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Audi RS4
Any ideas of the approx US price of the upcoming RS4?
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I don't know if you've seen this article:
http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publish/Audi_News/article_1070.shtml
http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/audia4chat040605.html
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Turn off the Caps Lock, OK?
I feel like I'm reading a Fox News (oxymoron) breaking headline!
1. Pricing. Audi does not have the cache to command premium pricing in the USA. If they want to beat the M3. They have to have a car that performs better in all categories AND cost less. Is this fair, no, does Audi put a lot more in their cars than BMW, yes. Should they be able to charge more, yes. But the reality is that BMW can command premium pricing...Audi cannot. Audi will not catch up to BMW until it can solve this issue. I think they cannot unless they move production out of Europe.
2. Front Wheel Drive. Audis are FWD based cars with RWD added. The weight balance (and over all weight for that matter) on BMWs is far superior to Audi. Audi has said they will never have RWD-based vehicles. Any serious sport sedan buyer will insist on a vehicle that doesn't have 60% plus of the weight on the front wheels.
3. Reliability. Audis are so complicated, they are extremely unreliable and are terrible as long term cars. I asked my mechanic who's parts cost more and he said Audi and VW are far more expensive than BMW. Sure if you go to a dealer, BMW parts are expensive, but go to a reasonable mechanic who works on Audis and BMWs and you will see the Audi parts cost a lot more.
I really hope Audi can figure it out and learn to compete with BMW, however, until they solve these issues, I think they will continue to get beat by BMW/Mercedes/Lexus.
First off...Audi has made an incredible comeback in the US over the last 5-7 years. In Europe, It's AUDI who is considered the premium brand and in some segments, Audi Outsells BMW and Mercedes combined.
Audi is thousands...sometimes 10's of thousands.... less than BMW and Mercedes high line cars.
The Bangle editions of the 5 and 7 series have been a small disaster in the states. BMW is tarnishing it's image by having to literally give away their 5 series cars with sub-vented leases because they can't command the premium pricing they once could. They don't have the prestige they once had.
And E class pricing is absurd. $65,000 for a 4 matic V6 E class? Gimme a break!. I can buy a 340hp V8 A6 quattro loaded with every option for under 60 grand. And the reliability of Mercedes over the last 5 years has been horrible. Mercedes WON"T even pay for maintenance anymore.
You can't compare most AWD systems w. Quattro. Audi's Quattro is a pro-active system. It's a true 50/50 power split with all 4 wheels getting power. It can put up to 70% of the power towards one specific wheel.
Many AWD systems on the market are not as pro-active as the Quattro. They are bascially rear or front wheel drive cars, with the other wheels getting power only when the others are slipping. It's not pro-active like quattro, but reactive instead.
Please do some more research on your claims. You make general statements, but when you look at real numbers and facts, they don't make sense.
Audi has one of the best line-ups of any high-line car company right now.
The new A3, A4, A6 & A8 are as stong as any high-line brand right now.
The RS4 is on the way and people are already putting deposits down on cars that won't even be out for a year. AUDI will sell every last one of them at 70 plus grand, and there WON'T be enough to go around.
Audi has the best-looking wagons in the business and the new Avants are on the way. The Q7 is coming, too, and it looks awesome.
It's great to be Audi right now!
As a brand? I don't think so. In any one segment? Not. That research you spoke of is seriously in order here. While Audi does enjoy premium brand status in Europe so does BMW and of course Mercedes does.
Also, Audi's reliability is nothing, nothing to write home about. Some improvement in one 90 day survey doesn't say much about long term reliability and Audi is in the same boat as Mercedes.
M
I wouldn't doubt if the M5 came in about 90 grand or so. A 15k difference is pretty substantial to the RS4 in the low 70's.... if that's the case.
People were complaining about the high prices for the RS6 @ 85 grand back in 2003 and were afraid they would lose their shirt if they bought one.
But the market value of a used RS6 right now is still about 65k for a nice one with low mileage. I've even seen dealers on the net ask $70,000 for a used RS6's.
I think that speaks very highly of Audi to have that high of a resale on the RS6.
I think that is a little strong. I'll defer to the experts on pricing. Edmunds itself in several reviews comments on the high pricing of Audi's in the high end. I'm talking about the RS4, RS6, A8, not the A4 or A3.
In my opinion, RS4 sales (funny how if you hold the caps lock down it becomes RS$) will get spanked by the M3 just as the RS6 (didn't they stop selling that one in the US...hmmmm) will get spanked by the M5. Let''s just wait and see ;-)
I really could care less how Audi's sell in Europe. In America, reliability is terrible, parts are rediculously expensive and Audi does not have the cache of BMW or Mercedes. BTW: I totally agree with you on Mercedes...beautiful junk!
I've known several Audi (and VW) owners and the response is always the same. When the car is new and hasn't broken yet, they love it. When it is old and out of warrantee, they hate it. One of my neighbors got rid of his Allroad because it kept breaking and even though it was being fixed for free under warrantee, the inconvience it caused was too much.
A few more points. Audi Quattro: Wonderful system, probably the best. In California or out of the snow belt people could care less. Oh and it also weights so much that the gas mileage is terrible. Isn't it interesting that the Audi USA site no longer shows the window sticker for the S4 when you configure it? Maybe they don't want you to see the $3000+ gas guzzler tax? Or maybe I'm just paranoid ;-)
In my opinion, Audi will win the US just like VW will beat out Honda and Toyota (or maybe everyone will stop buying the Lexus LS430 and start buying the Pheaton for more money). It could happen, but I doubt it.
The guzzler tax is $1300 for the auto, and $1700 for the manual, if I remember correctly.
And yeah, you are paranoid!
Now that's not really expensive .... I mean what else do I have ? The M5 selling for 95... if you want it with the same configuration as the RS4. (it has lots of stuff already in it.)
The new M3 ... when ever it comes. (I'm sure it will cost around 65-70 cause the model right now already costs 60.... way to much for that kind of car...)
Another point is, that I would never buy such a ugly car like the BMW 5 or 3....
So that I think the RS4 will sell fantastic in Germany.
To the reliability I can say that the last two years audi was better than BMW and Mecedes here.
Chris
(I'm not only an Audi fan .. I have an Mercedes G55 AMG and had an BMW ... but right now Audi is way ahaed)
P.S. The RS4 has 40%/60% on his back wheels. So it's going to be fantastic.
in new york u can not drive an m3 all year rou8nd however an rs4 with its insane handiling and awd is great for the snow, so the m3 isnt really an option at all..
not to mention the natrully aspirate 420 h.p v'8 wait untill i twin turbo that hmmm....500 h.p. 525 lb tq. caint wait...
M
Figure on 75-78 for the RS4. An RS4 cab would indeed be nice!
here is a link for the article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=9642
The RS4 is reported to have 414 hp. The S4 has 340.
In response to your staetment on adding a twin turbo, you will be hard pressed to pull that one off. The engine's compression is up around 14. You'd have to de-tune it to add turbo or to supercharge it, if I'm not mistaken. Quite a task for ANY aftermarket tuner.
First of all, the sport seats are great and hold you tightly. My back was tired after walking around the displays, and the firmness of the seats really feels good.
I have never sat in Audi cars before today, so I must agree that materials quality is just as good as the reviews describe it. I sat in the A3, A4, S4, A6 and A8 and all had superb materials. Everything in the RS4 feels soft and well built.
The steering wheel has a flat bottom and looks and feels great. Very thick and it feels great when you grip it tightly.
The shifter is amazing. Short throw and feels great in your palm. It is covered in carbon fiber trim, which by the way covers everything else and looks great.
The stereo and climate controls buttons feel great but look more complicated than the Japanese cars I sat in earlier. But then, all German cars seem that way.
And the rear seat is nearly useless. Im 5"11 and couldnt really fit. The driver's seat wasn't even pushed back. The rear seat shouldnt be used, or if it is, only for small kids and cargo. An RS4 coupe would be neat.
Finding a comfortable driving position was no problem for me.
I'll post pictures soon.
As for the RS4, I would love to own one but there are 3 major issues that will keep it from happening.
1) The price is in Porsche territory and you might as well just get a Porsche if all you're looking for is a fast car that's not for every day use.
2) It's not an every day car. The terrible gas mileage will translate to something in the neighborhood of a $4,000 gas guzzler tax. EPA tests say the RS4 gets 10/20 mpg, but in reality that translates to more like 8/18 which is right down there with the vehicle only a true jackass would drive- a Hummer. It's not the type of car you would want to park in a grocery store lot, though it is more subtle than a bourgeois "look at me" Mercedes or BMW.
3) Reviews concerning road tests say that the overall ride leaves something to be desired, especially at high speed.
Please, the new Cayman will be about 70 grand decently equipped. It's very easy to spend 100-110k on a 911, and your talking 120k to get 400hp and AWD out of Porsche.
Car magazines test pre-production versions that will undoubedtly be tweaked before final production.
The 4.2 V8 on the RS4 will have direct injection, which helps in fuel economy as on the A4's and A6's.
I'll ask the dealer about the price as I'm still planning to buy a '06 S4 later this month, and if they say that the RS4 will only be about 10-12K more you bet I'll sign up for one right then and there. If they tell me something like 80K FIRM though I'll wince for sure and it will be a real tough decision.
As far as the gas mileage, I guess that if I can spring for a car like the RS4, money for gas is a non issue anyway.
If someone here gets quoted a legitimate MSRP for the '06 RS4 please let me know. So far all I have heard are guesstimates.
But finally and surely said,,, I would rather have An RS4 over An M3 anyday... another thing... The RS4 should not be compared to a regular M3... That would be the S4
But for the RS4.. It goes in Class with M3 CSL... And I think i would still take the Audi since I know it has far more advance Technology and A 4.2 engine... :P... So BMW will have to be in my rear view for the time being...
NJOY
(( IF ANYONE KNOW IF THE OPTION OF THE REAR WINDOWS CAN BE UPGRADED TO AUTOMATIC. PLEASE LET ME KNOW.. AND YES THE PRICE IS AS ACURATE AS BEING IN THE AUDI DEALER SHIP IN GERMANY ))
There won't be many options, probably just the navigation and a few others. So 75-78 grand seems right for the RS4.
I'm disappointed that US RS4 won't have the cool-looking flat bottom steering wheel. Black is the only color choice for the interior from what I hear.
69,000 Euros = 81,300 US Dollars
1) Think really carefully before you buy a black car. I know, everyone has heard this before, but they really are a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] to keep clean. They do look good when they're clean, but I think this will be my last black car.
2) Why anyone would ever want an automatic S4 is beyond me. You NEED to have full control of a car like that unless you don't like driving over 70mph. If that's the case though, why buy an S4.
The up-coming S6/S8 will be automatic only in the states.
That REALLY sucks. High performance cars with automatic trannys are a sick joke.
I have owned an M3 for 4 years and had lots of problems with fit and finish. I hear Audi does a much better job with quality of interior finishes. Plus the M3 sounds like a tin can. The 420 8cyl. in the rs4 should solve that problem!
Can't wait to drive the rs4!
Psyched!
This car is the A8/A8L. Although it has a horsepower disadvantage next to the 750, it is still a significantly more luxurious, light, technologically advanced*, and timeless automobile. It is also a quicker car because of its aluminum space frame- it weighs roughly 400 pounds less than a 750i/li. The A8 costs $68K, while the 750i costs $71K. The A8L costs $71K, and the 750li is $74,000. Although not significant for this class, it is a nice difference in cost.
Audi will be introducing the RS4 Avant, of course, AND the new RS4 CABRIOLET, to the U.S! The Cabriolet should start in the high-70s, and the Avant in the mid-70s. Both new models have the sedan's engine, with the updated front and rear fascias on the Cabriolet. They all have the new 19" rims, and the Cabriolet has a five-second reduction on the soft-top operation compared to my '05 S4 Cabriolet.
I was drooling... maybe I can get a used one in 3 years!
Could you tell me where you got this info. I'd really like to order an rs4 cab as soon as possible. thanks
The Cabriolet especially is a bargain next to the CLK55 AMG Convertible, which is $82,000, and not as fast.