss. Could it be the placement of certain components due to the CRV being intended for light off-road duty? I don't know.
Do we know where the majority of these "bad" oil changes took place? Honda dealers or Jiffy, Oil-Experts, some local mom and pop??? The article at the autochannel.com says this happened after the first oil change which is almost always done by the dealer. If that is the case then it is surely a Honda fault. You can't brag about how good Japanese car ownership is based on great service and then disown the service department after they muck up.
I'm curious. Has Honda corrected this potential problem or are they waiting for a "class action lawsuit"? Such as the Explorer/Firestone mess. As long as we have an endless supply of leaching attorney's in this country, it would behoove Honda to take steps to prevent any possible hazard in their vehicles.
Interesting . . . you call the class action attorney "leaching attorney's" but then you credit them for the litigation that forced Ford and Firestone to fix the rollover problems.
Are the "leaching attorneys" to blame for Honda CR-Vs blowing up after an oil change?
Let's place blame where blame is due, in this case on Honda's engineers.
if you really want to blame someone (or thing), start with the government. The emissions regulations have led to many of the engineering feats that come into play with these fires. That is, the need to get the exhaust (cats) as hot as possible as soon as possible, so you end up with real hot exhaust cmponents right up by the engine. A little oil leaking on an exhaust pipe might not do anything, but oil on a cat sure can.
Come on, you can't blame the government.
Clean air is a necessity. 15 years ago in LA the air was horrendous. People had to stay indoors on bad smog days b/c the exhaust from cars was so bad.
Nobody else is having problems meeting emissions standards without torching the engine. Honda should be able to do it too.
then I'm going to sit back and watch this ridiculous debate.
In 1998, my father in law drove his overloaded 1992 GMC S-15 Extended Cab 4x4, towing a 25 ft Terry trailer (loaded), from Libby, MT on his way home to Medford, OR. When going over Pendleton Pass (8400 ft) in Eastern Oregon, the transmission overheated, puking trans fluid out through the fill tube, spilling out into the engine compartment, down the firewall, and onto the exhaust. The fluid hit the cats, of course, and the truck caught fire. He and my mother in law noticed the smoke and pulled over right away - by the time they got out of the truck, the fire was started well, and all they could do is watch and get the dogs out of the back of the truck. It burnt to the ground.
Now - is this GM's fault? Should we go on a witch hunt? NO. Why? because my father in law exceeded the safe towing limits on the truck by several thousand pounds, overworking the truck, especially when going over the pass. Additionally, he didn't install an aftermarket transmission cooler. His fault. Period. Insurance totaled the truck, of course, and never even considered looking at the manufacturer.
Now - let me tell you something about Honda that most of you have no way of knowing. Do you know why I've only seen 12 Honda lemon law cases in 3.5 years? Is it because Hondas don't have problems? Yes, partly. The primary reason is that Honda will step up and buy someone out of a car instead of making the consumer deal with the hassle and headache of 2 years worth of litigation, like just about every other manufacturer in the nation, Toyota included.
My point? People make mistakes. Bad things happen.
One more question, first a scenario - in 1968, when I was 4, my mom was making me some toast in our kitchen, using a GE toaster. She left the room for a moment, and I was an impatient little kid, so I thought I'd get the toast out of the toaster sooner. I pulled a chair over to the counter, took a table knife, and inserted it in the toaster to attempt in prying the toast out. It shocked the heck out of me and actually knocked me out of the chair and onto the floor.
Whose fault is that? GE? Nope. My mom's, for leaving a dumb little kid alone with an active electrical device, a chair, and a knife, and mine, to doing the act. No one got sued, and I wasn't spanked since she figured I'd had enough trouble already.
Let me say, for the record, that I know McDonald's fries are not "low carb" or "low fat", or "low calorie". The problem is, I like Mickey D's fries - they taste great - in my opinion, they're the best fast food fries out there. I also know that if I had 6 large orders of fries a day, along with the burgers and cokes (not diet), I'd blow up like a helium balloon. It takes common sense, just a little bit of education, and the assumption of self-responsibility to counter my desire to eat 6 orders of fries per day - that, and that nasty, greasy, queasy feeling I'd have all the time...
Enjoy your day, and lighten up, and get off the "I'm suing everyone who doesn't protect me from my own stupidity" bandwagon.
"Are the "leaching attorneys" to blame for Honda CR-Vs blowing up after an oil change?"
It may be a pet phrase of yours, but please stop using the inflammatory (no pun intended) term of "blowing up" when describing this issue. I don't believe that explosions are part of the problem here. While catching fire is undeniably a serious issue, actually "blowing up" is clearly even worse.
I'm a big Honda fan, love my Accord, and I've frequently gone to the mat for them when I thought someone was criticizing them unfairly. But even I have to agree that Honda's current stance on the CR-V issue is unacceptable. All of this debate about whose fault it is is meaningless. Honda still has an obligation to address the safety and peace of mind of their customers, and sending better instructions to the dealers and to oil change franchises falls WAY short of fulfilling that obligation. When it comes to these safety issues, the buck stops with Honda. Only they are in the position to eliminate, once and for all, the possibility of such major consequences for such a minor error. A minor oil leak due to a minor oversight should NOT have the potential of resulting in an engine fire. I can't believe that we're even discussing this as if it were an acceptable situation.
While I don't own a CR-V, I'm just trying to imagine having the oil changed and then driving home. What are you supposed to do, hold your breath while you wait to see any smoke or flames? I don't think so. There are two potentially affected CR-Vs in my family (a cousin and a brother-in-law), and the latter was following my advice when he got his CR-V.
The transmission recall is a pretty small concern for me, since the outcome for most owners should be a visit to a dealership for a relatively minor modification. More serious complications are limited to vehicles with relatively high mileage that were driven under very specific conditions. And yes, Honda should receive accolades for being proactive about the transmission issue. Nobody is excusing the fact that the issue exists in the first place, but since it does, a proactive stance that should prevent actual problems for the majority of owners is about the best they can do under the circumstances.
In the face of that reaction to a problem, Honda's stance on the CR-V situation is baffling. Compared to the transmission issue, the consequences are far more serious and it has the potential for affecting thousands of CR-V owners immediately. But this time, Honda goes on the defensive and starts pointing fingers to blame others, rather than grabbing the bull by the horns as they did with the transmission situation. IMO, serious damage control is required here, for the sake of Honda's reputation, but more importantly for the safety and peace of mind of their customers. If I were them, I'd get some kind of shield designed and out there ASAP and then do the recall, offering a free oil and filter change as part of the service.
C'mon, Honda execs, get your heads out of the sand and do what you need to do for everyone's sake.
the government comment was only semi-serious, to make a point, which is there are consequences to actions. If you want the heat right by the engine, than there is a higher probablility that a combustible fluid will get on a really hot part.
IMO, this is not a defective design, just a poor one, and Honda should make a change in response (move the filter, put on a heat shield, or something). Even if they don't think there is "really" a problem, but just to deal the bad PR.
Of course parts can fail, and in the example Drift used (the tranny), overloading or abusing a vehicle can certainly lead to a failure with bad results, but I don't think that not getting a perfect seal on an oil filter is in the same catagory of grossly exceeding the towing capacity of your truck.
And, unlike overlodaing the car or running out of gas, or even keeping proper tire inflation pressure (ala the Explorer), the oil filter isn't really in the control of the owner (how many people can even see the damned thing on the back of a transverse engine)?
The problem can still be negated by design therefore the problem is still a design problem.
Last week, I noticed a plume of smoke (later turned out to be dust) from the other side of the freeway. And suddenly I noticed a wheel traveling perpendicular to the freeway (on my side of the traffic). It hit a Grand Cherokee and bounced off it. Fortunately nothing much happened with the only victim being the Jeep (hopefully everybody inside it was alright).
Now, the wheel flew off, probably due to improper install. Should we blame Jeep for it? As you say, this problem could have been negated by welding the wheel instead of having the mechanic to deal with lug nuts. Is that right?
So, how many 2002 CR-Vs are affected? Haven’t seen mention of those. If this were truly a design issue, should we have seen a few of those as well? Unless Honda decided to change the design going from 2002 to 2003. Ideas?
Have an se crv honda the break didn't break when i was backing up so i took key out and than started the car again and all right till it happened to my husband Is this a problem with any one else we have 60000 miles now please write to me if you have with the solution hsmith7670@aol.com
I believe your analogy is flawed. I have not seen any evidence that the owner/driver was using the car in a way that it was not intended to be used. It would be interesting to see the statistics on these fires. How many were caused by Honda Service Techs. I am also sure that all the owners of these vehicles are not aware they could become crispy critters if some one makes a mistake on an oil change. Honda may have a stellar record the last few years. In my book they built crappy cars in 1978 and they are headed back in that direction. If MN had lemon laws back then I would have donated my Honda Accord to the cause. If these were GM cars Ralph Nader would already have a book written. Since my first new 1964 Land Cruiser, till now I have had more problems with Japanese cars by far than all the domestic cars I Have owned. I don't trust JD Powers or CR to tell the truth.
While skating on a frozen pond, a boy falls through a thin patch of ice. A man who sees this event jumps into the freezing water and manages to pull the boy to safety.
The man is a hero.
While skating on a frozen pond, a boy falls through a thin patch of ice. A man who sees this event jumps into the freezing water, goes into shock, and drowns himself.
The man is an idiot.
Let's not use the end results of this case with the CR-V to distort the issue. Any oil leak can result in a fire. An oil leak is among the most common reason for automotive fires.
The facility that performs the oil change is responsible for the work they do. It doesn't matter if that facility is a Honda dealer or a Jiffy Lube. The fact that mistakes with oil changes are common does not absolve these businesses of their responsibility.
I can understand why many would like to see Honda go above and beyond by installing a shield of some sort. But when it comes to engineering decisions of that nature, the NHTSA is the governing body. At this time (yes, things might change), they have ruled that changes are not necessary. In other words, there is no "defect" to be corrected. The risk has been assessed and determined to be insufficient to require action.
You're still stuck in 1978, it seems. Disco was hot then, as was Rod Stewart's music. Disco is now considered "classic" and Rod Stewart plays Vegas with the rest of the relics and has-beens.
I never indicated this was operator error - driving the vehicle isn't the cause of these fires (directly), it's the monkey changing the oil and not doing a good job cleaning up, or installing the filter wrong. It ain't the car's fault.
I'm sorry, but basing your import car attitude in a 1978 Honda and a 1964 Land Cruiser really doesn't make a wave in the pond when compared to the millions of imports sold that are consistently better than their domestic counterparts.
...on my girlfriend's "beater" 1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass sedan yesterday. The rather small filter is located in the front of the engine - a good distance from the exhaust manifold and nowhere near the catalytic converter.
I find it strange that a few CRVs have caught on fire due to oil spilled on the manifold. I have spilled oil on the manifold on my cars from time to time and it never resulted in a fire. You'd only have a peculiar smell emitted from the engine bay for a few miles. There wouldn't even be any visible smoke.
Interesting . . . you call the class action attorney "leaching attorney's" but then you credit them for the litigation that forced Ford and Firestone to fix the rollover problems.
I did not give the attorneys credit for anything. All they do is get people fired up to sue then take the bulk of the settlement. That in turn runs up my insurance premiums for healthcare & automobiles. If the courts would limit the percentage the attorneys take it would help to curb some of the frivolous lawsuits. I'm sure from the looks of that CR-V on fire Honda will be in court. Hopefully the victims get more than a pittance.
Lemko - Yeah, there could be another explanation. We don't know enough to be jumping to conclusions. There could be more to this, or maybe it's just dumb luck.
FWIW, there was a total of 27 incidents investigated. 9 vehicles were found to have stacked gaskets (double gaskets). Another 5 were found to have pinched gaskets. No explanation has been offered for the other 13 vehicles. It is assumed that those investigations were inconclusive.
"I'm sure from the looks of that CR-V on fire Honda will be in court. Hopefully the victims get more than a pittance."
Prior to the publishing of the NHTSA investigation one owner (Sabrina, who posts here), won a case against HMC in small claims court. Honda appealed.
Now that the NHTSA has published their findings, it is likely that Honda's appeal will be granted. Everything points to the oil change facilities being at fault, so it is likely that Honda will win.
So, yes, the victims should get what is due to them. And the compensation should come from the guilty party, which appears to be the oil changers, not Honda.
"But when it comes to engineering decisions of that nature, the NHTSA is the governing body. At this time (yes, things might change), they have ruled that changes are not necessary."
Yes, and I implicitly trust EVERY government agency... ROFL!!!!
I'd be very surprised if that ruling doesn't change. And even if it doesn't, that still doesn't excuse Honda from their obligation to their customers' safety and peace of mind. Lawyers help criminals hide behind loopholes and preposterously ill-conceived court rulings all the time and IMO, Honda is doing the very same thing.
I'm sorry, but basing your import car attitude in a 1978 Honda and a 1964 Land Cruiser really doesn't make a wave in the pond when compared to the millions of imports sold that are consistently better than their domestic counterparts. I believe it does. I can list off the 9 new Japanese vehicles I have bought. The last one was 1994 Toyota PU. Sadly it was no better quality than the 1964 Land Cruiser. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Japanese quality is a myth. My last 4 new Chevy trucks & a Suburban were nearly flawless. Proof enough for me that Domestic vehicles are in fact superior. I realize that bashing American Made is politically correct, especially in Hollywood. I don't go along with it.
"Sorry to burst your bubble, but Japanese quality is a myth. My last 4 new Chevy trucks & a Suburban were nearly flawless. Proof enough for me that Domestic vehicles are in fact superior."
Since we're relying on anecdotal evidence, my experiences (imports vs. domestic) are the precise opposite of yours. My imports have been as close to flawless as they come, while the domestics have ranged from barely adequate to embarrassingly bad. In my experience, the superiority overall of Japanese quality vs. domestics is anything BUT a myth.
You believe what you'd like, but trust me, you're not bursting anyone's bubble.
antedoctal, and represents a HUGE cross-section of vehicles....5,000 lemon law cases in the last 3 years, of which 4,198 are domestic vehicles - may of the others were German (especially VW). Japanese imports count for only 282 cases in 3.5 years.
"Sorry to burst your bubble, but Japanese quality is a myth"
There couldn't be a more incorrect statement.
"I realize that bashing American Made is politically correct, especially in Hollywood. I don't go along with it."
Me neither, in fact, I have two US flag tattoos - I own a domestic vehicle now, and I'm trading it for a Ford, then buying another Ford in a few months.
I really like Honda vehicles - when they make a Crew Cab 4x4 with a turbo diesel or a car like a Mustang Cobra, I'll look at it - until then, they don't have anything I want in a vehicle.
An example above compared lug nuts that were not tightened for wheels falling off, and brakes not bled properly for brake failure, to the engine fires.
Well, I think these are bad examples. There are 4 or 5 wheel lugs, so at least a little fault-tolerance is built-in. If one is lose I doubt the whole wheel will fall off.
With the brakes, aren't there two seperate lines, one each for a diagonally opposed pair of brakes? Again, if one system fails you have fault tolerance built-in.
I pointed out that Honda does not shirk responsibility in volutary and required recalls. They have recalled several vehicle for problems that THEY found that had not even happened in real world situations. In this case Honda is clearly not at fault. When the car is performing to spec and repaired correctly, there is no fire hazard. It takes outside influence to create the hazard.
A fault is a fault. I couldn’t call wheels flying off as bad examples simply because 4 or 5 or 6 lug nuts allow more room for error. In the end, it did happen, didn’t it?
I have another instance from an experience last year. I was going to take a road trip, and had tires changed at a Discount Tire Company store. The same afternoon, I start my journey and about 50 miles into it, going at about 70 mph, I felt some wobble in the steering wheel, and pulled over. One of the rear tires was deflated and smoke was coming out. After it cooled down, replaced the tire with the spare, and drove back to the store.
Discovery: The technician had put a wrong size tire (P215 instead of P195), causing loss of “grip” off the wheel. They replaced it, and I restarted my journey. On the way, I decided to check air pressure (again). Another revelation one of the front tires was also mounted incorrectly! Same error. I called the store back and they were closing but were going to wait for my car.
They were out of stock for the tire, and I didn’t want a “temporary” used tire installed. So I couldn’t start my journey until next day noon. And although I had “good tires” installed, the next 1100 miles (and back) I kept thinking about another tire blowing up. But then, on the bright side, I didn’t do overspeeding (much) and I was glad to be not driving an Exploder. :-)
I had a 1991 MR2 Turbo. It had 195/55/14's on the front and 205/60/14's on ther rear with staggered wheel width and offset to boot. Don't you know the NTW(NTB now) put a front tire on a rear wheel and mounted it to the front.
I noticed my car was driving funny and pulled over and noticed it. Not only was this a dangerous situation for driving, but they also could have wrecked my transaxle with two different sized tires on the rear. Imagine had my tranny locked up or overheated.
"In this case Honda is clearly not at fault. When the car is performing to spec and repaired correctly, there is no fire hazard. It takes outside influence to create the hazard."
And at the end of the day, this will make absolutely no difference, even assuming that it's true. With all of the uproar in the media about this issue, people will have the frequently posted picture of the CR-V in flames indelibly etched in their minds. What they'll remember is that Honda builds cars that burst into flames after oil changes, and all of the NHTSA stuff will be dismissed as the usual rhetoric... after all, we're all so used to getting incomplete, incorrect or just plain false information from government agencies that this NHTSA ruling will be considered to be just more of the same.
Honda is playing free and easy with their most valuable and important asset in this situation... their reputation for safety and quality. Honda absolutely needs to nip this in the bud with decisive action... it doesn't matter if a dealer mechanic, the kid at Quickie Lube or the Tooth Fairy is supposedly at fault. Because the public won't remember that... they'll just remember that Hondas start on fire and that the company didn't do their part to rectify the situation. Instead, they folded their arms, used the NHTSA ruling as an excuse to shirk their ultimate responsibility, and did nothing.
If they maintain this stance, I guarantee that it will come back to haunt them in a major way. I'd hate to see that happen, since Honda's been such a great influence on the industry in general, but that's how I see it.
"if they take a radical defensive posture, consumers will figure they're trying to hide something and shine it over..."
As far as I'm concerned, that's exactly what they're doing now... playing the big corporation, using "we don't care about the little guy" tactics such as hiding behind questionable NHTSA rulings and finger pointing. They're in complete denial about what they really have to do to satisfy their customers and save their reputation.
I'm not recommending a radical defensive posture, I'm recommending a strong proactive, pro customer approach, much like they've taken with the recent transmission issues. We can argue ad infinitum about who's fault it is, but the bottom line is that Honda needs to do major damage control, and they need to do it now.
Harm or no harm it was still an issue that points in a direction that isn’t comforting, Thankfully nobody has been injured in the fires either, and all I ended up with was a day of lost vacation time. But, the other incident I pointed out hit another vehicle and caused front-end damage to it. I don’t know about the occupants though. See, even if the lug nuts had more room for error (thanks to more “count”), the wheel still came off. Does it make it any less serious? Could it be a bad design (by the automaker)? Or could it be that a mechanic failed to bolt one or two or more of the lug nuts, and properly?
such as hiding behind questionable NHTSA rulings and finger pointing.
And I don’t understand finger pointing in this case. Would questioning the ruling of NHTSA be considered finger pointing? I think so. And who is questioning the NHTSA ruling as it stands now?
I couldn’t blame anybody without actually participating in the investigation. How could you? From PR perspective, what do you expect Honda to do? And I’ve still not heard, why no report of fires in 2002 models? Did anything change going from 2002 to 2003?
That said, Honda might eventually come up with a fix, not necessarily to fix a design flaw (nothing is proven at this point) but potentially to make it more fool proof. But then, like said earlier, it won’t matter they do it or not, negativity can never be ruled out making it a no-win situation.
"And who is questioning the NHTSA ruling as it stands now?"
Consumer Reports is already questioning it, so I'm not alone. And I'd be very surprised if other experts don't weigh in about how suspect this sounds.
This is just how I view it... I don't have to be a full participant to be able to form an opinion regarding the apparent credibility of their findings. And I predict that lots of other people will come to a similar conclusion. People form opinions without complete information all the time. Does that make it right? No, but that doesn't stop it from happening, either.
As for negativity, negativity that implies "there was a problem and they finessed their way out of fulfilling their responsibility" is a lot worse than the negativity of "there was a problem and they cared enough to act in their customers' best interests". The negativity already exists, compliments of the intense media coverage... Honda has the power to reduce the impact or even make it reflect well on them by taking the appropriate actions. Something that they're NOT doing now.
"it's our fault" and open themselves up to millions of dollars in damages because people can't change oil correctly?
If you were in an accident, and it wasn't your fault, would you just go ahead and tell the officer (and your insuarnce company) that it WAS your fault so the real "at fault" person wouldn't take the blame? That doesn't make any sense.
Just make the design more fault-tolerant with some sort of protective shield or a filter relocation kit, and make a retrofit kit available so current CR-V owners can rest easy.
That's proactive in 2 ways - it prevents future fires, and eases concerns of existing customers. Most of the others are beyond the first oil change anyway.
Those that don't care or don't think it's a significant threat don't have to do anything at all.
the lack of fault for a poor design. Gaskets can leak without the help of a technician. What are to look forward to with the 05 CR-V? Maybe changing the oil in a clean room and inspecting the gasket with a microscope. The real truth is both parties play a part in the incidents.
Comments
If human error is the cause of the fires, I don't think it's Honda's job to correct it. Like I said before, if Jiffy Lube can't guarantee they can correctly change the oil, they need to omit CRV's from the list of cars they service. That would omit "Jiffy Lube" error from the mix.
Like this one...
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/incidentresponse/weekly/may03/5-19/defaul- t.htm
"Forgotten oil cap sparks fiery incident on SR 16"
Maybe we ought to put a tether on the oil caps.
I'm sure there are cars that won't catch fire when the oil cap is left out too. I know the 1988 Celica engine won't because it happened to me. But there will be no fire if the oil cap is placed where it belongs. Same with the oil filter.
Did I read that right? I guess I did. Someone is suggesting that we should make products smart enough to keep stupid people from doing stupid things? Then, we can sue the companies because we're still stupid and we get ourselves hurt?
Do you REALLY need a warning label that tells you not to try to remove a fan belt from a running engine??
I'm sorry, but I'm a BIG fan of common sense - everyone else should be, too.
Yes, cars are inherently dangerous if they are maintained properly (such as tightening lug nuts), but there are some reasonable steps that can be taken to mitigate logically anticipated occurances.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Here's the problem with your statement. Let's say I take my Honda CR-V to Jiffy Lube for an oil change and they screw it up. The CR-V blows up killing me.
My wife and son would rather have me alive and well (I think?) than the money to be obtained from suing Jiffy Lube.
Get the point? Lawsuits aren't the answer for something like this. Proper design to prevent FORSEEABLE negligence from being life threatening is.
According to the report, NHTSA and American Honda Motor Co. agreed that oil from the filters most likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting.
How does this disprove my statement that TV reports were passing along NHTSA safety warnings about the CR-V blowing up?
If Jiffy lube can't guarantee the work they do then they should not work on this car. It is squarely on the back of the employee whether the fires occur. They either guarantee the work or risk a huge lawsuit from negligence.
I've already detailed my problems with the lawsuit answer.
If a do it youselfer doesn't do the job correctly, the blame is still the same. He didn't properly change the oil. Just as if in any other car the engine siezes from improper maintenance. It ain't Honda's fault.
WRONG. IT IS HONDA'S FAULT. Nobody else is making a car that blows up in your face after a bad oil change.
People shouldn't have to risk dying or getting severely burned due to a bad oil change.
I must say that if this were GM, Ford or Chrysler or even VW everyone would be saying that these companies are up to more of the same, building junk.
However since this is Honda its a mistake and thus can be overlooked and more interestingly it isn't even their fault. Of the millions of cars on the road and the many more oil changes all these cars have had in say just the last 5 years, how many botched oil changes do you think have been performed without the car catching on fire? There probably have been hundreds of thousands of botched oil changes by guys at oil change places all over the U.S and by Joe America who didn't know what he was doing, at least the first couple of times, but there hasn't been any widespread or even mention of something like this before. Wonder why? If various Honda's have the same powertrain etc. and only the CRV is affected then it would *seem* that something about the CRV is amiss. Could it be the placement of certain components due to the CRV being intended for light off-road duty? I don't know.
Do we know where the majority of these "bad" oil changes took place? Honda dealers or Jiffy, Oil-Experts, some local mom and pop??? The article at the autochannel.com says this happened after the first oil change which is almost always done by the dealer. If that is the case then it is surely a Honda fault. You can't brag about how good Japanese car ownership is based on great service and then disown the service department after they muck up.
What is Honda's current position on this?
Imagine if this was a GM car:
There would be calls for GM to close shop.
M
Ya think?
M
Interesting . . . you call the class action attorney "leaching attorney's" but then you credit them for the litigation that forced Ford and Firestone to fix the rollover problems.
Are the "leaching attorneys" to blame for Honda CR-Vs blowing up after an oil change?
Let's place blame where blame is due, in this case on Honda's engineers.
Come on, you can't blame the government.
Clean air is a necessity. 15 years ago in LA the air was horrendous. People had to stay indoors on bad smog days b/c the exhaust from cars was so bad.
Nobody else is having problems meeting emissions standards without torching the engine. Honda should be able to do it too.
In 1998, my father in law drove his overloaded 1992 GMC S-15 Extended Cab 4x4, towing a 25 ft Terry trailer (loaded), from Libby, MT on his way home to Medford, OR. When going over Pendleton Pass (8400 ft) in Eastern Oregon, the transmission overheated, puking trans fluid out through the fill tube, spilling out into the engine compartment, down the firewall, and onto the exhaust. The fluid hit the cats, of course, and the truck caught fire. He and my mother in law noticed the smoke and pulled over right away - by the time they got out of the truck, the fire was started well, and all they could do is watch and get the dogs out of the back of the truck. It burnt to the ground.
Now - is this GM's fault? Should we go on a witch hunt? NO. Why? because my father in law exceeded the safe towing limits on the truck by several thousand pounds, overworking the truck, especially when going over the pass. Additionally, he didn't install an aftermarket transmission cooler. His fault. Period. Insurance totaled the truck, of course, and never even considered looking at the manufacturer.
Now - let me tell you something about Honda that most of you have no way of knowing. Do you know why I've only seen 12 Honda lemon law cases in 3.5 years? Is it because Hondas don't have problems? Yes, partly. The primary reason is that Honda will step up and buy someone out of a car instead of making the consumer deal with the hassle and headache of 2 years worth of litigation, like just about every other manufacturer in the nation, Toyota included.
My point? People make mistakes. Bad things happen.
One more question, first a scenario - in 1968, when I was 4, my mom was making me some toast in our kitchen, using a GE toaster. She left the room for a moment, and I was an impatient little kid, so I thought I'd get the toast out of the toaster sooner. I pulled a chair over to the counter, took a table knife, and inserted it in the toaster to attempt in prying the toast out. It shocked the heck out of me and actually knocked me out of the chair and onto the floor.
Whose fault is that? GE? Nope. My mom's, for leaving a dumb little kid alone with an active electrical device, a chair, and a knife, and mine, to doing the act. No one got sued, and I wasn't spanked since she figured I'd had enough trouble already.
Let me say, for the record, that I know McDonald's fries are not "low carb" or "low fat", or "low calorie". The problem is, I like Mickey D's fries - they taste great - in my opinion, they're the best fast food fries out there. I also know that if I had 6 large orders of fries a day, along with the burgers and cokes (not diet), I'd blow up like a helium balloon. It takes common sense, just a little bit of education, and the assumption of self-responsibility to counter my desire to eat 6 orders of fries per day - that, and that nasty, greasy, queasy feeling I'd have all the time...
Enjoy your day, and lighten up, and get off the "I'm suing everyone who doesn't protect me from my own stupidity" bandwagon.
It may be a pet phrase of yours, but please stop using the inflammatory (no pun intended) term of "blowing up" when describing this issue. I don't believe that explosions are part of the problem here. While catching fire is undeniably a serious issue, actually "blowing up" is clearly even worse.
I'm a big Honda fan, love my Accord, and I've frequently gone to the mat for them when I thought someone was criticizing them unfairly. But even I have to agree that Honda's current stance on the CR-V issue is unacceptable. All of this debate about whose fault it is is meaningless. Honda still has an obligation to address the safety and peace of mind of their customers, and sending better instructions to the dealers and to oil change franchises falls WAY short of fulfilling that obligation. When it comes to these safety issues, the buck stops with Honda. Only they are in the position to eliminate, once and for all, the possibility of such major consequences for such a minor error. A minor oil leak due to a minor oversight should NOT have the potential of resulting in an engine fire. I can't believe that we're even discussing this as if it were an acceptable situation.
While I don't own a CR-V, I'm just trying to imagine having the oil changed and then driving home. What are you supposed to do, hold your breath while you wait to see any smoke or flames? I don't think so. There are two potentially affected CR-Vs in my family (a cousin and a brother-in-law), and the latter was following my advice when he got his CR-V.
The transmission recall is a pretty small concern for me, since the outcome for most owners should be a visit to a dealership for a relatively minor modification. More serious complications are limited to vehicles with relatively high mileage that were driven under very specific conditions. And yes, Honda should receive accolades for being proactive about the transmission issue. Nobody is excusing the fact that the issue exists in the first place, but since it does, a proactive stance that should prevent actual problems for the majority of owners is about the best they can do under the circumstances.
In the face of that reaction to a problem, Honda's stance on the CR-V situation is baffling. Compared to the transmission issue, the consequences are far more serious and it has the potential for affecting thousands of CR-V owners immediately. But this time, Honda goes on the defensive and starts pointing fingers to blame others, rather than grabbing the bull by the horns as they did with the transmission situation. IMO, serious damage control is required here, for the sake of Honda's reputation, but more importantly for the safety and peace of mind of their customers. If I were them, I'd get some kind of shield designed and out there ASAP and then do the recall, offering a free oil and filter change as part of the service.
C'mon, Honda execs, get your heads out of the sand and do what you need to do for everyone's sake.
IMO, this is not a defective design, just a poor one, and Honda should make a change in response (move the filter, put on a heat shield, or something). Even if they don't think there is "really" a problem, but just to deal the bad PR.
Of course parts can fail, and in the example Drift used (the tranny), overloading or abusing a vehicle can certainly lead to a failure with bad results, but I don't think that not getting a perfect seal on an oil filter is in the same catagory of grossly exceeding the towing capacity of your truck.
And, unlike overlodaing the car or running out of gas, or even keeping proper tire inflation pressure (ala the Explorer), the oil filter isn't really in the control of the owner (how many people can even see the damned thing on the back of a transverse engine)?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Last week, I noticed a plume of smoke (later turned out to be dust) from the other side of the freeway. And suddenly I noticed a wheel traveling perpendicular to the freeway (on my side of the traffic). It hit a Grand Cherokee and bounced off it. Fortunately nothing much happened with the only victim being the Jeep (hopefully everybody inside it was alright).
Now, the wheel flew off, probably due to improper install. Should we blame Jeep for it? As you say, this problem could have been negated by welding the wheel instead of having the mechanic to deal with lug nuts. Is that right?
The man is a hero.
While skating on a frozen pond, a boy falls through a thin patch of ice. A man who sees this event jumps into the freezing water, goes into shock, and drowns himself.
The man is an idiot.
Let's not use the end results of this case with the CR-V to distort the issue. Any oil leak can result in a fire. An oil leak is among the most common reason for automotive fires.
The facility that performs the oil change is responsible for the work they do. It doesn't matter if that facility is a Honda dealer or a Jiffy Lube. The fact that mistakes with oil changes are common does not absolve these businesses of their responsibility.
I can understand why many would like to see Honda go above and beyond by installing a shield of some sort. But when it comes to engineering decisions of that nature, the NHTSA is the governing body. At this time (yes, things might change), they have ruled that changes are not necessary. In other words, there is no "defect" to be corrected. The risk has been assessed and determined to be insufficient to require action.
I never indicated this was operator error - driving the vehicle isn't the cause of these fires (directly), it's the monkey changing the oil and not doing a good job cleaning up, or installing the filter wrong. It ain't the car's fault.
I'm sorry, but basing your import car attitude in a 1978 Honda and a 1964 Land Cruiser really doesn't make a wave in the pond when compared to the millions of imports sold that are consistently better than their domestic counterparts.
I find it strange that a few CRVs have caught on fire due to oil spilled on the manifold. I have spilled oil on the manifold on my cars from time to time and it never resulted in a fire. You'd only have a peculiar smell emitted from the engine bay for a few miles. There wouldn't even be any visible smoke.
I edited to add a second last sentence. I've gotta be faster on the keyboard.
I did not give the attorneys credit for anything. All they do is get people fired up to sue then take the bulk of the settlement. That in turn runs up my insurance premiums for healthcare & automobiles. If the courts would limit the percentage the attorneys take it would help to curb some of the frivolous lawsuits. I'm sure from the looks of that CR-V on fire Honda will be in court. Hopefully the victims get more than a pittance.
FWIW, there was a total of 27 incidents investigated. 9 vehicles were found to have stacked gaskets (double gaskets). Another 5 were found to have pinched gaskets. No explanation has been offered for the other 13 vehicles. It is assumed that those investigations were inconclusive.
Prior to the publishing of the NHTSA investigation one owner (Sabrina, who posts here), won a case against HMC in small claims court. Honda appealed.
Now that the NHTSA has published their findings, it is likely that Honda's appeal will be granted. Everything points to the oil change facilities being at fault, so it is likely that Honda will win.
So, yes, the victims should get what is due to them. And the compensation should come from the guilty party, which appears to be the oil changers, not Honda.
Yes, and I implicitly trust EVERY government agency... ROFL!!!!
I'd be very surprised if that ruling doesn't change. And even if it doesn't, that still doesn't excuse Honda from their obligation to their customers' safety and peace of mind. Lawyers help criminals hide behind loopholes and preposterously ill-conceived court rulings all the time and IMO, Honda is doing the very same thing.
I believe it does. I can list off the 9 new Japanese vehicles I have bought. The last one was 1994 Toyota PU. Sadly it was no better quality than the 1964 Land Cruiser. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Japanese quality is a myth. My last 4 new Chevy trucks & a Suburban were nearly flawless. Proof enough for me that Domestic vehicles are in fact superior. I realize that bashing American Made is politically correct, especially in Hollywood. I don't go along with it.
Since we're relying on anecdotal evidence, my experiences (imports vs. domestic) are the precise opposite of yours. My imports have been as close to flawless as they come, while the domestics have ranged from barely adequate to embarrassingly bad. In my experience, the superiority overall of Japanese quality vs. domestics is anything BUT a myth.
You believe what you'd like, but trust me, you're not bursting anyone's bubble.
"Sorry to burst your bubble, but Japanese quality is a myth"
There couldn't be a more incorrect statement.
"I realize that bashing American Made is politically correct, especially in Hollywood. I don't go along with it."
Me neither, in fact, I have two US flag tattoos - I own a domestic vehicle now, and I'm trading it for a Ford, then buying another Ford in a few months.
I really like Honda vehicles - when they make a Crew Cab 4x4 with a turbo diesel or a car like a Mustang Cobra, I'll look at it - until then, they don't have anything I want in a vehicle.
Well, I think these are bad examples. There are 4 or 5 wheel lugs, so at least a little fault-tolerance is built-in. If one is lose I doubt the whole wheel will fall off.
With the brakes, aren't there two seperate lines, one each for a diagonally opposed pair of brakes? Again, if one system fails you have fault tolerance built-in.
Just thought those were bad examples.
-juice
I pointed out that Honda does not shirk responsibility in volutary and required recalls. They have recalled several vehicle for problems that THEY found that had not even happened in real world situations. In this case Honda is clearly not at fault. When the car is performing to spec and repaired correctly, there is no fire hazard. It takes outside influence to create the hazard.
I have another instance from an experience last year. I was going to take a road trip, and had tires changed at a Discount Tire Company store. The same afternoon, I start my journey and about 50 miles into it, going at about 70 mph, I felt some wobble in the steering wheel, and pulled over. One of the rear tires was deflated and smoke was coming out. After it cooled down, replaced the tire with the spare, and drove back to the store.
Discovery: The technician had put a wrong size tire (P215 instead of P195), causing loss of “grip” off the wheel. They replaced it, and I restarted my journey. On the way, I decided to check air pressure (again). Another revelation one of the front tires was also mounted incorrectly! Same error. I called the store back and they were closing but were going to wait for my car.
They were out of stock for the tire, and I didn’t want a “temporary” used tire installed. So I couldn’t start my journey until next day noon. And although I had “good tires” installed, the next 1100 miles (and back) I kept thinking about another tire blowing up. But then, on the bright side, I didn’t do overspeeding (much) and I was glad to be not driving an Exploder. :-)
I noticed my car was driving funny and pulled over and noticed it. Not only was this a dangerous situation for driving, but they also could have wrecked my transaxle with two different sized tires on the rear. Imagine had my tranny locked up or overheated.
And at the end of the day, this will make absolutely no difference, even assuming that it's true. With all of the uproar in the media about this issue, people will have the frequently posted picture of the CR-V in flames indelibly etched in their minds. What they'll remember is that Honda builds cars that burst into flames after oil changes, and all of the NHTSA stuff will be dismissed as the usual rhetoric... after all, we're all so used to getting incomplete, incorrect or just plain false information from government agencies that this NHTSA ruling will be considered to be just more of the same.
Honda is playing free and easy with their most valuable and important asset in this situation... their reputation for safety and quality. Honda absolutely needs to nip this in the bud with decisive action... it doesn't matter if a dealer mechanic, the kid at Quickie Lube or the Tooth Fairy is supposedly at fault. Because the public won't remember that... they'll just remember that Hondas start on fire and that the company didn't do their part to rectify the situation. Instead, they folded their arms, used the NHTSA ruling as an excuse to shirk their ultimate responsibility, and did nothing.
If they maintain this stance, I guarantee that it will come back to haunt them in a major way. I'd hate to see that happen, since Honda's been such a great influence on the industry in general, but that's how I see it.
It's a no win situation, in my opinion.
As far as I'm concerned, that's exactly what they're doing now... playing the big corporation, using "we don't care about the little guy" tactics such as hiding behind questionable NHTSA rulings and finger pointing. They're in complete denial about what they really have to do to satisfy their customers and save their reputation.
I'm not recommending a radical defensive posture, I'm recommending a strong proactive, pro customer approach, much like they've taken with the recent transmission issues. We can argue ad infinitum about who's fault it is, but the bottom line is that Honda needs to do major damage control, and they need to do it now.
In the examples above, no harm done, owners had some warning and could pull over.
-juice
We might never know!
And I don’t understand finger pointing in this case. Would questioning the ruling of NHTSA be considered finger pointing? I think so. And who is questioning the NHTSA ruling as it stands now?
I couldn’t blame anybody without actually participating in the investigation. How could you? From PR perspective, what do you expect Honda to do? And I’ve still not heard, why no report of fires in 2002 models? Did anything change going from 2002 to 2003?
That said, Honda might eventually come up with a fix, not necessarily to fix a design flaw (nothing is proven at this point) but potentially to make it more fool proof. But then, like said earlier, it won’t matter they do it or not, negativity can never be ruled out making it a no-win situation.
Consumer Reports is already questioning it, so I'm not alone. And I'd be very surprised if other experts don't weigh in about how suspect this sounds.
This is just how I view it... I don't have to be a full participant to be able to form an opinion regarding the apparent credibility of their findings. And I predict that lots of other people will come to a similar conclusion. People form opinions without complete information all the time. Does that make it right? No, but that doesn't stop it from happening, either.
As for negativity, negativity that implies "there was a problem and they finessed their way out of fulfilling their responsibility" is a lot worse than the negativity of "there was a problem and they cared enough to act in their customers' best interests". The negativity already exists, compliments of the intense media coverage... Honda has the power to reduce the impact or even make it reflect well on them by taking the appropriate actions. Something that they're NOT doing now.
-juice
If you were in an accident, and it wasn't your fault, would you just go ahead and tell the officer (and your insuarnce company) that it WAS your fault so the real "at fault" person wouldn't take the blame? That doesn't make any sense.
If it's against the car manufacturer people applaud the decision but when it go's the other way, their decisions get questioned.
I don't understand that mentality.
That's proactive in 2 ways - it prevents future fires, and eases concerns of existing customers. Most of the others are beyond the first oil change anyway.
Those that don't care or don't think it's a significant threat don't have to do anything at all.
-juice