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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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It is a safe car, and may be reliable as well. You get a Volvo on the cheap. Alas, Ford may be killing Volvo in the process. I hope they are not using gas company advertising on the gas caps like on the Fords now. Oh my!
-Loren
-Loren
-Loren
Why do several of you praise Honda and Toyota for keeping the Camry and Accord names around for 25+ years yet deride Ford for trying to keep the Taurus name which has been around 20 years and despite the recent rental queen status still has tremendous owner loyalty and name recognition? Five Hundred simply wasn't catching on. I've heard first hand reports of people who heard the Taurus was coming back and can't wait to buy one - yet had never heard of the Five Hundred.
The new Taurus (In my head I think of it as Taurus, the Sequel) will succeed or fail more on the basis of the merits of the machine instead of the moniker. My $.02.
The Fairlane 500, in a rear wheel drive car, would be nice. Share the sales floor with the Mustang. Those were the days my friend.
-Loren
Have you seen the new Malibu in person? It is gorgeous. I'm not saying it's going to wipe the floor with Accords or Camry's, but it is definitely going to be a big hit. I would also agree with you on any other Ford model (i.e. a focus vs. a civic), but I think the fusion has some great potential as a model and is a worthy buy as long as you get it for 1-2 thousand less than the accord.
Go ask 100 people randomly at the mall and they'll all know the Taurus name (and most will remember it fondly) whereas almost nobody will remember a Galaxie 500.
That would be a good thing - but the new product pipeline for cars is pretty empty. There is no totally all-new models planned for production - revised Fusion, revised Five Hundred/Taurus, revised Focus still stuck on the same old platform. All the new regime seems to have come us so far is to change nameplates (but that's merely badge engineering).
Instead of engineering more sensible yet exciting cars they bet the farm on crossovers like the Edge and Freestyle.
These changes at Ford regarding platform sharing/development did not happen until Mulally took the helm a few months ago. Apparently the previous CEOs allowed Europe and Australia and North America to operate as independent entities. Not any more. But you won't see that for 2-3 more years.
Ford doesn't need all new platforms (with the exception of a new full size RWD platform) - they just need better product planning and engineering. Put the 3.5L drivetrain in the Fusion with a more expensive center stack, stability control and a few other touch ups and you're there.
It has great usability, very easy to read displays, very simple controls, and a ride height that affords a better view of the road. Better still, that ride height translates to a higher seat height, meaning easier ingress/egress for older folks that may have issues with their back or reduced mobility of joints.
As far as it getting renamed the Taurus, middle America likes the Taurus, it always sold in solid volumes, it doesn't have the negative connotation that people on here seem to attach to it.
What they should've used the Ford 500 name on is a Crown Vic with the police pkg for civilian consumption (it worked with the shamu style Impala SS)
And please let the Euro designers do the styling - the 2008 Focus is a thing of ugly. The new 2007 Mondeo is a thing of beauty. And how about bringing the 5-door to the US?
I think some of the frustration is that they market the car before its done and polished. Its the feeling that its 90% there and that is now good enough. I think Ford and GM are changing to better align themselves with the market and consumer expectation, but its frustrating to wait. The Fusion is a great platform, like I said, 90-95% there, and then gets beat up for having something that doesn't feel right that would require very little effort to correct (center stack, NVH,etc).
But here we have people saying a Ford would have to be $5000 less than Honda for them to consider it...of course, if it actually were $5000 less they would say there must be something wrong with it for them to sell at at that low price.
6 sales are down, but total units sold by Mazda were up 4% in 2006 and 6% in January.
I guess you should only consider a Camry. Since they sell 400,000 of them a year without big discounts, it must be the best car for everyone. Honda is no where near those sales levels, so it must not be as good a car as the Camry.
-Loren
I was not aware of that, not having really shopped for a V6. I was only responding to the post where someone said the Fusion was not comparable because it lacked traction control.
In the 4 cyl models the Fusion SE and Accord SE and Mazda 6 value are about as close as you can get in equipment levels, IMO. As I pointed out I did in fact pay $3300 than I believe an Accord would have gone for when I bought my Mazda6. Not that the price was the primary reason for my choice...it was just a bonus that such good deals were availble on the car I liked the best .
-Loren
Honda and Toyota do the same thing. Ever heard of the TSX, Yaris or Fit? They bring over cars from other markets to save money just like GM is doing now. Thats what global companies do. BTW, the Astra and G8 are likely to be made in America within the next few years.
Toyota and Honda's increased commitment to the US is great, but it doesnt make them equal to what the Big 2.5 do in terms of employment and investment. Most Toyota ads bragging about their employment levels here include dealers which isnt fair since those are not Toyota employees. If you want to get into indirect employment and dealership employment the US automakers would be able to inflate their employment stats just like Toyota.
What are you talking about? What about options? You keep saying the Aura should be priced thousands less than it is but you dont account for options. If you think an XR with moonroof, leather, heated seats, remote start, CD changer, Xm radio, 240W sound system, etc. should be under $24k than you arent being realistic. Why would it cost under $24k when a camry SE with a few options will run you close to 30 grand? A loaded Aura is only about $27k and thats only if you get the panoramic roof, if you skip that its like $26,400. In a world when family sedans easily hit $30k that is hardly overpriced. I am aware of the Aura's sales, but those sales cant be due to poor reviews of the car because the press' reaction has been very positive. I think it's because people who drive imports arent going to give the car a chance in many cases even if it offere compelling value. Saturn gives you a $2k-$3k advantage and people like you are saying you need a $5k advantage. GM does have to at least TRY to make some money on these cars you know. There is NOTHING "premium" about an Accord or Altima that would make be think those cars are worth $5k more than an Aura.
I just looked at that Intellichoice website that you refered to and it is worthless. For the Fusion, they neglect the $1000 rebate and for Mazda6 they neglect $2000 rebates. Then they assume an interest rate of 5.3% for 5 years, when the market rate is more like 7.5%. This means the Accord buyer would pay 7.5%, while the fusion buyer could get discounted rate of 4.9% (or an even better deal of 2.9% on a 3 year loan).
In addition they somehow come up with maintenance costs that are almost 50% higher than Honda on the Ford or Mazda. I find that hard to believe.
And, hey, what's with all the dissing of Mazda, when your ID is m1miata.
To be premium you need to offer better than average features, a better warranty and/or a premium price. The Accord doesnt do any of those things.
The new Malibu and the Aura are just as "premium" as any Accord. When the Accord is down on features, hp, tranny gears and styling compared to its newer competitors I fail to see why it's a premium offering. You must be joking if you think the '08 Malibu should come in $5k cheaper than an Accord. What are you basing this on? The car looks good inside and out and has a great powertrain. $20k-$28k is very appropriate for the new Malibu.
"However, I do think Saturn has the potential to become the equal of Honda and VW. However, Saturn is not quite there yet. "
Check out the Outlook, I think it has more of a right to be considered premium than the Pilot. It's styling, pricing and features list are on a higher level than the Pilot.
It should have been C1 since the C1 debuted, but that's water under the bridge. The new Focus project was well under way even before Fields took over as was the Edge and MKX.
As for the EUCD vs. CD3 - I'm not sure which is the better PLATFORM. I certainly like the Mondeo styling. The point is to build both cars off the same platform with as much sharing as is feasible. But again, that will take some time.
Give a few flips of the blinker stalk, push some buttons, and turn some knobs. The interior of the Honda Accord, at least to me, felt better built, higher quality, and more solid. The Saturn LOOKED good, but didn't have the tactile quality of the Honda. If you can't tell a difference, then go with the qualities of the car that appeal to you most, and buy from there.
The car looks good inside and out and has a great powertrain. $20k-$28k is very appropriate for the new Malibu.
I'm sorry, but someone paying close to $30k for a nameplate with the record the Malibu has for reliability and resale in the last ten years (reliability has been marginally better lately, but resale is pathetic) must have lots of money to give away. Wait a year or two and get that $28k Malibu for $22k when rebate time rolls around.
I agree - see the previous post about building to a price point. With the Koreans now firmly entrenched and the Chinese just around the corner Ford can no longer afford to sell vehicles based on price. Put another $2K in each vehicle and go head to head with the competition. They've done the same thing with the new Escape - retaining the old 4 speed tranny. The test will be what comes out for the 2009 model year. That should be enough time to make drastic changes in the models and platforms.
And I would submit that those people would never buy a Ford in the first place. For some reason people have an irrational hatred of Ford and all things domestic (or all things not Camcord) so they exaggerate the shortcomings.
California isn't even on the same planet, let alone the same country.
It should have been C1 since the C1 debuted, but that's water under the bridge. The new Focus project was well under way even before Fields took over as was the Edge and MKX.
The Focus wasn't a C1 because the US doesn't want a $20,000 Focus (thats not bashing, they don't seem excited abotu $20,000 Civics either).
b) GM has cut rebates and its apparent you are basing your statements on GM's incentives from 2 years ago
c) The Aura's switchgear (and other recent GM cars) is very solid and precise. Huge difference from GM sedans of 5+ years ago. The new GM climate controls found on many of their vehicles have been praised for their feel. It's not that I am incapable of telling the difference, it's that there is no difference. Even so, I'm not paying $5k to have a better wiper stalk.
d)The new Malibu is much better than the current car so while the name may be the same, the car is not.
e) resale value was affected by fleet sales and perceived quality which is why GM has cut fleet sales and boosted warranty. Residuals on recent GM entries have been respectable and much better than last gen GM models.
It does, just like the almost new Rav4 has on its four cylinder model. I agree that the Escape needs a better powertrain but lets not act like they are the only ones using 4 speeds. I believe the Tuscon and Sante Fe also have four speeds standard.
BTW, do Ford haters hate the Mazda6? Just wondering since they are the same underneath the sheetmetal.
They will now that you pointed it out......
I'm currently "trying out" a 4*4 and loving it. It's old, but it's still a blast to drive.
I think a lot of people bought that car after the Contour SE/SVT. It is about the sportiest mid-size available at the price-point.
hate would be a strong word, but I at least disrespect Ford's latest business practices (putting many Americans out of work), building things in Mexico instead of working out whatever problems they could with their US labor forces,
The Mazda6 is made in Flat Rock, Michigan by UAW members.
Amended sentence:
Since their Toyota didnt break down a lot and my Ford did they wont look at anything else.
Do you have any plans to test drive the Aura 3.6 "High Feature" V6 Aura XR ????
Rocky
Pretty vague as to how the Aura is "better". How?
I agree, resale is where the "imports" have it now over the "domestic" brands. Reliability/quality/fit/finish are all on par across the board in about all makes/models. I feel over the next 5-7 years however this is going to fade away. Consumers are going to get smarter and start to ask "Why am I paying so much more for what advantage"? In fact its already started, get out on the net and visit other chat rooms. Tick, Tick, Tick... time it will only take time. Can't blame Toyota/Honda for trying to capitalize on their PAST reputation. It only makes good marketing sense. Personally, I won't pay the extra $$ for a perceived quality/reliability advantage.
Another thought, some of today's generation would never be caught dead in a vehicle that "dad or grandpa" had. They have to have something new and different, regardless.
van
Once again, image. Your willingness to pay for perceived "premium" vehicle is your choice. In my book the Fusion/Milan are on par with the Accord.
Maybe we could ask if the transmissions don't shift right, have flares, and along delays before accelerating? How about if the car has lots of plastic squeaks and rattles reported by owners in discussions? Is that reason to never buy that car again? How about if the company is unresponsive to the owners with these problems and has dealers telliing them they need to just adapt to their car or it's their fault for not driving the car right?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,