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Comments
I don't see how it could be above the exhaust manifold since the exhaust manifold comes off the head and the oil filter is usually attached to the block. Of course, the head is ALWAYS above the block in an inline engine.
"If so I call this at least partially a Honda design flaw, accompanied by service people error."
Hondas I4s have always had the oil filter near an exhaust pipe, but not the exhaust manifold. Like I said before, Honda I4s used to have the exhaust in front that would wrap around underneath the oil pan. Most of those Honda oil filters were directly above the exhaust pipe that went underneath the oil pan and oil drains all over the exhaust when you change oil filters. It has never been a problem, besides the car being a little stinky after oil changes.
"A filter gasket can occasionally get stuck to the machined engine block surface which if not noticed will just result in rapidly forming a puddle of oil on the ground on most vehicles."
Most vehicles? This can happen to ALL vehicles with a spin on oil filter.
True all vehicles will form a puddle, but it is just a puddle and not a fire. Of course, if the oil ignites, you wouldn't get a puddle but something much worse, like a flaming CRV.
-juice
I'll bet one of the reasons why Honda has the exhaust coming off the back of the engine now is because it allows for the catalyst to be placed closer to the exhaust manifold, allowing it to heat up quicker...for emissions.
Peek under your car and you'll find many more than you used to.
To reach a lower emissions status, you'll often see many heat shields that help warm up many catalysts.
Just as an example, the WRX has 3 catalysts, including one pre-cat very, very close to the engine that is shielded.
-juice
When you crawl underneath a CR-V and an Element, are they the same? Yeah, the Accord, TSX, etc. etc. might have the same engine, but I guarantee that their exhausts aren't set up exactly the same way as the CR-V. Which is why I'm wondering about the Element. I was under the impression that they were pretty much identical underneath the skin.
Honda says this is the technicians' faults and that it is going to send out a bulletin to dealers and quicky lubes. Presumably, the bulletin is going to tell them to be careful with the oil filter change. Make sure the old gasket comes off, make sure the baseplate is cleaned, make sure to lube the new gasket, etc. etc. Basically the same things you'd want to do when changing the oil on ANY car....only on the CR-V, a goofed oil change means you'll need to call 911 before you call the dealer, so be EXTRA careful. Uh huh. I hope that Jiffy Lube dude got a full nights sleep, otherwise it's fire marshall Bill time.
It's on my local paper's webpage now (Minneapolis Star Tribune).
From the article:
"Honda said a design flaw is not to blame, but it's still studying the cause of the fires."
Amazing. They are still studying the cause of the fires, but they KNOW, the just KNOW, that it's not a design flaw.
That's not Honda being obtuse. This is Honda being proactive, not reactive, in denying liability before the class-action and lemon law lawyers get to them.
I for one am not surprised that Honda is having more problems recently. Older Civics and Accords used to be bulletproof. I have seen a lot of newer Accords/Civics that have had rattles and squeaks. Now that is not a serious problem, but I think it's an indication that build quality is slipping as Honda tries to squeeze more profits due to greater competitive pressures.
They make the cleanest burning engines.
And they sell them at very reasonable prices.
It's quite obtuse to just say "Honda is cost cutting" when there are so many ways they are trying to improve the products they sell. There's much more evidence out there to show improvements in efficiency and safety than there is that quality is dropping.
Again 22 out of 140,000 hardly points to a design flaw. With the exhaust on the back of the engine there is less airflow and more heat. IF and I do mean IF any oil is getting to the catalytic converter, it will catch fire. Maybe they should install a guard to protect from messy oil change technicians. But if the fires are caused by inadequate oil change clean up or procedure, it's hardly the fault of Honda that the cars are catching fire.
-juice
Since they're still pretty new, I'm going to going to go out on a limb and suggest that the 27 *reported* 2003 and 2004 CR-Vs that have caught fire is the number of CR-Vs where someone has screwed up the oil change....so far.
"But if the fires are caused by inadequate oil change clean up or procedure, it's hardly the fault of Honda that the cars are catching fire."
So who's fault was it when Pintos burst into flames? The person who rear ended the Pinto, or the company that designed a car that would burst into flames easily when rear ended?
Oil changes are the most routine maintenance that you do on a car and people WILL screw them up, whether it be the dealer, a quicky lube, or a do-it-yourselfer.
If it is due to technician error, I ASSURE you, there will be more CR-V fires. Guaranteed.
I dunno, IMO, a bad oil change shouldn't mean the car goes up in flames.
The Pinto rear end SHOULD have been designed for rear end crashes.
If oil is spilled during an oil change it SHOULD be cleaned up. IF it's not, it's the fault of the oil change facility. The engine has an oil pan for oil, it doesn't belong on the exhaust system.
I guess the next step is to sue carmakers for not including side air bags in fatal t-bone accidents. Since they did know that they would go a long way in preventing deaths in such cases.
Oh wait...I guess Honda isn't being PROACTIVE in including them in all cars next year. No wait..that's cost cutting?!?!.
According to what I've read, the cause isn't oil spilled during the oil change that wasn't wiped up. If that were the case, I would've burnt down a few cars too when I used to change oil.
The cause is the technician doing a "double gasket" and oil hitting something REALLY hot, like the catalyst. Hey, I have an idea, lets put the oil filter near the catalyst. Better yet, lets put the fuel filter there too. If someone screws up the fuel filter, it ain't our fault!
It is more likely to happen after the first oil change, because they use gorillas at the factory to put on oil filters and the gaskets tend to stick more...but it can happen any time. Since it's caused by oil spray, this could happen with a faulty oil filter, an oil filter that isn't tight enough or too tight, or a dirty baseplate.
It's going to happen again.
It's not. Just as if they don't torque the lugs down and a wheel flies off. Or if they don't tighten the brake bleeder valve and you lose your brakes. Those accidents would have even more dire and unavoidable consequences.
As NHTSA rightly determined, the design is fine. If the filter is installed as DESIGNEd, there would be no fire. BUT if the tech makes a mistake and does it incorrectly, there will be a fire.
I guess we should blame GOD when a doctor leave a piece of gauze in a body during surgery. I mean GOD should have made it easier.
Come on, you have to design the oil change system so that the car doesn't become a torch after a common mistake.
Oh wait...I guess Honda isn't being PROACTIVE in including them in all cars next year. No wait..that's cost cutting?!?!.
It's a good move by Honda, but I actually think it'll save them money in the long run (due to no lawsuits for failing to put in a necessary safety feature), plus it's good marketing so Honda's getting a lot of benefits for doing this, which is fine by me.
Those things could happen to any car. The CR-V is unique in that it will start on fire if the oil change is screwed up. Other cars won't start on fire if the oil change is screwed up. Those other cars weren't designed in such a way where there is zero room for error with regards to the oil filter. Honda says "technician error", I say design flaw, because Honda will never be able to eliminate technican error. If the CR-V is the only vehicle with this unique oil filter location that results in an inferno because of a mistake, how could it not be a design flaw?
Obviously not, according to NHTSA. A mistake is a mistake. The consequences may be more dire here, but it's still a mistake. If an oil change facility doesn't want the liability, they have the right to refuse sevice to CR-V's. Otherwise they should do the job correctly. A design flaw wuold be if the cars were burning to the ground without outside assistance. Then I would be concerned. But checking the oil filter shouldn't be a big deal.
Like putting regular gas in a diesel. That happens. No fire but those engines are EXPENSIVE.
If common sense doesn't tell us to do this, surely we will be taught to do this on the first day of our oil changing career!
Well, a couple of "high profile" recalls don't change the fact that the major organizations that rate vehicle quality (JD Power and CR) consistently rate Honda at or near the top of all automakers in their class. The issue with the 6th gen Accord transmission hasn't changed that, and I doubt that these will either. A couple of design defects are hardly enough to brand all Hondas as "poorly designed vehicles".
The main reason that these 2 defects are so newsworthy is that Honda is NOT known for making poorly designed vehicles, so the defects are uncharacteristic of them. At any rate, a lot can change in a quarter century, and a lot HAS changed.
I will agree, though, that if this streak of recalls/design issues continues, their reputation may be at stake.
Anyway, I'm mostly talking out of my butt on this, and it's not on topic. Sorry.
How so? According to all the TV news reports I've been watching, NHTSA is warning Honda CR-V owners to be careful after oil changes. Sounds like the NHTSA is concerned to me.
A mistake is a mistake. The consequences may be more dire here, but it's still a mistake.
Give me a break. Everyone makes mistakes, including Honda, which is something you seem loath to admit.
It's not that difficult to spill oil on the manifold. With all the Honda CR-Vs out there, and with the number of oil changes they'll go through, it is statistically 100% certain that someone's going to screw up an oil change.
Should the driver of the CR-V be burned alive for that mistake?
Stop making excuses for Honda and wake up to the fact that they screwed up this design.
I'm not saying Honda is a bad company. Honda is still a great company, but they make mistakes.
If an oil change facility doesn't want the liability, they have the right to refuse sevice to CR-V's. Otherwise they should do the job correctly.
Your suggestion that the Jiffy Lubes just turn away CR-Vs and let their owners change their own oil is absolutely ridiculous. How many people actually want to change their own oil? Have you? Should Honda CR-V owners NOT have the option of using a Jiffy Lube.
Everyone loves to bash the Jiffy Lubes, but I'd bet that the Jiffy Lube guy will still make fewer mistakes in changing the CR-Vs oil than your average CR-V owner.
So your suggestion will lead to more CR-Vs being burned up, not less.
A design flaw wuold be if the cars were burning to the ground without outside assistance. Then I would be concerned. But checking the oil filter shouldn't be a big deal.
Again, sometimes people will forget to check. Have you never made a stupid mistake in your life? A car burning to the ground b/c someone forgot to check the oil filter is a BIG BIG deal, don't kid yourself.
Sounds like negligence to me. If your job is to check such things is to do so and you don't, you should get sued. At best you could toast an engine. At worst you could toast a person. Either case it was YOUR negligence that caused the damage.
But let's look at others any way just for giggles.
"How so? According to all the TV news reports I've been watching, NHTSA is warning Honda CR-V owners to be careful after oil changes. Sounds like the NHTSA is concerned to me."
http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/07/09/203061.html
According to the report, NHTSA and American Honda Motor Co. agreed that oil from the filters most likely leaked onto the vehicles' hot exhaust systems, quickly igniting.
Looks like NHTSA agreed with Honda.
"Your suggestion that the Jiffy Lubes just turn away CR-Vs and let their owners change their own oil is absolutely ridiculous. How many people actually want to change their own oil? Have you? Should Honda CR-V owners NOT have the option of using a Jiffy Lube."
If Jiffy lube can't guarantee the work they do then they should not work on this car. It is squarely on the back of the employee whether the fires occur. They either guarantee the work or risk a huge lawsuit from negligence.
If a do it youselfer doesn't do the job correctly, the blame is still the same. He didn't properly change the oil. Just as if in any other car the engine siezes from improper maintenance. It ain't Honda's fault.
Yeah, that's what this country needs - more litigation and legislation to help protect us from our own stupidity...
"We are not doing Honda a great service here."
I'm not doing Honda any form of service. I'm not affiliated with the company, and I'm not an owner.
I just find it funny that with our ridiculous standard in our country for acceptance of responsibility, we run off screaming at Honda because 27 idiots don't know how to change oil properly. And that lady didn't know the coffee was hot, and the 400 lb guy didn't know that 3 Supersized Value Meals a day woulod make him fat.
Give me a break.
Let's talk about denial. DCC acts like they've never had a transmission problem. Same with Ford and the Taurus and Windstar. GM acts like not every one of their heater fan blower motor resistors fail, although they do. I see 80 GM cases a month, mostly for water leaks, major electrical problems, and transmission failures.
Ask yourself - which manufacturers are in denial for these problems? These are the same problems that GM, Ford and DCC have had for 25 years.
It ain't Hondas fault.
Here's how:
Honda *knows* there will be a certain # of vehicles where the oil filter's seal will fail for WHATEVER reason, including faulty oil filters or incompetence. It's a routine proceedure.
Why not put the oil filter somewhere where it won't set the car on fire if the seal fails?
This is why you will NEVER see a fuel filter near the catalytic converter. That would be an explosive situation if anything ever happened to the filter. At least they know that much.