"Is the oil filter above or near the exhaust manifold?"
I don't see how it could be above the exhaust manifold since the exhaust manifold comes off the head and the oil filter is usually attached to the block. Of course, the head is ALWAYS above the block in an inline engine.
"If so I call this at least partially a Honda design flaw, accompanied by service people error."
Hondas I4s have always had the oil filter near an exhaust pipe, but not the exhaust manifold. Like I said before, Honda I4s used to have the exhaust in front that would wrap around underneath the oil pan. Most of those Honda oil filters were directly above the exhaust pipe that went underneath the oil pan and oil drains all over the exhaust when you change oil filters. It has never been a problem, besides the car being a little stinky after oil changes.
"A filter gasket can occasionally get stuck to the machined engine block surface which if not noticed will just result in rapidly forming a puddle of oil on the ground on most vehicles."
Most vehicles? This can happen to ALL vehicles with a spin on oil filter.
Reread my post. I said it will "just" result in rapidly forming a puddle on the ground on most vehicles. By "just" I was implying a puddle would form without a fire on most vehicles.
True all vehicles will form a puddle, but it is just a puddle and not a fire. Of course, if the oil ignites, you wouldn't get a puddle but something much worse, like a flaming CRV.
that the flash point of motor oil is pretty high (unless there's gas in it). You can put out a cigarette in oil....so whatever the oil is coming in contact with on these new CR-Vs is REALLY hot.
that spit out transmission fluid from the top of the transmission fill tube and the fluid caught fire after hitting the cat. Same thing could happen with oil.
I thought heat shields were used to help prevent brush fires. My 86' Mazda had heat shields on the exhaust.
I'll bet one of the reasons why Honda has the exhaust coming off the back of the engine now is because it allows for the catalyst to be placed closer to the exhaust manifold, allowing it to heat up quicker...for emissions.
Mechanically (from engine perspective), there are a lot of vehicles from Honda (around the world) that share it with CR-V (except auto transmission, I believe which is still 4-sp auto in CR-V/Element versus 5-sp auto or CVT in other vehicles, including American Accord, Japanese Odyssey, Japanese/Euro Accord/Acura TSX).
From an engine perspective, yeah, I know that. I'm talking about the whole vehicle.
When you crawl underneath a CR-V and an Element, are they the same? Yeah, the Accord, TSX, etc. etc. might have the same engine, but I guarantee that their exhausts aren't set up exactly the same way as the CR-V. Which is why I'm wondering about the Element. I was under the impression that they were pretty much identical underneath the skin.
Honda says this is the technicians' faults and that it is going to send out a bulletin to dealers and quicky lubes. Presumably, the bulletin is going to tell them to be careful with the oil filter change. Make sure the old gasket comes off, make sure the baseplate is cleaned, make sure to lube the new gasket, etc. etc. Basically the same things you'd want to do when changing the oil on ANY car....only on the CR-V, a goofed oil change means you'll need to call 911 before you call the dealer, so be EXTRA careful. Uh huh. I hope that Jiffy Lube dude got a full nights sleep, otherwise it's fire marshall Bill time.
It's on my local paper's webpage now (Minneapolis Star Tribune).
From the article:
"Honda said a design flaw is not to blame, but it's still studying the cause of the fires."
Amazing. They are still studying the cause of the fires, but they KNOW, the just KNOW, that it's not a design flaw.
Amazing. They are still studying the cause of the fires, but they KNOW, the just KNOW, that it's not a design flaw.
That's not Honda being obtuse. This is Honda being proactive, not reactive, in denying liability before the class-action and lemon law lawyers get to them.
I for one am not surprised that Honda is having more problems recently. Older Civics and Accords used to be bulletproof. I have seen a lot of newer Accords/Civics that have had rattles and squeaks. Now that is not a serious problem, but I think it's an indication that build quality is slipping as Honda tries to squeeze more profits due to greater competitive pressures.
They make some of the safest cars when compared to others in like classes.
They make the cleanest burning engines.
And they sell them at very reasonable prices.
It's quite obtuse to just say "Honda is cost cutting" when there are so many ways they are trying to improve the products they sell. There's much more evidence out there to show improvements in efficiency and safety than there is that quality is dropping.
Again 22 out of 140,000 hardly points to a design flaw. With the exhaust on the back of the engine there is less airflow and more heat. IF and I do mean IF any oil is getting to the catalytic converter, it will catch fire. Maybe they should install a guard to protect from messy oil change technicians. But if the fires are caused by inadequate oil change clean up or procedure, it's hardly the fault of Honda that the cars are catching fire.
"Again 22 out of 140,000 hardly points to a design flaw."
Since they're still pretty new, I'm going to going to go out on a limb and suggest that the 27 *reported* 2003 and 2004 CR-Vs that have caught fire is the number of CR-Vs where someone has screwed up the oil change....so far.
"But if the fires are caused by inadequate oil change clean up or procedure, it's hardly the fault of Honda that the cars are catching fire."
So who's fault was it when Pintos burst into flames? The person who rear ended the Pinto, or the company that designed a car that would burst into flames easily when rear ended?
Oil changes are the most routine maintenance that you do on a car and people WILL screw them up, whether it be the dealer, a quicky lube, or a do-it-yourselfer.
If it is due to technician error, I ASSURE you, there will be more CR-V fires. Guaranteed.
I dunno, IMO, a bad oil change shouldn't mean the car goes up in flames.
The Pinto rear end SHOULD have been designed for rear end crashes.
If oil is spilled during an oil change it SHOULD be cleaned up. IF it's not, it's the fault of the oil change facility. The engine has an oil pan for oil, it doesn't belong on the exhaust system.
I guess the next step is to sue carmakers for not including side air bags in fatal t-bone accidents. Since they did know that they would go a long way in preventing deaths in such cases.
Oh wait...I guess Honda isn't being PROACTIVE in including them in all cars next year. No wait..that's cost cutting?!?!.
The bottom line is that people make mistakes. Oil changes are routine. Should a botched oil change result in catastrophy? Yeah, if you screw up any other car, the engine might seize, but on the CR-V, the whole car goes up in flames? And that's OK? I know if this were any other company, you'd be making the same argument that I am.
According to what I've read, the cause isn't oil spilled during the oil change that wasn't wiped up. If that were the case, I would've burnt down a few cars too when I used to change oil.
The cause is the technician doing a "double gasket" and oil hitting something REALLY hot, like the catalyst. Hey, I have an idea, lets put the oil filter near the catalyst. Better yet, lets put the fuel filter there too. If someone screws up the fuel filter, it ain't our fault!
It is more likely to happen after the first oil change, because they use gorillas at the factory to put on oil filters and the gaskets tend to stick more...but it can happen any time. Since it's caused by oil spray, this could happen with a faulty oil filter, an oil filter that isn't tight enough or too tight, or a dirty baseplate.
"The cause is the technician doing a "double gasket" and oil hitting something REALLY hot, like the catalyst. Hey, I have an idea, lets put the oil filter near the catalyst. Better yet, lets put the fuel filter there too. If someone screws up the fuel filter, it ain't our fault!"
It's not. Just as if they don't torque the lugs down and a wheel flies off. Or if they don't tighten the brake bleeder valve and you lose your brakes. Those accidents would have even more dire and unavoidable consequences.
As NHTSA rightly determined, the design is fine. If the filter is installed as DESIGNEd, there would be no fire. BUT if the tech makes a mistake and does it incorrectly, there will be a fire.
I guess we should blame GOD when a doctor leave a piece of gauze in a body during surgery. I mean GOD should have made it easier.
If oil is spilled during an oil change it SHOULD be cleaned up. IF it's not, it's the fault of the oil change facility. The engine has an oil pan for oil, it doesn't belong on the exhaust system.
Come on, you have to design the oil change system so that the car doesn't become a torch after a common mistake.
Oh wait...I guess Honda isn't being PROACTIVE in including them in all cars next year. No wait..that's cost cutting?!?!.
It's a good move by Honda, but I actually think it'll save them money in the long run (due to no lawsuits for failing to put in a necessary safety feature), plus it's good marketing so Honda's getting a lot of benefits for doing this, which is fine by me.
"Just as if they don't torque the lugs down and a wheel flies off. Or if they don't tighten the brake bleeder valve and you lose your brakes. Those accidents would have even more dire and unavoidable consequences."
Those things could happen to any car. The CR-V is unique in that it will start on fire if the oil change is screwed up. Other cars won't start on fire if the oil change is screwed up. Those other cars weren't designed in such a way where there is zero room for error with regards to the oil filter. Honda says "technician error", I say design flaw, because Honda will never be able to eliminate technican error. If the CR-V is the only vehicle with this unique oil filter location that results in an inferno because of a mistake, how could it not be a design flaw?
"Come on, you have to design the oil change system so that the car doesn't become a torch after a common mistake."
Obviously not, according to NHTSA. A mistake is a mistake. The consequences may be more dire here, but it's still a mistake. If an oil change facility doesn't want the liability, they have the right to refuse sevice to CR-V's. Otherwise they should do the job correctly. A design flaw wuold be if the cars were burning to the ground without outside assistance. Then I would be concerned. But checking the oil filter shouldn't be a big deal.
Like putting regular gas in a diesel. That happens. No fire but those engines are EXPENSIVE.
I agree it is a design failure. I cannot tell you all the times I left after an oil change and smelled the oil on the manifold spilled by the mechanic. I never had a car catch on fire because of a sloppy oil change. Getting back to Honda's run. I am surprised they have lasted this long. I bought a new 1978 Accord and it was nothing but trouble from the time I drove it off the lot till I traded it in on a Ford truck. I thought they were dead back then and they are still putting out poorly designed vehicles. I would never own another one. I came close a couple times to buying an Acura. I just could not forget all the hassles Honda put me through.
(Sorry for the pun). I totally agree a 78 Honda was a piece. But my 89 was an amazingly tough little car. I think for what they purport to be, they deliver. I'm surprised they're having the trouble they are now.
"I thought they were dead back then and they are still putting out poorly designed vehicles."
Well, a couple of "high profile" recalls don't change the fact that the major organizations that rate vehicle quality (JD Power and CR) consistently rate Honda at or near the top of all automakers in their class. The issue with the 6th gen Accord transmission hasn't changed that, and I doubt that these will either. A couple of design defects are hardly enough to brand all Hondas as "poorly designed vehicles".
The main reason that these 2 defects are so newsworthy is that Honda is NOT known for making poorly designed vehicles, so the defects are uncharacteristic of them. At any rate, a lot can change in a quarter century, and a lot HAS changed.
I will agree, though, that if this streak of recalls/design issues continues, their reputation may be at stake.
I am sure they are building very good cars now. They would not sell as many as they do if they were still poorly designed. I just have a hard time letting go. My experience with Japanese cars in general has been poor. I have bought 9 new Japanese vehicles since 1964 and the only one that was great, was my 1970 Datsun PU. The rest I was happy to see go.
My wife has a 1990 Lexus LS400 with 79K miles. It is a nice car for sure. Not worth anything because of age. So we keep driving it and save the money we would spend on a new car. It still gets 19/27 mpg consistently. Not bad for a big heavy car with a V8.
I bought it wholesale 3 years ago for $10K. It's still worth at least $8k according to e-bay. That's not bad. I love that car. It's the anniv. edition.
The only thing wrong with my wife's LS400 is the gas gauge and automatic rearview mirror. We just reset the trip odometer and fill up every 200 miles. We find that better than $1200 to have the gauge fixed. We could get $5k for it but would have to add $50k and not have much more of a vehicle. And the new ones are not as good looking as the older LS400's.
I have noticed that it costs more to repair a Lexus or Infiniti than other cars, an issue I have a little trouble with because after all, they are Toyotas and Nissans..... But my Infiniti, which has the Maxima engine in it, is a fortune to fix, whereas a Nissan isn't so much. And frankly, my Fords are even less to fix, and don't require much, if any more fixing.
I know my LS was $53k when new. And I had a GS300 that was in the mid-40's. I wouldn't expect it to be a cheap fix. Whereas my Honda Civic was $15K. I wouldn't expect it to cost as much to fix since people who buy those cars wouldn't be able to afford them. Why not buy one of those Ford GT's and see how much repairs on it will be.
I use the Ford term generically, and perhaps I shouldn't have. What I meant to say, was my Lincolns aren't as much more to repair as my Fords are, but my Infiniti is much more to repair than my Nissans were. I assume the same about Lexus, based on the prices I've seen here for some repairs. I found my Honda Civic very reliable, probably the best long term car I have ever had, but when I did need a repair, it wasn't cheap.
Anyway, I'm mostly talking out of my butt on this, and it's not on topic. Sorry.
How so? According to all the TV news reports I've been watching, NHTSA is warning Honda CR-V owners to be careful after oil changes. Sounds like the NHTSA is concerned to me.
A mistake is a mistake. The consequences may be more dire here, but it's still a mistake.
Give me a break. Everyone makes mistakes, including Honda, which is something you seem loath to admit.
It's not that difficult to spill oil on the manifold. With all the Honda CR-Vs out there, and with the number of oil changes they'll go through, it is statistically 100% certain that someone's going to screw up an oil change.
Should the driver of the CR-V be burned alive for that mistake?
Stop making excuses for Honda and wake up to the fact that they screwed up this design.
I'm not saying Honda is a bad company. Honda is still a great company, but they make mistakes.
If an oil change facility doesn't want the liability, they have the right to refuse sevice to CR-V's. Otherwise they should do the job correctly.
Your suggestion that the Jiffy Lubes just turn away CR-Vs and let their owners change their own oil is absolutely ridiculous. How many people actually want to change their own oil? Have you? Should Honda CR-V owners NOT have the option of using a Jiffy Lube.
Everyone loves to bash the Jiffy Lubes, but I'd bet that the Jiffy Lube guy will still make fewer mistakes in changing the CR-Vs oil than your average CR-V owner.
So your suggestion will lead to more CR-Vs being burned up, not less.
A design flaw wuold be if the cars were burning to the ground without outside assistance. Then I would be concerned. But checking the oil filter shouldn't be a big deal.
Again, sometimes people will forget to check. Have you never made a stupid mistake in your life? A car burning to the ground b/c someone forgot to check the oil filter is a BIG BIG deal, don't kid yourself.
Sounds like negligence to me. If your job is to check such things is to do so and you don't, you should get sued. At best you could toast an engine. At worst you could toast a person. Either case it was YOUR negligence that caused the damage.
But let's look at others any way just for giggles.
"How so? According to all the TV news reports I've been watching, NHTSA is warning Honda CR-V owners to be careful after oil changes. Sounds like the NHTSA is concerned to me." http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/07/09/203061.html According to the report, NHTSA and American Honda Motor Co. agreed that oil from the filters most likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting. Looks like NHTSA agreed with Honda.
"Your suggestion that the Jiffy Lubes just turn away CR-Vs and let their owners change their own oil is absolutely ridiculous. How many people actually want to change their own oil? Have you? Should Honda CR-V owners NOT have the option of using a Jiffy Lube."
If Jiffy lube can't guarantee the work they do then they should not work on this car. It is squarely on the back of the employee whether the fires occur. They either guarantee the work or risk a huge lawsuit from negligence.
If a do it youselfer doesn't do the job correctly, the blame is still the same. He didn't properly change the oil. Just as if in any other car the engine siezes from improper maintenance. It ain't Honda's fault.
If in fact the fires are started by an oil leak then there is added risk by design. Not all leaks are caused by something as obvious as leaving an old gasket in place. Any foreign object between gasket and seat can result in a leak. For example metal shavings in old oil. How many people that have changed their oil have had old oil run onto the filter seat. If there is a large enough metal shaving between gasket and seat then the seal can be compromised when the new filter is spun on. The bottom line no matter what causes the leak the design could cause a fire.
by a technician or individual, such as leaving the old filter's gasket in place, or having a metal shaving on the mating surface, or not wiping the surface clean (one of this firt things I learned when I was 8 years old and did my first oil change) "added risk by design"?
Yeah, that's what this country needs - more litigation and legislation to help protect us from our own stupidity...
Why is it Honda is not responsible for the design of the auto? Why should Honda receive accolades for being proactive about faulty transmissions? Issues like these doomed the American car manufactures. If Honda wants to keep their run then we have to do our part as consumers by holding them accountable for their mistakes. I for one have never had problems changing my own oil, but we are not the ones who sit in our car wondering if Jiffy lube makes a mistake that couples with poor design and starts a fire. It almost seems like denial from reading the post. We have to remember we are just one generation of car buyers, is the next generation going to accept these design errors? Are the JD Powers reports accurate when the consumer is willing to accept these problems? We are not doing Honda a great service here.
I'm curious. Has Honda corrected this potential problem or are they waiting for a "class action lawsuit"? Such as the Explorer/Firestone mess. As long as we have an endless supply of leaching attorney's in this country, it would behoove Honda to take steps to prevent any possible hazard in their vehicles. We have a legal system that blamed McDonald's because their coffee was hot and some [non-permissible content removed] spilled it on herself. Getting burnt up in a car would be a heyday for guys like John Edwards.
for NEEDING to be proactive about the transmission issues, but I applaud them for being the only manufacturer in the US that is proactive at all - most (the rest) are simply reactionary, and only so when a consumer screams loud enough and/or gets an attorney.
"We are not doing Honda a great service here."
I'm not doing Honda any form of service. I'm not affiliated with the company, and I'm not an owner.
I just find it funny that with our ridiculous standard in our country for acceptance of responsibility, we run off screaming at Honda because 27 idiots don't know how to change oil properly. And that lady didn't know the coffee was hot, and the 400 lb guy didn't know that 3 Supersized Value Meals a day woulod make him fat.
So, I take it, Honda isn't even working on a redesign for future productions yet? You know, the Japanese manufacturers are famous for living in denial about these things....they really don't like to believe they have a problem, or they can't believe they have a problem.
about lawyers and the state they have our country in Drift. But here is why I think Honda has a design problem. These CR-Vs are new and the ones with problems seem to have low mileage. Early in a cars life there is more metal contamination in the oil due to break in. When the oil is changed it is next to impossible to keep some of the old oil from seeping onto the filter seat. You could let the car sit for a couple of hours to ensure that gravity drains the old oil out completely, but this rarely happens. In almost all cases some old oil will seep onto the seat as you spin the new filter on. If the seepage does not have a large shaving in it your ok, but if it does than you could scar the new filter gasket and cause a leak. This is magnified by quick oil change places as they drain and rock on as fast as they can. I would almost bet the filters that were involved in the fire, that were not double gasket will show gasket scars.
very funny that we're talking about Japanese manufacturers here - not only are the domestics and denial for problems in general, in court, they fight much harder then Honda, Toyota, and Nissan.
Let's talk about denial. DCC acts like they've never had a transmission problem. Same with Ford and the Taurus and Windstar. GM acts like not every one of their heater fan blower motor resistors fail, although they do. I see 80 GM cases a month, mostly for water leaks, major electrical problems, and transmission failures.
Ask yourself - which manufacturers are in denial for these problems? These are the same problems that GM, Ford and DCC have had for 25 years.
I don't think all lawyers are bad, just the ones that skirt on the fringe of poor ethics. I think you are correct all car manufactures have cover ups and poor recall habits in there history, we are just not used to it from Honda.
"How is incompetence by a technician or individual, such as leaving the old filter's gasket in place, or having a metal shaving on the mating surface, or not wiping the surface clean (one of this firt things I learned when I was 8 years old and did my first oil change) "added risk by design"?"
Here's how:
Honda *knows* there will be a certain # of vehicles where the oil filter's seal will fail for WHATEVER reason, including faulty oil filters or incompetence. It's a routine proceedure.
Why not put the oil filter somewhere where it won't set the car on fire if the seal fails?
This is why you will NEVER see a fuel filter near the catalytic converter. That would be an explosive situation if anything ever happened to the filter. At least they know that much.
I'm sure you are right about all those problems with the domestic automakers. Where the courts and litigation come into play is when someone DIES or is maimed. Then it is always the manufacturers fault. I'm still upset with Nader over his erroneous treatment of the Corvair. It was driving error not design error that caused the accidents. If a company knows they have a potentially dangerous situation with a device they are selling, they better fix it or some hotshot attorney will nail them. No matter how big they are, or who's fault it is.
Comments
I don't see how it could be above the exhaust manifold since the exhaust manifold comes off the head and the oil filter is usually attached to the block. Of course, the head is ALWAYS above the block in an inline engine.
"If so I call this at least partially a Honda design flaw, accompanied by service people error."
Hondas I4s have always had the oil filter near an exhaust pipe, but not the exhaust manifold. Like I said before, Honda I4s used to have the exhaust in front that would wrap around underneath the oil pan. Most of those Honda oil filters were directly above the exhaust pipe that went underneath the oil pan and oil drains all over the exhaust when you change oil filters. It has never been a problem, besides the car being a little stinky after oil changes.
"A filter gasket can occasionally get stuck to the machined engine block surface which if not noticed will just result in rapidly forming a puddle of oil on the ground on most vehicles."
Most vehicles? This can happen to ALL vehicles with a spin on oil filter.
True all vehicles will form a puddle, but it is just a puddle and not a fire. Of course, if the oil ignites, you wouldn't get a puddle but something much worse, like a flaming CRV.
-juice
I'll bet one of the reasons why Honda has the exhaust coming off the back of the engine now is because it allows for the catalyst to be placed closer to the exhaust manifold, allowing it to heat up quicker...for emissions.
Peek under your car and you'll find many more than you used to.
To reach a lower emissions status, you'll often see many heat shields that help warm up many catalysts.
Just as an example, the WRX has 3 catalysts, including one pre-cat very, very close to the engine that is shielded.
-juice
When you crawl underneath a CR-V and an Element, are they the same? Yeah, the Accord, TSX, etc. etc. might have the same engine, but I guarantee that their exhausts aren't set up exactly the same way as the CR-V. Which is why I'm wondering about the Element. I was under the impression that they were pretty much identical underneath the skin.
Honda says this is the technicians' faults and that it is going to send out a bulletin to dealers and quicky lubes. Presumably, the bulletin is going to tell them to be careful with the oil filter change. Make sure the old gasket comes off, make sure the baseplate is cleaned, make sure to lube the new gasket, etc. etc. Basically the same things you'd want to do when changing the oil on ANY car....only on the CR-V, a goofed oil change means you'll need to call 911 before you call the dealer, so be EXTRA careful. Uh huh. I hope that Jiffy Lube dude got a full nights sleep, otherwise it's fire marshall Bill time.
It's on my local paper's webpage now (Minneapolis Star Tribune).
From the article:
"Honda said a design flaw is not to blame, but it's still studying the cause of the fires."
Amazing. They are still studying the cause of the fires, but they KNOW, the just KNOW, that it's not a design flaw.
That's not Honda being obtuse. This is Honda being proactive, not reactive, in denying liability before the class-action and lemon law lawyers get to them.
I for one am not surprised that Honda is having more problems recently. Older Civics and Accords used to be bulletproof. I have seen a lot of newer Accords/Civics that have had rattles and squeaks. Now that is not a serious problem, but I think it's an indication that build quality is slipping as Honda tries to squeeze more profits due to greater competitive pressures.
They make the cleanest burning engines.
And they sell them at very reasonable prices.
It's quite obtuse to just say "Honda is cost cutting" when there are so many ways they are trying to improve the products they sell. There's much more evidence out there to show improvements in efficiency and safety than there is that quality is dropping.
Again 22 out of 140,000 hardly points to a design flaw. With the exhaust on the back of the engine there is less airflow and more heat. IF and I do mean IF any oil is getting to the catalytic converter, it will catch fire. Maybe they should install a guard to protect from messy oil change technicians. But if the fires are caused by inadequate oil change clean up or procedure, it's hardly the fault of Honda that the cars are catching fire.
-juice
Since they're still pretty new, I'm going to going to go out on a limb and suggest that the 27 *reported* 2003 and 2004 CR-Vs that have caught fire is the number of CR-Vs where someone has screwed up the oil change....so far.
"But if the fires are caused by inadequate oil change clean up or procedure, it's hardly the fault of Honda that the cars are catching fire."
So who's fault was it when Pintos burst into flames? The person who rear ended the Pinto, or the company that designed a car that would burst into flames easily when rear ended?
Oil changes are the most routine maintenance that you do on a car and people WILL screw them up, whether it be the dealer, a quicky lube, or a do-it-yourselfer.
If it is due to technician error, I ASSURE you, there will be more CR-V fires. Guaranteed.
I dunno, IMO, a bad oil change shouldn't mean the car goes up in flames.
The Pinto rear end SHOULD have been designed for rear end crashes.
If oil is spilled during an oil change it SHOULD be cleaned up. IF it's not, it's the fault of the oil change facility. The engine has an oil pan for oil, it doesn't belong on the exhaust system.
I guess the next step is to sue carmakers for not including side air bags in fatal t-bone accidents. Since they did know that they would go a long way in preventing deaths in such cases.
Oh wait...I guess Honda isn't being PROACTIVE in including them in all cars next year. No wait..that's cost cutting?!?!.
According to what I've read, the cause isn't oil spilled during the oil change that wasn't wiped up. If that were the case, I would've burnt down a few cars too when I used to change oil.
The cause is the technician doing a "double gasket" and oil hitting something REALLY hot, like the catalyst. Hey, I have an idea, lets put the oil filter near the catalyst. Better yet, lets put the fuel filter there too. If someone screws up the fuel filter, it ain't our fault!
It is more likely to happen after the first oil change, because they use gorillas at the factory to put on oil filters and the gaskets tend to stick more...but it can happen any time. Since it's caused by oil spray, this could happen with a faulty oil filter, an oil filter that isn't tight enough or too tight, or a dirty baseplate.
It's going to happen again.
It's not. Just as if they don't torque the lugs down and a wheel flies off. Or if they don't tighten the brake bleeder valve and you lose your brakes. Those accidents would have even more dire and unavoidable consequences.
As NHTSA rightly determined, the design is fine. If the filter is installed as DESIGNEd, there would be no fire. BUT if the tech makes a mistake and does it incorrectly, there will be a fire.
I guess we should blame GOD when a doctor leave a piece of gauze in a body during surgery. I mean GOD should have made it easier.
Come on, you have to design the oil change system so that the car doesn't become a torch after a common mistake.
Oh wait...I guess Honda isn't being PROACTIVE in including them in all cars next year. No wait..that's cost cutting?!?!.
It's a good move by Honda, but I actually think it'll save them money in the long run (due to no lawsuits for failing to put in a necessary safety feature), plus it's good marketing so Honda's getting a lot of benefits for doing this, which is fine by me.
Those things could happen to any car. The CR-V is unique in that it will start on fire if the oil change is screwed up. Other cars won't start on fire if the oil change is screwed up. Those other cars weren't designed in such a way where there is zero room for error with regards to the oil filter. Honda says "technician error", I say design flaw, because Honda will never be able to eliminate technican error. If the CR-V is the only vehicle with this unique oil filter location that results in an inferno because of a mistake, how could it not be a design flaw?
Obviously not, according to NHTSA. A mistake is a mistake. The consequences may be more dire here, but it's still a mistake. If an oil change facility doesn't want the liability, they have the right to refuse sevice to CR-V's. Otherwise they should do the job correctly. A design flaw wuold be if the cars were burning to the ground without outside assistance. Then I would be concerned. But checking the oil filter shouldn't be a big deal.
Like putting regular gas in a diesel. That happens. No fire but those engines are EXPENSIVE.
If common sense doesn't tell us to do this, surely we will be taught to do this on the first day of our oil changing career!
Well, a couple of "high profile" recalls don't change the fact that the major organizations that rate vehicle quality (JD Power and CR) consistently rate Honda at or near the top of all automakers in their class. The issue with the 6th gen Accord transmission hasn't changed that, and I doubt that these will either. A couple of design defects are hardly enough to brand all Hondas as "poorly designed vehicles".
The main reason that these 2 defects are so newsworthy is that Honda is NOT known for making poorly designed vehicles, so the defects are uncharacteristic of them. At any rate, a lot can change in a quarter century, and a lot HAS changed.
I will agree, though, that if this streak of recalls/design issues continues, their reputation may be at stake.
Anyway, I'm mostly talking out of my butt on this, and it's not on topic. Sorry.
How so? According to all the TV news reports I've been watching, NHTSA is warning Honda CR-V owners to be careful after oil changes. Sounds like the NHTSA is concerned to me.
A mistake is a mistake. The consequences may be more dire here, but it's still a mistake.
Give me a break. Everyone makes mistakes, including Honda, which is something you seem loath to admit.
It's not that difficult to spill oil on the manifold. With all the Honda CR-Vs out there, and with the number of oil changes they'll go through, it is statistically 100% certain that someone's going to screw up an oil change.
Should the driver of the CR-V be burned alive for that mistake?
Stop making excuses for Honda and wake up to the fact that they screwed up this design.
I'm not saying Honda is a bad company. Honda is still a great company, but they make mistakes.
If an oil change facility doesn't want the liability, they have the right to refuse sevice to CR-V's. Otherwise they should do the job correctly.
Your suggestion that the Jiffy Lubes just turn away CR-Vs and let their owners change their own oil is absolutely ridiculous. How many people actually want to change their own oil? Have you? Should Honda CR-V owners NOT have the option of using a Jiffy Lube.
Everyone loves to bash the Jiffy Lubes, but I'd bet that the Jiffy Lube guy will still make fewer mistakes in changing the CR-Vs oil than your average CR-V owner.
So your suggestion will lead to more CR-Vs being burned up, not less.
A design flaw wuold be if the cars were burning to the ground without outside assistance. Then I would be concerned. But checking the oil filter shouldn't be a big deal.
Again, sometimes people will forget to check. Have you never made a stupid mistake in your life? A car burning to the ground b/c someone forgot to check the oil filter is a BIG BIG deal, don't kid yourself.
Sounds like negligence to me. If your job is to check such things is to do so and you don't, you should get sued. At best you could toast an engine. At worst you could toast a person. Either case it was YOUR negligence that caused the damage.
But let's look at others any way just for giggles.
"How so? According to all the TV news reports I've been watching, NHTSA is warning Honda CR-V owners to be careful after oil changes. Sounds like the NHTSA is concerned to me."
http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/07/09/203061.html
According to the report, NHTSA and American Honda Motor Co. agreed that oil from the filters most likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting.
Looks like NHTSA agreed with Honda.
"Your suggestion that the Jiffy Lubes just turn away CR-Vs and let their owners change their own oil is absolutely ridiculous. How many people actually want to change their own oil? Have you? Should Honda CR-V owners NOT have the option of using a Jiffy Lube."
If Jiffy lube can't guarantee the work they do then they should not work on this car. It is squarely on the back of the employee whether the fires occur. They either guarantee the work or risk a huge lawsuit from negligence.
If a do it youselfer doesn't do the job correctly, the blame is still the same. He didn't properly change the oil. Just as if in any other car the engine siezes from improper maintenance. It ain't Honda's fault.
Yeah, that's what this country needs - more litigation and legislation to help protect us from our own stupidity...
"We are not doing Honda a great service here."
I'm not doing Honda any form of service. I'm not affiliated with the company, and I'm not an owner.
I just find it funny that with our ridiculous standard in our country for acceptance of responsibility, we run off screaming at Honda because 27 idiots don't know how to change oil properly. And that lady didn't know the coffee was hot, and the 400 lb guy didn't know that 3 Supersized Value Meals a day woulod make him fat.
Give me a break.
Let's talk about denial. DCC acts like they've never had a transmission problem. Same with Ford and the Taurus and Windstar. GM acts like not every one of their heater fan blower motor resistors fail, although they do. I see 80 GM cases a month, mostly for water leaks, major electrical problems, and transmission failures.
Ask yourself - which manufacturers are in denial for these problems? These are the same problems that GM, Ford and DCC have had for 25 years.
It ain't Hondas fault.
Here's how:
Honda *knows* there will be a certain # of vehicles where the oil filter's seal will fail for WHATEVER reason, including faulty oil filters or incompetence. It's a routine proceedure.
Why not put the oil filter somewhere where it won't set the car on fire if the seal fails?
This is why you will NEVER see a fuel filter near the catalytic converter. That would be an explosive situation if anything ever happened to the filter. At least they know that much.